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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Sep 18, 2012.

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  1. Solstice

    Solstice

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    I feel like the best two typings that have been mentioned here today are Bug/Psychic and Electric/Ice. Both fill the credentials set out by bmb at the start, I'll refer to jas and srk for more info on those because of how well they have explained it, a refresher isn't really in order. One type that has yet to be mentioned so far that I've found I feel fits our credentials is Ice/Ghost. Also kudos to fryfrey, I used your formatting cause it's pretty.

    Passive Damage Weakness: Easily Applicable. Ice/Ghost
    is weak to Pursuit and Stealth Rock, with Spikes and Toxic Spikes as a threat as well. It is immune to Hail, but weak to Sandstorm. In terms of passive damage it really covers a lot of what we consider. It does however resist U-Turn so there is an exception in that sense.

    Good Offensive STAB Combo: Easily Applicable. The Ice/Ghost combo hits 6 types super-effectively, Grass, Ground, Flying, Dragon, Psychic, and Ghost. However there is a little issue, it is shut down by Steel types. Although
    many common steel types, Metagross, Jirachi, and Skarmory come to mind, are neutral against the other offensive type so it balances out fairly well.

    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: Easily Applicable. Ice is resisted by four types, Steel and Water being the primary two that will quickly stop spamming. Ghost has the Normal immunity giving it trouble, even if Normal isn't the most common typing. As well Dark and Steel shut it down pretty quickly as well. I'm sure it's safe to say that both can't be used endlessly.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: Applicable. This is rated Applicable because of the typing being weak to 5 types, and resisting 3 and being immune to 2. This seems like a perfect balance but the types being resisted aren't as common as the attacking types. Ice/Ghost is weak to Fire, Steel, Dark, Ghost, and Rock. It's safe to say your opponent will have those types on his team somewhere. The weaknesses here really do amplify the risk on this Pokemon. The resistances are Ice, Poison, and Bug, with a Fighting and Normal immunity. The Ice resist and the Fighting immunity are the best in terms of pros with this typing, although I wouldn't turn down the Bug resist any day.

    STAB on notably risky moves: Fair. This is pretty uneven really, it depends on how we're playing the Pokemon. Ice STAB is almost always Ice Beam and Ghost is almost always Shadow Ball. Neither is a risky move, both have excellent accuracy and extra effects. Ice has more options for a risky attacker in Avalanche, Icicle Spear,Blizzard, and possibly Icicle Crash and Frost Breath. Ghost has interesting options in Destiny Bond, Ghost Curse, Hex, and Shadow Force. Overall I would put it as a neutral stat.

    So to sum up, Ice/Ghost has a lot of good qualities that we should consider for this CaP, it definitely carries lots of risk but could also have some amazing rewards attached. Bug/Psychic and Electric/Ice would be equally as valid.
  2. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

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    The typing I would like to suggest is Grass-Flying. This typing is one only shared by none other than Shaymin- Sky (and jumpluff and tropius). It offers a few key resistances, a couple more weaknesses (including stealth rock) and has good offensive potential.

    Resistances: Fighting, Water, Grass (4x) and Ground (immune)
    You may notice that this is not a very high number of resistances but i think the more important aspect is the fact that it resists some very common attacking types, giving it great switch-in opportunities if played correctly. The problem with a pokemon that has a ton of resistances in terms of risk is that it requires less skill from the player. Of course the opportunity for reward should still be present which is why i think the balance of having a few common resistances is perfect for the concept. It also has a common priority resistance.

    Weaknesses: Ice (4x), Rock, Fire, Poison, Flying
    As far as weaknesses go the risk is amplified by having a resistance to stealth rock. On top of that, a 4x weakness to ice which has access to priority is very risky. However, these types are not quite as common for attacking moves and many can be be taken by other types. Steel for example resists all of these besides fire. With that being said, its stealth rock weakness will still keep it from wanting to switch in and out too much.

    Offense: Fighting, grass, bug, water, ground, rock all hit for se damage. steel and electric resist both stabs.

    Here is where the grass-flying typing can really shine. It hits many common types for super effective damage with its stabs so there is a great reward for successfully switching it in. However, it isn't able to just spam any attack as steel and electric are both common types in this metagame.

    The final and perhaps most important aspect of this typing that should be pointed out is that grass has an amazing support move pool so it could also be a great typing to pursue if we decide to use a fast somewhat frail support role for this cap.
  3. LockDown

    LockDown

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    @ MCBarrett: You forgot Jumpluff :)

    Personally, I am feeling Bug/Dragon or Bug/Psychic. DarkSlay really hit it on the head with the Bug typing, and Dragon fulfills the "risky moves" category while Psychic has more "risky weaknesses"
  4. Eagle4

    Eagle4

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    Although Bug seems to be the talking point here, I'm with crazyhair3 on Ice/Dark

    Weakness: Fighting x4, Rock, Steel, Bug, Fire
    Resistances: Ice, Dark, Ghost
    A unique typing, it poses many crippling weaknesses such as Stealth Rock, 4x Fighting Weakness, and these typing counters:

    Any Steel except Steel/Psychic, Steel/Ghost, Steel/Flying and Steel/Grass.
    Fire/Fighting
    Fire/Dark
    Water/Fighting
    Water/Dark

    However, it can fill in a niche as a revenge killer, with Ice Shard, Pursuit, etc, and has many offensive attacks to use. I'm going to copy fryfrey here:

    Passive Damage Weakness: Easily Applicable. Weak to Sandstorm, Hail, Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Mach-Punch, Spikes, Toxic Spikes

    Good Overall STAB Combo: Easily Applicable. Ice hits Grass, Ground, Flying, Dragon and Rock pretty hard, whilst Dark affects Psychic and Ghost. Overall, this typing will hit 28 OU pokemon super-effective with at least one STAB, out of a possible 59. Its notorious inferiors are Celebi, Salamence, Dragonite and Gliscor.

    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: Easily Applicable Ice's resistors are Steel, Fire, Water, and Ice. Dark's resistors are Dark, Fighting and Steel. Over half of OU is made up of Pokemon with at least one of those typing. Therefore, you cannot spam the STAB due to a superior pokemon being switched in.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: Easily Applicable Although not having the most weaknesses/resistances, it is rather the context in which the typing is categorised that makes this pokemon become easily applicable when talking about this attribute. Its Fighting, Rock and Fire weakness is prominent, and arguably Bug (Volcarona). Its resistances are few, but needed. It resists moves such as Ice Shard and Pursuit, which is needed for this concept.

    STAB on notable risky moves: Easily Applicable. Blizzard, Pursuit, Sheer Cold, Sucker Punch, Nasty Plot, Memento, Foul Play, Thief, Taunt, Torment, Switcheroo, Payback, Embargo.

    Anyway, any comments/criticism/feedback?
  5. RavensNation

    RavensNation

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    I like the idea of a Bug/Psychic Pokémon, but I love the idea of Bug/Dragon typing even more, and Birkal brought up some really good points concerning "risk". Art concepts for a typing like that ought to be pretty interesting as well... Anyways, the typing I want to bring up is Bug/Ground. It's a very balanced type combination, both, offensively and defensively. The risk of this typing would come, not from the Pokémon's ability (or lack thereof) to switch into an attack, but rather from what you decide to do once the Pokémon hits the field, like Birkal said.

    Weakess to passive damage: Takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock (meaning it won't be crippled by simply switching into battle) and hit by Spikes; it's hampered by Toxic and Toxic Spikes; the typing (which is understandably geared more towards the physical side of offense) is vulnerable to burn status, especially coming from Scald; also takes damage from Hail.

    Good overall STAB combination: Awesome STAB combination that hits everything except Flying-types for at least neutral damage. It also gets a very notable super-effective hit on the ever-present Steel-type Pokémon of OU, although the two most common (Ferrothorn and Scizor) only take neutral damage from Ground-type attacks. Ground STAB is a terror against any non-ballooned Heatran.

    STAB that can't realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: Unless its secondary Ground-typing grants it access to Rock-type moves, a Bug/Ground Pokémon would be completely walled by almost any Flying-type Pokémon, most notably Salamence and Gyarados, who can then proceed to set up while the CAP switches out.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: Very balanced in this regard. The typing is weak to Fire, Water, and Ice, all of which a pretty common attacking types. Most notably, however, is its weakness to Flying-type pokémon, since (again considering it doesn't have access to Rock-type moves) it'd be hard-pressed to deal any substantial damage against them. Has two key resistances to Ground- and Fighting-type attacks, which can potentially grant it good opportunities to come into the battle.

    STAB on notable risky moves: Considering its inability to hit Flying-type Pokémon, Earthquake is a risky move to use with this Pokémon as it can potentially lead to a set-up sweep by an opposing Salamence or Gyarados. Megahorn is obvious due to its low accuracy, but without a coverage move for Flying-type Pokémon, Earthquake is the quintessential risky move for a Pokémon with this typing. Another Pokémon that can ruin the fun for this typing is Gengar, as it can come in on both Earthquake (Levitate) and Megahorn (double resistance) and proceed to demolish.

    Ehh... my post is all over the place, but... well here it is. Bug/Ground.

    EDIT: Add Gliscor and Skarmory to the list of Pokémon that you run the risk of losing to with this typing combination. Also, I might have poll-jumped a little... We can assume if it has Ground as one of its types it will also come with Earthquake, right? OK.
  6. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

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    yo tropius all up in this grass flying action

    i'm liking bug/dark and bug/ghost the most so far but a part of me (i know this isn't actually a relevant concern in the process) is like "cap has 3 ghosts and 2 darks already..." so i'm probably leaning towards bug/psychic, and then bug/dragon, after those two. any of them could work though. regardless of what we choose to accompany it, bug seems to be a really fun choice going forward.

    and as for ice/dark, my question is what stops us from making a second weavile? i mean obviously not all ice/darks are automatically going to be equivalent to weavile and it would be an unfair generalization to claim so, but weavile is a very good example of what we're aiming for in this cap already - risky movepool with pursuit, and in exchange for its fabulous speed it has massive weaknesses all over the place. just putting it on your team is taking a serious risk already. i feel like there is definitely some overlap there, unless we end up making a bulky ice/dark type.
  7. Skore

    Skore

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    If no-one is getting behind Ice/Fighting (you philistines!) then I would certainly throw my hat behind bug/dragon as I feel the Flygon line should have gone down that route! But I still feel that Ice/Fighting gives us the needed risk with the potential for excellent payoff.
  8. Eagle4

    Eagle4

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    Dang, I spend 1 hour writing my post and you prove me wrong in 4 sentences. SO far I support Fighting/Rock and Bug/Dark, due to reasons already stated.
  9. Quark

    Quark

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    @ MCBarrett and LockDown: Tropius too :)

    I would like to put forward Psychic/Flying.

    The typing has an immunity to forms of spikes, but every other passive damage can hit it. Stealth Rocks is super effective to it along with pursuit if we are counting that.

    the typing has a good STAB in psychic type, with psyshock. both Stabs have super effective coverage over fighting types, and it can hit grass, bug and poison types super effectively as well. Steel resists it, but the super effective hits can allow it to hit many of the common steel types neutrally.

    The STAB could be easily be stopped by a steel type, or a dark type or rock type. Psychic could also switch in and stop a sweep.

    The type has weaknesses to rock, dark, electric, bug (U-turn), ghost and ice. A lot of weaknesses, but the typing resists the common fighting type, is immune to ground, and resists bug, grass, and psychic.

    For risky moves, Brave bird and Acrobatics stand out, and psychic has a lot of set up moves and Role Play, Trick, and Mirror Coat.

    I also liked the ideas of using Bug typing and like Bug/Dragon and Bug/Psychic and Bug. I think Bug/Flying could also be interesting with the 4x weakness to stealth rock. I agree that bug is a good type for the CAP, but I feel something based around Flying type would work well too.
  10. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

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    I've been noticing a lot of Bug and Dragon-type support, and frankly I'd like to say that I'm actually opposed to them. Neither really have any extremely risky moves, with Bug's being Megahorn and Dragon's being Outrage and Draco Meteor.

    Megahorn has a below-average accuracy, but otherwise there is little risk involved in actually using it due to its sheer power. Moves like Focus Blast and Hydro Pump have even less accuracy, and even then, when have you honestly seen someone make it a major point that the Pokemon who get those moves are making a big risk? If this is said about 70% and 80% moves as is, then why on earth would Megahorn be considered risky? Again, if that's honestly the "riskiest" move Bug-types have to offer, then I don't think Bug-types have a lot to offer in this project. In addition, we already have Volcarona, a Bug-type that many consider to be risky to switch in but very much worth it if it does. In the end, it comes down to Bug-typing be rather unnecessary for this CAP. Somewhere, bugmaniacbob is planning my demise...

    Meanwhile, we have all seen the capabilities of Dragon-types. As a type, it isn't actually all that risky. You get 4 elemental resistances, only two weaknesses, and the highest stats on average in the game. It's weak to Dragon-type moves, which are mainly on other Dragons, and Ice-type moves, which OU almost never sees a Pokemon get STAB on. Dragon-type moves themselves are easily the most spammable once a team lacks a Steel-type. Outrage is a simple "Boost, hit like a truck, switch on the fatigue" strategy, and often doesn't provide a lot of risk for whatever it is distributed to (which, let's face it, anything that seriously uses Outrage also has Dragon Dance). Draco Meteor is a simple Choice Scarf move. It has 90% accuracy and halves SpA after its use, but that never becomes a risk unless for whatever reason you can't switch. Overall, Dragon-types do have risk, but it's already clear that their reward is beyond their risk, given how many we see in OU.

    So tl;dr, I believe Bug-types and Dragon-types wouldn't take us as far in learning about risk in OU when we have already seen the main extent of those types.

    Normal, Fire, Electric, Psychic, Ice, and Dark are all the "risky" types as far as I'm concerned, as each has a weakness more crippling than Bug or Dragon. As I said before, Fire/Electric has the most potential in this CAP, being both full of niches but very risky to use as a switch-in.


    • Passive damage weakness – Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sandstorm, Hail, Leech Seed... Yup, it's all there.
    • Good overall STAB combo – Able to handle nearly most walls 1-on-1, as well as take on nearly any Steel-type for Super-effective damage. That sounds pretty good to me.
    • STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact – Flash Fire, Motor Drive, Lightningrod, Ground-types, Gastrodon... How many more counters do we need?
    • Lots of weaknesses and resistances – Weak to Water, Rock, and Ground; Resistant to Ice, Steel, Grass, Bug, Fire, Electric, and Flying. The former set is extremely common and risky to switch into, while the latter are very useful to resist.
    • STAB on notable risky moves – Fire Blast, Overheat, Flare Blitz, Inferno, V-Create, Blast Burn, Eruption, Wild Charge, Volt Tackle, Thunder, Zap Cannon, and Charge Beam, all with the risk of the opponent switching in something that won't even be hurt by them. If that's not risk, then what is?
    Since it follows all the criteria with flying colors, at the very least Fire/Electric should be slated.
  11. sax king

    sax king

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    I'm going to keep this short and to the point.

    Ice/Rock
    Green = very good
    Orange = okay
    Red = bad

    Passive damage weakness – Weak to SR, vulnerable to both spikes and toxic spikes, not immune to any status.
    Good overall STAB combo – Some of the best offensive types in the game, incredible SE coverage
    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact – While they are great STABs, its most powerful moves cannot really be spammed. If we take the physical route, then Stone Edge can't really be spammed and is pretty unreliable. However, it will have pretty spammable Ice moves. The advantage is that there are a lot of important defensive mons that resist Ice or Rock (Bulky waters and steels).
    Lots of weaknesses and resistances – I'm going to start this off by saying that these are the two types with the most weaknesses. It has two 4x weaknesses (Fighting and Steel, both priority moves), and four 2x weaknesses (Grass, Ground, Rock, Water). It doesn't have the best resistances, offering resistances to just Flying (Tornadus, most importantly), Ice, Normal, and Poison.
    STAB on notable risky moves -Stone Edge, Blizzard, Head Smash, Rock Wrecker, yeah I got this.
  12. jackm

    jackm

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    I'd like to point out that certain moves (we're looking at you, Megahorn) are being pointed out as "risky" moves for their type, when the only real risk involved is probability risk due to the accuracy. As some of us may recall, Pwnemon explicitly stated during the concept discussion that after conversing with BMB on the topic, it was decided between the two that probability risk was not going to be the basis of the project. Just saying.
  13. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

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    I would like to suggest Normal/Ground. It's weak to passive damage apart from sandstorm, its STABs have good synergy but both cannot be spammed, and are risky because of that. I an not good at making long posts, but I think In the realm of risk, Normal + Ground can't be beat. Psychic/bug also sound cool, though not quite as risky.
  14. Zalfi

    Zalfi

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    Alright so I'm gonna throw something out a bit different here:

    Electric/Dark

    Passive damage weakness: Good While it is not actually weak to anything, it is also hit by everything.

    Good Overall STAB combo:Good This is really the area where this typing might be too good. Electric and Dark have almost perfect neutral coverage for OU pokemon. That being said the combo is resisted by a small handful of pokemon, all of whom would probably have a good shot at using CAP4 as setup bait.

    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact:Okay Well like I said before the STABs are not resisted by a huge number of pokemon. However since in my head this category means "CAP4 is currently choice locked, how much negative impact is this gonna have on it", I would say that neither of these types works amazingly either.

    Lots of Weaknesses and Resistances:Good This typing comes with 5 resists, 1 immunity, and 3 weaknesses. While at first glance this seems to be eliminating risk, a closer look may say otherwise:

    x0: Psychic
    x.5: Electric, Flying, Ghost, Dark, Steel
    x1.5: Fighting, Ground, Bug

    None of the resistances are very common attacking types, but it does give CAP4 a good selection of potential switch ins. The weaknesses, on the other hand, are all fairly common attacking types, so this would force CAP4 to be careful about when it came in.

    STAB on notable risky moves:Okay On the Dark side it would have the Pursuit/Sucker Punch combo, and on the Electric side it has Wild Charge and Thunder. While this is not the best selection of risky moves, they are there.

    The biggest check against this is that the STAB coverage might be too good, but I think the defensive weaknesses balance the offensive pluses.
  15. generic name

    generic name

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    srk already got ice/elec, so ill just support that. In particular ice typing interests me because:

    It's weak to fire, fighting, rock, and steel so it can't casually come in and set up/attack
    SR do 1/4 and it doesn't provide an immunity to spikes or tspikes.
    It doesn't have enough resistances/immunities to have any way of working, so its secondary typing and ability would have to provide some resistances and immunities
    As an offensive type, ice hits dragon, flying, grass, and ground, which gives it good coverage
    Can ice be spammed? Not really, sp def rachi can switch in to pretty much any ice beam and mamo/cloyster are countered fairly well as well. (cloyster is actually a good example of what this poke could be)
    Stab on risky moves: Ice doesn't have any really risky moves (no blizzard doesn't count because it's just luck) so maybe it's secondary typing could do that as well.

    Im not proposing a typing, I just would like people to consider ice as part of a typing, as many already are.
  16. TerrickTerran

    TerrickTerran

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    I'm liking Rock/Fighting Ice/Fightingand Rock/IceAnything relying on rock moves definitely has high risk/reward. Ice is always good if underutilized and fighting bar Close Combat isn't that spammable but has some really nice moves.
  17. NonnieGrey

    NonnieGrey

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    Strange place to come out of ultimate Lurk Mode, but...

    I'd like to throw my backing to the Electric/Ice typing that was suggested earlier and I'm liking the Ice/Steel one as well. I was looking to table the former myself, but it's been on the back of my mind since the concept of risk was set up to be CAP4's theme and I wanted to see if I could come up with something better...

    So I'm going to toss the odd combination of Normal/Rock into the mix, though I'm willing to admit it may well be subpar for the purpose.

    ==============

    (Passive damage weakness)
    Well, we're resistant to sand (and gain benefit from it), but that's it. Neutral to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to Hail, both kinds of Spikes, and all status effects.

    (Good overall STAB combo)
    Neutral coverage doesn't get much better than Normal, but it comes with the hefty price of no super effective coverage at all... and having to rely on Rock STAB for super-effective coverage and gap-filling is dubious at best, even if it does hit quite a few types. Steel stops it cold.

    (Lots of weaknesses and resistances)
    Running on Rock's weaknesses and resistances plus Ghost immunity and Fighting weakness... Pretty much all the popular moves hurt bad. Then again, it's not terribly different from what Tyranitar has to stare at.

    (Complete list)
    x2
    Water
    Grass
    Ground
    Steel

    x4
    Fighting

    x0.5
    Normal
    Fire
    Poison
    Flying

    x0.25
    NOTHING

    x0
    Ghost

    (STAB on notable risky moves)
    When I think risky Normal-type move, I think Facade. There's plenty of recoil out there in Normal as well, plus good old Hyper Beam. It would probably be harder to list Rock-type moves that don't qualify as risky, even if it is just accuracy woes.

    ==============

    I suppose my biggest concern with Normal/Rock is that it may wind up bringing a little too much risk to the table and not enough reward. Then again, maybe those concerns are unfounded. There's still a lot of work to do to give this 'mon its perfect balance. Type is just one facet.
  18. I've seen both Psychic and Ice suggested separately, but... has anybody suggested Psychic/Ice together?

    It's weak to Pursuit, U-Turn, and Stealth Rock, and it's susceptible to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sandstorm, and pretty much everything else but Hail (lol).

    It's STAB combo hits Dragon, Fighting, Flying, Grass, Ground, and Poison super-effectively, which I'm pretty sure covers a good chunk of OU. It's only resisted in OU by Starmie and some Steel types (Forretress, Genesect, Heatran, Jirachi, Magnezone, Metagross, Scizor), and half of those Steel types are also Bug types, which we would probably want to be scary to this Riskymon anyway considering that it's weak to U-Turn and other Bug type moves. At the same time, the presence of Dark types and Steel types is clearly enough to keep the combination from being near spammable.

    The down side is that it's weak to seven types: Bug, Dark, Fight, Fire, Ghost, Rock, and Steel. To make matters worse here, it only resists itself, Ice and Psychic.

    As far as risky moves go, we have Psycho Boost for Psychic STAB, and Avalanche, Ice Ball, and Ice Burn for Ice STAB. Not the best of selections, but I think that it's passable. Avalanche is probably too risky considering the grand array of weaknesses, but the great thing about Ice STAB when it comes to these risky moves is that there are no Pokemon immune to Ice.

    Okay, so I'm not as confidant about this anymore after listing out the weaknesses, resistances, and risky STAB options. It sounded like it fit well at first because of being the only possible typing besides Psychic/Bug to be weak to all of Pursuit, Stealth Rock, and U-Turn, but especially listing out the weaknesses and resistances makes me think this would never get the chance to switch in, at least not without some kind of immunity-granting ability like Flash Fire. Psychic/Ice might still be worth considering, though, if we feel like being especially... let's say "brave".

    Edit: Oh, I see now that Espeon65 did bring this up. It does sound good at first, I agree, and it fulfills a lot of the criteria, but it just fails so badly at the bullet point about weaknesses and resistances that I don't see it being seriously considered.
  19. vroomvroom918

    vroomvroom918

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    I posted a few ideas earlier, but now I'm going to throw my support behind just one of mine, that I don't see has been proposed: Dragon/Grass.

    Passive Damage Weakness: Easily Applicable Affected by pretty much everything - both spikes, neutral stealth rock, painful weather. Also, U-Turn does SE damage

    Good Overall STAB Combo: Easily Applicable Dragon is a great STAB type, dealing neutral damage to everything but Steel and being SE against Dragon. Grass is good against those pesky Water types, as well as Rock and Ground, two good offensive types. Otherwise though, Grass is crap. Which leads me to the next part...

    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: Easily Applicable Okay, maybe Dragon. But if we watch the movepool, you can't spam Dragon. Grass can be difficult to spam, as it's resisted by SEVEN types (yeah, ridiculous), as well as Sap Sipper, which adds to risk/prediction.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: Easily Applicable This typing has plenty of resistances: 0.5x damage from Ground, and 0.25x damage from Electric, Water, and Grass. To balance this out, Grass's horrible defensive nature yields 4x damage to Ice, and 2x damage from Bug, Flying, Poison, and, of course, Dragon. Ice Shard will probably kill you.

    STAB on notable risky moves: Easily Applicable Petal Dance, Leaf Storm, Wood Hammer, Outrage, Draco Meteor, and sorta Dragon Tail (Low Priority) and Dragon Rush (Low Accuracy)

    I think this typing has a lot of the aspects that we are looking for. It has a few excellent resistances, and a crucial weakness mixed with a few other potentially common ones. Grass is very difficult to spam STAB, and yet both types have good risky STABs. The passive damage is all neutral, so it won't tear to you shreds, but you should still worry about it. Burn and paralyze still affect it, so don't worry about that.

    Slap a risky ability on this sucker, and you have yourselves a very risky CAP4 with a very high reward :toast:
  20. YuuchyShi

    YuuchyShi

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    Aug 12, 2012
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    I'm thinking something like Normal/Ice. Normal doesn't add much to ice's resists, only adding an immunity to ghost. It does give boost Ice's weakness from 2x to 4x, so there's something. Ice doesn't help much with Normal's fighting weakness, and normal doesn't do much to mitigate the ice resistance steel has. Ice keeps every weakness it has. The rest I'll use those five important things BMB mentioned.

    Passive damage weakness: -1/4 every time it switches in with SR on the field, takes damage from both kinds of spikes, leech seed, and sandstorm. Sun boosts fire, rain boosts water, and they both boast an resistance to ice. It can be burned, toxic'd, slept, paralyzed, and frozen, though the last one isn't going to happen much. It is neutral to U-turn, Volt Switch, and Pursuit.

    Good Overall STAB Combo: Well... Normal/Ice can... uh... do great damage to... ah... Nothing?

    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: Had to copy and paste that one. Well anyway... The last bullet addresses this, but I'll state some things that didn't apply to that one. You can spam the normal side of the spectrum if you've already gotten rid of Ghosts, Steels, and Rocks, although (if it's not a choice set) you could throw on some coverage and you're good in terms of type coverage. But honestly, who spams a normal move?

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: On the weaknesses side, ice doesn't get anything new. It does get a buffer on it's ability to switch in, though. Just switch it in on a Ghost move.

    STAB on notable risky moves: Stab on something with a bad side effect? Giga Impact. Hyper Beam.

    Well, that doesn't really fit a bit of the criteria, but I spent around 5 minutes typing that, so I'm not going to erase it. If anyone can see something good about that typing, well, perhaps you could say it. Because that one was actually ok, I'm going to suggest Normal/Dark. That typing- You know, I'm just going to skip to the 5 important things.

    Passive damage weakness: 12% on SR (I think), both spikes, leech seed, all weather (that deals damage), and U-turn. Hit normally by Volt Switch, resistance to pursuit.

    Good overall STAB combo: Normal/Dark can hit everything for neutral except Steel, which is commonly seen, but easily ignored with a coverage move. Or the amazing reward that will come in another category (trying not to poll-jump).

    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: The typing is basically: See a steel? Switch out!

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: Both the typings I've said so far have a unbroad range of weaknesses and resistances. Hit hard by bug and fighting, not hit at all by Psychic and Ghost, resistance to Dark. This gives this guy a huge amount of chances to switch in, but not a lot of chances to stay in. A steel or a fast fighting type (Mienshao or Mach puncher/vacuum waver) would kill this guy faster than a fire fang would kill a ferrothorn. Unfortunately, this typing doesn't do much in this section.

    STAB on notable risky moves: Sucker Punch, Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, Pay Day, Explosion, Selfdestruct, Payback, Covet.
  21. vonFiedler

    vonFiedler GAMG GRGAK
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    Risky Moves

    Risky moves was something I wanted in the concept assessment, but I see a lot of people who don't really understand the concept. Certainly Outrage is not a risky move. Not when it comes to making a team. Outrage is one of the best moves in the game and you need only eliminate the Steel types on an opposing team for it to lose all risk, which many strategies compensate for. Dragon in general is an awful type for this concept, it's historically tried, true, and damn consistent.

    On the other hand while moves like Stone Edge have a certain risk in luck being a factor, haven't we already said that we do NOT want luck to be the risk here?

    Second, I don't want Stealth Rock to be the "risk" this Pokemon takes for a variety of reasons. For one thing, some Pokemon already overcome an SR weakness. But mostly, my perfect example of a risk Pokemon, Honchkrow, is largely held back by SR. If an SR weakness is incidental of the right typing (see below) so be it, but it shouldn't be a cause for typing.

    Sucker Punch is a risk because in every single fight, at every step, you risk it failing. You risk the opponent using a non-attack move which may leftovers them just enough to survive that punch, or allow them to sub for free. You risk giving the opponent a free switch in. Even 1 on 1 Sucker Punch almost universally leads to mind games.

    Focus Punch is a risk specifically without access to substitute or things like spore. Sucker Punch / Focus Punch itself is a really cool combo, one foiled by non-attacks and the other foiled by attacks. Even without Sucker Punch (or with it) making naked Focus Punches work is absolutely a worthy goal given our concept, the risk and return are both high but we can find ways to make it manageable.

    Given that I'm going for Dark/Fighting. Yes, I know we already have a Dark/Fighting CAP. Should that stop us from making this CAP as true to its concept as possible?

    Secondary to that, I think the popular Bug typing would go well with Dark to offset its priority weakness. Granted that makes it SR weak and I don't like that, but I think the priority resistance is more important.
  22. DEMo_Gorgon47

    DEMo_Gorgon47

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    While I love a good Dragon and a good Bug type, I feel that combined for this particular concept they just wouldnt give the results we are looking for. A resistance to Water, Fighting, Ground, Electric, and Grass, some of the premier attacking types in the game is just too great that the weaknesses to Ice, Dragon, Flying, and Rock are not migitated enough. And if one were to take the Stealth Rock weak card, well by the same token so is Salamence and Dragonite, but I wouldnt exactly call them "risky" to play with. It is a great typing for a different concept; but not for a high risk high reward style.

    Actually, Dragon in general just isnt risky.

    Instead I think we should look elsewhere. At first I wanted to say a Fire/Bug. But then I remembered Volcarona already exists... So then I thought hey, why not Fire/Flying. But again, that is along the same lines as Volcarona. (In all honesty, we would probably just be making another Volcarona.) But Fire is just such a risky typing: Outside of Ice and Rock, it may be one of the worst defensive typings. And because its been thrown around so much, I decided to add Psychic.

    Typing: Fire/Psychic

    While immediately one might jump to the conclusion that this will be just another Victini, I will argue that. Victini has great stats across the board, being able to take hits like Celebi while dishing out damage like Starmie can. Our CAP wouldnt be so well rounded: and instead be very focused on one side of the spectrum. But what this type also allows is for us to create a set for a support Pokemon. Psychic lends itself to support, while fire has resistances and a movepool that add to that to have 3 effective sets: a risky supporter (like Final Gambit or Memento), a dangerous but difficult to use Set-Up Sweeper, or a hole-punching Choice Abuser (or abused depending on if you are looking at the risk or reward aspect)

    Passive damage weakness: Check. Weak to Stealth Rock, all forms of spikes, both Hail and Sand Storm, Leech Seed, Paralysis (crippling), Sleep, and Toxic. Of course, it is immune to Burnimg and Freezing, but that isnt too bad when compared to what harms it.

    Good overall STAB combo: Check. What Fire lacks in defense it makes up in offensive prowess. Being able to get boosted from the sun, hitting 4 types super effectively on its own, and some key resistances. Psychic has decent neutral coverage, is super effective against Fighting (and Poison, but who really cares about that), as well as a key resistance to Fighting and Psychic to some extent. In total that is 6 types covered super effectively, while being stopped pretty cold by Heatran, the Latis, and bulky Water-types.

    Resistance wise, it great for resisting 6 types: Fire, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Fighting, and Steel. While not all of those are used all the time, they are good enough to get by and not making switching in impossible.

    Weakness wise, it is hard for this Pokemon. Rain being around and a Water weakness makes life hard. In total it has 5 relatively common weaknesses. Rock, Ground, Water, Ghost, and Dark. Meaning it is weak to Pursuit, and still hit neutrally by U-Turn. It does resist many of the common priority attacks, but it can still be hurt Super-effectively by Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, and Aqua Jet (which when rain boosted would destroy it)

    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: Check. Like I said above, this typing can be very dangerous, but is stopped cold by several key threats. Namely the ubiquitous Bulky Water-types, Heatran, and the Lati twins, Tyranitar, Starmie, Houndoom (lol) etc. Meaning it will need to rely on unSTABed and possibly weak coverage moves or setting up/choice items to get around these checks/counters.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: Check. Again, as I have already said, this typing has key weaknesses and resistances to common types that range from all sides of the spectrum, meaning it can easily be tailored to not only go an offensive route, but also the support route. 6 resistances and 5 weaknesses, both groups relatively common make for a great Pokemon that can be utilized in any risky role.

    To re-emphasize:

    Weaknesses: Water, Ground, Rock, Ghost, Dark

    Resistances: Fire, Grass, Steel, Ice, Psychic, Fighting

    STAB on notable risky moves: Check. We've established that Psychic lacks "risky" attacking options outside of Psycho Boost and the 90% accurate Zen Headbutt, but in truth the risk of Psychic attacks is in using them. Resisted by Steel and Psychic-types while not being able to hit Dark-types gives the opponent plenty of opportunities to switch in against you. Though, it may get Hypnosis, allowing for an interesting support move.

    Fire on the other hand has more options. Eruption is an example, as it relies on health. Fire Blast because of its less-than-stellar accuracy. The favorite Flare Blitz, which has aweful recoil. V-Create and Blast Burn because of their nasty after effects (lowering stats and recharging respectively.) Lava Plume/Will-o-Wisp for a support Pokemom because the former isnt a guarnteed burn while the latter has shaky accurcy.

    Truthfully, I think this is the way to go, as it encompasses all the aspects of this concept that we wish, while balancing out weakness with resistances and while proportioning risk with reward.
  23. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

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    i think this is true for the psychic typing in general and that's why i don't really like it for this cap. psychic has exactly one thing going for it: it performs well (at the very least, solidly) against most fighting types, in a vacuum. it's a terrible typing otherwise. it has very little reward to offer in exchange for the risk. the only way i can see it working is if we do what game freak has done with the psychics that already exist: give it a huge movepool and very solid ability. i find it hard to mesh that with the concept of this CAP.

    i feel some slight agreement with grs cousin in that dragon is not an especially risky typing in and of itself. we'd have to make sure that it'd only be able to abuse its dragon typing with the riskiest of moves (draco meteor/outrage... and as von notes, there's not too much risk involved there anyway) in order to prevent dragon from being the falcon punch of its typing.

    as for bug though, i don't feel much risk in its movepool so there i agree, but in terms of typing, it does a very good job of balancing risk and reward. i also think it's easier to fiddle with movepool than it is with typing, seeing as movepool is so granular. i am aware that this is really an overly generalizing example, but just throwing sucker punch onto its movepool as an afterthought would already crank up the risk - many many mons run unstabbed sucker punch so it's not like that choice would be ignored.

    finally i will agree that bug is not the only option, i'm liking ice and starting to warm up to grass. just that it's the one i like the most. it's just, like, my opinion, man

    and eagle, no hard feelings =P
  24. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    LOL Bob is going to hate me for this by adding yet another option:

    Deck Knight's case for Electric/Psychic

    Passive damage weakness Check. – SR, sandstorm, spikes, even U-turn or Pursuit, whatever it might be

    While Electric/Psychic doesn't have an SR weakness, it is susceptible to all forms of passive damage as well as Sandstorm, and it combines a Volt Switch resistance with a U-turn weakness, and has a weakness to Pursuit, meaning if you select a switch poorly, you can be punished.

    Good overall STAB combo Check. – that means it should have both a wide coverage over the OU metagame and
    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact – That means no dragons (oh fine if you want)

    Psychic and Electric are not resisted by any single type, and they score super-effective hits against large numbers of Bulky Waters and Fighting types. Combined with Fighting coverage it effectively deals with Ferrothorn and Magnezone, two Steel-types that resist the combination, or it can have Fire coverage for Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Metagross, and Specially Defensive Jirachi. Both attacks have a type immune to them (Ground and Dark, respectively)

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances Check. – It should be a risk to switch in, but that doesn't mean it should be impossible to do so

    Psychic/Electric have no overlap on the type chart, so the resistances of Electric (Electric, Flying, Steel) and Psychic (Fighting, Psychic) are both represented, as well as the weaknesses (Ground, Bug, Ghost, Dark). Similarly, the super-effective coverage (Water, Flying, Fighting, Poison) hits a few key target types, but is not overwhelming..

    Notably, this combination produces a resistance to the Fighting/Flying combination of Tornadus-T, while leaving CAP4 vulnerable to U-turn, so what you switch in on can significantly impact CAP4's Performance.

    STAB on notable risky moves Not really. – eg. Sucker Punch, Focus Punch, anything with a negative effect in essence (though I don't really like Sucker Punch but whatever)

    What Electric/Psychic offers is a STAB that can feed off of Rain but is otherwise inaccurate (Thunder) and a STAB Special attack that can break physical walls in Psyshock. It resists the two most common priority attacks, Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, but is weak to Sucker Punch. Since Fighting tends to cover it so well, a more physical variant could potentially use SubPunching very effectively as a payoff for risk.
  25. No, most of the problems with Psychic/Ice are caused by Ice being so awful defensively, not by any problems with Psychic. Psychic actually fits the concept pretty darn well on its own, with the possible exception that it's only risky move is Psycho Boost.

    I will say, though, that I'm agreeing that Dragon doesn't sound like a good idea for this CAP. Maybe the explanations for it are going over my head, but I'm just not seeing the risk behind it. Just because some moves have a bit of a downside doesn't automatically make the STAB risky, especially when nothing is immune to it and only one type resists it.

    Also, as a side note, I hope that this doesn't come across as too bitchy, but please use proper capitalization in your posts. It makes reading them much easier. This is a forum, not a text message.
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