1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Wyverii, Apr 19, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Wyverii

    Wyverii "What I cannot create, I do not understand."
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    798
    As a reminder, here's the concept:
    This will be the type discussion. You may discuss mono types or dual types as a set as the TL directs.

    Try to keep your discussion clean and do not poll-jump into later parts of the process. Remember to discuss with mind to the TL as well as the community. He is the one you will have to convince to be slated.
  2. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,576
    So here it is, after much discussion we come to the crucial point of this CAP. What Typing are we going to build around?

    Current Slate Idea:

    Fire
    Poison
    Bug / Psychic
    Fire / Poison
    Ice / Rock
    Ice / Steel



    Parameters for the Typing Discussion:
    • The Typing Discussion will be initially open to a list selected from 1DTO and 2CTD.
    • Additional types can be argued for outside those lists, provided it meets two standards: It is sufficiently self-evidently bad (has key weaknesses and vulnerabilities to common strategies), but does have enough strong points that you can also argue it would be defining (for example its offensive STAB combination is stellar, like Volcarona's and Tyranitars, its one or two resistances can be capitalized on to turn a match around, etc.)
    • "Offensive" and "Defensive" use designations will be ignored. These will be argued in Threats and Stat Limit Discussion.

    The Discussion will focus on:
    • Why the typing is considered bad.
    • What positive qualities it brings that can make it defining positively.
    • What role it could fit given its weaknesses and defining strengths.
    • Is this the worst typing that could be selected and still fulfill the above discussion points competently?

    I imagine people are a bit tired of how I like to structure things, but this is a concept that hits hard in the early stages, and I am committed to forcing the analysis there instead of rushing through and trying to fix mistakes. I believe this approach is the best way to pull what we need out of the concept and learn from it.

    Lists:

    Acceptable Mono-types:
    Monotype listing (open)
    Bug
    Dark
    Fire (No Weather Starting)
    Grass
    Ice
    Normal
    Poison
    Rock
    Steel

    Disqualified Monotypes:
    Dragon (Haxorus)
    Electric (Electivire / Too awesome)
    Fighting (Too awesome)
    Flying (Tornadus)
    Ghost (Too awesome)
    Ground (Donphan, Dugtrio)
    Psychic (Alakazam, Reuniclus, Azelf, Deoxys-D)
    Water (Politoed /Vaporeon / Too awesome)


    Acceptable 2CTD Dual-Types (without duplication):
    2CTD List (open)

    Bug / Grass
    Bug / Psychic
    Electric / Fire (No Levitate)
    Fire / Ice
    Grass / Ice
    Ground / Rock
    Ice / Poison
    Ice / Rock
    Ice / Steel

    Disqualified Dual-types that fit description:
    Bug / Ghost (Not enough relative weaknesses)
    Bug / Poison (Many representatives, Not enough relative weaknesses)
    Bug / Water (Not enough relative weaknesses)
    Dark / Rock (Tyranitar)
    Dragon / Fighting (Way too awesome)
    Dragon / Rock (Too offensively powerful)
    Electric / Water (Rotom-W, Krilowatt, anyone?)
    Flying / Fighting (Too awesome / Tomohawk did this.)
    Flying / Rock (Archeops and Aerodactyl)
    Flying / Water (Gyarados)
    Fighting / Rock (Terrakion)
    Fire / Grass (Pyroak did this, Not enough relative weaknesses)
    Fire / Water (Not enough relative weaknesses)
    Grass / Ground (Resists SR, Not enough relative weaknesses)
    Grass / Rock (Cradily, Not enough relative weaknesses)
    Ice / Fighting (Too offensively powerful)
    Ice / Ground (Mamoswine)
    Ice / Water (Cloyster)
    Poison / Ghost (Gengar)
    Poison / Water (Tentacruel)
    Steel / Water (Too awesome / Empoleon)


    Now you may notice I did a LOT of pruning. This is in keeping with point (d.) above. We literally want the worst typing available that is still solid enough to define the Pokemon. At the end we want a typing on a Pokemon that says "This Pokemon is successful in part because it is this typing, not in spite of it." The challenge I present to you in this thread is to argue for those typings which have the kind of strengths in their STABs that, while Opening the Pokemon to a lot of weaknesses to common metagame strategies, allow that Pokemon to succeed.

    Again, you may propose new dual types, or argue against some of the decisions I've made for mono or dual types, but it has to be in the context of the four focus points.

    [​IMG]
  3. Flarephoenix332

    Flarephoenix332

    Joined:
    May 15, 2010
    Messages:
    130
    I would like to suggest Grass/Bug for this typing (listed under 2CTD).

    Grass/Bug Defensive Type Chart:
    x4 Fire, Flying
    x2 Ice, Rock, Bug, Poison
    x1/2 Electric, Fighting, Water
    x1/4 Grass, Ground

    As you can see, while Grass/Bug has many notable weaknesses, it also has some great resistances. I still consider this type to be pretty bad, especially in OU. He's weak to Heatran's Fire-Stab, the powerful Hurricane attack/Flying Attacks, Scizor's Bug-Stab, Stealth Rock and Stone Edge, and Ice Shard/Other Ice Moves. You're also not immune to any statuses or (T-)Spikes immune.

    Notable STABs Resisters:
    Steel, Flying, Fire, or Poison types (without a Grass or Bug weak second type) resist these STABs.

    I love how many pokemon wall this. It can be worked around--add Rock and only Steel-types (without a Rock-weak secondary type) wall it. Oh, and Toxicroak. But let's look at what it can notably hit SE with its STABs in OU:

    Rotom-W (Grass), TTar (Bug and Grass), Politoed (Grass), Terrakion (Grass).

    And that's just the top 10 in the "Three-month Usage" list. You blow up Celebi, Starmie, and many others. But you may be saying "Flare, you're not going to switch in on a lot of these pokemon--TTar or Terrakion would kick this things ass." That's really what I love about this type: It maybe have some scary weaknesses, but it can also blast pokemon who switch into it. I don't see TTar or Terrakion all too happy to switch into a Grass Knot or Seed Flare.

    Grass/Bug (or Bug/Grass) is a bad typing in OU that has promise and we can fix it.
  4. Dragontongue195040

    Dragontongue195040

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    112
    I think Mono Ice is the best idea here (though, Fire Ice catches my eye too.) One of the biggest stereotypes here on smogon is that Ice types suck defensively- and I think that this CAP can really change that. Ice type, I believe, is one of the strongest typings and one of the most stereotypically ignored. Should it be processed and gleaned into something that can totally bypass the average player's thought, then I think we can really call ourselves successful in this regard. Another stereotype is that ice types only work well in Hail- which is also not true. Ice types shine in hail, but can function perfectly outside of it, and sometimes even better in other weather (etc Cloyster in rain).
    a. This typing is considered bad because most pokemon with this type are fast, frail sweepers. Most are weak to stealth rock, the most common form of hazards in the game, and are weak to common types, such as rock, fire, and fighting, with no immunities and one resistance.
    b. Ice is a great typing offensively. It hits the super common Ground, Flying, Grass, and Dragon types super effectively, and many of the tiers highest threats (etc. Dragonite, Salamence, Latios, Landorus, Gliscor) It also has a ton of useful powered moves, such as the classic Icicle Spear Cloyster, Ice Shard Donphan, and the notorious BoltBeam combo.
    c.We could make a support based Ice type- one that can spin away rocks that harm it, and one that can tank hits and hit back with powerful STABs. It could also abuse it's priority in Ice Shard, something many other Ice types just wish they had. (heck, something many pokemon wish they had.)
    d.Yes- ice is often referred as a glass cannon typing- even more so because you can see right through it. It can hit pretty hard, but usually anything that can outspeed it can easily dispose of it (especially the super common Bullet Punch Scizor.) It has the stats of a sweeper, but the typing is just plain horrible. Perfect for this CAP. :D
  5. Seven Eagles

    Seven Eagles

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    (I'm just going to point out that Bug/Grass has Parasect, who has a niche as an incredibly obnoxious subseeder in drizzle and is perfectly usable in OU, even if it's in NU)

    I'm incredibly curious about a mono poison type. While it has the problem of being horrible stab, an offensive poison type could easily switch in on fighting type moves/attempts to toxic/toxic spikes, set up, and start wreaking havoc. If it were given levitate, it would resist/be immune to two of the most common attacking types in the game (fighting/ground), which would definitely help in being a good set-up sweeper.

    Poison Stab also has Acid Spray, which either works as a pseudo-nasty plot or a way to force switches (most pokemon don't like having their sp.def halved).

    I feel like the reason that mono psychic doesn't work very well is that even though a fighting resist is useful, psychics are always too frail to make any use of it, and they only have one useful resist. Poison has more resists, an immunity to toxic, and therefore can switch in on more moves to hit/set up. Poison is notably supereffective/resists Breloom's STABs, is supereffective against many Chlorophyll sweepers (and resists their main STAB), and negates toxic spikes (tentacruel is useful for these reasons but is a lot more defensive and relies on Scald for STAB)

    EDIT: Also it resists virizion, volcarona, scizor, toxicroak, terrakion (although toxicroak and terrakion resist poison), scrafty, infernape, lucario, and conkledurr's stabs. Being able to resist a lot of the metagame's big hitters comes in handy for something that can switch into a lot of hits.
  6. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    3,888
    Weehee i originally pitched Grass/bug to #cap! I don't know if i had anything to do with flare's post but I reserve the right to pretend I did

    I'm going to take a highly different direction in my post: namely move to remove some types from Deck's 1DTO list. As jas said, a typing is only bad if it is bad defensively. This is true for multiple reasons. For one, any sufficiently bulky mon with good stats is able to boost to the point it can sweep. Ths is not true in reverse. Secondly, you can choose to hit opposing mons with coverage moves of any type, given you have them. You cannot do the same in reverse. Thirdly, a good defensive mon can abuse any switches it forces to earn free turns to execute its strategy, the same cannot be said for a mon that dies upon switching into almost any attack. Look at any viable monotype in OU, and with the sole exception of darmaniwhatthefuckiswiththosestatsandmovepool, all are defensive/supportive

    This reasoning has convinced me that both Mono steel and Mono normal should be off the plate, Deck. These Pokemon cannot be used with any senblance of bulk, as they are simply too good defensively. It's been done to death in the case of Normal with mons such as Blissey, Chansey, Porygon2, and fuck even Miltank. Each, especially the last two, are quite successful due to their ability to force free switches with their bulk. While Mono-Steel is only really seen in Registeel, it sits pretty in UU despite its balls cock movepool and fairly useless ability. To reiterate, a mono Normal or Steel mon with any bulk has too good of typing. the only real option for either of these would be a straight-up Glass Cannon, which is just not a good idea because that would virtually define succeeding despite typing instead of thanks to. Not to mention be not very fun.

    With that out of the way, i look at the rest of the allowed types and see a gery similar pattern to what I have suggested - good defensive types such as Ghost and Water are removed whilst terrible ones such as Dark, Fire, and Ice have stayed. While working off precedent is not the best argument for removing a type when precedent is two days old and established by the person you're trying to persuade, i do believe that it applies here, and unless someone makes a stellar case for Steel or Normal, I move that mono-steel and mono-normal be removed from the acceptable type list

    Edit @ dragontongue: mono ice being terrible defensively is not myth but fact - it resists only itself and is weak to Fight/fire/bullet punch/sr?
  7. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,885
    I'm going to open Pandora's Box here and suggest:

    Rock / Ice (or Ice / Rock... apparently there's no difference?)

    Looking at that, most people would think it's the worst possible typing. And it probably is. I doubt I even have to explain why. Like any other type combination, it does have a few pluses that are worth mentioning. More than that, though, this kind of typing will probably cause the most interesting discussion, the most controversy, and the most use out of every future stage of this process.

    Let's look at its positives and the likely role that Rock / Ice will take. Looking at its numerous weaknesses, mostly to very common attacking types in OU, it is probably doomed to be a hit-and-run attacker (not necessarily Choiced). It does have some advantages in this regard. Physical Rock-type STAB and special Ice-type STAB can be rather useful, and the typing can benefit from both sand and hail.

    The weaknesses, also, can be put to use. I normally wouldn't even list them but even I need to keep track of them: Fighting, Grass, Ground, Rock, Steel, and Water. Keep in mind that Grass- and Ground-types are threatened by Ice STAB. The other weaknesses mean that Rock / Ice CAP would mainly lure in Tyranitar, Terrakion, Water-types, and the priority users Scizor and Conkeldurr. Depending on what we do with the future stages, we could use this to Rock / Ice CAP's advantage to give the aforementioned a hard time somehow. It's hard to elaborate without poll-jumping, but it's certainly possible, and perhaps a new niche will be created out of it.

    The thing that really gets me about this typing is that it is so incredibly bad, and yet the tools available to us are still powerful enough that we can accentuate the few advantages that it does have. The process resulting from this would probably run counter to most of the CAP processes from the past; instead of being tasked with a balancing act throughout the process, this project would be "balanced" right from the start. What we usually see as flaws in the process can be turned around and used to our advantage. In fact, we'd most likely have to do so, at every stage, ironically reducing the risk of one aspect "replacing" the typing. To anyone who has ever wanted to see the very being of the CAP process turned upside down, just to see what would happen: THIS is your chance.
  8. lugiaisbeast

    lugiaisbeast

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2009
    Messages:
    10
    I would like to see either Ice/Rock or Steel/Rock.
    Ice/Rock has more weaknesses and fewer resistances but has a very powerful STAB combo which hits everything but steel for at least neutral.
    Steel/Rock confers a large number of resistances and only three weaknesses but of those, two are 4x (ground and fighting) the third being water, three of the most common types in OU. the Steel STAB contributes little offensively to the pokemon.
    Ice/Rock is a worse type defensively but has more offensive potential, while Steel/Rock is mediocre offensively, and overall fairly strong but with easily exploited weaknesses on defense.
    overall Ice/Rock is probably the "worse" type but I think Steel/Rock would be more interesting to work with, and provides a more obvious "diamond in the rough" strength than Ice/Rock
  9. Kaprikorn

    Kaprikorn

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2011
    Messages:
    87
    How does this work? Once you switch in, you've already taken SR damage, so it's pointless.
  10. Furosuto

    Furosuto

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,411
    An ice/rock typing would be a good idea I think. Why?

    • Both are great offensively.
    • Can cover a mutlitude of types which include fire, bug, ice, flying, dragon, ground, and grass. This allows it to take out many of the main OU mons in the metagame.
    • Both can become physical fighters due to the attacks they learn. Some notable attacks include:
    • Icicle spear
    • Icicle Crash
    • Ice Shard
    • Stone Edge
    • Rock Slide
    And then there is the sp def boost benefit that rock types get in a sandstorm which will help.

    A rock/ice type also has the typing to take out a notable amount of OU mons that wreak havoc across the metagame. Some off the top of my head include:
    • Dragonite
    • Salamence
    • Haxorus
    • Ninetales
    • Celebi
    • Donphan
    • Breloom
    • Landorus
    • Hydreigon
    • Gliscor
    • Lati@s
    As you can see, these are some of the most terrifying pokemon in the metagame. This pokemon definitely has some potential with this type. Seeing as this is an offensive pokemon, it should be able to deal a lot of damage fast and be able to put a lot of dents in the opponent.

    Anyways, that's just my opinion.
  11. The Reptile

    The Reptile mfw
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,269
    Gogo Fire / Poison

    Defensive-Type Check
    2x Weaknesses: Rock, Water, Psychic
    4x Weaknesses: Ground
    Neutral: Dark, Dragon, Electric, Flying, Ghost, Normal
    2x Resist: Fire, Ice, Steel, Fighting, Poison
    4x Resist: Bug, Grass

    Offensive-Type Check
    Resist Both STAB: Rock
    Weak to Ether STAB: Bug, Grass, Ice, Steel

    Why the typing is considered bad.

    This Poison / Fire type is Stealth Rock weak and, while only hit by 4 types SE, is hit by common attacking types, while also packing a 4x weakness to Ground, which is seen on almost every physical attacker. Not only that, but it only gets 3-4 notable resist (Fire, Ice, Fighting, and maybe Bug/Steel because of Scizor) and only Bug is 4x resisted. Fire and Ice, while being used by everyone and their mother, is used as a coverage move. Fighting-types usually are in trouble unless they carry the Fight/Rock coverage, which most do these days. Bug/Steel gets a mention as notable because of Scizor and Scizor only. However, this is debatable, as U-Turn would let Scizor simply switch into a counter/check. On the offense, Fire / Poison is actually decent on the Neutral side, as most things that resist Fire are hit neutral by poison. However, SE coverage is not the best. Because the ONE thing Poison hits SE is also hit SE by Fire (Grass), all you need to do is look at what Fire hits SE. A small note is that Heatran is immune to both STAB if it carries Flash Fire, and Jellicent cock blocks both STABs by resisting.

    What positive qualities it brings that can make it defining positively.

    The typing has a couple of positive qualities that make it all worth-while though. It's neutral coverage is good as previously stated, and Fire STAB is not bad at all, hitting some of the most seen pokemon (Ferrothorn, Scizor, and to a lesser extent Forretress) 4x SE. Another feature is that, like Heatran, this pokemon is immune to Burn and Poison, making it that much harder to stall-out with residual damage (Weather and hazards are the only things that can hurt this pokemon). This makes it a pain in the ass for stall teams to deal with. Just to piss of stall even more, he can absorb Toxic Spikes thanks to it's Poison-typing. He also has some key resistances in Fighting, Fire, and Ice as previously mentioned, as these three are extremely common. Not only that, but bar Fighting (paired with Rock), the pokemon that use these offensive typing can't hit this typing SE. Sun Teams can use his resistances and ability to suck up Poison Spikes pretty good, while this pokemon beinifits by having it's main STAB powered up and it allows him to take on Bulky Water-type pokemon better. Another small thing to note is that with this typing, you wall Scizor no matter what, as Scizor can only hit you for neutral damage with Pursuit, Quick Attack, and Aerial Ace. Everything else is resisted. Also, almost all priority is resisted by this typing (only Aqua Jet hits SE)

    What role it could fit given its weaknesses and defining strengths.

    I see it working as either a bulky offense pokemon or a stall breaking pokemon. This is because, as previously mentioned, it's typing alone gives stall hell, as he is immune to Burn and Toxic, and can absorb Toxic Spikes. Bulky Attacker can also work due to the fact that it resist a good amount of commonly seen pokemon, and (again) is immune to Toxic and Burn. The question is, Physical or Special? Physically-based would use either Flare Blitz (recoil) or Blaze Kick/Fire Punch, which aren't that powerful (Blaze Kick might be, but the accuracy can suck), so unless we give it V-Create/Sacred Fire, he's either taking recoil or having weaker attacks (BP-wise). Special gets Fire Blast and Flamethrower, but don't properly abuse the fact that you can't get burned and would have some serious competition with Heatran unless it got a boosting move.

    Is this the worst typing that could be selected and still fulfill the above discussion points competently?

    Yes. The only typing that I know of that is comparable to Fire / Poison is Fire / Steel, which is a pretty good type combination (imo, almost anything with Steel is good typing, bar Ice / Steel). However, it's not completely outclassed by Fire / Steel. Fire / Steel is weak to fighting and cannot absorb Toxic Spikes.
  12. Seven Eagles

    Seven Eagles

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    The problem with this is that even though it's super effective against all those pokemon, which is pretty awesome, there isn't any way that it can come in on any of them! Do we really want another revenge killer?

    Now, Ice/steel, on the other hand, would have crippling fire/fighting weaknesses, but actually be able to come in on dragons, at the very least, and eat toxics spikes (as well as steel's plethora of resistances) It would cover the horrible defensive typing of ice with the great defensive typing of steel, and the horrible offensive typing of steel with the great offensive typing of ice. In addition, it would have a 4x resist to Ice attacks, be neutral to SR, and resist volt switch and u-turn!
  13. The Reptile

    The Reptile mfw
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,269
    Ice / Steel has almost no redeeming factor over other Steel-type combinations (except for immunity to Hail and Sandstorm, but Hail isn't common at all). Both types burden each other by having almost the same weaknesses and having no defensive synergy. Also, you don't resist Volt Switch. You're better off with Ice / Poison honestly, since they don't both share the same damn weaknesses if you want the "Crappy Defensive + Crappy Offensive" type combo. Also, you can't switch into dragons, because if they predict your (almost obvious) switch, they can hit you with a coverage option that 2/3 times is 4x SE. Not only that, but once you switch in, what can you do? Unless you outspeed (in which case, revenge killing is better because there is no risk of being hit by a 4x SE move), you can only sit there and hope to god they are Choice Locked / Locked into Outrage. I hear you say "But Ice Shard! D:", but if you want STAB Ice Shard, you're better off with a pure Ice-type or a better dual type.
  14. AOPSUser

    AOPSUser

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,579
    I'd have to say that Fire-Ice would be the best typing here.

    Well, Fire and Ice are opposites. And when opposites attract, it doesn't always turn out well. With Fire-Ice, you are 4x weak to Stealth Rock, the most common hazard in OU, and you are also weak to Stone Edge, Superpower, Hydro Pump, and Close Combat. Take a look at the top used Pokemon in OU. Let's see... Scizor has Superpower, Tyranitar has Stone Edge and Superpower, Terrakion has Close Combat and Stone Edge, Rotom-W has Hydro Pump. Also, almost everything has Earthquake. Guess who's also weak to that. Yup. As an offensive typing it does OK, but being walled by Water-types sort of sucks.

    Although Ice-Rock and Ice-Steel are both 4x weak to Fighting-types, Fire-Ice is still weak to Fighting. Besides, Ice-Rock gets the Sandstorm boost and Ice-Steel has a lot of resistances.
  15. Fisdunction

    Fisdunction

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    Messages:
    328
    I would like to propose Electric/Poison as a typing.

    Electric types tend to have very predictable movepools and invite Ground types to switch in, using their immunity and super effective STAB to immediately put pressure on the attacker. Combined with a dual weakness granted by Poison secondary typing, Ground becomes an extremely threatening opponent indeed.

    Electric/Poison gives a weakness to Psychic and Ground attacks. However, it does give a nice array of resists, making it a desirable defensive typing. These resistances include Grass, Electric, Bug, Fighting, Steel, Poison, and Flying. Notable resisted moves include Close Combat, U-Turn, Volt Switch, and Brave Bird.

    The typing also enjoys an immunity to Toxic, and can clear Toxic Spikes by switching in. Both are very useful for improving the longevity of the Pokémon.

    As previously stated, the typing has a slew of useful resistances, allowing it many opportunities to switch in. Depending on the movepool, this Pokémon could be an effective wall, status absorber, or provide support with wish or screens.

    The typing was specifically chosen to fit the role of defense, so I tried to pick types that would achieve that goal while still having some obvious weaknesses. I feel that it achieves the goal of having two "bad" types which work in a unique way.
  16. funerallaughter

    funerallaughter

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    17
    2CTD TYPES

    Bug/Grass
    (aka Parasect et. al), defensively, has two x4 resists (Ground and Grass) and three x2 resists (Electric, Fighting, and Water), but has two x4 SE (Fire and Flying) and four x2 SE against it (Bug, Ice, Poison, and Rock). Offensively, it is resisted by most Fire, Flying, Poison, and Steel variants. SR weak x2.

    Bug/Psychic
    , defensively, has six nasty SE against it (Bug, Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost, and Rock), but has a choice x4 Fighting resist (alongside x2 resist in Grass, Ground, and Psychic). Offensively, this combination can hit all typing combos at least neutrally, sans select Steel variants (Steel, Bug, Dragon, Electric, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Ground, Ice, Normal, Rock, and Water; those which exist, including CAP, are italicized). SR weak.

    Electric/Fire (somewhat aka Rotom-H), on the defense, sports a hefty number of x2 resists (Bug, Electric, Fire, Flying, Grass, and Ice) and a x4 resist in Steel, however, it has a x4 SE to Ground and two x2 SE in Rock and Water. Attacking, the combo is resisted by most Dragon combinations except for Bug, Flying, Ice, Steel, and Water. SR weak x2.

    Fire/Ice is hit x4 SE only by Rock and x2 by Fight, Ground, and Water. It resists only Bug and Grass. Only select Fire and Water variants resist this combination (notably Water/Ghost, Water/Electric, Water/Psychic, Water, Ghost/Fire, Psychic/Fire, Fire, and itself). SR weak x4.

    Grass/Ice (aka Abomasnow) resists x2 Electric, Grass, Ground, and Water; it's hit x4 SE by Fire. This typing combo is resisted only by certain Fire and Steel types (including Ghost/Fire, Psychic/Fire, Fire, Steel, Electric/Steel, Psychic/Steel, Bug/Steel, and Ghost/Steel). SR weak x2.

    Ground/Rock (Rhyperior et. al) has the ever-known immunity to Electric, x4 resist to Poison, and x2 resists to Fire, Flying, Normal, and Rock. It is hit x4 SE by Grass and Water and x2 SE by fighting, Ground, Ice, and Steel. EdgeQuake, of course, hits all typing combinations at least neutrally (except Syclant under certain circumstances). SR resist x2.

    Ice/Poison has three x2 resists in Bug, Grass, and Poison and is hit x2 SE by Fire, Ground, Psychic, Rock, and Steel (ouch). Steel is a blaring resistance to this attacking combo, most notably: Steel, Bug/Steel, Electric/Steel, Psychic/Steel, Fire/Steel, Water/Steel, and its own typing. This also can remove Toxic Spikes. SR weak x2.

    Ice/Rock is hit by Fighting and Steel, both at x4 SE, and Grass, Ground, Rock, and Water at x2 SE; it can resist at x2 Flying, Ice, Normal, and Poison. This combo is resisted notably by Steel, Psychic/Steel, Electric/Steel, Ghost/Steel, Rock/Steel, and Water/Steel. SR weak x2.

    Ice/Steel has an immunity to Poison, a x4 resist to Ice, and eight x2 resists (Bug, Dark, Dragon, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Normal, and Psychic), but is hit x4 SE by both Fire and Fighting. On the offense, Ice/Steel is resisted by several Fire, Steel, and Water variants, notably Electric/Water, Steel, Psychic/Steel, Electric/Steel, Ghost/Steel, Rock/Steel, Water/Steel, and its own typing. SR neutral.
  17. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,077
    Out of all the options presented in the OP, I think Electric / Fire appeals to the most.

    We can't use Levitate with this, so it has a debilitating 4x weakness to Ground-type moves. It's also weak to Rock (and therefore Stealth Rock) and Water. These are literally the three most commonly used types in the metagame. What this means is that anything this Pokemon attempts to check can run very widely distributed coverage moves (Earthquake, Rock Slide / Stone Edge, Surf, Hidden Power Ground) to get past it. This makes the typing a substantial liability from a defensive standpoint.

    What appeals to me about this typing, though, is the fact that it has certain key resistances combined with a very potent offensive STAB combination (that still has noticeable gaps in coverage - such as against a number of OU Dragons, Gastrodon, and even against itself). Resisting both Bug and Electric will make it an excellent pivot against Volt Turn teams (assuming it gets a reasonable level of bulk), 4x resisting Steel is great when Bullet Punch is the most common priority move in the game. While these resistances to relatively rare moves don't make up for its weaknesses to extremely common moves, they do nevertheless open up several niches.

    Now, we already know that Rotom-H, a Pokemon with great stats and even Levitate to compensate for the Ground weakness, is too ineffective in OU. This means that we know creating a successful CAP with this typing will be a challenge, because the typing is legitimately bad. At the same time, it does have its advantages, as I've outlined. Given the qualities I mentioned, I can envision a CAP of this typing working as a quick coverage-abusing attacker with moderate bulk, along the lines of Infernape or Starmie. It could also work as a bulky tank similar to Heatran, with key resistances and very high stats compensating for its common weaknesses. The typing is versatile and has a number of weaknesses that can be balanced against a number of strengths.
  18. Juicy

    Juicy

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    123
    Show Hide


    This would be a reason not to use Rock/Ice surely? You've listed a lot of good points for this typing that make it awesome. We are looking for a pokemon who's typing is not it's strong selling point stated in Theorymon's concept submission.


    I would like to suggest the mono steel type. I think this would be a fantastic option for this concept. It's weaknesses include very common attacks in OU including ground and fighting and to a common priority in Mach Punch, which are used, along with fire on dragons, as coverage options just for steels. The poor steel pokemon have no immunity to status afflictions such as burn, paralysis and leech seed and a nearly useless immunity to the poison type. Though all hope is not lost as pure steel Pokémon do have an immunity to the toxic status and resistances to 11 of the 17 types, which can be capitalised on to make for a good physical and special tank in battle. I think it's very interesting that the steel type forces a lot of pokemon to run coverage moves.

    As for hitting things the Steel type is down in the gutter hitting only two types super effectively, namely Ice and Rock, who are hardly ever used defensively. Though with a neutral attack on 11 of the 17 types and some extremely interesting STAB attacks in gyro ball, flash cannon and gear grind those hardy steels can do some damage.

    All in all the pure steel pokemon have a love of pressure to be able to perform well in the OU metagame but it does have a lot of redeeming unexplored qualities that we can utilise to make this type great.

    --EDIT--
    Also something very interesting about steels that would be great for us to explore is that Steel is the only type that has a non-neutral type matchup with all seventeen types, considering both offense and defense.
  19. srk1214

    srk1214 You spin my head right round
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,276
    I'd really like to just emphasize a few main points here.

    Fire/Ice is just too dang good of an offensive STAB combination. The only way this thing works in OU with a quad weakness to SR is to give it something completely overblown to the point that we have to worry it doesn't become BROKEN, as Volcarona nearly could be with a few modifications. I'm not confident in our ability to walk that line as perfectly as it needs to be. I'm not asking for us to play it perfectly safe, but this one just feels too narrow to me.

    The problem with Rock/Ice is the same basically. While not quad-weak to SR, it is the single worst defensive type combination in OU. (It's plenty good offensively though.) The only way this typing could work in OU is as a revenge killer basically unless I'm missing something huge. I'm not in the mood to just make a generic revenge killer. Mamo already kills the dragons better.

    The only typing I see listed as disallowed that I slightly question is Mono-Ghost. I'm not quite convinced it's "too good" for us to work with. That's not to say I actually want to make monoghost our choice, especially after just finishing Necturna. But I do question whether it really is "too good."



    Basically to sum up my viewpoint: I like Dusk's Race to the Bottom idea. But I don't think we should actually choose the very worst typing if it appears almost beyond salvaging. We don't have to quite reach to the bottom of the barrel if it would confine the CAP to one specific team role only. If we pick something from the sides of the barrel though, we can find a typing that is quite subpar but is at least versatile enough to not simply be another Dragon killer, etc.
  20. uwnim

    uwnim

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    198
    I don't think Mono-Steel is a good choice. While the weakness to Fire, Fighting and Ground are bad and it isn't a good attacking type, it does still resist 11/17 types and is immune to Poison. Those resistances are usable and would make it rather easy to create a good Pokemon. There are multiple abilities the type could use well and with a decent move pool, the coverage problem can be worked around.
  21. Juicy

    Juicy

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    123
    ...

    exactly.

    Though I would not call it easy there is a reason that no pure steel types hang around in the OU heights because those flaws you identified are very common. Registeel, the closet pure steel to OU, has such good defensive stats along with good support moves that just about make it redeemable.
  22. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,065
    The reason no mono-steel pokemon are in OU is that Registeel is out-classed by Ferrothorn, and all others simply do not have good enough stats. I feel many people here mistake lack of a certain type in OU with weakness. Steel, for example, has few weaknesses and those weaknesses are only common because they are the weaknesses of steel! Steel is simply just too good.
  23. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,089
    The problem I have here is the assumption that the typing has to be crap. This CAP seems to be turning into a one-trick pony, a revenge killer or a dragon killer or something else along those lines. I don't know what others think, but at least in my opinion, this CAL should have multiple viable movesets and a typing that is not utter shit, just one that isn't that great. Also, I am of the opinion that this CAP should not be weak to Stealth Rock. It has been done a million times before, in any OU Pokemon with a weakness to Stealth Rock. However, in the spirit of the topic, the typing should be bad one way or the other. I'd like to shown support for an Ice/Poison typing. Ground is a weakness, which is always difficult for a typing in lieu of Landorus, Mamoswine, Tyranitar, and Gliscor. Psychic is also a weakness, which causes Reuniclus and Latios to be able to take it on effectively. Fire is also one, so Heatran and the later Pyroak will be able to take it on. A notable thing is that it is resistant to Scizor's U-turn. I think one of the major things is that this typing will allow CAP 3 to operate without a Rapid Spinner. Offensively, Ice has great coverage, while Poison's coverage is poor. CAP 3 has no STAB with which to kill Steel-types, so coverage moves would be required later on. I could imagine this CAP a very diverse Pokemon, perhaps as a tank. Stats would define this typing, as with all others. I have explained why this typing is bad, but I shall reiterate. It is weak to Ground, Psychic, Rock, Steel, and Fire, while it is neutral to Dark, Dragon, Electric, Flying, Normal, and Water. With 5 weaknesses and 7 neutalities, 4 types are resisted, notably Bug. Offensively, it is super-effective against notably Dragon, Grass, Flying, and Ground, which is decent but not great. What is great is the near-perfect neutral coverage. So in short: great neutral coverage, relatively poor defensive typing. I consider anything weak to both sides of EdgeQuake, Gyro Ball, and Fire pretty bad typing.
  24. sax king

    sax king

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Messages:
    769
    I kinda want to see mono-normal. There really aren't too many Normal OU mons that are used because they are normal. Mono-steel may not exist, but Scizor is definitely used for its steel typing offensively, for example. I think Steel is just too easy as well. I mean, we'd end up just making it bulky enough to switch in on resisted hits and hit sorta hard. It's not interesting or new. I saw we develop the normal type. It's neutral. It's hard to complain, but there are better options out there. It's not too difficult to base a pokemon around, but its still not the most desired typing.
  25. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,576
    I should just note before I give extended remarks, that Fire / Ice is walled by: Every Bulky Water in existence (well, Gastrodon is neutral I suppose), as well as Heatran. Unless you were being sarcastic, which I'd generally like people to avoid when the object of the discussion is to legitimately discuss why a type is bad, but has specific redeeming qualities.

    In general I like the way the discussion is going, especially Furosuto and The Reptile's posts, which address some of the core issues of the thread. In general I'm leaning against more defensive dual-type combinations like Electric/Poison, since they don't really qualify for me as "bad typings" with only two weaknesses, however bad. (Esp. Ground since Air Balloon exists, however bad a Poison/Elec mon might be at hitting Ground types). I even have some reservations about momo Steel now, so I don't know if I'll slate it.

    One typing I did want to bring up is Fire / Rock:

    2x Weaknesses: Fighting, Rock
    4x Weaknesses: Ground, Water
    Neutral: Dark, Dragon, Electric, Ghost, Grass, Psychic, Steel
    2x Resistances: Bug, Flying, Ice, Normal, Poison
    4x Resistances: Fire
    Super-Effective Coverage: Bug, Grass, Ice, Steel, Fire, Flying.
    Burn Immunity
    SpD Boost in Sandstorm

    What makes it bad typing:

    It has 4 particularly terrible weaknesses, with Water, Rock, and Ground all being prevalent on Sand Teams, and Fighting being ubiquitous and tending to have priority. So in general it's very poor defensively. Offensively it hits 6 important types for super-effective damage, though there is significant overlap. Its STAB is also resisted by Gastrodon, a major part of Rain teams, as well as other Water/Grounds and, rare as they may be, Water/Fighting, Ground/Rock and Ground/Dragon Pokemon.

    What positive qualities it brings that can make it defining positively.

    Burn Immunity and High-Powered Physical STABs can make Fire/Rock very threatening, as there's no quick way to reduce its physical power without Intimidate, and most viable Intimidate Pokemon can't eat a STAB Head Smash or a Stone Edge to save their life. It's special attacks are not to be trifled with either, with Fire Blast, Overheat, and Weather Ball in Sandstorm. The special defense boost in Sandstorm also helps it take basically any common special attack except Surf, Hydro Pump, and Earth Power quite well. It's also very powerful in Sunny weather, where it gets improved Fire STAB, 4x resists fire, and is neutral to Solarbeam. Most Grass types pack Hidden Power Ice or Hidden Power Fire, and Fire/Rock resists both of those.

    What role it could fit given its weaknesses and defining strengths.

    Fire/Rock is a stupendous offensive STAB combination with a ton of high-powered attacks either for hit and run or as continuous pressure. It would work very well on Sand Teams as counter to Skarmory, as it resists Brave Bird and can roast it with Fire STAB. Given the right stats it could also break large portions of Rain Stall, as Ferrothorn still does not want to eat STAB Fire, and strong physical Rock attacks can eventually break down Tentacruel or most other bulky waters. Fire/Rock/Grass coverage is very potent in general.

    Is this the worst typing that could be selected and still fulfill the above discussion points competently?

    Fire/Rock has very serious weaknesses against Rain Teams and large elements of Sand Teams, but it does have key Flying and Bug resistances, and a special defense boost in Sandstorm, so provided it can keep its own cover, it can perform quite well against most of the threats in Rain and use an opponent's Sand against it. It has great potential as a stall breaker and mixed sweeper, but it is still weak to Mach Punch and Aqua Jet, meaning it can be checked by the likes of Conkeldurr and Azumarill. Bullet Punch isn't super-effective, but it will still take a large chunk out. Overall its one of those types that has a bad representative in Magcargo, but with a little Rock Polish it could take a lackluster typing and make it burn bright.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)