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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Sep 18, 2012.

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  1. Admiral_Stalfos19

    Admiral_Stalfos19

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    I've been thinking about this for a while now, but I'd like to advocate for Electric/Ground, since some of the better ones are taken already

    Passive damage weakness: Meh
    The only thing Electric/Ground has going for it in terms of strength is a Stealth Rock resistance and Sandstorm immunity. It's susceptible to everything else, and that includes priority attacks not name Bullet Punch.
    Good overall STAB combo: Easily Applicable
    We all know how good EQ is, so let's just skip that part and talk about how Electric attacks cover it. They actually seem to tackle Flyers and Levitators quite decently, and also help this Pokemon tackle bulky Waters... not named Gastrodon, that is.
    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: Applicable
    Gliscor and Landorus are biggies in stopping this STAB combo cold, as are Grass-types, however few there are that function effectively in OU. Ground-types can also waltz in with an Air Balloon, forcing this Pokemon to run coverage just to pop it.
    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: Applicable
    Notable resistances include Rock (Stealth Rock) and Steel (Bullet Punch), in addition to an immunity to Electric, which renders this thing invulnerable to Thunder Wave. A Flying resist helps against Hurricane, but the Poison resistance sees no use. In terms of weaknesses, Water, Ice and Ground all see a ton of usage, making this Pokemon risky to maintain on the field. An additional Grass weakness doesn't help matters.
    STAB on notable risky moves: Applicable
    Firing off ANY Electric attack can result in Volt Absorb, Lightning Rod and Motor Drive activating, which is a big boon on any opponent. Wild Charge is risky in and of itself since the user takes damage, and Charge Beam not only has major power issues, but also the problem of not always giving the user the Special Attack boost, which is the main reason why it's being used in the first place. Ground attacks wouldn't be considered risky in general if it weren't for the number of Flyers and Levitators in OU, but a Technician boosted Bone Rush can out-damage EQ if it hits 3 or more times, as well as potentially breaking Subs.
  2. vroomvroom918

    vroomvroom918

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    A comment about all the people that are saying Dragon isn't risky:

    I agree with what you are saying regarding the fact that it's tried and true. What's stopping a Dragon typed CAP4 from being safe and not risky? Here's a few reasons why Dragon will make CAP4 not risky:

    Dragonite takes half damage at full health, so he could never withstand an attack or return with his puny 134 Atk or measly 100 SpA. Haxorus has an even more pathetic 147 Atk, and couldn't destroy a Dragon CAP4, which would be too difficult anyway with his 97 speed. And then Hydreigon has only 125 SpA and 100 Atk, so ha can't do anything either. Lati@s doesn't have good SpA either, and their defenses can't hold up to anything, and their speed is snail-like. Salamence only has 130 Atk, which is absolutely pathetic, meaning he can't do anything either. The only Ice-types in OU, Cloyster and Mamoswine, can't use Ice Shard or any other Ice type move, so they clearly can't counter a Dragon.

    For those of you who couldn't tell, that was sarcasm. Dragon is risky because of Dragon. All of the Dragons in OU are major sweeper threats, and could easily smash Dragon CAP4 if given the chance. At the same time, Dragon CAP4 could do the same, embodying the high-risk-high-reward concept in the first place. The OU Ice types (not counting Abomasnow, who could get in a crazy Blizzard I guess, although he is not necessarily used for that) have Ice Shard, giving an easy revenge kill on CAP4 after it's been weakened by its risky moves or other Pokemon.
    (Edit: I stand corrected, Abomasnow does get Ice Shard. Either way, he can set up Blizzard to punish Dragon CAP4 for being Dragon)

    Long story short, Dragon can be a risky type if we don't make a pseudo-legendary/actual legendary, as most OU Dragons are. And I assume we're not
  3. Gerard

    Gerard

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    I have to give my support for Electric/Psychic

    To add to what Deck Knight already said, Electric/Psychic has not really a lot of rsiky moves, but instead has to carefully select what move he wants to pack, Psyshock & Psychic changing what you might get walled by, using Thunder over Thunderbolt means it gets to be more dependant to Rain in exchange of the extra power and paralysis chance, not to mention you might help an oposing Thundurus, using Psycho Boost means he has to switch out (with a great risk of being Pursuited/Trapped), etc...

    You're also at great risk of being trapped by Dugtrio, who will easily revenge you unless CAP4 gets levitate, on top of the Pursuit users, and a lot of Scarf users such as Landorus, Hydreigon, Tyranitar & Terrakion, meaning you need to be careful, but at the same time you don't have to worry about being revenged by most common priority and can act as a great counter to the number of fighting and water type pokemon in OU
  4. Redjar

    Redjar

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    I like the idea of Rock/Dark

    Passive damage weakness: Applicable While it is immune to sandstorm it and resists Pursuit it is weak to U-turn, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Focus Punch, and Vacuum Wave. It also takes neutral damage to Voltswitch and is affected by both types of spikes.

    Good overall STAB combo: Applicable
    Rock is one of the best stabs out there and STAB Pursuit/Sucker punch is great.
    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: Applicable Gliscor, Terrakion, Conkeldurr Breloom, Donphan, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Skarmory(especially if it outspeeds with Roost). Most of these teams have two of these pokes if not more. True some of these mons are on Rain or Sun teams but both of those have STAB against Rock/Dark.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: Applicable
    Weaknesses include all priority except shadow sneak (in OU?) and Extreme Speed. Weaknesses :X4 fighting, x2 water, grass, ground, bug, steel
    Resistances: dark, ghost, flying, fire, poison
    Immunity: Psychic

    STAB on notable risky moves:Meh
    Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Stone Edge are all that come to mind here.
  5. BlueStar99

    BlueStar99

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    I think Grass/Dragon just like vroomvroom918's might be a good idea.
    Passive damage: Bad
    It's affected by hail, sandstorm, all types of status except for Leech Seed.
    Good STABs: Great.
    Grass can break through the omnipresent bulky water and ground and rock types (not very important). The dragon type murders everything except for steels.
    Spammable STAB: Not really.
    The dominance of steels and dragons walls grass and the aforementioned steels walls dragon.
    Weaknesses and resistances: Counterbalances
    This typing has a host of resistances thanks to good defensive typing. On the flip side, it has a horrendous weakness to ice, followed by flying, bug, poison, and dragon. Thanks to the grass typing, some resistances turn into neutral like fire.
    Notable risky moves: Some
    Draco Meteor, Outrage, Wood Hammer, Solarbeam, Petal Dance, Dragon Tail.

    In conclusion, this typing will provide good STABS with risky moves, but compromised by a horrible defensive type.
  6. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    As Akela mentioned, Fire/Water would be an interesting combination for this CAP. I’m going to go into a bit more detail on this.

    Passive damage weakness (applicable) this type is vulnerable to all forms of passive damage, but is noteably 2x weak to stealth rock which means that the player cannot haphazardly switch in CAP 4 on a whim.

    Good overall STAB combo (Kind of) As far as super effective coverage goes, Fire/Water has it pretty good. Between them they hit seven types for super effective damage, namely Bug, Fire, Grass, Ice, Ground, Rock, and Steel. The Steel types are the most noteable on this list given how omnipresent they are in this metagame. This CAP would be able to hit all steel types for supereffective damage, including Heatran, while simultaneously threatening a large array of Pokémon including threats like Tyranitar and Virizion. On the flipside, it’s STABs are easily sponged by Dragons and Water Types, but its coverage can be rounded off with Return or the appropriate hidden power depending on whether we take the physical or special route.

    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact(Applicable) Like I mentioned above, the STAB combination is sponged by both Dragons and Water Types. On average, teams carry 1.5 Dragons/Water Types, so opponents would have several options to handle this CAP’s STABs, so blindly firing off Waterfalls or Fire Blasts would be a bad idea.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances (applicable) –Fire/Water is weak to Electric, Ground, and Rock type attacks, all of which are common coverage types in the metagame, so CAP will rarely have a truly safe switch in. However, the typing does give CAP a 2x resistance to Bug and a 4x resistance to Fire, Ice, and Steel, all of which would provide multiple switch-in opportunities considering the prominence of fire and water type attacks in this weather infested metagame and the popularity of scizor and volt-turn.

    STAB on notable risky moves (Kind of) I’m gonna exclude moves with imperfect accuracy here, because they don’t embody the risk we want to explore. Flare Blitz, Fire Spin, Overheat, Whirlpool. Clearly, Fire is the more risky typing of the two, but it should be noted that popular Pokémon are immune to Fire and Water type attacks thanks to their ability (Heatran and Gastrodon respectively). Anyways back on point. Should we choose to go down the physical attacking side, Flare Blitz would be the CAP’s most powerful STAB option. However, Flare Blitz does have an intrinsic risk in that it will quickly wear down CAP. Combine that with CAP’s SR weakness and CAP may not last too long into the battle if you choose to spam Flare Blitz. Overheat is like the fire type version of Draco Meteor, but for our purposes it probably won’t be used too much because Fire Blast is, for the most part the superior option.I’ve included Fire Spin and Whirlpool because they could potentially become risky options for our CAP, as it could allow CAP 4 to trap and eliminate certain key threats in much the same way as magma storm Heatran, but a mispredict could end up making CAP 4 somewhat useless/predictable for the rest of the game. But anyways, I think the major risk for CAP 4 in terms of its movepool, given this typing, would be Flare Blitz because the recoil/power could be definitive of the concept of risk vs reward.



    Couple Things I’d like to emphasize


    1. Yes, on the one hand there are a significant number of Pokémon that can handle CAP’s STAB combo. However, coverage can easily be rounded out with either Return or a hidden Power as mentioned above. Furthermore, the large number of Pokémon that can handle CAP’s STAB’s combined with its weakness to SR means that there is an added risk in sending CAP 4 onto the field as it may be easily forced out.
    2. This Typing would give CAP 4 three 4x resistances to common attack types like Fire, Ice, and Steel. Since we are aiming for a more offensive spread for this CAP with somewhat unimpressive defenses, it would probably help a ton to have several safe switch in opportunities that the 4x resistances would provide.
    3. Finally, a Fire/Water type would be able to get a STAB attack boosted in Both Rain and Sun, which would provide a significant incentive on weather teams in order to have some security option in case you lose the weather war, despite the typings other flaws.
  7. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

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    A lot of new posts since my last entry.

    I still support Bug/Psychic, the pitch for Bug/Dark, as well as my initial Bug/Ghost, depending on what we want from CAP4. They don't really give us risky moves to work with (bar Bug/Dark, which has Sucker Punch, Foul Play, Payback and so on), but they meet the requirements for weaknesses. I also like the notion of Bug/Ground, which I considered before Bug/Ghost but thought the Sandstorm immunity and Stealth Rock neutrality would count against it. However, Bug/Ground scores a very good array of weaknesses to common types: Fire, Water, Ice and Flying, the former two having their weather boosts. It's worth considering.

    I also like the arguments behind Fire/Psychic and Electric/Psychic (Fire/Psychic a bit more because of the Stealth Rock weakness).

    What I'd really want to do in this post, however, is point out a couple of Types that people are presenting as risky, but I feel they really aren't, and so they wouldn't do justice to our concept.

    Fighting - Its key resistances to all of (Stealth) Rock, Bug (U-Turn) and Dark (Pursuit) are too much taken together. Any type backed by Fighting (bar Ground) gets awesome. Also having access to Close Combat as a safe and spammable Choiced STAB overrides the nifty Focus Punch STAB. (though unSTABed Focus Punch on its own, as its Fighting coverage, could be interesting, and better than relying on Focus Blast - see Aggron's SubPuncher for this).
    Dragon - Although I think the problem isn't the Dragon type but Outrage and Draco Meteor, as their drawbacks have already had strategies invented to perfectly offset them. It's been said before: remove the Steels and proceed to sweep. Maybe a Dragon type that had to rely on Dragon RUSH for its STAB though.... otherwise, sorry birkal, it was a cool option at least.
    Steel - Too good defensively. Way too good. CAP4 would get switch-in opportunities through the roof. It even resists (Stealth) Rock, Bug (U-Turn) and Dark (Pursuit), so (bar a weak typing) it's just going against our efforts.
    Water - Too few weaknesses and STAB with rain boost would be as abusable as Dragon's, at least. Also almost all Water types have Surf/Waterfall for readily available and Safe STAB, and then there's Scald.


    I really don't see how the above types embody 'risk' that we're looking for. There's so many types we could try and give this CAP, and everybody's pitching something, a lot of people miss out on the big picture. Besides 'what makes this type risky' you might want to ask 'why THIS type, and not THAT one?' When you see Fighting and Steel getting advertized as 'risky' types you start wondering what happened to the rest of the Type Chart.
  8. Dusk209

    Dusk209 No relation.
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    I'd like to propose Grass/Dark as a typing for CAP4:

    Passive damage weakness – SR, sandstorm, spikes, even U-turn or Pursuit, whatever it might be
    This type combo is, as we all know, vulnerable to all weather damage, all status, and all entry hazards. More interestingly, however, is the fact that it gets DESTROYED by u-turn. Being checked by some of the more common u-turners like Genesect, Scizor, and Tornadus-T makes it a very risky addition to any team.

    Good overall STAB combo – that means it should have both a wide coverage over the OU metagame and
    The combo of Grass/Dark is only resisted by steel, and some dual types such as fire/fighting or dragon/dark. It's a decent combination that can dent many OU pokemon, but doesn't get a huge amount of super effective hits.

    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact – That means no dragons (oh fine if you want)
    Both of these types have a considerable amount of resistances, although few are shared. Because of this, some thought must be used in order to choose from one of your 2 STAB attacks, as you might risk giving the opponent a free switch into many different resisting types such as fire, bug, dragon, steel, fighting, and flying.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances – It should be a risk to switch in, but that doesn't mean it should be impossible to do so
    This combination is only hit neutrally by 4 types. Every other type is either 2x, 4x, .5x, or 0x, compared to other types that are hit by many attacks neutrally.

    STAB on notable risky moves – eg. Sucker Punch, Focus Punch, anything with a negative effect in essence (though I don't really like Sucker Punch but whatever)
    Here is where this typing becomes fun. Really fun. Grass/Dark has access to many notably risky moves such as:
    - Petal Dance, which is risky to use because it stops you from switching and confuses you
    - Leaf Storm, which forces you to switch out frequently
    - Wood Hammer, which may kill the user
    - Solarbeam, which is unreliable as it depends on sunlight
    - Sucker Punch, for obvious reasons
    - Foul Play, which can be risky due to it's situational and unreliable nature
    - Pursuit, which does pitiful damage if the foe stays in
    - Payback, which does pitiful damage if you move first
    - Inaccurate grass type status moves

    Also, due to the low power of dark type moves and the bad coverage of grass type moves, the player must make a risky decision: Do you want the coverage granted by dark moves, or the huge amounts of power granted by grass moves such as solarbeam, leaf storm, and wood hammer? As a final note, I'd like to put emphasis on the fact that accuracy is not the best way to produce risk - I mean seriously, we could just make an electric type with Zap Cannon as it's only STAB and call it a day but it wouldn't have any thought put into it.
  9. Darklatias92

    Darklatias92

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    I'm with vroomvroom918 and BlueStar99 for the Dragon/Grass typing (I wanted to suggest it first, but I was anticipated).

    Passive damage weakness: The only kind of passive damage that it won't receive is by Leech Seed. Otherwise, it receives damage from the others.

    Good overall STAB combo: Dragon is an excellent STAB and Grass can deal with few types like Water, Rock and Ground.

    Spammable STAB: While Draco Meteor is recognized as one of the most fearsome attacks, it can't be spammed endlessly. Same with the rare Leaf Storm. Also, Outrage can be quite powerful, but with the "lock-mode" it can be easily revenge killed by moves like Ice Shard. SolarBeam can have some use in a Sun team, but with the omnipresent Rain (and to a lesser extent Sand) pulling a single beam can be quite difficult. Wood Hammer can be quite risky due to the residual damage received for each use.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: It can resist some common types, like Electric, Water and Ground. Also, is typing can be useful in Sun teams to deal with opposing Water, Rock and Ground types. However that comes to a price: weaknesses to Dragon, Ice, Flying and Bug, and is easily walled by Steel.

    Notable members:

    Electric (Rotom-W, Thundurus-T)
    Water (Starmie, Vaporeon, Politoed, Gastrodon, Rotom-W, Jellicent, Keldeo)
    Ground (Dugtrio, Gastrodon, Gliscor, Landorus)
    Rock (Tyranitar, Terrakion)

    Dragon (Dragonite, Salamence, Haxorus, Hydreigon)
    Ice (Mamoswine, Weavile)
    Flying (Dragonite, Tornadus-T, HP Ice Thundurus-T)
    Bug (Forretress, Scizor, Volcarona, Genesect)
    Steel (Forretress, Scizor, Skarmory, Jirachi, Heatran, Ferrothorn)

    In CAP:

    Electric (Krilowatt)
    Water (Arghonaut, Krilowatt)
    Ground (Collossoil)
    Rock (Stratagem)

    Ice (Syclant)
    Flying (Tomohawk)
    Poison (Mollux)

    STAB on notable risky moves: Draco Meteor (sort of), Leaf Storm, Outrage, Petal Dance, SolarBeam, Wood Hammer, Grass Knot, Synthesis.
  10. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    I'd like to support one of the nominations already done.

    Probably my favourite nomination so far is Birkal's Bug/Dragon entry. bugmaniacbob expressed his dislike for Dragon as a type since he didn't like something to be spammed easily. However, many Dragon STAB moves come with a quite high risk in them. Outrage "traps" you into attacking, meaning you can be easily revenge killed with priority/scarfers, and Draco Meteor lowers your (probably) main attacking stat harshly, so it cannot be spammed at all. Even resorting to lower-powered STAB moves like Dragon Claw / Dragon Pulse (that can also be seen as "risky", since being forced to not having enough power to KO the opposition just to use a safe STAB is something many strong attacking types don't have to resort; think about Fighting. Also, while Dragon has a good neutral coverage, it only hits Dragon for SE damage, thus making a weak STAB move even less desirable) don't eliminate risk for this particular typing: weaknesses to hazards, residual damage and common attacking types in OU (Ice, Rock, Flying and Dragon, over everything else); the fact that it has a good (but not great) amount of resistances too is necessary to give it some opportunity to switch in, IMHO. Also, Bug/Dragon combination is resisted by Steel, one of the most common defensive typing in OU, so it's even less likely to get a sweep by just spamming a strong move, even if the opponent doesn't pack (or has already lost) his priority Ice-type user or his revenge killer. Furthermore, Bug/Dragon combination will likely have access to a lot of awesome boosting moves like Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, Tail Glow, that in conjunction with an adequate stat distribution can make our CAP4 extremely rewarding while extremely risky too.

    Okay, I love to abuse parentheses, please forgive me on that!
  11. kjt

    kjt

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    I guess I'll stay stuff (as is customary). Three types I'm liking right now are Bug/Dragon, Electric/Psychic., and Fire/Electric (in that order of preference). And yes I am very biased toward new type combinations. But 'cause this is what I'm doing at the moment, I'm only gonna shower Bug/Dragon with praise.

    My favorite is Bug/Dragon simple because it puts CAP4 at kind of a disadvantage. It's SR weak and susceptible to (Toxic) Spikes; it has no immunities to any major statuses, and some minor ones (I'm thinking Leech Seed); and there isn't much weather bias (note: I dislike weather). In Hail it fears 100% accurate Blizzards, takes Hail damage, and in general dislikes Ice-types; in rain it has resistances to rain-boosted water moves and Thunder, but a weakness to 100% accurate Hurricanes; in Sandstorm it takes damage, and its STABs don't fare well against those steel types that love 'emselves a sandstorm; finally its neutral to sun-boosted fire moves and resists Solarbeam. IMO it's nice to not have a weather bias (and in fact fear some weathers) 'cause it creates all the more risk of using CAP4 in a pretty weather-centric metagame. On the bug side of things its doesn't have any risky moves (unless you wanna count the miss chance of Megahorn), but as for dragon moves there's Draco Meteor (isn't it a type guarantee that it gets this?), possibly Outrage, and as a phasing option, Dragon Tail. In terms of weaknesses it's got the risk factor: its got a weakness to some common attacking types (Dragon-on-dragons, Fire, Rock), and it takes neutral damage from about half the type chart, meaning that, if we choose to make it frail-ish, it will have to choose carefully about what kind of moves it switches in on. That being said it does snag some choice resistances too (water, fighting, grass, ground, electric). And to address some of those points in BMB's first post:

    Passive damage weakness: yup, most definitely.
    Good overall STAB combo:
    -NVE: Fire, Fighting, Poison, Flying, Ghost, Steel
    -Neutral: Rock, Bug, Ground, Ice, Normal, Water, Electric
    -SE: Dark, Dragon, Psychic, Grass

    It can hit back against some possible threats for SE damages: all OU dragons, Abomasnow, Tyranitar. This is somewhat of a risk element, as there's a risk of being KO'ed (on both sides). Furthermore there's risks associated with what one would theoretically do against these Pokemon: Outrage makes it easy to be revenged (you're trapped), Draco Meteor could potentially force you to either risk attacking again, and missing the KO, or switch out, thus taking Spikes/SR damage when CAP4 returns to the field. As for Abomasnow/Tyranitar, there's also the risk of surviving a Blizzard/SE (or whatever they may use), KO'ing, but then being taken down by residual weather damage (or alternatively turning you into a death fodder 'cause SR is up and you couldn't survive a switch in).

    I don't know what BMB considers "wide coverage of the OU metagame" in terms of STAB, and I kinda think Bug/Dragon may not have that . . . but hush now let's not linger on that. Ignoring the fact that many Pokemon are duel typed, Bug/Dragon hits 11/17 types for neutral or SE damage, which is pretty good if I do say so myself.

    STAB that can't be spammed: in terms of both STABs there's not really much competition for the best move. You're got Bug Buzz or Megahorn for physical moves (or if not Signal Beam or X-Scissor). Assuming we go for the best ('Buzz and 'Horn) we can get 135 and 180 BP respectively (and Megahorn has questionable accuracy). They're relatively spamable, but that's kinda canceled out by the somewhat less spamable dragon moves. The safer options (on our risk-mon) are Dragon Pulse or Dragon Claw, but in the spirit of risky-ness let's assume CAP4 has Draco Meteor and/or Outrage. Draco Meteor is very unspammable (unless Contrary?), whilst Outrage is un-spammabe in the sense in the sense that CAP4 can't alternate between [insert bug move] and Draco Meteor. So the gist of it is no, these STABs aren't spamable in a together sense. You can't follow a DM with a special bug move, you can't follow an Outrage with anything other than an Outrage for the next couple o' turns.

    Weaknesses/Resistances:
    -SE: Dragon, Ice, Rock, Flying
    -Neutral: Fire, Poison, Bug, Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Steel, Normal
    -NVE: Water, Grass, Electric, Fighting, Ground

    As a part dragon type, CAP4 would be equip to deal with other dragon types. Let's just assume that CAP4 is faster than [insert dragon-type opponent that's kicking your ass]. You could sacrifice a 'mon in order to switch CAP4 in safely, or you could switch CAP4 in at the risk of being hit with a dragon move. Maybe it's not the best example, but w/e. Ice and Rock, two decent attacking types, are also SE and, unlike dragon moves, are used by all sorts of Pokemon. Many Pokemon actually have these types of moves available to them (think near every water type gets Ice Beam) so they could choose to run them over another move.

    Bug/Dragon takes neutral damage from a couple of types of priority (Bullet Punch, Shadow Sneak, Extremespeed), its potentially vulnerable to high powered neutral moves (eg sun-boosted fire moves, Reuniclus's Psychic/Psyshock), and doesn't resist Sucker Punch or Pursuit. My point? TBH didn't think of that . . .

    Finally this type combination has some great resistances: Water (in a metagame of rain), fighting and ground (both rather common attacking moves), electric (Volt Switch), and a 4x resistance to grass.

    So yeah now I'm gonna hide some more and probably come back to vote :)
  12. Devidra

    Devidra

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    I know it might sound odd but I would like to nominate a poison/flying typing.
    I believe it represents a lot of thing this CAP is trying to achieve.

    First its resistant to typed Fighting (4x), Grass(4x), Bug(4x) and Poison(2) while being immune to the everpresent ground type. To balance this out its weak to common type attack suck as Ice(2x), Electric(2X), Psychic(2x) and most importantly Rock(2x) which its usually paired with Ground attacks. This gives it plenty of switch in opportunities but limits its staying power.

    It takes passive damage from Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, Hail, Leech seed and is susceptible to burns and paralyzes.

    Its stab combination isn't spammable but it offers excellent coverage resisted and immune only by Rock and Steel types. Options such as Brave Bird, Hurricane, Air Slash, Gunk shot and Sludge Bomb/Wave
    offer high risk high reward. Furthermore access to support options such as Roost, Toxic, Toxic Spikes, and Whirlwind allow it to act as Pivot in tandem with its resistances.

    I feel I have to compare this to Crobat.He has seen some success bar for an underwhelming stat spread, and fullfilled his role decently. I feel that there's yet untapped potential to be found in this type combination.
  13. shstakvchlvr

    shstakvchlvr

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    While everyone is listing really interesting typings, I think it'd be better to see if we could do something great with a pretty standard typing: Rock/Ground

    Passive damage weakness – Resists SR, but is still vulnerable to Spikes, Hail, and all status.

    Good overall STAB combo – EdgeQuake is wonderful for STAB but can't be spammed due to 1) for Rock, low accuracy moves and 2) for Ground, Levitate (would say Flying-types as well but Rock covers that).

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances – Heavy on the first, not so much on the second. Weak to Fighting, Water (4x), Steel (all of which have priority), Grass (4x), Ground, and Ice. Resists Flying, Poison, Electric (immune), and Normal. I think the fact that is only has few resistances makes it even riskier to use; why should it have the luxury of many resistances if it has enough to be able to switch in?

    STAB on notable risky moves – Earthquake is risky due to many Pokemon having an immunity to it and Rock moves (especially Stone Edge) are all risky due to their low accuracy or due to variable damage output (Rock Blast).
  14. DEMo_Gorgon47

    DEMo_Gorgon47

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    If anything, that just shows why Dragons are so unrisky. They are all over the OU metagame because they are so good. Even Mono-Dragon is a force to be reckoned with. And while you argue that the risk is in being a Dragon-type, in all honesty if that were true, then they wouldnt be considered to be the "best" type. And like it was said, its STAB's are far to easily spammed, even with the presence of steel types, to be reliable. Anyone that comes into an invested Draco Meteor/Outrage/ and even Dragon Pulse/Dragon claw to some extent will be hurting.

    Again, the moves Draco Meteor and Outrage arent that risky. Anything that switches into those will hurt. In some cases, they will be brought down to KO range for that same move. The beauty of Dragon is its great neutral coverage. In a meta-game where halving damage due to typing is arguably more important than stats (looking at the Pink Blobs, who's lackluster typing is catching up with them), Dragon is amazing. Bug on the other hand, has great resistances to compound with the Dragon's, and lacks any crucially weak moves. It could also be TOO good of a Set-Up sweeper. Quiver Dance, as seen on Volcarona, is so dangerous. After a +1 it hits like a truck and becomes extremely difficult to KO from the special side. Dragon Dance we all know is a Dragon types best friend. And Tail Glow... well Manaphy wasnt banned to Ubers for no reason.

    Really, this is not the optimum typing. Grass/Dragon is in the same boat for pretty much the same reasons.

    That leaves the best typings listed to be Fire/Psychic and Electric/Fire. Electric/Psychic doesnt get a mention beacause it lacks 'lots' of resistances while packing several weaknesses as well as a lack of Stealth Rock weakness, thus eliminating an effective possible support route. Poison/Flying alsois interesting, though not as effective as the first two IMO
  15. Toby jug

    Toby jug

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    Might as well come out of woodwork to list the only combo of bad defensive types that hasn't been listed so far: fire/rock

    Passive damage weakness: Weak to SR and affected by other entry hazards unless using Balloon (which may be common given the 4x earth weakness). Weak to hail and immune to sandstorm. So yes.

    Good STAB combo: yes. Rock is a fantastic STAB and fire may not have the best coverage but is fantastic in sun and great for taking out the omnipresent steel type, which coincidentally is one of rock's biggest barriers. The combo has generally good neutral coverage in OU, with only a few pokemon resisting both STABs. This group includes Gastrodon, Terrakion, Keldeo and Garchomp.

    Spammable?: Not really. Rock moves are notably inaccurate and since the metagame is centered around SR has many resists and few pokemon that are hit super effectively. Fire has a large number of resists in OU and Heatran to get past and requires winning the weather war to really become spammable. Head smash has the power to muscle through resists but has very high recoil and low pp, allowing it to be played around.

    Good mix of Weaknesses and resistances
    : fairly. 4x weak to ground and water and 2x to fighting and rock; all very common types in the metagame, very few pokemon do not use one of these types for coverage or STAB.
    On the other hand fire/rock has a 4x resistance to fire and resistances to flying, ice, normal and bug moves, giving room for switch ins on predictable HP fire/ice, extremespeeds and u-turns. Also worth mentioning is the Sdef boost in Sandstorm and burn immunity, both of which are handy for switching in.
    On the priority front this means that fire/rock resists ice shard and extremespeed, is weak to mach punch and aqua jet and is neutral to bullet punch and the rare shadow sneak.

    STAB on notable risky moves: To an extent. On the physical side Flare Blitz and Head smash both have recoil and would limit switch-ins and the length of the potential sweep. Similarly, no physical rock moves have that sought after 100% accuracy and both Stone edge and head smash have very low pp. Ancientpower does play into the risky nature of the pokemon, but the low chance of activation means the payoff is very unlikely.
  16. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

    Joined:
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    I am inherently drawn to some of the typings mentioned such as Bug/Dragon, Ice/Fighting, Ice/Steel and Grass/Dragon, but I think we need to come to a consensus to discount Some types before we can agree on choosing types.

    I believe we should do this is by crossing off the types that have no risky moves - there are several of these types and there's not much point in debating them at length. I am going to rate each Type on the 'Risk'ter Scale so we can see how viable they are for our CAPmon.

    STAB on notable risky moves

    Note that low accuracy moves such as Megahorn, Inferno, Thunder etc are not included under this section. Probability based risk has already been mooted as not being the type of risk we are aiming for.

    Note that underpowered attacks are not included. It is not 'risky' to have to rely on low powered attacks for STAB, it is simply not very good. We're making an offensive 'mon here so it needs to have strong STAB moves.

    Note that attacking type immunities Will be considered as they do not rely on probability and they can be played around by any shrewd player.


    Dark - really is the best type for risky attacking moves: Sucker Punch, Beat Up and Foul Play can all be excellent/awful depending on the circumstances. Sucker Punch is basically the quintessential high risk/high reward attack. 10/10

    Fighting - The best Physical Fighting moves all have risks: Close Combat, Superpower and especially Hi Jump Kick. Then there's the immunity for Ghosts. This is a very strong typing for risky moves! 10/10

    Bug - As much as I love the support for Bug, its only vaguely risky move is Pin Missile, which might hit only twice (28BP), or up to 5 times (70BP). It would only be vaguely competitive with Technician or Skill Link as an Ability. Megahorn's only drawback is shaky accuracy, which is not the kind of risk Birkal and capefeather have said they are looking for. 4/10

    Dragon - has Outrage, Draco Meteor and Roar of Time (LOL) but these are still pretty spammable once Steels are gotten rid of. 6/10

    Electric - has Wild Charge and Volt Tackle which cause recoil. Note that these are both Physical moves. Electric moves are also absorbed by Volt Absorb and Lightningrod, as well as being risky to use with Ground types on the opposing team. 7/10

    Fire - V-Create, Eruption, Flare Blitz, Heat Crash and Overheat are all strong but risky options, and there is a good array of negative effects to choose from. There's also the risk of giving the opponent a Flash Fire boost. 8/10

    Flying - Bounce, Brave Bird and Fly all have potential, but only Brave Bird could be considered a strong STAB. 5/10

    Ghost - Curse, Hex and Shadow Force all have potential, but none have been used very effectively so far. We would likely need a strong supportive ability for Curse and Shadow Force, such as Shadow Tag. 4/10

    Grass - Bullet Seed, Leaf Storm, Grass Knot, Wood Hammer, Solarbeam and Petal Dance have all been used for sweeping sucessfully, and all have risky aspects. Good array of options. 9/10

    Ground - Bone Rush has variable hits, but other than that the main risk of Ground moves is the many Flying types/Levitators that abound. 7/10

    Ice - Icicle Spear and Avalanche are the only really risky moves for Ice STAB. 6/10

    Psychic - Future Sight, Psycho Boost and Stored Power all have risks but are still strong attacks. There's also the risk of a Dark type switch-in and a Pursuit Trap - that's a major risk!. 8/10

    Rock - Head Smash and Rock Blast are both competitive, yet risky possibilities. 7/10

    Steel - Doom Desire, Gyro Ball, Metal Burst and Heavy Slam can all do some good damage, but with risks. It's a pretty weak typing offensively though. 6/10

    Water - Water Spout is the only real possibility 3/10

    Normal and Poison I discount for being too offensively weak for OU. No one is seriously considering them!

    So, if you agree with these ratings, you'll see Dark, Fighting, Grass, Fire and Psychic have the best risky moves.

    On this basis, I would support most of the options that have one of these types as a primary type. I also feel like a Stealth Rock weakness and ideally a susceptibility to all other forms of passive damage should be included in the typing. So, for the Stealth Rock weakness we need Flying, Fire, Ice or Bug. Flying is out because it makes our CAP immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes, and Fire makes it immune to Burn. So Ice or Bug would be good.

    Poll Jump alert! My ideal Risk-mon would be a very bulky Dark/Ice Physical Tank that uses Sucker Punch to kill faster threats or Avalanche to make the most of taking a hit. This would also be sufficiently different to Weavile.

    TL DR: Choose Dark, Fighting, Grass, Fire or Psychic as the primary type on the basis of their risky moves/risk of immunities. The secondary type is still wide open :)
  17. Ewil

    Ewil

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    I agree with srk here, if we want risky moves, then we can give him/her/it only Blizzard and Thunder and less powerful STAB move like Discharge or Icy Wind, but not the reliable ones (Thunderbolt and Ice Beam), so this pokes can be utilized in a Hail or Rain team. The idea to create a powerful pokemon that can abuse an unresisted (except for 2-3 mons) dual STAB is really cool and maybe we can give him some boosting move.

    Another idea that comes to mind is a powerful Rock/Ice sweeper that gives him six pretty common weakness, a weakness to all hazards. The only pro is that he's immune of Sandstorm and Hail passive damage. He have two powerful STAB, and i think that can be a good idea to use Wonder Guard as an ability for him, since his weakness are pretty common and we can give him HP stats that are not too high, but aren't even the Shedinja's HP (like 50-60~70) so he can survive 1 hit, but the second can be fatal and he have also to take in consideration the fact that SR, Spikes and status are always around, so he's HP can be reduced. As for the move, he have Stone Edge and Ice Punch/Ice Fang for STABs or we can go special with Blizzard and Power Gem. He's susceptible to priority Mach Punch, so he has to stay warned even by priority
  18. RavensNation

    RavensNation

    Joined:
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    Bugs. Bugs everywhere... Anywho, I'd like to throw another type combination out there for consideration. It actually has a double resistance to Bug-type attacks and is still walled by Steel (since we seem to enjoy being walled by Steel so much). The type combo is: Ghost/Flying.

    Weakness to passive damage: CHECK. The only passive damage it resists is Spikes and Toxic Spikes (but can still able be hit by Toxic). It has a weakness to Rock, meaning it will be crippled by Stealth Rocks on a switch-in. Resists no weather (actually fears rain and hail for their 100%-accuracy Thunders and Blizzards). Apparently Pursuit is another thing that's nice to be weak against, so check that too. Leech Seed as well, while we're at it; burn, paralysis, confusion... You name it.

    Good STAB combination:Ehh. Ghost/Flying isn't spectacular, per se, but it does get some pretty nice coverage. It hits Grass, Bug, Fighting, Ghost, and Psychic (all pretty common types) for super-effective damage. It's walled by Steel, but that's about it. It's an "ehh" STAB combination.

    Spammable STAB combination: No. Which is a positive, right? Anything that is hard-walled by Steel is definitely not spammable.

    Good mix of weaknesses and resistances: Check. This typing has some really bad weaknesses, the biggest being a weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning it would be a risk to bring this thing in without Rapid Spin support. It's also weak to Pursuit and Volt Switch, which is self-explanatory, I think. A weakness to Thunder is never good to have in a metagame that is so ruled by Rain, although it's secondary Flying typing means it could possibly spam 100%-accuracy Hurricanes. Oh right, don't forget Ice weakness, as well. As for resistances, how about a double resistance to U-turn? If it learns Will-o'-Wisp (as most Ghost-types do), it could possibly make for a nice counter to the omnipresent Scizor. It also gets some nice immunities to Ground and Fighting, both extremely common attacking types. An immunity to normal is also there, but it's not nearly as common an attacking type as the former two. Three immunities, though. Me gusta.

    STAB on notable risky moves: CHECK. Ghost Curse, Hex, Will-o'-Wisp, Destiny Bond, plus other Ghost-type attacks (which are inherently risky due to their low power and propensity for ineffectiveness through immunities). The only risky Flying-type move I can think of would the Brave Bird. Maybe Sky Attack...? Nehh, there's herbs for that, although that could be risky in the way that it leaves you with no hold item, which could be potentially useful for Acrobatics. Could Sky Drop be considered a risky move?

    ...actually, I think someone else had already mentioned Ghost/Flying...
  19. Afti

    Afti

    Joined:
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    312
    I'm going to introduce Ice/Fire, myself.


    Passive Damage Weakness: Easily Applicable. Sandstorm-weak, Spikes-weak, Toxic Spikes-weak, and quad-Stealth Rock-weak. Also severely weak to some priority moves - but, notably, not to Bullet Punch, and with a double resistance to Ice Shard.

    Good Overall STAB Combo: Easily Applicable. This really is an absolutely insane STAB combo. Ice is resisted by Fire, Steel, Water, and Ice; Fire is resisted by Water, Rock, Dragon and Fire. There are only two types that really can be said to get a safe switch-in on these STABs; Fire and Water. Beyond that- Dragons can switch in on a Fire move, but will die if they eat an Ice one; the same applies to Steels, but in reverse. For a risky Pokémon, this is fantastic; these are two of the most common types in the metagame, and whether they switch in for free or eat huge amounts of damage depends on your prediction abilities. If you know the opponent's party is running Genesect and Hydreigon - do you use Fire Blast or Ice Beam? Offensively dangerous while creating a dimension of risk from the get-go.

    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: Easily Applicable As mentioned, these STABs can't break through Water or Fire types; this means that a good bulky Water can check the Pokémon nicely. You get almost, but not quite, perfect neutral coverage in trade for the weaknesses this typing gives you.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances: Somewhat applicable Ice/Fire gives you resistances to Bug, Grass, and Ice; Grass isn't a big deal, but Bug lets you come in on U-turn and Ice on one of the most common types of coverage moves in the metagame. These are usable openings. On the other hand, you have a laundry list of weaknesses - Ground, Rock, Water, and Fighting. These are also common offensive types; you need to find just the right moment to switch in, but that moment WILL come.

    STAB on notable risky moves: Easily Applicable. Blizzard, Avalanche, Icicle Spear, Overheat, Eruption, V-Create, Flare Blitz, Heat Crash - Ice/Fire provides an excellent set of powerful offensive options that can come back to bite you if you take a bad bet.

    Basically, the thought here is that it's a phenomenal offensive typing with a few important resistances supplementing an otherwise bleak defensive picture.
  20. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    Ugh, once again I find that I don't have enough time to say as much as I'd like, but I'd like to throw Ghost / Flying out there. I know it's been suggested before, but I think it reflects an aspect of risk/reward that a lot of people are missing. A weakness is not, in itself, conducive to risk/reward. In particular, a weakness to Stealth Rock should, imo, be accompanied by a realization that it may make CAP 4 much too difficult to switch in, and immunities do a lot to remedy this. If you look at a lot of the Stealth Rock weak mons in OU, many of them are Flying-type or at least a typing that has lots of key resistances and/or immunities. The Rapid Spin immunity in particular makes the Flying type more relevant, since it would also give CAP 4 a risk factor against Forretress and Starmie.
  21. ShinyDreamer

    ShinyDreamer

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    DARK/FIRE!!! DARK/FIRE!!! It's weak to Earthquake, Surf, Stealth Rock - heck, all entry hazards and weather - and U-Turn, has huge coverage (not even Steel resists both STAB's on this typing), has a lot of high-risk moves...what more could one ask for?
  22. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

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    My suggestion is Ice/Dark.

    Why? Because it's an good offensive typing having access to Ice STAB as well as STAB Pursuit, while being balanced by having the shoddy defensive qualities associated with almost every Ice-type pokemon ever.

    Passive Damage Weakness: Completely.Ice/Dark leaves this pokemon completely open to all forms of Entry Hazards as well Sandstorm and Toxic. Packing a 2x weakness to Stealth Rock, switching is not something an Ice/Dark pokemon can take lightly, especially while being hurt by both Toxic Spikes and Spikes. Sandstorm poses a threat with consistent damage, and that's not including the fact Terrakion's Fighting STAB scores 4x damage.

    Good Overall STAB Combination: Yes.Ice has been a consistently good offensive typing, as it packs a very handy damage boost against Dragons and Flying types. This lets it threaten Genies, Lati@s, Dragonite and a slew of others. Dark brings STAB Pursuit (if we include that move), allowing us to give this pokemon trapping abilities, as well as a good coverage move in Crunch to pick off Psychics and Ghosts.


    STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact: Entirely.An Ice/Dark pokemon is, to put it bluntly, walled by Steels. You can't just throw out Ice attacks without expecting Magnezone to come in to ruin your day. Dark attacks just don't score enough damage multipliers to make them worthwhile (it hits the somewhat uncommon Psychic and Ghost types well, but it's almost negligible against everything else). It's also notably stopped by Terrakion and Scizor, both of which can retaliate with STAB SE attacks (Close Combat and Bullet Punch, respectively). Ice may be a great offensive type, but being stopped by Steels and bulky Fighting types ruin an Ice/Dark pokemon's day.

    Lots of weaknesses and resistances:
    Yes. Ice/Dark gets hit hard by Fighting (4x), Rock (2x), Fire (2x), Bug (2x) and Steel (2x). While it's not the biggest list every, let's not forget that these are some of the most common attacking types. Fighting is probably the biggest threat, being present in the ubiquitous Close Combat and Hi Jump Kick, while Bug spams U-Turn. Rock leaves it weak to Stone Edge (when it hits!), while even Magnezone packs HP Fire to threaten Ice/Dark. Steel is covered by arguably the most common Steel attacking move, Bullet Punch.

    That said, Ice/Dark does pack useful immunities, including an Immunity to Psychic (which means Psyshock's effect of hitting on the opposite side of the spectrum is useless). Resistance to Dark stops this pokemon from being Pursuited itself, which helps to make a risky pokemon possible (it's ricky to switch it in, but it's still possible to switch it back out thanks to Pursuit resistance). Resistance to Ice blocks half of Boltbeam, while a resistance to Ghost can handle the odd HP Ghost.


    STAB on notable risky moves: Somewhat.Can you say Blizzard? Ice STAB for this pokemon, using its most powerful move is a gamble, with an accuracy rating below Stone Edge.


    Ice/Dark probably isn't the most original typing ever, but it creates a pokemon which has very good offenses, packing type advantages against many potent threats by virtue of having STAB Ice. The resistances are few and far between, but they are key resistances, avoiding the glass cannon issue. Being walled by Steel certainly makes it dangerous to bring out, as even Magnezone commonly carries a move to threaten it, and being weak to the Fighting moves being thrown out all over the place means getting a decent offensive streak going with this pokemon will be a challenge. Add to that Stealth Rock and Sandstorm limiting the amount of times you have to switch in and try, and you have a pokemon which can wreak havoc. If you can set up the battle for it, that is. It is risky, but then again, who doesn't enjoy tearing through the opposition with Blizzard?
  23. psykokitty

    psykokitty

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    So many interesting options to choose from... I have to admit that for some reason, I really like SpecsX's submission of Normal even though it fails at practically everything bmb is looking for. One thing that I particularly like about this typing is that practically every STAB move it has can be considered risky (except perhaps Return) because it cannot hit for SE damage. Either you have to choose between something low-powered (like Body Slam) and bypass the KO, or use something with a higher BP like Take Down, Giga Impact, or Hyper Beam and suffer the consequences. Furthermore, doesn't the fact that the best it can hope for is a neutral STAB hit embody a whole new flavor of risk that has as yet been unconsidered by the community?

    That having been said, the other types that I favor right now are Electric/Psychic and Fire/Water. Deck Knight and Gerard have pretty much said everything there needs to be said about the former, as have Akela and forestflamerunner with regards to the latter, so I don't really have much to add there.
  24. Eagle4

    Eagle4

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    Haha, looking at these, it seems an interesting one has gone unnoticed. Ice/Fire would be a great typing for this concept, due to reasons Afti explained. A little correction though Afti, Bullet Punch isn't weak to this pokemon: Ice<Steel
  25. Yllnath

    Yllnath

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    Hmm, I'd like to mention up front that I'm not sure why we'd would want CAP4 to be SR weak. I know BMB said that he wanted CAP4 to be suspectable to passive damage, but SR weak I feel is too much. Either it's one of those typical pokes that have etchy reliant-on-spinners kind of strategies, or are just that awfully scary, that it can still be able to handle itself once in with 75% or even 50% health remaining. Dragonite/Volcarano.
    For any risk taken, there should be an equal amount of perceivable reward you can get from taking the risk. I feel SR is one of those weaknesses that will either make us go wild in stat stages, or where we'll end up with speed+(sp.)attack boosting stat-up moves just to compensate.
    I'm not proposing SR resistant, but neutral seems a bit less overkill, especially when we also want this thing to have some common weaknesses.

    Not sure who proposed this first again, but when I saw the mention of Bug/Ground, I immediately liked the idea.
    Weaknesses to Water, Flying, Fire and Ice are no minor weaknesses, but having Fighting, Ground and Electric as resistances/immunities gives plenty of reliable switching in space. If we make the switching in the risky gamble of CAP4, then there's only so much room we have left in different stages where we aren't just trying to overcome the weaknesses of the typing.
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