CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 7 - Second Flavor Ability Discussion

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#1
Yeah, we're doin' this one more time! Yeah! Not much to say at this point. HOWEVER, keep in mind that there is a bit of a difference between having one flavor ability and two. Namely, with one flavor ability, moves can be restricted to that ability, but that can't really happen with two flavor abilities unless the movepool submitter releases two events or something. Messy stuff. It's all just a stupid flavor thing, anyway, but since this stage is all about flavor...

Mollux so far:


Name: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition

General Description: The idea here is to create a Pokemon who's typing, while normally considered poor defensively and/or offensively, becomes a strong selling point of the Pokemon itself via help from an ability, stats, and/or movepool.

Justification: There are a lot of typings we scoff at on a daily basis because of their serious flaws, often forgetting about their strong points. For example, Poison is a really terrible offensive typing, but a decent defensive typing, while the Ice typing is good offensively, but awful defensively. Instead of just accepting that some typings will just ruin a Pokemon, this CAP concept aims to take that "terrible typing", and find ways to fix it (usually via ability, movepool, or stats) to the point where the formerly terrible typing becomes the CAP's strong point! The reason this CAP could benefit OU is because a Pokemon who makes a "bad typing" into a great one could find many unique offensive and/or defensive niches that aren't currently found!

Questions To Be Answered

-What does it take for a Pokemon to overcome its "bad typing" so much that its typing becomes good? Are the stats the biggest contributer, is the ability the thing that saves it, does movepool make it a force, or is it a combination of the above?

-How does the typing makeover effect the Pokemon's playstyle? Does the Pokemon become a unique wall that uses its makeover to overcome its typing's normally fatal flaws, does the make over make a terrible offensive typing into a fearsome sweeper, does the makeover make it into a formidible combination of deffense and offense to a typing that brings it neither, or does the makeover bring forth something none of us see coming from the typing?

-Which resistances and immunities are the most relevant to the metagame? Sure, this concept is aiming to have a "bad typing" become good, but part of that will require the bad typing to have some key resistances and/or immunties to certain typings to defend against or set up on, while still having a very unorthodox competitive typing. This works the other way around too, what are the typings most relevant to hit super effectively or at least neutral?

-How will the rest of the OU metagame react to this extreme type makeover? Will Pokemon start carrying moves they normally wouldn't carry to break through a new defensive threat, will some Pokemon take on new defensive roles due to resisting the unorthodox STABs CAP 3 may carry? Or will This Pokemon, despite being a very real threat, not have many "custom made sets" to beat it, being more of a Pokemon that is a reaction to the metagame than causing a metagame reaction?

-Finally, how will this effect the teams CAP3 is on? Will this be the kind of Pokemon who needs a lot of support to become a threat, will this Pokemon be more of key team member to execute another strategy, or will this be the kind of Pokemon that's part of the glue that holds the team together?
Typing: Fire / Poison
Base stats: 95 HP / 45 Atk / 83 Def / 131 SpA / 105 SpD / 76 Spe
Abilities: Dry Skin / Illuminate / ???
 

Deck Knight

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#2
So yes, this will be a second flavor ability discussion. Discuss amongst yourselves if you think we've sufficiently covered flavor or not, or any other ideas you might have. Illuminate is pretty cool and undoubtedly flavor. What else you got?
 
#3
DW Unreleased Drought

No, really. There is one really cool flavor option that I don't think anyone has really thought about for this CAP... Until now. We have the option of making an ability our Dream World ability, and we have the option, as a community, of then making that ability unreleased. An unreleased Dream World ability is essentially a flavor ability, as it cannot be used in the playtest.

There's something unique about CAP 3 in that we have had the most intense weather discussions here, all in support or in opposition of something that never came to pass. There's a lot of legacy to be had by having an unusable Drought on this Pokemon; it essentially says to future CAP members that "We talked about Drought here, but it could not exist in its playtest because its members voted solidly against it." I think that's a very cool legacy for CAP 3 to leave behind with its flavor ability. This is not even factoring in that our artist totally prepared for Drought and made it look awesome. As far as flavor abilities go, I think it's pretty awesome, and would like to see it considered seriously for this.

Hopefully most of you see the coolness behind this idea. Cheers.
 
#4
IMO a good amount of flavour awesomeness was lost when Drought lost. Considering the "flavor abilities" that are left over at this point, there honestly isn't anything that makes much sense to me. Anything else would just be "because we can", and I think what I said in the OP is big enough in comparison not to do it. So it's Drought or bust (NTA) for me.
 
#5
I will once again be bringing Suction Cups to the table. I've mentioned the benefits of this as a flavour ability before, so I won't go into such detail in this post. Suffice it to say that snails tend to stick on things, and Suction Cups affords Mollux a niche that, while uncompetitive compared to Dry Skin, only one other typing could ever pull off. It fits the concept to a T and ultimately just makes sense.

The idea of Drought being an unreleased DW ability is cute and all, but honestly that feels more like you're trying to make up for it being voted against previously than anything... >_> I suppose it could affect a theoretical DW CAP metagame rather significantly, but I don't know if that's even a thing.
 
#6
I really like the "unreleased drought" idea and I think that's be very cool flavour wise!

But as an alternative I would like to bring Gluttony up for discussion.
Gluttony is almost equal to illuminate in terms of usefulness, because no one uses pinch berries. Also from more of a flavour perspective,Mollux is very similar to Shuckle who ALSO has gluttony iirc. We could even say that shuckles berry juice is inside the lava lamp!
Just thought gluttony deserved some support!
 
#7
This should be an opportunity to give it another decent ability, but not Drought. If anything, the previous ability polls show that the majority is in favor of not-Drought over Drought. Regenerator vs. NCA would have almost assuredly resulted in a Regenerator win, because people aren't looking to make a gimped mon, but clearly they're NOT interested in exacerbating the problem of the massive weather centralization of 5th gen by making Ninetales 2.0.

If anything, I think the most interesting argument for an ability I read in the other discussion thread was for Insomnia or Limber.

Fire typing renders WoW useless, Poison typing renders Toxic useless. And that's something that comes purely from the typing. Which, I was led to believe, is the whole point of this CAP. Take some not-so-great defensive typings, then use the merits of those, combine them with some abilities, and make something that works. Insomnia/Limber works in that sense, because now you're creating a triple-immune Pokemon, and largely based on the merits of the typing, instead of just throwing an ability that would make anything OU.

Would it be a very niche thing? Yeah, it would. But when the last ability discussion resulted in giving it something functionally useless, an ability that isn't great but at least has some use isn't such a bad option anymore.

Really, though, I think the Drought discussion needs to just be stopped now. Drought lost, and if the discussion ends up as Drought vs something again, it'll just result in another unsatisfactory outcome for Mollux.

In terms of flavor:

Limber: It's got a bunch of tentacles -- looks limber to me.
Insomnia: It's a lamp, so it wouldn't go to sleep ?_?
 
#8
I would like to go for Suction Cups because, well, it's a snail. And snails...suck the ground? You get the point. Also, DW Unreleased Drought would be all fine, but everything in the Dream World will eventually be released, so it WILL have Drought. Just looking at it from the in-game perspective, one can also hack it onto Mollux.

Also Drought+Dry Skin Mollux would be completely deadweight in ASB.
 
#9
Cute Charm

Mollux is cute, charming, honestly, if I didn't know better, I'd say game freak created the ability know this cap would happen! It's perfect, and I can see how coming in contact with that thing could cause infatuation on other pokemon.

that's all I have to defend my case, since this is a flavor discussion thread, so I don't think that competitive reasoning should be taken into account.
 
#10
Daenym, based on your response, you seem to have missed the part of my post that said that Drought would be unreleased. CAP 3 would not be able to use it at all, and thus would not replace Ninetales, or hit harder, or get a new competitive ability. Essentially it would be Drought for the sake of its flavor, and not for any of its competitive value.
 
#11
I'm going to push back on Suction Cups, mainly because if something has Dry Skin, how is it wet or sticky? From a flavor perspective, it doesn't make as much sense as some other options. Mollux also lacks suction cups as a (visible) part of its design.

I'd love to throw Tangled Feet back into the mix, because the idea of Mollux stumbling around on its tentacles is adorable, and confusion is so rare that even though it would be slightly more competitive than Illuminate, it won't be doing much. The only time confusion is sometimes in OU is when it comes from No Guard Machamp, and the chance that Mollux hits itself in confusion is higher than the chance of an opponent's attack missing.

A clarification question on Dream World Drought: Would Drought have the ability to be released in the future, or would we decide that it would remain an unreleased ability forever? If we decide on the former, what would be the rules for that? We don't know if Nintendo intends on releasing all Dream World abilities, but their existence in the coding implies that things like Regenerator Ho-oh will be released eventually.
 
#12
Daenym, based on your response, you seem to have missed the part of my post that said that Drought would be unreleased. CAP 3 would not be able to use it at all, and thus would not replace Ninetales, or hit harder, or get a new competitive ability. Essentially it would be Drought for the sake of its flavor, and not for any of its competitive value.
As far as I'm concerned, making it "unreleased" is pointless. It's just setting it up to be "released" later on, and then it turns into Ninetales 2.0 anyway. If anything, this comes across the same as "I made the stat spread with Drought in mind."

If it's going to get an unusable Drought, it might as well get not-Drought. There are plenty of abilities that are just fine for flavor purposes, certainly as much or more than Drought.
 

DetroitLolcat

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#13
I like Unreleased Drought, but I want to advocate to make sure this flavor ability does not have any competitive merit.

Suction Cups is competitive. It's a good ability that allows it to break stall very, very well. It would definitely merit usage on CAP3 over Dry Skin to an extent. Phazing immunity is a big deal. It allows us to stall out defensive Heatran, bulky Waters in the Sun, and generally allows CAP3 to operate as a stallbreaking tank.

Flame Body is obviously competitive, as the ability to Burn the opponent just by switching into a Close Combat is great.

Honestly I don't think we need three abilities. Let's just leave it at No Third Ability
 
#14
Clearly, a couple of things need to be clarified:

If the Hidden Ability is unreleased, it won't be allowed in the playtest. Beyond that, whether it's released or not does not matter for anything except maybe the CAP metagame. There is no "later on". Period. (You can also hack any ability onto a Pokémon, not just the abilities it has...)

Drought lost in a close poll as a competitive ability. That has nothing to do with it as a flavor ability, other than for reasons like what Rising_Dusk posted. In fact, Rising_Dusk used it as an argument FOR putting Drought in as unreleased flavor.

If you find yourself using competitive reasoning to support an ability, you should strongly consider rethinking it.
 
#15
I would like to see Drought the most. The main issue with it I could see is that is a very powerful ability. This Pokemon will be picking up the equivalent of +1 on all its Fire attacks if the weather doesn't get muddled with. Then again, Tyranitar is probably a good switch in to this anyway and can negate that boost and force a switch. For that reason, I couldn't really say yes or no about Drought. If anything else, I think Suction Cups makes an ideal candidate. It has some use, unlike Illuminate, but still doesn't tamper with the Pokemon's strength much.
 
#16
Now, this isn't my normal place of discussion, but I must say that I love the idea of unreleased Drought. The whole debate over Drought in previous polls can at least have an ironic twist in its eventual (lack of) use as an ability. I'm saying this wholly from a flavor standpoint, unlike some potential tertiary abilities that'd defeat the chosen Illuminate in use.

samtheman and Daenym: I'd figure Drought will not be released no matter what. There's coding for B/W pokemon with Dream World abilities, but they can't be gotten from Entralink. There was coding for an Arceus event in D/P/Pt, but that was left unreleased. Some stuff just remains unreleased.
 
#17
Once more, I'll quote Deck from the original flavour ability discussion.

Deck Knight said:
As far as what flavor means, an ability doesn't have to be useless, and I'd still like it to relate to the concept (i.e. it's typing relevant or uses advantages the typing brings), however it needs to be negligibly useful in comparison to Dry Skin, even if it does create a niche.
Let's pick this apart a little.

- An ability doesn't have to be useless

In other words, it's fine to give Mollux an ability that has some vague competitive merit (provided it's "negligibly useful in comparison to Dry Skin", which I'll get to in a minute).

- I'd still like it to relate to the concept

So our ability of choice should emphasize the good points of the Fire / Poison typing if possible, providing a role which not many other (if any) typings could pull off.

- It needs to be negligibly useful in comparison to Dry Skin, even if it does create a niche

Linking in with the first point. As long as it's not very good when compared to Dry Skin, it's fine.


Combining all these tells us that our third ability doesn't need to be something unreleased, or on par with Illuminate. Deck explicitly banned immunity abilities including ones like Limber, but there's no denying that abilities like Suction Cups and Tangled Feet should not be ruled out based on a vague competitive merit.
 
#19
if something has Dry Skin, how is it wet or sticky?
Croagunk has Dry Skin and it's an amphibian. Paras has Dry Skin, is a fungus, and also has Damp. Because the ability Dry Skin has a tragically misleading name.

Given the canonical application of Dry Skin to damp-skinned and water-loving Pokemon, Drought still strikes me as absolute nonsense in terms of flavour (Drizzle makes more sense, but I wouldn't vote for it). I'm all for Damp, but perhaps also Sticky Hold or Shell Armor. Or nothing. Flavour seems covered pretty well at this point, and we've dodged several bullets already, why invite more?
 

Layell

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#20
Hey Rising Dusk may I remind you that really nobody is supposed to know about dream world abilities that are unreleased, we only know because people have cracked open the game like an egg.

You're obviously trying to push this with the idea that eventually someone gives in, but I'm not so sure about drought, I might vote later.
 

DougJustDoug

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#21
For those of you considering Gluttony, have you ever seen a cone snail swallow a fish whole? Here's a look:


[youtube]HrgkqImgSK4[/youtube]

Yeah, Gluttony works for this pokemon.
 
#22
I'd like to bring up the question of how bad a thing it would be for Mollux to get something more useful than Illuminate. I mean, the whole point of flavor is to make clear of what characteristics the Pokemon has, right? Being able to see Illuminate in the list of its abilities should be enough to showcase Mollux's trait of being a lamp. "Hey, shouldn't a lamp be able to have Illuminate?" "Yeah, it has it, see?" "Oh, well that makes sense then." I'm not saying that we should give it something extremely viable, but I'm saying that we shouldn't close ourselves off from having another ability simply because Illuminate won a majority in the last poll. Simply having Illuminate as a choice is plenty flavorful. Let's not absolutely force a useless ability if we want to use it in the sun simply because it fits.

However, I think that whichever ability we choose next should have very little use beyond not being Illuminate. Flame Body can be practical with its resistance to Fighting-type moves and it's okay-ish Defense stat, for example. If we choose a 3rd ability, which I support, we should lean towards very, very mild ones.

As such, I'd like to open up Tangled Feet and Suction Cups once more. Both are extra abilities that aren't viable like Flame Body yet aren't just being mean like Truant and Defeatist. Sniper and maybe Insomnia also come to mind as mild alternatives.
 
#23
I don't get Suction Cups or Flame Body, even as far as flavor goes. It's not like Mollux even has any flames on it... Also, look at all the Pokémon that have Suction Cups. Suction Cups is not just about sticking to a surface; plenty of Pokémon do that and don't have Suction Cups. Octillery has limbs that are designed explicitly to suction onto a target, and Cradily is designed to anchor onto the seafloor. Mollux is neither of these and, as it so happens, neither are any of the other snail Pokémon. Tangled Feet is equally stupid imo. Everything is either a bird or Spinda, a Pokémon that is ALL ABOUT being dizzy.

At some point, I have to wonder if we're even trying to make Mollux make sense in Pokémon canon. And how are Insomnia and Limber not competitive, again?
 
#25
Tangled Feet is equally stupid imo. Everything is either a bird or Spinda, a Pokémon that is ALL ABOUT being dizzy.
I have to ask... why does it matter what currently has the ability? Besides, look over at my avatar. Pidgeot gets Tangled Feet, yet its feet can barely reach each other. Mollux's legs seem much easier to get tangled up and tripped over than Pidgeot's, no?
 
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