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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Sep 18, 2012.

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  1. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Current Pool:

    Code:
    BUG/DARK
    FIGHTING/ROCK
    ICE/FIGHTING
    DARK/ICE
    BUG/DRAGON
    FIRE/ELECTRIC
    BUG/PSYCHIC
    ICE/PSYCHIC
    ICE/STEEL
    PSYCHIC/DARK
    DRAGON/GRASS
    ICE/ELECTRIC
    FIRE/WATER
    BUG/GHOST
    DRAGON/FIGHTING
    ICE/GHOST
    GRASS/FLYING
    BUG/GROUND
    PSYCHIC/FLYING
    ICE/ROCK
    NORMAL/GROUND
    ELECTRIC/DARK
    NORMAL/ROCK
    NORMAL/ICE
    NORMAL/DARK
    FIRE/PSYCHIC
    ELECTRIC/PSYCHIC
    ELECTRIC/GROUND
    ROCK/DARK
    GRASS/DARK
    POISON/FLYING
    ROCK/GROUND
    FIRE/ROCK
    GHOST/FLYING
    ICE/FIRE
    DARK/FIRE
    FIGHTING
    DRAGON
    PSYCHIC
    BUG
    NORMAL
    ~41 Types

    ---

    Look at all the pretty colours...

    Right so I was originally going to go through each type combination individually and judge their individual merits, the same way I did with the concept submissions, but given that there have been no less than 41 individual typings suggested already, I'm pretty sure that would take far too long and be far too repetitive for people and everyone who didn't get chosen would just disagree with me and demand further explanation. As usual. So, I'll just tell you what I AM liking so far, and then if I haven't mentioned you then you can rage, storm and flail to your heart's content until I answer you (not literally, of course. You'll be infracted if you actually rage, storm and flail).

    Anyway a lot of you are, not to put too fine a point on it, completely missing the point. This is largely due to the emphasis on risky moves that, while I agree with it, am actually starting to regret adding to the OP. Having STAB on a notable risky move is meant to be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. My main concern with the typing is not STAB or anything like that, but how easy it is to switch in and out, rather than how easy it is to do anything once in - any Pokemon can have risky options when it is already in

    Now, I'm not fond of Dark-types. This might take a bit of explaining, and I'd like to urge you to please listen to what I have to say before crying foul. The Dark-type gives us two weaknesses to two resistances and one immunity, which is not really the amount that I particularly wanted, but more importantly gives a weakness to Fighting-type moves - particularly Mach Punch - that I definitely didn't want to see, as per my note on priority moves in the last thread. In addition, it really has very few powerful, usable STAB attacks, which I consider imperative to a sweeper that adequately rewards its user - no reliable ones over 85 BP, anyway - which leaves its sole bonus as a typing with STAB Sucker Punch. Now, Sucker Punch, whatever its virtues in the lower tiers, really isn't sweeping anything in OU, regardless of its admittedly considerable general utility outside of that. What evil, nasty Pokemon would we be using it against? Well, only those that tend to attack and only those that outspeed, which generally falls into the realm of revenge killers - which are, typically, stuff like Scizor, Breloom, Genesect, and Terrakion (good luck using Sucker Punch on Terrakion, by the way). Which leaves Sucker Punch's main use in picking off very much weakened, faster threats, which you really do not need STAB on Sucker Punch for. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a nonSTAB Sucker Punch is a far riskier construct. Remember that just because it isn't Dark-type does not mean that Sucker Punch is automatically disallowed.

    I will grant that STAB Pursuit is a very good deal, as that is a particularly risky move that I wouldn't mind seeing more of. But, well, I am personally of the opinion that other failings outweigh it - and Dark isn't the best typing for a trapper, given all the Psychics and Ghosts insisting on running Fighting-type attacks. Not to mention that other roles, decided upon, take precedence over that of trapper.

    I am slightly surprised to see people championing so many Fighting-types, when I had thought that 4 CAPs had taught us that Fighting was a very, very good offensive and defensive typing indeed (and that's not even saying anything about that Dragon/Fighting submission), and as such one of the least risky around. Rock I definitely do not want to see, as it really doesn't have any good attacking moves at all, without relying on an ability. Steel resists both sandstorm and Stealth Rock and gives many more opportunities to switch in than otherwise; Ground is entirely vanilla, except for the fact that it also resists Stealth Rock and sandstorm. Nearly all other typings are equally standard, or slightly on the wrong side of the fence, except for, in my view, Bug, Psychic, Grass, and possibly Ice.

    Importantly, I'd like a typing that was both realistic as well as good for the concept. This means that, yes, it should be able to make for a sweeper that outclasses others when set up with no fuss, but which is much less effective if the battle doesn't go one's way. It should be able to act as an effective wallbreaker if the user acts intelligently, but much less so through button mashing. It should also be used because of the risk posed, rather than despite it; to this end, it should not be usable purely for the sake of its typing, giving it its own niche. Hence my favourites are as follows:

    BUG / PSYCHIC is the combination of my two favourite individual typings and, it has to be said, is my overall favourite at this particular time. Defensively, it has six weaknesses and four resistances, so is difficult, but not impossible, to switch in, and incorporates two STAB attacks that cannot realistically be fired off indiscriminately on their own, but do have the virtue of largely covering for each others' weaknesses, despite the inability to bypass Steel-types - though this could be considered a plus point, as there is the risk that if Steel-types are on the field, this Pokemon is useless (hence a very specific, importantly, prerequisite for this Pokemon's effective use). Bug and Psychic both provide important weaknesses and resistances, alongside either powerful or reliable moves. Psychic is noteworthy here because of its massive span of power versus reliability attacks, with Psychic against Stored Power for boosting sets, as well as the additional virtue of Psychic vs. Psyshock (note that I have excluded legendary exclusive moves). To my mind, this is the perfect typing, though there are some very good alternatives as well.

    BUG / DRAGON is another typing that I am interested in, for entirely different reasons to the above. Now, I know that I said that Dragon-types were probably the worst Pokemon that we could put down for a Risk/Reward based concept, and yes, the fact that Dragons are some of the least risky Pokemon to use in the game lends colour to that view. However, after discussion with the good gentlemen of #cap and a few hours' pacing up and down my room I have come to the conclusion that the idea has merit. Possibly it's just my wondering if it is possible to make a Risky Dragon (which isn't named Druddigon, I mean) - hence, there is a great deal of challenge here. Regardless, Dragon has a good deal of potential - what many people don't seem to have addressed in their posts is that Bug/Dragon is pretty much the worst typing for any Dragon in OU (takes the most damage from entry hazards of any Dragon bar Kyurem), and as this isn't exactly going to be at pseudo-legendary level (or if it is, it'll have limits elsewhere), will be almost unusable outside of its own niche - the risky niche which we are to give it. The fact that Dragon has some pretty risky STAB moves is nice, but not the main point, in that this is a typing where the onus is on the role to provide the reward, rather than any sort of intrinsic merit, which I sort of like, in a way.

    On an unrelated note, we also have BUG / DARK, BUG / GHOST, and BUG / GROUND in the Bug-type department, which I personally find to be an excellent typing for CAP4 in its own right, but in the interests of fairness I would rather restrict the Bug-types to the two that I think would give us the best Project from here on out, while giving some other type combinations a chance to shine.

    As for other typings I like... I suppose ELECTRIC / PSYCHIC would come quite high up on the list, as it does have nearly everything I am looking for, including a difficulty switching in - my only gripe with it would be its lack of SR weakness, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. GRASS / FLYING is alright but I am wary of the specifics of Flying attacks (and I don't want to make this very predictable by going for a glass cannon Brave Bird + Wood Hammer combination). GHOST / FLYING is the same, for similar reasons.

    As a final note, I'd say that if your typing is weak to either Fighting or Steel, I am unlikely to slate it, as then the risk to the user is very largely dependent on whether the opponent happens to have a Breloom or Scizor, respectively; hence, I'm sorry to all you Ice-type fans, but it's a bit of a dead duck.

    EDIT: Whoops! Almost forgot. A 24 Hour Deadline from the time of posting of this thread is now in effect, in which time you may make your entreaties for your favourite typing known, and I will extend the deadline if I feel there is more to be discussed. Carry on.
  2. Stagnant

    Stagnant

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    I propose Fire / Flying. Hits every type with the exception of Rock/Ground and Water/ Rock neutrally. Defensively speaking it's typing is a mixed blessing. It could hypothetically switch into Fire, Grass, Fighting, and Ground-type attacks but those moves are often paired with Electric, Water and Rock-type attacks. Passive-damage-wise Stealth Rock mauls it but is unaffected by Spikes and Toxic Spikes. As previously mentioned it would have access to a great STAB combo and in the terms of "risky" moves we have Hurricane, Brave Bird, Inferno, Will-o-Wisp, Flare Blitz, Fire Blast, and Magma Storm. Some comes at the cost of health and other with terrible accuracy but high power.
  3. Skore

    Skore

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    If we remove the nominations weak to Fighting and Steel we are left with:

    BUG/DRAGON
    FIRE/ELECTRIC
    BUG/PSYCHIC
    PSYCHIC/DARK
    DRAGON/GRASS
    FIRE/WATER
    BUG/GHOST
    DRAGON/FIGHTING
    GRASS/FLYING
    BUG/GROUND
    PSYCHIC/FLYING
    FIRE/PSYCHIC
    ELECTRIC/PSYCHIC
    ELECTRIC/GROUND
    POISON/FLYING
    GHOST/FLYING
    FIGHTING
    DRAGON
    PSYCHIC
    BUG

    Now that the entries seem to have been considerably narrowed, I'm throwing my support behind Bug/Psychic as I think it has the potential to have both potent offensive prowess along with a multitude of support options.
  4. Mari

    Mari

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    sorry for my bad English
    I propose Normal/Ice.


    • Passive damage weakness – 4 x SR weakness, vulnerable to Sandstorm, Spikes
    • Good overall STAB combo – Ice is a great typing dealing with most Ground, Flying, Dragon, and Grass, including Gliscor, Dragonite, Landorus, Salamence, Breloom, Lati@s, Tornados-T, Thundurus-T, Venusaur and Haxorus. Normal allows to hit Fire, Water and Ice Pokémon normal effective, including Politoad, Rotom-W, Tentacruel, Cloyster, Ninetales, Starmie and Volcarona.
    • STAB that cannot realistically be spammed endlessly for maximum impact – Both STABs can easily be walled by Steel types and Jellicent. Overmore Ice will be stopped by most Water tanks (like Tentacruel, Cloyster or Rotom-W). Normal has a better spam potential than Ice but it can be blocked by Ghosts as well.
    • Lots of weaknesses and resistances – as mentioned above: 25 % SR damage, vulnerable to Priority moves, Mach Punch (4x), Vacuum Wave (4x), Bullet Punch (2x). Weaknesses: Fire (2x), Fighting (4x), Rock (2x), Steel (2x); Resistances: Ice (0.5x), Ghost (0x) - this makes it to a defensively horrible typing

    • STAB on notable risky moves – On the fist hand there is Blizzard (yes, STAB Blizzard out of hail is very risky) - imagine your opponent switches to Politoad or Ninetales - both are resistant to ice and will change Blizzard's accuracy to 70 %. Currently each Ice Pokémon can learn Ice Beam, but this must not apply to CAP4 (I do not intend thread hopping). Avalanche and Icicle Spear are further examples a risky Ice moves. Then there is another move to consider here: Ice Shard. Ice Shard could be a "safe option" against priority Mach Punch - but this doesn't interest Lucario and Scizor. However it can greatly deal with Venusaur, Breloom and Dragonite. It's a risk to use Ice Shard because your opponent can easily switch into a Water Tank which is laughing at Ice Shard (e. g. Cloyster or Politoad) - You always have to decide: Ice Shard or Frustration/Giga Impact. You need good prediction skills to do so. Then there are Normal moves, most notable: Head Charge (or maybe Double Edge), Crush Grip/Wring Out (however, Return and Frustration are better ...), Flail, Trump Card, Last Resort, Hyper Beam/ Giga Impact, Skull Bash (unlikely), Explosion/Selfdestruct (your opponent could switch into a ghost or a almost ko'ed Pokémon) ... aaand Gift (lol, just a joke ^^).
    Normal/Ice is not just a glass cannon type, but if you have a closer look, it can also used for more bulky directions. Possibilities include Icy Wind - a very underrated move which can be crucial for success and Hail (a very risky weather, because it is easily countered by Sand (Rock types like Tyranitar and Steel types), Sun (Fire) and Rain (Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Tentacruel) )... However Normal/Ice is not helpless against these weathers: non-water Ground types (like Gliscor, Donphan and Landorus) still encounter problems when they see this Pokémon, most Chlorophyll users (like Venusaur, Shiftry and friends) have trouble as well.

    To conclude I think this would be a very interesting typing. Let's give it a try.
  5. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    I think that the absolute best type with risk vs reward attakcs here has been completely neglected. What type has better suited moves for this Pokemon than Normal?

    List of Normal moves with risk vs reward in mind: Accupressure, Assist, Belly Drum, Conversion (1 & 2), Crush Grip, Echoed Voice, Explosion, Foresight,Head Charge, Last Resort, Metrenome, Pain Split, Perish Song, Present, Psych Up, Recycle, Reflect Type, Retaliate, Selfdestruct, Super Fang, Thrash, Transform, Tri Attack, Trump Card, Weather Ball, Uproar and Wring Out.

    Normal is resisted by only 2 types (Rock and Steel) and does not affect an additional 1 type (Ghost). It only has 1 weakness, being Fighting. And ofcourse it is the only type to not hit others super effectively. The forced weakness or neutrality to Fighting type moves is the bane of every Normal types, along with its common Steel resists and inability to hit super effectively, making the normal type a difficult type to justify.

    In order to make this Pokemon competitve, yet still with risk, the x2 Fighting type weakness and inability to hit Steels with Stab should stay in my opinion. This eliminates Dark, Ice, Rock, Steel, Psychic, Flying, Ghost, Bug, Poison, Ground, Fire and Fighting as secondary types. Poison could likely be argued because of how little to brings to the table, but i think thats also a reason to exclude it. Looking at the reamining types to slash with it; there is Water, Electric, Dragon and Grass. Dragon type cannot be considered because it has no coverage that is helped by Normal. Outside of Fake Out or Extremespeed it would, much like Gengar, simply ignore one weaker type offensively in favor of the stronger ones.

    So we are left with Normal/Water (Biberal), Normal/Electric and Normal/Grass (Sawsbuck line). Water and Normal are actually pretty good coverage, though i feel Water doesnt have much in the way of risk in moves or typing and is heavily favoring Rain usage. I feel Normal/Grass and Normal/Electric are both viable for this purpose. My favor leans towards Normal/Electric though, for a few reaons.

    1) The symmetry fo the typings. Both types have only one individual weakness, don't affect one type and only hit two types super effectively with their combined coverage. This makes the Capmon weka against common types, with two types it will have trouble with offensively (not to mention Ferrothorn/Necturna taking pitiful damage from stabs and Golurk taking 0 damage from stabs) while still having generally decent coverage.

    2) Risky types. Electric is certainly a faovrable type when it comes to risk factor and Normal is to me ideal.

    3) This Pokemon will take every type of status condition/entry hazard damage in the game, making it hard to switch in when bulky Pokemon or utility Pokemon are around, along with a Fighting and Ground wekaness making switching in on many ofeensive mons difficult too.

    So yeah. Would like to see some thoughts on Normal type and proposing Normal/Eletric.
  6. RavensNation

    RavensNation

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    Ahh, OK. Now I understand the concept a little better...

    Upon further consideration, I have decided to give my support to these three type combinations: Bug/Dragon, Bug/Psychic, and Bug/Ground.

    I'm really liking the love for Bugs! It's always been one of my favorite types, although in this case it's not exactly for the most positive reasons...
  7. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

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    I would like to defend in more depth my proposal (namely Normal/Ground despite its weakness to fighting. Breloom can be handled by teammates, so that should not be too important. In fact, its weakness to Fighting adds significantly to its risk. The CAP community has shown itself to always tend toward OP rather than too weak. Normal/Ground's weaknesses to the common types of Water, Ice, and Fighting ensure switching in will always be risky and never a sure decision. Its STAB also is risky yet good. Very few pokemon resist both STABs, but both cannot be spammed due to Flying and Ghost types, respectively. The risky defensive typing and Good yet unspammable STAB attacks is fulfilled by hardly any other typing. Bug/Psychic has bad STAB attacks, being walled completely by steel, and Electric/Fire, the other major contender have the same problem with Dragons and only 2 weaknesses with an air balloon.
  8. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    Almost over already, huh? Well, I would have changed my mind on the Flying type, anyway. One thing I'd really like to have on CAP 4 is at least one 120+ Base Power STAB. The main reason for this is that having a baseline battering ram might actually help CAP 4 by at least giving it something consistent with which to threaten the opponent. It's like a variant of rock-paper-scissors where winning with each throw gives different rewards. I also think it would save headaches during stat submissions, when people realize they might want some power on CAP 4 without necessarily going over the top with the offensive stats.

    So my opinions on Bug / Dragon and Bug / Psychic are pretty even, since both have a double resistance (I'd say that the double Fighting resistance is more usable than the double Grass resistance, though) and both lend themselves well to powerful STABs. For Bug / Dragon, I'd really prefer not to have CAP 4 use Outrage due to the unavoidable randomness of the lock-in duration, but Draco Meteor is still there. For Bug / Psychic, there's Megahorn; the accuracy is a bit troubling, but it's still a nice battering ram for CAP 4 to have. Electric / Psychic I can see happening, too, at least if we do something about the terrible accuracy of Thunder and/or the paralysis secondary effect of most of the Electric-type moves.

    The last remaining typings to consider, then, are those containing Grass. Physical Grass has Power Whip, while Special Grass has Leaf Storm. I must say that Psychic / Grass seems the most promising combo from this angle, but we already have a good OU for that (Celebi).
  9. Espeon65

    Espeon65

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    My favroites are Bug/Dark, Bug/Psychic, and Ice/Psychic. I am pulling for Bug/Psychic to win as much as possible, as I believe it would e a great typing with high risk and reward.
  10. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

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    These three have my vote. BMB, please slate all three of these - Bug/Ground has its merits as a third option for being the only Bug-type combination that is Stealth Rock neutral, if we decide to go the neutral route instead of x2 weakness.

    Other than that, I'd love to see Fire/Psychic, Electric/Psychic, and Ghost/Flying to make it to the Typing poll. The merits of the various typings have been brought up before - I'll just say these, along with the previous three, offer an interesting variety of types to work with. (Although it's missing Grass, notably... hmmm).
  11. Tira_ShadowHeart

    Tira_ShadowHeart

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    What a time to put off lurking.
    I really liked the concept of Bug/Dragon when I first saw it; however, I don't really like the idea of being walled by Steels. For that reason I liked Fire/Ice, but because of its weakness to Fighting, I'm throwing some support behind Fire/Water instead. Finally, Bug/Psychic seems like a great typing for the risk/reward concept with its great resistance of Fighting but weakness to the common Rock partner move.
  12. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

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    Glad we've finally had some clean up in regards to these typings. Everyone was going their own direction and formulating every possible type-combo not yet done. Anyway, hypocritically enough, I'd like to get a better understanding of your view on my proposed typing of Fire/Electric.

    This has fit my ideology exactly when I decided on Fire/Electric. Yes, while both STABs include many risky moves, I realized that a major selling point of a Fire/Electric-type regarding the concept of risk is that it has a very hard time switching-in in our current metagame. Rain prominence makes it harder to retaliate Water-types with its Electric-typing, it's susceptible to all hazards including a Stealth Rock weakness, and a lone Earthquake could faint the CAP before it could even move. Offsetting these flaws is the fact that it gets 7 useful resistances, allowing the user the opportunity for risk/reward based on predicting what type the opponent's move will be.

    Precisely describing Fire/Electric-typing yet again. It's an excellent wall-breaking typing, but an opponent can just as easily outwit you into powering up their Flash Fire or Lightningrod user, or even give them the battle's momentum merely from switching in to the right attack. Furthermore, without proper teammate support, this typing can actually fall relatively quickly, which precisely follows the ideal of this CAP not working well if the battle doesn't go one's way. It's harder to say this about other types that don't have as many common weaknesses, Super-Effective coverage, and abilities immune to them all at once.
    Again, while not having a Stealth Rock weakness isn't necessarily a bad thing, it definitely wouldn't hurt to fill in the concept, does it not? In fact, let's compare Psychic and Fire-typings. Electric/Psychic hits four types, Poison typing being uncommon while Flying has every sub-typing it needs to resist one or both, and it's weak to only three types of moves. On the other hand, Electric/Fire hits 6 types and is weak to three types of moves and resists a total of 7. While their weaknesses are equal in number, Water, Ground, and Rock attacks are much more common than Bug, Dark, and Ghost, the latter set mainly consisting of Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and U-turn. Overall, while Psychic's benefits and flaws are clearly existent, Fire is more extreme in both aspects, which would clearly take us the right direction in a CAP all about risk and reward.

    Feedback would greatly be appreciated, negative or not.
  13. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    Out of the suggested typings, I must support Bug/Psychic. The typing's main draw to me is that both typings do something to counteract the other's weaknesses. Pokemon with STAB Pursuit will have to be cautious of Bug moves, it hits both rock types for OU for Super Effective damage with its stab moves alone. Of course, it is still weak to fire and most bug types in OU won't be particularly bothered by the Psychic stab. Even then, this is a Pokemon that relies upon risks to operate.

    Consider the Pokemon that conventionally would check the types individually that I listed above. Tyranitar and Terrakion can come in, but they risk taking a bug or psychic move respectively. If they do come in, the Pokemon has to go into a guessing game as to what the opponent does. In Tyranitar's case, they can stay in and risk taking a Stone Edge, or they can switch out and risk taking a Pursuit. If their risk pays off, the battler will be in a much better spot. If it doesn't things are a bit riskier. The same dynamic exists with the other OU Dark types (Hydreigon), in that coming in is exceptionally risky for them but if they do come in safely, they are solid.

    The fact that the Pokemon has moves to hit most of the checks and counters to its typing, but still risks failing badly if it mispredicts as it cannot afford to switch out frequently due to the Stealth Rock weakness, makes every turn the Pokemon is out a risk that can potentially be very rewarding if the opponent sends in their Terrakion into a Psychic. The nature of this typing matches the concept almost perfectly.

    Although being weak to Pursuit and not having a neutral STAB on Scizor is rather painful in the OU metagame.
  14. vroomvroom918

    vroomvroom918

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    I don't understand why CAP4 needs SR weakness. Everyone's all like "UGH MUST HAVE SUPER ROCK WEAKNESS UGH!" SR isn't the only risk that's out there. 2 of the 3 that I like are weak to Rock, but that happens to be coincidence. I think we might be concentrating too much on just one aspect of risk here.

    Personally, I am in support of just these 3 ideas:
    Dragon/Grass (well duh, I suggested it) - can be risky if we make it. All the other Dragons are so not risky because of ridiculous legendary or pseudo-legendary stats, not because the are Dragons. Dragon type should not be ruled out.
    Bug/Psychic - this actually does have wonderful risks involved. Psychic has its fair share of risky moves, but what could make this risky is the myriad of buffs that this typing opens up, mainly Quiver Dance and Tail Glow. These moves could be considered high-risk-high-reward if given to a relatively frail CAP4
    Fire/Electric - I like this idea. Common weaknesses (one of which is double ground), but plenty of resistances to make it possible to switch in. Fire has good risky moves like Overheat and Inferno, and Electric has Thunder and Zap Cannon, as well as the semi-risky Charge Beam. Sure Thunder can be fixed by rain, but rain also pumps the Water weakness. This typing also comes with excellent support, opening up Burn and Paralyze moves. At first I thought this typing was silly, but I have come to like it very much.
  15. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Well, I have to say that in and of itself, Fire/Electric is a typing that admirably suits the concept. It has a hard time switching in, definitely, but it has ways of switching in too, which is excellent. It has very good, high powered and reliable STAB moves, which is a good deal more. So, yes, I will grant you that Fire/Electric possesses all the desirable qualities which you mentioned, and more importantly, those which I mentioned as well.

    The point at which I begin to fall out of love with Fire/Electric lies in a number of traits which give me pause for thought. The first, though you may freely contest this if you wish, lies in the significant ease with which it can switch into a number of individual Pokemon - not just moves - without risk to itself, by virtue of its seven resistances. These include Scizor, Magnezone, Ferrothorn, Genesect (it actually resists just about everything Genesect has) in OU, and probably more depending on what sort of bulk we decide to give it. To this end, it is actually relatively easy to switch in on quite a few common OU Pokemon - this does not necessarily make it not risky (particularly as two of the four above have U-turn), but due to the discrepancy between resistances and weaknesses, I am wary of it.

    The second point is that the typing itself is, well, inherently very usable. Seven weaknesses to common types is, like Celebi, both very useful and easy to work around, and delivers great benefits to the user irrespective of the risk of switching it in, purely by virtue of the strength of its unique typing (yes, I gather that Rotom-H is basically unusable in OU despite having Levitate, but that is generally put down to the fact that its only Fire-type attack is Overheat). Hence it is hard to gauge Risk when the typing is so good for entirely generic reasons - it is very good against opposing rain teams, for example.

    On the topic of rain teams, though... this is the weakest argument I have against it, and I'm fully expecting you to disagree, so I'm not going to press on about it, but it's worth mentioning. In essence, Fire/Electric is quite a lot similar to the CAP that we have just done, Mollux... and if I'm honest, I'm finding it hard to see, from a process perspective, how we could make this one that much different from Mollux, given the similarities between the two (by "process perspective" I don't mean "well it won't have Dry Skin and we can give it Shell Smash, so it's different". I am aware that the end result will turn out different, but I am worried about having very similar discussions with regard to threats and counters, as well as the movepool).

    As such, while I agree that Fire/Electric is an excellent typing, my niggling doubts prevent me from fully embracing it. I will admit though that of all the ones I didn't mention in the previous post, this was the one that tempted me the most, so if you'd care to argue further for it, please feel free! I am certainly willing to hear its case.
  16. Skore

    Skore

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    I don't think that has been explicitly stated?

    Personally I'd prefer something that wasn't SR weak as SR's prevalence make it a staple in all damage calculations and if any hazard can assumed to be up - it's SR.

    However the most popular suggestions have either Bug or Fire in the typing so SR weakness seems to be on the cards anyways; even if it offers one of the most obvious risks to the project.
  17. srk1214

    srk1214 You are people yes ou no?
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    BMB, would you mind explaining why "being reliant on Steel-types being eliminated in order to be useful" (like in Bug/Psychic) is any more fair justitification than "being reliant on Breloom/Scizor being eliminated in order to be useful?"

    While obviously we don't have statistics that answer this question precisely, I am assuming I am correct when I say that more teams have at least one steel type than have either/both of Scizor/Breloom.

    Furthermore, while Bug/Psychic is not "weak" to Steel (neither is Ice/Electric or Ice/Steel for what it's worth), barring HP Fire/Fire-type coverage AND being bulky enough to live a CB Bullet Punch at 75% health post SR switch-in, (meaning Physical bulk somewhere around 80/80 or the equivalent), a Bug/Psychic CAP would lose to Scizor under normal battle scenarios anyway.

    I would just like an explanation of why Breloom and Scizor are getting so much weight here. They're two Pokemon in all of OU. Yes they use priority. In a way being Fighting weak is a good thing for an Ice/Electric (my suggestion) pokemon to have. Provided it is faster than Breloom, Breloom can only come in to revenge or a prediction of a non-Ice move. Furthermore, Breloom then HAS to Mach Punch in order to not die to said Ice move. This provides the perfect opportunity to switch in anything that doesn't mind a Mach Punch in the least, such as Celebi, Salamence, Landorus-T, whatever. Prediction is inherently risky.

    Being weak to Fighting (or Steel) should hardly be considered a weakness when constructing a CAP based around risk. It could even be argued, as I have, that it should be embraced.
  18. GRs Cousin

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    I appreciate your open mindness in all of this, inviting counterpoints should there be any instead of dismissing this as "I'm the topic leader and I say no". Anyway, they are all very understandable points, but I believe they can be worked around with enough effort and reasoning.

    First, yes, it is given that it has many switch-in opportunities, having little problems with the threats you mentioned. However, I think there-in lies a key aspect you missed. Much like Ferrothorn and Magnezone in this aspect, CAP4 would have many resistances, but the Achilles' Heel of having 3 types that are the most common attacking types besides Dragon and Fighting makes them a larger issue than you'd see on first impression. While it does get to profit off of opportunities if one takes risk and succeeds, a mispredict can easily end this CAP's reign for that battle. Considering that Pokemon like Gyarados, Druddigon, and Politoed all hit fast and hard, it would be very hard to retaliate to their attacks. Should you use a Fire-move, they could switch into any of the former. You could attempt to attack with an Electric-type move, but therein lies the risk of them hitting you with a STAB attack under a Choice Scarf, likely to kill CAP4 assuming we don't make it bulky. Should you attempt a switch, there is a very good chance they would use that opportunity to set up or even switch themselves into a counter of what they predict you would choose. This is not even taking into consideration of the abilities that could be used against you, such as Arena Trap from Dugtrio to effectively screw you over with Earthquake or the Sandstorm Tyranitar sets up to further absorb attacks and proceed to either set up or kill you on the spot. My point is in all this is that while it does get many opportunities, CAP4 essentially has to be in its ideal situations or it will effectively neuter your team's chance of ever grasping momentum in the battle.

    Secondly, I thought of it myself, and to an extent I agree with you on that. However, I do not think the process would mimic itself to that of Mollux's at all. Aside from having STAB Fire moves and access to a few electric type moves, they would be entirely separate Pokemon. Mollux's concept was to take bad typing and make it usable in an unorthodox way: A specially bulky Fire-type that loves the rain. CAP4, however, does not follow that avenue. Not only would it hate to be in the rain, but it will likely lack the utility and safety that Mollux has when dealing with threats. CAP4 is designed to be used to its fullest potential as something you can easily win with or lose with, a testament to the player's ability themselves rather than battle conditions and weather. Furthermore, Mollux was built to be bulky, which means that you are allowed to take attacks you weren't expecting when using Mollux. Its movepool, which consisted of reliable moves such as Recover and Rapid Spin, would likely not match CAP4's moves, more likely to be things like Sucker Punch and Belly Drum. As such, threats would be different to CAP4 than they would Mollux (aside from Tyranitar, perhaps), as the flexibility of the opponent being able to recover from mistakes are heavily different as well, meaning that Pokemon themselves would only be better suited to defeating CAP4 if they themselves involved risky payoffs, much unlike the stabler battles with Mollux.

    All in all, even if it wouldn't be your first choice, I still think there's enough justification to at least slate Fire/Electric. It has plenty of potential to create a Pokemon that truly makes everyone in the battle actually think moves in advance before acting, unlike much of what I've seen from other suggestions. Thank you for your time.

    Edit: With Birkal's input below, I thought I would just update on Skore's list of viable typings. Each of the following are immune to nothing and have a variety of resistances and weaknesses, and none of them are weak to three or more forms of priority.

    BUG
    BUG/DRAGON
    BUG/PSYCHIC
    DRAGON/FIGHTING
    DRAGON/GRASS
    ELECTRIC/PSYCHIC
    FIRE/ELECTRIC
    FIRE/WATER
  19. Cuban Vader

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    I'm jumping in late and don't have much to add, beyond the fact that my favorites thus far are Bug/Psychic, Fire/Psychic and Electric/Psychic, in no particular order. I was initially favoring Ice typing, but I agree with bmb's point on it possibly making it to difficult to switch in. My one problem with the Bug/Psychic combo is I feel as though the best way to make a risk/reward Psychic type is to keep it from having stab that super effects dark, which Bug does. After rethinking, I think Electric/Psychic is best. I think it has a better balance of resists and weaknesses than Fire/Psychic, and like I said with Bug/Psychic, if we go down the route of Psychic typing, I think it's best to not have a stab super effective on Dark.
  20. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    I hope that people stop adding new typings to the list at this point. We've already got a lot of narrowing down to do, and I think the winning type, whatever it may be, already exists in that list of 41 that bugmaniacbob posted.

    I'm going to make two generalizations to hopefully guide some thoughts in this thread. You are free to disagree with them, but they are just the thoughts that I have on typing in relation to our concept.

    Resistances are good; Immunities are bad. This simply has to do with switching in, so it's not a difficult concept. If you have an immunity to, let's say, Fighting, then that is an entire plethora of moves that you can safely switch in on. That involves very little risk, in my opinion; you're just making a prediction and working with it. This is why Ghost-type worries me. It closes off both Normal-type and Fighting-type moves, which leads to a plethora of non-risk situations for CAP4. Resistances, on the other hand, are a risk. You risk catching secondary effects, you risk a critical hit, and you risk taking extra damage (which becomes an issue when your weak to hazards and neutral to priority). I just see immunities as an easy way out, whereas resistances require more calculated efforts.


    Weakness to priority is bad. This was discussed quite a bit in concept assessment, but it's more important to note here than anywhere else. As soon as you become weak to priority, then you're immediately taking away risk. If you're weak to Bullet Punch, for example, you aren't going to "risk" staying in, that would kill you. Rather, you switch out, which is the safe thing to do. Having a neutrality to priority is essential, because now you have a lot of risks to calculate. "Can I survive the Bullet Punch and KO back?" and "Am I faster than X Pokemon when it doesn't use priority?" become viable questions that deal greatly with risk. So in general, I'd argue that its better to be neutral (or even resist a few) forms of priority.​

    My final comment that I want to make is that we are specifically looking for lots of resistances AND weaknesses. A typing combination that has 3 resistances and 2 weaknesses isn't going to provide significant risk. Furthermore, make sure that they are viable resistances and weaknesses. I don't care if your typing is weak to Poison; literally nothing in OU uses Poison-type STAB.

    I will have some thoughts to make on Bug/Dragon vs. Bug/Psychic later tonight. Stay tuned for that!
  21. Scoopapa

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    I'm going to support Bug/Ground. It may not be a shining example of passive damage weakness (neutral to all hazards but immune to Sand Stream) but I think it does very well in the other categories. Both STABs are excellent attacking types with good coverage, and yet neither is that easy to spam. Ground covers Steel and Poison for Bug while Bug covers Grass for ground. Both notably are weak against or unable to hit Flying-types. Compared to Rock, Flying, or Dragon, Ground and Bug are not very spammable, with plenty of immunities for Ground and 4x resists for Bug out there (many 2x as well). It also has a very interesting set of weaknesses and resistances to work with. It is weak to Water, Fire, Ice, and Flying, while resistant to Fighting, Poison, Ground (notably without being weak to Rock), and immune to Electric. The combination of Electric immunity and Water weakness provides a nifty risk/reward situation against Rotom-W in particular.
  22. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Because they are very specific threats, and your success or failure in regard to whether or not CAP4 can pull off its strategy adequately should not be so severely linked to whether or not your opponent happened to be carrying a specific Pokemon (as this is outside the realm of the player's control). The reason I am willing to overlook a "Steel-type weakness" is that owing to the prevalence of Dragon-type attackers, you can count a Steel-type presence on the opponent's team as a given. I would also count priority as a whole as a given, but not those specific, individual Pokemon. The reason that they are only two specific Pokemon, rather than an archetype, is why I have chosen to exclude them.

    Although, I am not sure where you have got the idea that CAP4 would be unable to live a neutral Scizor's CB Bullet Punch at 75% from - this was not, as I said before, to be a glass cannon at all. Furthermore, I am not sure where you got the impression that Bug/Psychic would be rendered unable to beat Steel-types - I certainly didn't say that, and it's easy enough to remedy with coverage. Note that all of these considerations are based on CAP4's role as a sweeper, more than any of its other roles.

    As for your first point, at the moment I am more concerned by CAP4's sweeper sets than any other individual role it may have. In this case, being able to switch in with very little difficulty is more of a problem than it first appears, as you can quite easily switch in and set up, which renders the issue of being weak to common attacking types - which as you rightly pointed out, is a problem otherwise - rather moot, especially if you can OHKO them before they can touch you, which is the case with most Water-types, due to your Electric-type STAB. As I say, this problem is much less applicable to other sets, certainly. In addition, I am not sure that I enjoy the Dugtrio example as I don't want this Pokemon to be the sort that can be eliminated by a single teambuilding change on the opponent's part, but then, Air Balloon and to a lesser extent Shed Shell can solve that problem, which are in themselves avatars of risk, so I'll leave it be.

    The thing with the rain example is that, well, with STAB Thunder, CAP4 would actually be surprisingly decent on rain teams, or even against rain teams. STAB Fire Blast helps here too, as it removes Ferrothorn, or any of the number of Steel-types that find their home on, or are very strong against, rain teams. Given that, as you said, I am not fond of things that are overly affected by the weather for this CAP, this element of Fire/Electric is rather distasteful to me. As far as Mollux goes, it is not in terms of the overall product that I am worried, because as you said, it would be very different in its outcome to the gastrolamp, but in what we are discussing in each process thread. I am wary of comparisons, treading the same ground; in effect, stagnation, or simply falling into the trap of treating this thing in the same way that we treated Mollux. It may even tempt us to go out of our way to be different, which is not necessarily a good thing.

    Thank you for replying, and please do note that if I do not slate Fire/Electric, it will largely be for practical reasons rather than the inherent value of Fire/Electric as a typing. I can't say much more as I have to go now, but please do note that I am considering it further in light of your arguments.
  23. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    My preferred option is already in high regard so I probably don't need to post anything, but I'd like to make a few notes about reasonable risk.

    We do want CAP4 to be risky, but we also want it to be risky within reason. I say this because there are a multitude of risky Pokemon that exist which never see the light of OU. The most common reason for it is that they are too risky, and the elements that contribute to it are ones that safer Pokemon in OU avoid. I particularly liked Electric/Psychic because it was vulnerable to all hazards without being weak to SR. SR weakness is a massive mitigating factor in use, and while I think a Pokemon vulnerable to hazard stacking is a priority, I don't think the SR weakness would be beneficial.

    The thing I don't tend to like about the Bug options (except Bug/Ground), and it shares some element of this with Electric/Fire, is that one type resists both STABs (in Elec/Fire's case, Dragon.) Having Steel types resist your attacks is one of the reason Steel Pokemon infest the tier, along with Fighting. Remember that to generate a win condition, it must also be risky for an opponent to switch in. Bug/Psychic lacks the kind of high-power moves to make that effective, seeing as major Steel Physical and Special walls can contain or curtail its effectiveness. To be sure, Elec/Psychic has its own problems with several of the Dragons in OU (Latis and Hydreigon specifically) as well as Ferrothorn, but it is otherwise well spoken for, and while Fighting coverage would take care of some troublesome Steels, Ice Coverage can handle those Dragons while enabling BoltBeam coverage, so it's quite versatile.

    In general I think it best to take in the whole scope of possible opponents, and as such to have as much offensive versatility as possible. Our Pokemon not only needs to be risky itself, but it must also generate risk in 3 theoretical moves or less.
  24. SA1TS

    SA1TS

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    Interesting concept here. I'd like to suggest the following types:

    Flying/fighting
    Dark/psychic
    Rock/electric

    Will edit post later with reasoning.
  25. shadowflame

    shadowflame

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    I'm not on here often but I have been following this CAP a bit and I think DeckKnight brings up some very good points. Especially in regard to the fact that the pokemon must be risky for both the user AND the opponent. I think he is right about the other options expect Bug/Ground having the issue of getting past steel types, which already run rampant, and even more so that the Bug/Psychic combination lacks any real power house STAB moves to get past this. Unfortunately, as much as I like Dragon/Bug I have to say it too has this same problem. On the bright side what I can say about the Dragon/Bug combination that Dragon types at least have some strong STAB moves to possibly leave some dent in a steel types switching in. In the end I'd like to throw my support, for what it's worth, to the Bug/Ground or Bug/Dragon option. Bug/Ground because it incorporates much of what this CAP seems to desire by possessing risky features for both players, and Bug/Dragon because despite the fact steel can wall its STAB moves it does have several STAB options that can still leave a fairly large dent, and seems to be able to fit the category of High Risk High Reward exceedingly well because of its Typing, the fact that it takes the most amount of entry damage of any dragon we see in OU, and for the sheer awesomeness of seeing what a bug dragon would look like and fight like =]
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