CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 13 - Movepool Submissions

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ZhengTann

Nargacuga
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#51
Okay, entirely aesthetic feedback time:

...
ZhengTann: Again, 20 moves is somewhat more than the usual number for level-up moves. Also, you ought to include a list of egg move illegalities. Also, I'm not entirely sure where you are getting your ingame tutors from - the Pt and HGSS Tutors don't exist in BW, after all.
...
Yep, thank you very much. Tried squeezing, but I think unless I removed Mud Slap and Mud Shot off the level-up list (which will require much persuading), I'm happy with it. There exist precedents (to quote capefeather) about longer level-up lists in BW Pokemons in-game, so I'm okay with it. The tutors' part is quite a head-spinner - I had to bloat my egg moves' list just to incorporate the changes, but the shuffling is done. I'll put in a hidebox regarding breeding illegalities soon - it won't be too hard, as I think yours and Banryu's are good starting points for me.

EDIT: Maybe I can remove Flame Charge and Poison Jab from the level-up list. After all, TMs are available competitive-wise, and it seems to be stretching it a little too far for Mollux to learn those moves naturally. I'll work on it, after a night's sleep
 
#52
Did some changes to my movepool you can see here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4264555&postcount=23

Removed Moves:
-Thunderwave (since it has already Toxic, Toxic Spikes and Will-O-Wisp)
-Coil (it has already Stockpile to increase its Def and it doesn't really need the +Acc of Coil)
-Pain Split (Recover and Rest remain)
-Psych Up (see below)
-Wring Out (needed some space in the level-up movepool)
New: -Growth (Calm Mind and Charge Beam are enough)

Added Moves:
-Rapid Spin (Mollux is a very nice Spinner. Its Stealth Rock damage is healed in one turn, so it has nearly unlimited switch-ins and can abuse its pivot capabilities most beneficial.)
-Sleep Talk (Sleep Talk seems to be a good option for Mollux. You will see this in my sample movesets below)
-Power Swap (Replacement for Psych Up - enables Mollux to push its Overheat Special Attack drop onto its opponent)
-Magic Coat (Allows Mollux to be a reasonable lead - bouncing Taunt and Stealth Rock)
New: -Disable (to stop Choice item users)

Example movesets:
Support / Lead
Mollux @ Balloon/Leftovers
Trait: Dry Skin/Illuminate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Magic Coat/Will-O-Wisp
- Rapid Spin/Will-O-Wisp/Toxic Spikes/Disable
- Light Screen/Safeguard
- Memento/Final Gambit/Recycle/Knock-off

It's your Choice

Mollux @ Choice Specs
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Hidden Power {Ground}
- Thunder
- Water Pulse
- Sludge Wave

Balanced
Mollux @ Leftovers
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 212 HP / 252 SAtk / 44 SDef
Calm Nature
- Overheat
- Power Swap
- Substitute/Recover
- Water Pulse/Hidden Power {Grass}

Rainstall Trapper
Mollux @ Leftovers
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 212 HP / 172 Def / 124 SDef
Calm Nature
- Toxic
- Whirlpool
- Venoshock
- Substitute/Protect

Sun Booster
Mollux @ Lum Berry/Leftovers
Trait: Illuminate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpAtk / 128 Spd
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Flame Charge
- Solar Beam/Hidden Power {Ground}

Sleep Talk
Mollux @ Leftovers
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 SDef
Bold Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Charge Beam
- Sludge Wave
 

Nyktos

Custom Loser Title
#55
nobody will be using fire spin or stockpile anyways so thats not a problem and i think you can make an argument for morning sun being a better level-up move too in terms of flavor. it definitely says "fire type" more than recover does. it also goes with mollux having illuminate as an ability with the morning sun being a source of illumination.
I'm well aware Fire Spin and Stockpile won't be top-tier competitive moves whether or not they're legal with Recover, but they're interesting fringe options that I don't want to punish people for trying out. Gastropods getting Recover by level-up is well-established: Slugma/Magcargo, Shellos/Gastrodon, and Shelmet/Accelgor all do.

That being said, it's clear that people really don't like the idea of Synthesis, so I will explore other means of giving it Morning Sun / Moonlight. Maybe having both that and Recover as level-up moves is not terrible if the distance between them is enough?
 
#56
Here's my idea for Mollux's movepool.
As you will see, i tried to integrate various flavour elements and tools for diverse gameplay options (a particular focus on sun Mollux), while keeping the movepool as clear and comprehensible as possible.
I hope you don't let the long text and unpracticed tongue of a foreign speaker discourage you :D


Total: 35/65 VGA
(2 Repeats + 1 Pair of equivalents)


Level-Up: 8/16 VGA
--- Growth
--- Constrict
05 Poison Sting
10 Flash
14 Ember
19 Mudshot
24 Confuse Ray
28 Acid Spray
33 Whirlpool
38 Lava Plume
42 Stockpile
---Swallow
---Spit Up
47 Sludge Bomb
52 Morning Sun
60 Eruption

The Level-Up-Movepool begins with a rather unconventional move in Growth. The reason I chose it over something like Withdraw is the fact that i absolutely wanted to place it somewhere in Mollux's movepool, and it fits here rather well. Growth is Mollux's only boosting move, and helps to compensate the lack of recovery in sun with more offensive presence.
As Mollux hatches, it possesses the moves Growth and Constrict. They support the picture of the baby snail acting very passiv, focusing on growing and using its tentacles rather haphazardly when encountering a foe.
In lv 5 then Mollux learns Poison Sting, which means, he now adapts to the more active lifestyle of a cone snail.
From lv 10 on the attacks become more and more based on the lava lamp, beginning with the rather harmless Flash and Confuse Ray and brought to a final with the mighty Eruption at lv 60. Learning Eruption through leveling up gives sun sets an easier time and doesn't force him into the field group.
Within all those power attacks there are occasionally some flavor moves such as Mudshot and Whirlpool (gives it the style of the sea monster caryptis, and adds some water to the movepool), and most outstanding: the three moves Stockpile, Swallow and Spit Up, all learned in lv 42. This three moves fit the theme so well, i had to include them to the Level-Up-Movepool: Stockpile on Mollux combines the gathering of energie (just like Lanturn) with the mixture of diverse toxics (Swalot). Swallow goes hand in hand with Stockpile, and the cone snail demonstrates it exemplary, and Spit Up was added to complete the trio.
One last move that deserves a mention on the Level-Up-Movepool is Morning Sun: It's hard to justify its presence purely under flavor aspects, and i'll admit it's there because of competitive reasons (again for giving sun sets a little advantage over rain abusers), but Morning Sun actually does a job in associating warmth and colourfulness with Mollux.


TM / HM: 22/36 VGA
TM06 Toxic
TM09 Venoshock
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM22 SolarBeam
TM24 Thunderbolt
TM25 Thunder
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM34 Sludge Wave
TM35 Flamethrower
TM36 Sludge Bomb
TM38 Fire Blast
TM42 Facade
TM43 Flame Charge
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM50 Overheat
TM57 Charge Beam
TM59 Incinerate
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM64 Explosion
TM68 Giga Impact
TM70 Flash
TM73 Thunder Wave
TM74 Gyro Ball
TM76 Struggle Bug
TM84 Poison Jab
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
VM06 Dive

Out of the TMs, there are three which i think are worth a closer look, because of the noticable effect they would have on Mollux's performance:

--Calm Mind
I decided to exclude it from Mollux's learnset, because he already has a comparatively high special attack for the role he should fulfill and because of how easy he can get free turns. It should also be noted, that Calm Mind (being a TM move) would be available on any set including those with Recover.
As for boosting his special attack, Growth and Charge Beam should really be the only options he gets. (I feel the +2 boost of Growth in sun is tolerable because Mollux's role on sun teams is different)

--Light Screen
Light Screen is in the TM list, because Mollux should be able to support his team, and after not getting Stealth Rock or Heal Bell (and Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin being restricted due to being Egg Moves), i felt Light Screen wouldn't be that harmful.
Furthermore, Mollux was clearly stated as a pokemon which should be able to boost its special defense, and Light Screen matches this, as it can be given to every set without restrictions. With the special defense boost, Mollux will have an easier time dealing with strong rain sweepers such as Tornadus, while the mostly physical moves (Earthquake) of his counters remain uneffected. As Mollux with Light Screen would be most likely supportive and therefore forgo coverage moves, Earth Power users such as Heatran and Gastrodon shouldn't have a hard time either.

--Thunder Wave
Thunder Wave is virtually obligatory for flavour reasons, because of the lava lamp's relation to electricity and Mollux's ability to learn Thunder, Thunderbolt and Charge Beam through TM.
It's competitive effects also shouldn't be overestimated, because it can only hit counters on the switch, and poison and burn are generally more useful status considering Mollux's playstyle.


Egg Moves (Amorpheus + Water1): 6/9 VGA
Fissure (Stunfisk)
Sweet Kiss (Poliwag Gen3)
Signal Beam (Octillery, ...)
Switcheroo (Floatzel)
Clear Smog (Weezing)
Octazooka (Octillery)
Recover (Gastrodon)
Rapid Spin (Blastoise)
Toxic Spikes (Omastar)

--The first three moves where added purely for flavour reasons:
Fissure refers to the ability of a cone snail to create a giant hole and let things (preferable fish) disappear in it forever,
Sweet Kiss is a standart move for accentuating a pokemon's cuteness and fits Mollux's mouthform surprisingly well,
Signal Beam is based on the blinding colourfulness of a lava lamp (Camouflague was actually intended for this purpose, but it could have endangered the typing concept).

--Then we have three moves, which where placed here to give Mollux more competitive options.
Switcheroo lets Mollux make use of choice items, which is useful mainly for sun abusers, as rain sets can't fully take advantage of the fire stab and the rain boosted Octazooka is illegal with Switcheroo. Switcheroo over Trick, because it sounds cuter and gives Mollux something mischievous (he strikes faster than the eye can follow), both of with suits him rather well.
Clear Smog is another important move for Mollux, as you don't want the pokemon you actually wall to set up on you. Clear Smog is also part of the "take advantage of youre typing"-theme, and therefore i consider to eventually put it into his Level-Up moves. Having to give up the other egg moves for it just puts this Clear Smog in a too bad position...
Octazooka, a hugly controversial move: it was certain, that, if it was included, this had to be an egg move, not only because of the flavor aspect of it being a signature move, but because the unrestricted access to it would really mess up Mollux's role in the metagame. Therefore Mollux was put in the Water1 egg group.
The exclusivity of Octazooka from the other competitive egg moves (including and especially the following three) helps to balance Octazooka's competitiveness to a tolerable amount.

--Finally Mollux's three most important egg moves: Conveniantly, non of these moves are compatible with the other, so Mollux is restricted to a single of these.
Recover is a very good move on Mollux and gives it a reliable of healing itself, which even sun sets could appreciate enough to use it over Morning Sun, and in rain (combined with dry skin and potentially Light Screen) it allows him to wall almost any rain team member.
Toxic Spikes: It's his only form of entry hazard, as this shoulnd't be his primary playstyle. Still, Toxic Spikes allows Mollux to successfully abuse status and maybe even combine it with a great stab in Venoshock.
Rapid Spin is the third option Mollux has here. He himself might not be the best spinner, but his ability to masterfully handle common spinblockers certainly makes it worth a consideration.
Note that sets running Toxic Spikes or Rapid Spin can still run the Level-Up-Move Morning Sun as recovery if they want to support their team over a longer period.

Clear Smog + Recover (Gastrodon)
Clear Smog + Signal Beam (Horsea)
Signal Beam + Octazooka (Octillery)
Signal Beam + Rapid Spin (Blastoise)


As this is my first submission, im aware that there might be certain mistakes in there, so i would greatly appreciate, if you guys informed me when you come across anything strange.

EDIT: This is now my Final Submission
 

Deck Knight

Tornadic Cyclohm
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
CAP Head Mod
#57
Just leaving a note here that I have been monitoring the thread, it's just this is an insanely busy week for me. It's probably not going to let up until Sunday, sadly, but I'll try to do what needs to be done before then.
 

MCBarrett

i love it when you call me big hoppa
#58
I'm well aware Fire Spin and Stockpile won't be top-tier competitive moves whether or not they're legal with Recover, but they're interesting fringe options that I don't want to punish people for trying out. Gastropods getting Recover by level-up is well-established: Slugma/Magcargo, Shellos/Gastrodon, and Shelmet/Accelgor all do.

That being said, it's clear that people really don't like the idea of Synthesis, so I will explore other means of giving it Morning Sun / Moonlight. Maybe having both that and Recover as level-up moves is not terrible if the distance between them is enough?
I think that would be fine, maybe make them available on the same level? I know that happens with many other similar moves
 
#59
I'm well aware Fire Spin and Stockpile won't be top-tier competitive moves whether or not they're legal with Recover, but they're interesting fringe options that I don't want to punish people for trying out. Gastropods getting Recover by level-up is well-established: Slugma/Magcargo, Shellos/Gastrodon, and Shelmet/Accelgor all do.

That being said, it's clear that people really don't like the idea of Synthesis, so I will explore other means of giving it Morning Sun / Moonlight. Maybe having both that and Recover as level-up moves is not terrible if the distance between them is enough?
In my moveset Mollux learns both Wish and Moonlight as Level Up moves, and of these, Wish is learned very early while Moonlight very late. They serve different purposes, for early game and late game healing. So I don't think adding two healing moves in the level up list is a bad idea at all.

Before you do that though, think of the competitive consequences: sun, rain and weatherless teams will all be able to pick the healing move of their preference and still tailor Mollux to their needs with whatever egg moves it gets. If you're fine with that much freedom, I'd say go for it.
 

Nyktos

Custom Loser Title
#60
Hi, Flarephoenix here. I'd like to talk about something that is bugging me flavour-wise (and movepools are a hybrid of flavour and competitiveness).

Level-Up Movepools. A lot of the level-up pools I'm seeing have no recognizable pattern to the levels in which a pokemon learns move when they level up, if there even is one. Most (and I only saw most because I may have missed one) pokemon have a pattern to how they learn moves leveling up, with slight hiccups for evolution.
This inspired me; my level-up moves are now in a consistent pattern of 3-3-5.

I think that would be fine, maybe make them available on the same level? I know that happens with many other similar moves
Morning Sun is now a level-up move. I decided that having a difference of 20 levels between felt okay. Acid Armor has been moved to egg moves to compensate.
 

forestflamerunner

Ain't no rest for the wicked
#61
Banryu I don’t Feel like Mollux would be a great user of Final Gambit. When you use Final gambit, you want to be faster than your opponent so that you don’t get slammed with a powerful attack right before using final gambit so as to keep your HP at a maximum. Mollux isn’t that fast so it will have to use a choice scarf to use final gambit effectively, but then you might as well use victini as your final gambit user since its faster, got more HP and has U turn. You can probably find some people who can find some extremely niche uses for final gambit, but don’t expect it to be a great option for mollux.

Also, I made some serious changes to my movelists, including a complete revamp of the Egg Move Lists and a couple touch ups on the TM list and Level up Moves. I also completely removed the tutoring idea because I liked it less and less the more I thought about it. There were a few important VGM changes including the removal of Hurricane and calm mind and the addition of recover.

Before I didn’t want to give Mollux recover because I thought it would make mollux to powerful in the rain with dry skin, lefties, and recover, but then I remembered wny Fire/ Poison is a bad typing (earthquake weak) so I gave it recover. I took out Calm Mind mainly because I got too worried about Mollux becoming a sweeper.

I’ll be adding egg move illegalities soon. Please check out the changes here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4264239&postcount=19

Or go directly to the original post (#19). I appreciate any and all feedback. Thanks!
 
#62
Final Submission

Bold indicates STAB, * repeated, ~ VGM.

Total Moves 60/33

Level Up 16/5
01 Flash
01 Withdraw
01 Constrict
6 Poison Sting
11 Tickle
16 Bide
21 Wrap
26 Soak
31 Acid
36 Acid Armor~
41 Gastro Acid
46 Lava Plume~
51 Acid Spray~
56 Moonlight~
61-Explosion
61-Eruption~

Soak is a level up move so it can be used with Rapid Spin without having Rapid Spin be usable with everything.

I chose Moonlight over Morning Sun because Mollux doesn't seem to like sun much, so Moonlight fit a bit better despite having a poorer relationship with the typing.
Explosion and Eruption are learned at the same level because I imagine them to work pretty much the same way for Mollux except that with Eruption Mollux opens its cap and with Explosion it doesn't causing pressure to build up until it explodes.



TMs 36(34)/22

04 Calm Mind~
06 Toxic~
09 Venoshock
10 Hidden Power~
11 Sunny Day
15 Hyper Beam
16 Light Screen~
17 Protect~
18 Rain Dance~
21 Frustration~
22 SolarBeam
24 Thunderbolt~
25 Thunder~
27 Return~ (Same VGM as Frustration)
28 Dig
32 Double Team
34 Sludge Wave~
35 Flamethrower~
36 Sludge Bomb~
38 Fire Blast~
42 Facade~
43 Flame Charge~
44 Rest~
45 Attract
48 Round
50 Overheat~
59 Incinerate
61 Will-O-Wisp~
64 Explosion*
66 Payback~
68 Giga Impact
70 Flash*
73 Thunder Wave~
83 Work Up~
87 Swagger
90 Substitute~


Egg Moves 10/6
Bug/Water 1
Aqua Ring
Encore~
Endure
Mud Slap
Octazooka
Rapid Spin~
Recover~
Signal Beam~
Stealth Rock~
Toxic Spikes~

I chose to use Bug/Water 1 as my egg groups because I felt Mollux should be able to breed with Shuckle and Shelmet and it should be in one of the Water groups. Mollux could belong to either Water 1 or Water 3 flavor wise, so I decided based on the egg moves I wanted.

Aqua Ring allows Mollux to recover up to 25% of its max HP per turn.

Octazooka and Signal Beam provide additional coverage without overshadowing its STABs. Octazooka is not compatible with most of the egg moves which will limit its use and is really only usable in the Rain.
Signal Beam is slightly stronger than a resisted Flamethrower(no rain) or Sludge Wave and a super effective Signal Beam is weaker than a neutral Fire Blast outside of Rain.


Legal Combinations
Endure is legal with everything, so it is not listed.

Aqua Ring + Encore + Mud Slap + Signal Beam Walrein
Aqua Ring + Mud Slap + Rapid Spin + Signal Beam Blastoise
Aqua Ring + Mud Slap + Recover + Stealth Rock Corsola

Encore + Mud Slap + Recover Accelgor
Encore + Mud Slap + Stealth Rock Shuckle

Mud Slap + Octazooka + Signal Beam Octillery
Mud Slap + Stealth Rock + Toxic Spikes Omastar
Mud Slap + Rapid Spin + Stealth Rocks Kabutops

Rapid Spin + Signal Beam + Stealth Rock + Toxic Spikes Forretress
 
#63
Banryu I don’t Feel like Mollux would be a great user of Final Gambit. When you use Final gambit, you want to be faster than your opponent so that you don’t get slammed with a powerful attack right before using final gambit so as to keep your HP at a maximum. Mollux isn’t that fast so it will have to use a choice scarf to use final gambit effectively, but then you might as well use victini as your final gambit user since its faster, got more HP and has U turn. You can probably find some people who can find some extremely niche uses for final gambit, but don’t expect it to be a great option for mollux.
Yeah, you're right. There's really no reason to use Final Gambit on Mollux when Victini does it better, and as such, I feel that Final Gambit should only be added if movepool creators feel it is flavorfully relevant (personally, I don't). As for your movepool changes, FFR, the level-up and egg moves look fine to me for the most part, though I don't feel like there's much of a flavor basis nor competitive merit for including Wish (much like Final Gambit xP). Also, I'll bring up again what people have been pestering you about regarding level 6 Selfdestruct. You know what I'm talking about... Beyond that, I don't see any moves that I feel shouldn't be there. Are you making any record of the noteworthy discluded moves in your movepool? Might not be a bad idea.

With that resolved (for myself), my latest updates include removing Final Gambit, adding Charge Beam for flavor reasons mainly, and reinstating Work Up also for flavor, relatively harmless as it is.

My attention now turns to Power Gem and Stealth Rock.
For Power Gem, there's nothing worrisome competitively-speaking whether it is present in movepools or not (Hidden Power has equal power to it, so it basically just frees up a slot for other Hidden Powers that will not likely be used when Recover/Fire STAB/Electric move are also used). My main concern with Power Gem is for flavor. How does Power Gem contribute to flavor? I don't really think that it does. A lot of people are placing Mollux in the Mineral egg group, which while less fitting than others, I can understand, because the lava lamp shell is probably interpreted as some sort of conical mini-volcano (which would serve to explain Lava Plume and Eruption a bit). Even taking that into account, however, I can't really see Mollux using Power Gem like I can with other flavor moves (like Signal Beam). In its animation, Power Gem sends out faceted waves of light, almost like a rock-cutter or something, from some sort of rock or mineral-like appendage on its body. Are the metallic components of Mollux's lava lamp enough to warrant flavorful usage of Power Gem? I'm not convinced that they are. I'm probably overthinking it, though.

For Stealth Rock, my concerns are competitive. Toxic Spikes I don't mind, given that they can be circumvented with relative ease and take a while to set, but the SR mindset is quick'n'easy and forget it was even on his set after using it, and I don't feel it contributes anything to his role as a pivot. There's the argument that Heatran does this better so it's harmless, but since many breeding combinations allow it alongside Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin, I worry that the inclusion of Stealth Rock distracts from the concept, like many of us agree that Calm Mind does. I see Stealth Rock as a bridge of sorts that would allow Mollux to cross the line from bulky offensive pivot to bulky offensive support, and that removing it would keep Mollux where we want him to be. Again though, I might be worrying for nothing. Thoughts on this?
 

ZhengTann

Nargacuga
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#64
...
For Stealth Rock, my concerns are competitive. Toxic Spikes I don't mind, given that they can be circumvented with relative ease and take a while to set, but the SR mindset is quick'n'easy and forget it was even on his set after using it, and I don't feel it contributes anything to his role as a pivot. There's the argument that Heatran does this better so it's harmless, but since many breeding combinations allow it alongside Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin, I worry that the inclusion of Stealth Rock distracts from the concept, like many of us agree that Calm Mind does. I see Stealth Rock as a bridge of sorts that would allow Mollux to cross the line from bulky offensive pivot to bulky offensive support, and that removing it would keep Mollux where we want him to be. Again though, I might be worrying for nothing. Thoughts on this?
Deck has stated in his OP that Mollux can run basic support as a side job, so I suppose Stealth Rock wouldn't be booted off as a distraction immediately. We've all seen its statspread - it would be a liability to make a pure or even half support role out of Mollux, moveset-wise. So yeah, I included Stealth Rocks in mine (heck, I'd be giving Mollux a quasi-Forretress set), but its your call, nevertheless.

P.S. I disagree with you about Calm Mind, but then, without these disagreements, movepools would end up exactly the same.
 
#65
Deck has stated in his OP that Mollux can run basic support as a side job, so I suppose Stealth Rock wouldn't be booted off as a distraction immediately. We've all seen its statspread - it would be a liability to make a pure or even half support role out of Mollux, moveset-wise. So yeah, I included Stealth Rocks in mine (heck, I'd be giving Mollux a quasi-Forretress set), but its your call, nevertheless.
It would be a liability coverage-wise to give Mollux 2-3 support moves on a single set (like say, Lava Plume, SR, TSpikes, Rapid Spin-- I'm assuming this is the 'quasi-Forretress'). Granted, it IS a bit of a liability not being able to attack everything with that enormous sp.atk. stat, I'll give you that... I think I see your point, however, I'm still not fully convinced. I'll have to work it out for myself though I suppose.

I disagree with you about Calm Mind, but then, without these disagreements, movepools would end up exactly the same.
Why? What's your reasoning for thinking that CM is okay to have on Mollux? Explain. (I'm not questioning your decision, understand, just trying to look at all sides on the issue.)
 

Korski

Distilled, 80 proof
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
#66
Okay I've finalized my submission in case of sudden thread closing, but I can still tweak it around a bit if someone has a good suggestion. While looking around at the other movepools, I see some interesting quasi-competitive differences. The slate choices and poll should be interesting. Good luck to all submitters!
 
#67
Dragon Tail, huh Korski? That's pretty controversial, considering it was never discussed... Though I suppose Roar and Whirlwind were... still, odd that you chose that over at least Whirlwind, flavorfully unfitting as all three are. I notice you chose to omit Haze and Clear Smog as well, which seem more fitting to me... It's just my opinion, but I don't feel that hazard-shuffling should be Mollux's primary role. The merits of preventing Dragon-types from setting up are valid concerns, though I WILL say that the main reason it is flavorfully incorrect isn't for the lack of a tail, necessarily, but for the fact that Mollux isn't reptilian. Not dragon, even, but reptilian. The commonality between all Pokemon who receive Dragon Tail (with the debatable exception of Slowking, who potentially might be) is that they are reptilian in design, physiology, or nature, which Mollux is almost certainly not and thus is not a good recipient for the move. If you feel such a phazing move should absolutely be included, why not Circle Throw? It certainly makes more flavor sense than Dragon Tail.

A minor nitpick would be to note that Whirlpool is an HM from HG/SS, and HMs are non-transferable to B/W... There are still a few mons that learn Whirlpool in Gen 5 but the list isn't nearly that extensive.

Thanks and good luck to you as well.
EDIT: I will say that I appreciate your interpretation on the whole lava lamp/pacifism thing, that's an interesting take... My own was a much more literal take on the abilities of the cone snail and lava lamp... so it's nice to see people thinking deeper like that. ~__~


Made some final edits to my own movepool. I realized that all TM-learning Pokemon get Facade, so I've added that.

EDIT: -sigh- Well, I'm done. I'm not terribly proud of myself, but I've gone and added some moves I was intent on discluding, (among them Flame Charge, Calm Mind, and Acid Armor) in an effort to make my movepool more appealing to everyone. =___= Hurricane, Power Gem, Wish, Trick, Confuse Ray, and Magnet Rise were among the most noteworthy moves that I decided to disclude, and I'm quite certain about them, at least. I might tweak it a bit more but overall I think it's satisfactory.

Screw it, I'm not done, Korski's right my egg moves are still swollen. >___<
 
#68
Final Submission: 59 moves, 32 VGMs (designed to be well below the allowable 75/40 move limit)

01 - Constrict
01 - Ember
01 - Charm
01 - Fire Spin
05 - Constrict
10 - Ember
14 - Clear Smog
19 - Stockpile
23 - Lava Plume
28 - Gastro Acid
32 - Switcheroo
37 - Skill Swap
38 - Heat Wave
44 - Acid Spray
52 - Recover
59 - Toxic Spikes
67 - Eruption

The levels for this submission is based from Magcargo's level-up list. It's a mix of Normal, Poison and Fire moves.


TM06 - Toxic
TM09 - Venoshock
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM16 - Light Screen
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM21 - Frustration
TM22 - Solarbeam
TM24 - Thunderbolt
TM25 - Thunder
TM27 - Return
TM32 - Double Team
TM34 - Sludge Wave
TM35 - Flamethrower
TM36 - Sludge Bomb
TM38 - Fire Blast
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Flame Charge
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM46 - Thief
TM48 - Round
TM49 - Echoed Voice
TM50 - Overheat
TM57 - Charge Beam
TM59 - Incinerate
TM61 - Will-O-Wisp
TM66 - Payback
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM70 - Flash
TM73 - Thunder Wave
TM84 - Poison Jab
TM87 - Swagger
TM90 - Substitute

Basically it's the required TM list, with the addition of Thunder Wave, Charge Beam, Thunderbolt and Thunder, alluding to the electrical nature of its lava lamp.


Aqua Ring
Ingrain
Knock Off
Octazooka
Soak
Whirlpool

And here we have the egg moves, and if you've noticed, these are mostly water moves, to signify the aquatic nature of Mollux's cone snail design.


Hurricane same set exclusive with Thunder
Final Gambit
Flare Blitz
Gunk Shot
Mud Shot
Power Gem
Power Whip
Razor Shell
Signal Beam
Waterfall

Accupressure
Acid Armor / Iron Defense
Amnesia
Calm Mind
Charge
Coil
Disable
Encore
Endure
Fake Tears / Metal Sound
Foresight
Growth
Haze
Heal Bell
Magic Coat
Magnet Rise
Morning Sun / Moonlight
Pain Split
Rapid Spin
Recycle
Roar
Role Play
Sleep Talk
Snatch
Stealth Rock
Whirlwind
Wish
Work Up
 

Nyktos

Custom Loser Title
#69
My submission too, is now officially "final". The last change I made was to remove Calm Mind which I have decided is largely unnecessary and not really fitting for Mollux either competitively or flavourfully. To make up for it, I added Thunder Wave which I've been mentally flip-flopping about the whole time.
 

ZhengTann

Nargacuga
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#70
@ Banryu - My reasons for Calm Mind (along with other boosting moves) are in the competitive reasoning part here, which I suppose is now counted as an almost final submission - for now. If you'd rather not risk the wall of words, in summary it allows Mollux to be bulky rather than pivot. Its not necessarily a deviation from the concept, as I've said about Stealth Rocks - it simply gives Mollux an extra option, kind of like Haxorus being a set-up sweeper even though Salamence is faster.
 
#71
Hmm, I think I see your point, Zheng, though I disagree. Regardless, though, I sold my soul to the crowd to have CM in my own movepool, so that those who want it can have it... I don't personally believe it will be very effective (except perhaps in very late-game scenarios, and even then it lacks the speed), so in that light, including it does little harm in my mind.

I will say that reading Korski's explanation of his submission has certainly changed my mind about Stealth Rock, though. I may have been looking at that in the wrong light...
 

Korski

Distilled, 80 proof
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
#72
Originally Posted by Fat Banryu

Dragon Tail, huh Korski? That's pretty controversial, considering it was never discussed... Though I suppose Roar and Whirlwind were... still, odd that you chose that over at least Whirlwind, flavorfully unfitting as all three are. I notice you chose to omit Haze and Clear Smog as well, which seem more fitting to me... It's just my opinion, but I don't feel that hazard-shuffling should be Mollux's primary role. The merits of preventing Dragon-types from setting up are valid concerns, though I WILL say that the main reason it is flavorfully incorrect isn't for the lack of a tail, necessarily, but for the fact that Mollux isn't reptilian. Not dragon, even, but reptilian. The commonality between all Pokemon who receive Dragon Tail (with the debatable exception of Slowking, who potentially might be) is that they are reptilian in design, physiology, or nature, which Mollux is almost certainly not and thus is not a good recipient for the move. If you feel such a phazing move should absolutely be included, why not Circle Throw? It certainly makes more flavor sense than Dragon Tail.

A minor nitpick would be to note that Whirlpool is an HM from HG/SS, and HMs are non-transferable to B/W... There are still a few mons that learn Whirlpool in Gen 5 but the list isn't nearly that extensive.
I hope someone will let me know before the thread closes if Dragon Tail is in fact Disallowed for not being discussed specifically. I figured that since Roar and Whirlwind were allowed then phazing moves were on the table, and I really do think Mollux could make use of it, as opposed to Clear Smog and Haze, which lack the shuffling effect that makes Phaze > Haze. The flavor isn't so bad (I expanded my post to include more reasoning for the move), certainly not enough to force it out of the movepool, imo.

Circle Throw is a nifty thought, although if I added it to my Egg pool it would be illegal with all other hazard moves (lol), and if I added it to the Level-Up list it would mess up the flavor of it. Dragon Tail is easy to access in the TM list and has no immunities to worry about; even doing super-effective damage on Dragons like Lati@s on the switch-in can net around 17-20% damage (negative nature, 0 EVs) before factoring in hazards, so it's kind of like Mollux has a little weapon to use against those Dragons that threaten to set up, which is fine because they're not on the Threat List.

Thanks for the catch on Whirlpool! It gave me a chance to go back and iron out the move legalities so they're accurate, something which I was too lazy to do thoroughly before. Whirlpool does have many fewer legalities than I originally claimed, and a few other illegalities popped up, like no more Tickle + Trick, but nothing competitively significant was changed, unless you really wanted to try out Acid Spray + Whirlpool. Thanks for the feedback!

I wonder, Banryu, if you need all those Egg moves. I can't find any Pokemon with 18 breedable moves (the closest I got was Swampert with 15 can anyone do better?), and that number just looks high to begin with. I also think a little more insight into your thought process and/or move selection in your post will give voters a better grasp on how to picture your movepool working for the CAP to achieve success. For instance, you have Thunder only in the Egg list, illegal with everything else to avoid having Mollux try for too many things at once, yet you still have all of Stealth Rock + Toxic Spikes + Rapid Spin together from Forretress. You may want to explain what's so dangerous about Thunder that it can't be available as a TM, and maybe just beef up reasonings here or there, to give your submission more competitive evidence to back it up. Also, your "Legal Breeding Combos" section doesn't mention Accupressure, Disable, Endeavor, Ingrain, Magic Coat, Stockpile, Swallow, or Whirlpool at all. It does mention Power Gem and Morning Sun, which aren't in your Egg pool. I just think you need to update that section since it looks like you've edited your original list. I hope that's helpful feedback. Good first movepool submission!
 

nyttyn

Even ghosts stray from the path of righteousness
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
#73
Calm mind will be very effective once its weaknesses are removed from play. See: CroCune. It'll be a tad situational, but don't count calm mind out of the running just yet. Anyways, finished my movepool.

I beseech everyone to consider giving this thing any moves on the movepool you create freely, as Mollux does not need unnecessary restrictions. For the love of Arceus we've been moderate as fuck, if we leave it without as many options as possible it will not be able to have a presence in OU.
 

forestflamerunner

Ain't no rest for the wicked
#74
Yeah, I am going to Finalize my movepool now. I don't see to many other changes I want to make. I added in a Egg move illegalities list so that is always nice. I really want to address a concern many people have with my movepool: selfdestruct at level six. I know that level six is really early to learn a move with that much power, but it is not without precedent. Pineco also learns it at level 6 and its not like I'm slapping on Selfdestruct for the hell of it. I articulated a pretty good reason of why Mollux learns Selfdestruct at level six and how that move helps shape the rest of Mollux's level up movepool. SelfDestruct isn't really giving mollux a super powerful offensive option early on either given mollux's abysmal attack stat. In fact, sludge, which mollux learns two moves later, would be more powerful against most opponents than selfdestruct would be. So that's all I have to say about that
 
#75
I really don't understand why everyone's hellbent on making Mollux suck. He needs all the help he can get, why is everyone putting an incredible amount of restrictions on him?

Think about it this way: Serperior is a pokemon who has a move slightly less powerful than Hyper Beam, but instead of having to recharge, it has a secondary effect of doubling in power every turn it's used, and it still isn't in DW OU (i barely ever see people use it). Whimsicott is Whimsicott and it's not in OU. This generation's had a ridiculous amount of power creep. Mollux needs an incredible movepool to make up for being incredibly subpar in every other area (except for being cute).

I'm not submitting a movepool because mine would probably get ripped apart and I don't really know what I'm doing, but I know well enough to see that Mollux needs help if you guys want it to not get completely screwed over.
 
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