CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[alexwolf]

Bull of Heaven is right, even if U-turn is allowed it doesn't mean it will get picked. I totally forgot that we are merely choosing which moves will be able to be selected for movepool submissions (except for the requires moves), which means that if Baton Pass becomes an allowed move too, which it will most probably be, then there is still the option of U-turn not making it in the final movepool if Baton Pass proves to be the better option. For this reason i want to change my mind and say allow U-turn.

 

[Nyktos]

The argument that Fire Fang helps encourage using Malaconda in sun is, in my opinion, a weak one. We're a utility mon, and our usefulness to sun comes from filling roles that sun teams need, not from being really strong in sun. Fire Fang does very little to help fill those roles. To put it simply, Fire Fang comes at things from the wrong side: it makes sun teams more attractive to Malaconda rather than making Malaconda more attractive to sun teams. For a defence- or support-oriented mon, that is not the right way to go about things. My earlier position has not changed: I support disallowing Fire Fang.

That's not to say that Fire Fang is useless, though. It does one thing well and that is prevent Malaconda from being a liability against Scizor. I have, after consideration, come to agree that the option to do something other than switch out against Scizor is a good thing for Malaconda to have. We can, of course, do that without actually murdering Scizor via U-turn. I am now fairly certain that this is my preferred route to take.

I agree that the ease with which U-turn Malaconda + Dugtrio can take out Heatran is troubling. However, I just don't see a good way around it. The fact that it relies on a sun teammate to do this makes it a lesser evil to me compared to being able to take out Scizor alone with Fire Fang. Baton Pass would be a way around it, but...well, this isn't the thread to discuss Baton Pass so I won't go into details but suffice it to say I have some major issues with Baton Pass as well. I am still willing to change my position given strong arguments against, but unless and until that happens I am (somewhat reluctantly) in favour of allowing U-turn.

 

[DrNeoCortex]

I'm kind of wary of U-turn due to the whole thing about breaking Heatran's balloon and killing with Dugtrio. That's kind of how Genesect functioned way back when it was allowed. Speed doesn't matter if the enemy is switching and you're U-turning (that's pretty much the whole point of using U-turn), and damage output is irrelevant due to Heatran's 4x resistance. I'm not saying that if we give Malaconda U-turn that it will be as broken as Genesect (I shouldn't even have to clarify that, because they're two VERY different Pokes), but it's still cause for concern. I do support Baton Pass due to not dealing damage, but for this reason, I think maybe discussion about U-turn/Baton Pass should wait until the Support Move discussion, because dealing damage certainly won't be the primary use of U-turn for Malaconda, and Baton Pass isn't even an attack. If we're drawing comparisons to Baton Pass with U-turn, then we aren't on the topic of dealing damage.

 

[Psylink]

I'm just going got say this, but we're going to have to be careful with Malaconda's Egg Group, as it might get one where it can get Wood Hammer from breeding. Just make sure that you don't choose the Monster, Grass, or Mineral Egg Groups.

 

[nyttyn]

Disallow Extremespeed

One of those cases where it does more harm then good honestly. What the hell is Malaconda going to do with a un-stabbed priority move that hits nothing for SE, is resisted by one of his nemesises (Steels), and flat out doesn't hit another type (Ghost)? It would only see usage on band sets anyways, so it shouldn't be allowed because it literally has no merit outside of "80 BP priority"

 

[Basileus]

Ok, so I understand everyone’s concern for overpowering this CAP but take into consideration that we aren't ONLY trying to counter latios/latias and waters. CAP5's ultimate purpose is to stabilize types. That means Ground, steel, water, and even dragon. I think that C5 is a great idea for preparation for gen six because it may help to determine if new Pokémon that are released this gen could potentially help stabilize types. However, it concerns me that destroying one empire (rain) may allow another to rise from the ashes (sun?). Btw, whoever said sun is broken I also disagree with because it has to be one of the lesser used weathers. Weather in general is broken, yes, but sun isn't the BIGGEST problem. However, it also concerns me that making CAP5 too weak will just make it useless. And if it isn’t used because of its problems, how can we expect to solve things with its good qualities? Now I know that one Pokémon probably can't single handedly balance the game without being uber, but hear me out. If we turn CAP5 into “Cacturne V2” then we haven't learned anything. Sure we had fun, a few laughs maybe, but we could do that in much simpler ways than designing a whole new Pokémon. So maybe it isn't a bad idea to make CAP5 a bit more type covered? I think we are overestimating its stat spread, and that making it a little more versatile may do us some good. Think about it. Cacturne has poor coverage, great attack, low defense, low speed, and several weaknesses along with no coverage that make it NU,and I worry Malaconda is headed towards this. I think if CAP5 had ice priority AND a decent fire attack then it might be able to one-up this cactus. So, could a Pokémon with undesired typing rise to the top with just some simple type coverage? If we don't allow all ice type/fire type attacks, and U-turn we won't find out. So to Allow Ice-type attacks, fire-type attacks and U-turn might be beneficial. So far Ice shard and Fire fang seem great. I hope you guys understand what I am getting at...

 

[Brambane]

About Ice Fang. Even though this move doesn't have priority, it still removes Breloom from our list of coutners, which is something i don't like and i feel is uneeded. Once again, i feel that there are better ways for the CAP to not be setup bait for physical dragon-types and Landorus, and those are U-turn, Baton Pass, Encore, etc, moves that don't mess with our list of coutners and don't make the CAP good at handlding a bunch of other threats as well. We should not give to the CAP too much general utility as its role is meant to be specialized. Ice Fang hits a ton of stuff and makes Malaconda much better overall, while doing nothing for the original purpose it was intented to have. Disallow Ice Fang.

I can't stand the argument against Ice Fang because it removes Breloom from the counter list because that notion is ridiculous. And not just because you said that there are better ways to deal with them like U-turn and then say we should disallow U-Turn -.-

0 Atk (custom) Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 112-134 (42.74 - 51.14%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

We have a 50% chance of 2HKOing Breloom IF CAP5 runs Ice Fang, Breloom switches in on said Ice Fang, Breloom does not run Low Sweep and/or decides to set up OR CAP5 is Lum and Breloom uses Spore. To put it in perspective, that's like saying Offensive Celebi is not a good switch in to Jellicent because Jellicent can 2HKO with Shadow Ball, or that Gliscor doesn't counter Forretress because Forretress can run HP Ice. We might as well take the notion of switching in safely and throw it out the window. Also, Toxic Orb Breloom still beats CAP5 even if it runs Ice Fang. Breloom can still come in on any of CAP5's STAB moves with perfect ease. Malaconda beats Breloom in a vacuum, but in practice the chances of it beating Breloom are slim and you'd have to be insane or desperate to try to do so.

What Ice Fang DOES do is prevent Salamence, Dragonite and Landorus as turning Malaconda into set up bait. Admittedly, there are better non-attacking methods to preventing them from setting up, but we aren't there yet in the discussion and Ice Fang is currently the best way of preventing Malaconda from being a sitting duck against them. And furthermore, "just because we allow Ice Fang doesn't mean it will get it!" As a side note, I don't think having access to a 65 BP Ice Move is opening up a Choice Band set when you have only 55 Speed and 100 Attack. Allow Ice Fang.

 

[kingtrace]

I'm just going got say this, but we're going to have to be careful with Malaconda's Egg Group, as it might get one where it can get Wood Hammer from breeding. Just make sure that you don't choose the Monster, Grass, or Mineral Egg Groups.

Being in an Egg Group does not guarantee you get all the moves that that Egg Group gets. For example, Smeargle is in the ground Egg Group. This would mean Quiver Dance Blaziken. Obviously, that doesn't happen.

Egg Groups are likely to be merely flavor in this case.

 

[Legend13]

U-turn : Suppose Hydreigon just used dark pulse, and you switch into it. now, two things can happen; Hydreigon switches to one of our counters, or it continues attacking. In both cases, you can use U-turn, either dealing damage to Hydreigon, then bringing in a revenge killer, or escaping one of your counters. This allows Malaconda to keep the momentum in its team's favor. Allowing U-turn.
Ice Shard : Due to Malaconda's low speed and physical bulk, it's still threatened by Salamence and its draconic bretheren. Instead of switching out and losing valuable momentum that sun teams need, Malaconda can OHKO with investment, and OHKO uninvested with stealth rocks. Due to its threat to physical dragons, Ice shard should be allowed.
Dragon-Type and other Ice-type moves : Being a sun pivot, Malaconda needs to maintain momentum for its team; one way of doing this would be to phaze with Dragon Tail. Ice Fang is also an option, as it is a satisfactory ice move which could OHKO Dragonite with stealth rocks.
Fire Fang Fire Fang is too threatening to Steel and Bug types, especially Steel-Bugs like Scizor who are supposed to counter Malaconda. Disallowing Fire Fang.
Final Gambit : Malaconda is much too slow for this to be of any real use, so disallowed.
Super Fang : Is extremely niche, and not that great competitively, so this would be flavor at best.
ExtremeSpeed : Sine Malaconda isn't a setup sweeper like our good friend extreme killer Arceus, nor does Malaconda have STAB, or coverage with Normal-type, there is no point to ExtremeSpeed.
Horn Leech : Out of all the moves here, Horn Leech might have the potential to become overpowered, giving Malaconda another tool to recover with, in conjunction with Sitrus, LumRest, and Leech Seed (Ingrain?). That's not to say that it doesn't go against our concept, as it gives us another tool to slaughter water types with.

 

[ginganinja]

And, again, it's not Malaconda that would counter Heatran, it's Dugtrio. Heatran would remain a counter if I did not mistaken the definition of counter (in fact, it forces out Malaconda, so that should be enough).

Technically you are correct in that its Dugtrio actually eliminating Heatran. However, in practise, if we give it U-Turn, then we remove Heatran form the list of mons that threaten / beat Malaconda. If you look at it in a vacuum then yes, 1v1, Heatran would win, however, in an actual battle scenario, Heatran cannot and will not switch in on Malaconda, something that's quite a large problem when its supposed to be a major counter. Label it however you like, the point is U-Turn means Heatran isn't switching in on Malaconda period (heck a case could potentially be argued for Malaconda decreasing Heatrans usage due to Heatran being unable to handle it + the general sun team) since a simple U-Turn to Dugtrio ends it.

To put it really simply (assuming no HP Ground or something)

On PAPER Heatran countered Genesect
In PRACTISE Heatran didn't counter Genesect since the threat of U-Turn ---> Dugtrio was far too high.

Ok, so I understand everyone’s concern for overpowering this CAP but take into consideration that we aren't ONLY trying to counter latios/latias and waters.

You are 100% correct, its not JUST about beating those pokemon. The issue I (and other actual OU players have) is that sun is borderline broken already, and that this CAP directly attempts to make Sun even stronger. As I said ages ago, Sun is commonly checked by Heatran, Lati@s (due to often being unable to find a steel type), Rain (skill matchup), Powerful (physical) Dragon types such as Garchomp, Dragonite and Kyurem-B, and random pokemon such as LO RP Landorus-I, Offensive RP Landorus-T and Terrakion. The worry I have is that giving Malaconda Ice Fang means that it beats all those above pokemon with Dugtrio support, bar Kyurem-B (slow, trapped by Dugtrio) and Landorus-T (relying on SE to sweep). Thats basically it. So you can perhaps see my worry considering that with Ice Fang, Malaconda can 2KO / OHKO almost everything that gives a sun team trouble (and Heatran is Dug bait) which actually makes beating a sun team really difficult.

 

[alexwolf]

I can't stand the argument against Ice Fang because it removes Breloom from the counter list because that notion is ridiculous. And not just because you said that there are better ways to deal with them like U-turn and then say we should disallow U-Turn -.-

0 Atk (custom) Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 112-134 (42.74 - 51.14%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

We have a 50% chance of 2HKOing Breloom IF CAP5 runs Ice Fang, Breloom switches in on said Ice Fang, Breloom does not run Low Sweep and/or decides to set up OR CAP5 is Lum and Breloom uses Spore. To put it in perspective, that's like saying Offensive Celebi is not a good switch in to Jellicent because Jellicent can 2HKO with Shadow Ball, or that Gliscor doesn't counter Forretress because Forretress can run HP Ice. We might as well take the notion of switching in safely and throw it out the window. Also, Toxic Orb Breloom still beats CAP5 even if it runs Ice Fang. Breloom can still come in on any of CAP5's STAB moves with perfect ease. Malaconda beats Breloom in a vacuum, but in practice the chances of it beating Breloom are slim and you'd have to be insane or desperate to try to do so.

What Ice Fang DOES do is prevent Salamence, Dragonite and Landorus as turning Malaconda into set up bait. Admittedly, there are better non-attacking methods to preventing them from setting up, but we aren't there yet in the discussion and Ice Fang is currently the best way of preventing Malaconda from being a sitting duck against them. And furthermore, "just because we allow Ice Fang doesn't mean it will get it!" As a side note, I don't think having access to a 65 BP Ice Move is opening up a Choice Band set when you have only 55 Speed and 100 Attack. Allow Ice Fang.

I said there are several other ways to deal with the threats we would want Ice Fang for, and U-turn is one of them, even though i didn't like it at the time a made this post. This thread isn't about me, it's about everyone's opinions and since the majority wants U-turn allowed of 'course i will mention it when discussing other ways that Malaconda has to deal with the targets fo Ice Fang.

You are right that i am a bit paranoid about Ice Fang, but i would rather be safe than sorry. Also, if you read my post carefull you will notice that hitting Breloom is not the only reason i don't like Ice Fang. Ice moves offer super effective hits on many dangerous threats in OU, threats that the CAP shouldn't be able to hit so hard. Malaconda can already 2HKO Landorus and Dragon Dancing dragons without Ice Fang, so i don't get why we need a move that nearly OHKOes them after SR. Being able to prevent something from setting up on you and almost OHKOing it after SR are two entirely different things. Malaconda already 2HKOes (with SR) most set-up sweepers that can get past it, and you want to give it a move that almost OHKOes some of the few sweepers that it can already 2HKO with its STABs? Why?

Out of the common setup sweepers in OU (that are not walled by Malaconda), Malaconda can OHKO-2HKO Keldeo, Terrakion, Landorus, Dragonite, Salamence, Thundurus-T, Venusuar, Gyarados, NP Celebi, and Volcarona, with the help of SR, while the only sweepers that it can't are SD Scizor, SD Toxicroak, SD Lucario, and SD Breloom. Try and compare this to other great defensive Pokemon in OU with similar offenses, such as Jirachi and Ferrothorn. Assuming both Pokemon use two attacking moves as Malaconda does (Malaconda will need Rapid Spin + Recovery/Sub/U-turn, which only leaves room for two attacking moves) and not taking into account non attacking moves as Malaconda doesn't have any of them yet, here are the setup sweepers that can setup on them (avoid the 2HKO from attacking moves after SR):

SpD Jirachi: SubCM Jirachi, LumDDnite, SubDD Gyarados, Jolly SD Breloom (it gets a free turn due to Spore), and SD Scizor
Ferrothorn: SubCM Jirachi, SD Breloom (it gets a free turn due to Spore), SD Scizor, SD Lucario, SubCM Latias

As you can see the CAP can OHKO-2HKO with SR more setup sweepers than two of the defensive Pokemon of OU with the best offensive pressence. And you want to give Ice coverage to this Pokemon? Why? So that RP Landorus can't set up a Rock Polish against Malaconda? Every defensive Pokemon has a few setup sweepers that can abuse its pressence and make it a liability, but this doesn't prevent them from being great Pokemon. Malaconda can't be perfect and some sweepers will be able to setup on it, and this is why you have teammates. Let's not forget that one of the goals of the CAP was to help sun teams with their teamslots, combining multiple roles in one slot so they can afford to have a better defensive core. So in the teamslot that Malaconda saved you, use a Pokemon that deals with RP Landorus such as SpD Bronzong, Mamoswine, Latios or whatever you want.

Finally, Malaconda has such a good offensive pressence against setup sweepers with just Power Whip and Payback. We still haven't even started discussing about non attacking moves. Encore, Dragon Tail, and Whirlwind can all prevent Landorus from setting up with Rock Polish without giving you coverage that lets you almost OHKO some of the best sweepers of OU.

tl;dr All defensive Pokemon have some setup sweeprs that can setup against them but this doesn't prevent them from being excellent at what they do (Ferrothorn and SpD Jirachi). Malaconda can also use more ideal ways to deal with Landorus than Ice Fang, such as Dragon Tail, Encore, and Whirlwind, making Ice Fang both unecessary and possibly dangerous for Malaconda.

Technically you are correct in that its Dugtrio actually eliminating Heatran. However, in practise, if we give it U-Turn, then we remove Heatran form the list of mons that threaten / beat Malaconda. If you look at it in a vacuum then yes, 1v1, Heatran would win, however, in an actual battle scenario, Heatran cannot and will not switch in on Malaconda, something that's quite a large problem when its supposed to be a major counter. Label it however you like, the point is U-Turn means Heatran isn't switching in on Malaconda period (heck a case could potentially be argued for Malaconda decreasing Heatrans usage due to Heatran being unable to handle it + the general sun team) since a simple U-Turn to Dugtrio ends it.

To put it really simply (assuming no HP Ground or something)

On PAPER Heatran countered Genesect
In PRACTISE Heatran didn't counter Genesect since the threat of U-Turn ---> Dugtrio was far too high.

Baton Pass sorta mitigates this issue although its worth noting that Heatran would still have to worry about a Baton Pass to Dugtrio, which simply pops the balloon with Reversal and Earthquakes, thus winning unless Heatran has Flame Charge / Choice Scarf / Magma Storm / is shed shell / gets lucky with a burn. You also still beat SDef Heatran or basically any Heatran that runs Leftovers / has the balloon popped. And again, you also beat Ninetales, a mon that was brought up a lot as something people wanted Malaconda to be checked / countered by so w.e

Very good post and i agree with most of it. However, if Dugtrio comes in against Balloon Heatran via Baton Pass Heatran won't be trapped as you imply and thus won't have his Balloon broken by Reversal. Also, while Baton Pass can still allow the Malaconda player to pivot to Dugtrio and trap Heatran on the switch, so can a double switch. If you think something dangerous is coming into Malaconda then by double switching you get the same result with Baton Passing, especially when considering that Malaconda is so slow that it will most likely get the switch advantage. I know that it's not exactly the same, as if the opposing Pokemon is faster then Malaconda and decides to stay in, then the Pokemon you bring in will maybe get a bad matchup where with Baton Pass you can go to the appropriate Pokemon after seeing that the opponent stayed in, but double switching and Baton Passing are not so far away, at least when the Pokemon in question is not afraid at all of Pursuit users.

 

[shilly]

Ice Shard : Due to Malaconda's low speed and physical bulk, it's still threatened by Salamence and its draconic bretheren. Instead of switching out and losing valuable momentum that sun teams need, Malaconda can OHKO with investment, and OHKO uninvested with stealth rocks. Due to its threat to physical dragons, Ice shard should be allowed.

wouldn't ice fang be a more viable move on a pokemon such as malaconda? the thought of a priority move on such a slow pokemon sounds great, but it seems a strange move on a-- pardon me --snake in the grass, per se. ice fang has higher bp and a chance to freeze AND flinch which make it a threatening addition against dragon types. ice shard has only 40 bp, and with many bulky dragons going around ala garchomp and dragonite maybe a stronger ice move may be preferable.

 

[Bughouse]

The burden of proof on allowing a coverage move should lie with the side trying to convince us we need it.

The arguments for allowing Ice Fang are tenuous at best. Malaconda should be focusing on using Dual Stab, spinning, healing, cleric-ing perhaps, etc. Just look at the freaking stat submission. It was intended to run 252/252+ SpDef and take on everything special. NOT to run 252 Atk and Ice Fang.

Ice Fang only has room on an offensive set for Malaconda and therefore is out of our concept and should be disallowed.

 

[Basileus]

Ice shard is a good alternative to ice fang, priority on slow pokemon always benifit it, well almost always, but I can't think of an example of slow mons that don't benifit. Anyway, I was thinking that Icicle spear would e super helpful becuase of sub breaking. I don't know if it counts as a 25 BP move or a 25-125 BP move and idk if we are allowed to discuss it like because of that but still I thing icicle spear would e a great move on malaconda. Just throwing a third party candidate for ice moves to mix it up a bit I guess.

Sorry for the short post but it's like everyone is talking about ice fang/ice shard/U-turn which should all be allowed. It would make malaconda great on sun teams with ground suppourt.

 

[blitzlefan]

wouldn't ice fang be a more viable move on a pokemon such as malaconda? the thought of a priority move on such a slow pokemon sounds great, but it seems a strange move on a-- pardon me --snake in the grass, per se. ice fang has higher bp and a chance to freeze AND flinch which make it a threatening addition against dragon types. ice shard has only 40 bp, and with many bulky dragons going around ala garchomp and dragonite maybe a stronger ice move may be preferable.

Ice Fang would be inferior to Ice Shard in my opinion due to Malaconda's incredibly low speed and average physical defense, and can only really catch stuff on the switch, as Malaconda will almost always strike last (which coincidentally cancels out the chance to Flinch). This leaves Malaconda vulnerable against foes with super-effective moves, and set up bait for those Malaconda can't OHKO/2HKO, unless it gets a priority move to make up for it. The lower base power means Malaconda is less likely to be overpowered and more likely to be a general utility pokemon (which is what we want I think).

Also, @ Basileus, Icicle Spear would make Malaconda overpowered (we're only looking at relatively low Base Power attacks, and some are still calling them too strong), and would suggest that Malaconda would be a bulky attacker (and I think just an attacker in general), which is not what we want.

 

[capefeather]

Genesect using U-turn is pretty different from Malaconda using U-turn. I'm not saying that U-turn doesn't weaken Heatran as a check, but let's keep in mind that when Genesect used U-turn, it was just spamming its STAB, whereas with Malaconda, it has to choose to use an (at best) iffy coverage move to get the switching effect. There's considerably more risk for Malaconda than there is/was for Scizor/Genesect.

That said, I have separated Dragon Tail from the other Dragon-type moves because it could actually be an alternative that doesn't do what U-turn does to get people worried. I initially disliked it because it was just changing the opponent to a random mon instead of taking advantage of a lure, but it is something to think about.

I've been kind of disappointed by the generality of some of these arguments. People have been fixating on Ice Fang, disallowing stronger moves, but there weren't any specific arguments backing that up. I went ahead and determined that there it made a difference against stuff like Breloom and Gliscor, but I would have preferred if more people talked about it. I suppose there wasn't that much need in the end, but still.

I'm also kind of puzzled at Fire Fang. Jabba and kd24 came on IRC suggesting that Fire Fang might be needed, yet that suggestion didn't end up translating into the thread. *shrugs*

 

[kakuna]

Sorry, but what exactly is malaconda built to counter? I would guess most water types, cyclohm, and special dragons but I don't know if I quite understand.

In terms of other dark type moves this guy needs pursuit. Looking at his barren movepool he will probably end up with sets consisting of 1-2 attacking moves, 1-2 support moves, and some sort of recovery, which I am assuming he will recieve. Giving him pursuit will give his attacking moves a real meaning instead of just methods of doing damage. Pursuit could actually warrant attack EVs on this snake which might promote diversity. If he was made to get rid of the latis, then we should give him a move to eliminate them.

 

[Vann Accessible]

The burden of proof on allowing a coverage move should lie with the side trying to convince us we need it.

The arguments for allowing Ice Fang are tenuous at best. Malaconda should be focusing on using Dual Stab, spinning, healing, cleric-ing perhaps, etc. Just look at the freaking stat submission. It was intended to run 252/252+ SpDef and take on everything special. NOT to run 252 Atk and Ice Fang.

Ice Fang only has room on an offensive set for Malaconda and therefore is out of our concept and should be disallowed.

Let's be honest. Malaconda isn't going to switch into a boosted Dragonite and Salamence and OHKO it with Ice Fang. It's too slow. It might revenge kill a weakened one with Ice Shard locked into Outrage, but that's fair. Having Ice Fang deters dragons from setting up in front of it, but it won't be netting kills with it left and right. Malaconda will be outspeed and killed easily by boosted Dragonite or Salamence. So having ice, at best makes it a dragon check, but as a rule, not a full a fledged dragon killer. It's still defensive.

And what about ground types? Malaconda being a grass type was chosen so it could tank water moves AND ground moves aimed at Ninetales and be able to fight back. Two very important (if not THE most important) ground types aren't weak to grass: Gliscor and Landorous. Not being able to hit these guys would just suck. Look:

Scenario 1: Lum Malaconda vs Toxic Stall Gliscor
Ninetales switched out to Malaconda.
Gliscor used Earthquake. It's not very effective.
Gliscor used Toxic. Malaconda was badly poisoned.
Malaconda's Lum Berry cured it of its poison!
Malaconda used Power Whip. It did some pathetic weak ass damage.
Malaconda Harvested a Lum Berry. Gliscor's Poison Heal recovered 12%.
Gliscor used Protect.
Malaconda used Rest. Malaconda feel asleep and recovered all its health.
Malaconda ate its Lum Berry and woke up!
Gliscor's Poison Heal recovered 12%.

Have fun with a long, sucky stall fight.

It is worth noting that Acrobatics Gliscor still beats Malaconda, which is fine.

Scenario 2:
Malaconda vs Life Orb Landorus
Ninetales switched out to Malaconda.
Landorous used Earthquake. It's not very effective.
At this point you could switch out, but you'd still loose momentum. If you decided to stay in...
Malaconda used Sucker Punch. Landorous took some average damage.
Landorous used U-Turn. It's super effective! Malaconda fainted.

These two scenarios will happen constantly if Malaconda doesn't have Ice Shard, at the very least. Malaconda's ground move tanking ability will be severely compromised without Ice Shard, and thus, will be a less effective defensive pivot.

Allow Ice Fang and Ice Shard.

 

[Yomegami]

On Dragon Tail:

I'm in support of this move since it allows Malaconda to mess up its counters if it predicts their switch-in, while still leaving it not completely equipped to deal with its counters if they're already standing in front of it (unless SD Scizor predicts wrong and tries setting up on the turn Malaconda uses Dragon Tail). In addition, Malaconda can act as a phazer for the team and rack up entry hazard damage after a counter's removed, letting its teammates sweep easier (and by the looks of things, Malaconda's well-tailored to perform a supporting role). Plus, Dragon Tail can be a source of annoyance when used on the opposing team, and that gets it bonus points in my book. Allow Dragon Tail.

On Water Moves:

Looking over the threatlist, I fail to see how a water move of any sort would help Malaconda beat the things it's supposed to. The only things on that list that DON'T resist water are Gengar, Jolteon, and Thundurus-T, and having a water move won't make taking those on any easier and they're all hit just as hard by one of Malaconda's STABs.

On the other hand, rain-boosted water moves have the potential to mess up quite a few of the things on the "be threatened by" list. With a rain-boosted Aqua Tail, Malaconda can 2HKO most variants of Heatran without SR on the field even without any attack investment or an attack-boosting nature (and the rest get 2HKO'd after SR).

Aqua Tail Calcs vs. Heatran

0 Atk Malaconda Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in rain: 184-218 (56.96 - 67.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Malaconda Aqua Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran in rain: 184-218 (56.79 - 67.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Malaconda Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran in rain: 184-218 (47.79 - 56.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk (custom) Aqua Tail vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Heatran in rain: 184-218 (47.91 - 56.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I suppose one could run a physically defensive Heatran, but if Malaconda's forcing Heatran to do that then we're doing something wrong here. From this, I think giving it Aqua Tail (or any sufficiently powerful physical water move) would just make a band set too attractive to rain teams to warrant it. Disallow Water Moves.

 

[Theorymon]

Sorry that I'm sorta unsure about some of these, but here's what I think at the moment!

U-turn

I do understand the criticism for U-turn, since this is just asking for Malaconda to be paired with Dugtrio to wreck Ninetales and Heatran, even though you can argue that its Dugtrio who is dealing with them, and not Malaconda. However, I think this is a necessary evil for this CAP, because without U-turn, I think Malaconda is just going to be a massive momentum loser for sun teams instead of an invaluable teammmate. I know a few people will mention "but what about Baton Pass?". While I'd support that too, this is the attacking move thread, so I don't think thats too relevant yet. Anyways, I feel that despite the Dugtrio problem, U-turn NEEDS to be allowed.

Dragon Tail

I know you don't have this separated from Dragon moves capefeather, but I think that is actually a mistake! Dragon Tail is quite a bit weaker than other Dragon moves (so that means it isn't exactly checking any extra Dragons with this move), but most importantly, gives Malaconda a valuable, untauntable phazing move. Much like U-turn, this can make Malaconda less of a liability for sun teams, because now you can't have stuff like Dragonite and Salamence setting up on it, BUT at the same time, those two can still use their physical STABs to give Malaconda some serious wounds. So I think Dragon Tail should be allowed regardless of wether or not other Dragon moves are.

Other Bug-type moves

Ehh honestly, Hydreigon isn't really that common in the first place, and I don't think giving this thing a way to slam Celebi harder is really that big of a deal. Plus, if U-turn is allowed, I'm sure no one will bother with thses moves, so let them be allowed.

Fire Fang

Yeah yeah I know everyone expects me to go on about how we should totally have Fire move coverage, because near the beginning of the CAP I said I was seriously thinking about stuff like Flare Blitz (or maybe even V-create :P) depending on where this CAP's direction went... but the direction this CAP has gone makes Fire moves something that probably shouldn't be allowed.

While I have always personally liked the idea of this thing having Fire-type attacks, the end of the threats discussion clearly lead to us deciding that this CAP is going to have problems with quite a few steels (ESPECIALLY Scizor according to the last post in the thread). Even with only 4 Attack EVs, you are dealing 82-97% to bulky Scizor with Sunny Fire Fang. which is really going to harm Scizor's ability to deal with Malaconda! And like Dfrog said, you can actually deal over 50% to Forretress and Ferrothorn in the sun. There is also another reason Im iffy about Fire Fang: It's because if you REALLY hate Scizor, you could actually run HP Fire! That base 40 SpA may be a joke, but with a Sassy nature and sun support, you can still deal 52% minimum to the standard CB Scizor, 2HKO Physically defensive Scizor, and even deal 45.5 - 53.89% to Physically Defensive Skarmory!

So really, when it comes to Fire Fang, its really more about "is hitting Scizor harder and doing lots to Ferrothorn important" rather than "hitting Steels" in general, since again we CAN use HP Fire. So in conclusion, I don't think Fire Fang is needed beyond being a better HP Fire, so I'm against it at the moment, but I'm pretty open to being swayed by some more arguments on it!

Dragon-type and other Ice-type moves

I've done some calcs for Dragon Claw... and I'm not really THAT impressed. Assuming 4 Atk, you don't even 2HKO Black Kyurem or max HP Dragonite, and you are dealing 42-50% to Mixmence. Also, Power Whip does more to Garchomp than Dragon Claw does. Now, I guess it isn't a terrible move since that's still more than what Payback or Crunch are doing on the switch... however, these physical Dragons can still do a massive amount of damage to you, so its pretty much an on the switch move. Outrage is also really terrible on this CAP.. so I think Dragon moves being allowed wouldn't be a terrible thing.

As for Ice moves, that's a more interesting topic. With Ice Fang, you deal MUCH more than Dragon Claw, stuff like 68-88% to mixmence. So you'll 2HKO Salamence, Garchomp, and sometimes Dragonite, and you deal a nice 43-51% to Breloom. You also have the bonus of 2HKOing Gliscor and Landorus. I think Ice Fang isn't really that game breaking because its something you NEED to use on the switch, because the above mentioned besides some Gliscor are gonna hit you really hard with their powerful physical attacks. Despite that, I realize that people want those Dragons and Breloom to be big issues for this CAP, so I can see why people want it to be disallowed. Granted,

However, in the threatlist, I was under the impression that Dragons are supposed to be a more middle ground... so I think Ice Beam might actually be an alright option. With this and a Sassy nature, you can still 2HKO , Salamence, Landorus, and Gliscor, Garchomp is only 2HKOed with hazards support (taking 43-51%), Roosting Dragonite with even min HP being able to stall Malaconda thanks to taking 42-50%, and Breloom really doesn't care as much, taking 38.93 - 46.56% from Ice Beam. So in conclusion, I'm fine with Ice Fang, but think that if Ice Fang becomes disallowed, that Ice Beam should still be discussed, since I think it's disadvantages vs Dragonite and Breloom might be significant.

Ice Shard

Hmm... well on one hand, Ice Shard is really really weak. In fact, it's exactly as powerful as Dragon Claw vs the 4x weaks. On the other hand, This does make Malaconda pretty good at picking off weakened Dragons... Now that is useful for Sun teams, but I think making the 4x weak Dragons always fear about getting into the KO range of Malaconda may be a bit much, so atm I'm for Ice Shard being disallowed.

Final Gambit

Honestly I think Final Gambit is one of the worst moves in the game unless its like Hackmons, so I don't really care if its allowed or not >_>.

Super Fang

Super Fang really isn't that great of a move... but it does chip off half the health of a bunch of mons we want to threaten Malaconda... so I guess I'd prefer for it to be in disallowed.

ExtremeSpeed

ExtremeSpeed is priority so I guess it can't be bad... but with base 100 Atk and no STAB, its also really really weak (especially since this thing is looking like a defensive Pokemon). So... really, I don't mind it being in allowed because it doesn't sound that good beyond sniping some weakened Pokemon.

Horn Leech

Do we really need to give this thing more potential recovery options? We already have Harvest and the possibility for stuff like Synthesis... On the other hand, Power Whip is a much stronger move against important targets like Politoed. The recovery makes me lean twords disallowed, but I'm not really super against it either.

PS: Water moves on this sounds pretty silly considering the whole sun thing lol

 

[CiteAndPrune]

This topic sure progressed since my last post. Now to just squeeze in a reply while I can.


U-turn - Since Malaconda does not get STAB on it, we're really discussing it for the switch effect, so like with Dragon Tail and Rapid Spin, I believe it should belong in the Non-Attacking Moves discussion actually, instead of here (where it can be discussed along with Baton Pass). It got pulled in because all Bug moves were discussed, but now that it's been singled out, I honestly believe leaving it until later and bringing it up again in NA Moves is right.

If we do have to decide now, I'm unsure about U-Turn. Honestly the token damage it'd deal on resists, Scizor in particular, is not impressive and I'd rather predict the counter and switch, or do a slow Baton Pass out. The one exception is breaking Heatran's Balloon for Dugtrio which is not a case in favour of it really.

Other Bug-type moves - Depends on how we want to address a mirror match. If Malaconda should counter itself, then allow Bug Bite will suffice for both the x4 weakness and Berry removal effect. If not, disallow all Bug-type moves.

Ice Shard - While it nails x4 targets like Salamence, Dragonite, Garchomp, Gliscor and Landorus, Sucker Punch has double its Base Power and is STAB boosted. It changes the HP ranges at which they are no longer safe, and might require some ATK investment too, but it all 5 of those are neutral to Sucker Punch and if they try to dodge it by not attacking (but stay in to boost again) then Punishment hits them even harder. All without giving Malaconda access to Ice coverage it doesn't need. In short, disallow Ice Shard.

Dragon-type and other Ice-type moves - I think Dragon Tail is worth allowing to get around Taunt, leaving the choice between it and Roar/Whirlwind up to the players. Otherwise, the Dragon and Ice moves have nothing going for them, really. Disallow except Dragon Tail.

Fire Fang - I prefer Malaconda to rely on its teammates to provide the Fire attacks, it'll promote synergy among the team. Disallow.

Final Gambit - With its low speed, Malaconda will likely need to take a hit first. If it were to sacrifice itself, Sucker Punch works better for last-ditch damage and other self-sacrifice moves have better uses. Disallow.

Super Fang - I'm unsure on this one, as well as Night Shade. For now I'd say Allow, but I don't really see them making final movepolls.

ExtremeSpeed - Sucker Punch will suffice for the targets we're aiming after. Disallow.

Horn Leech - I think this move is at cross-purposes for Malaconda. With Sitrus Berry, Lum Rest, potentially Synthesis and Leech Seed, its recovery is independent of its attacking stats so it can invest all EVs in bulk. For Horn Leech, it won't heal much unless you add up to its ATK. That's not a route we should be supporting, IMO. Disallow.

 

[ganj4lF]

Technically you are correct in that its Dugtrio actually eliminating Heatran. However, in practise, if we give it U-Turn, then we remove Heatran form the list of mons that threaten / beat Malaconda. If you look at it in a vacuum then yes, 1v1, Heatran would win, however, in an actual battle scenario, Heatran cannot and will not switch in on Malaconda, something that's quite a large problem when its supposed to be a major counter. Label it however you like, the point is U-Turn means Heatran isn't switching in on Malaconda period (heck a case could potentially be argued for Malaconda decreasing Heatrans usage due to Heatran being unable to handle it + the general sun team) since a simple U-Turn to Dugtrio ends it.

To put it really simply (assuming no HP Ground or something)

On PAPER Heatran countered Genesect
In PRACTISE Heatran didn't counter Genesect since the threat of U-Turn ---> Dugtrio was far too high.

I am aware of this issue, but I think it's sorta unavoidable for the simple fact that almost every Sun team carries Dugtrio, and Dugtrio screws Heatran in most cases even without U-Turn support (at least, in my experience). That's why I put more emphasis on saying that it's Dugtrio that stops Heatran: while it's true that it helps Malaconda going past one of its counters, it's the reason it's used in a Sun team in the first place. I don't think we can "solve" this "problem" (which I'm unsure it's a problem at all, since the main problem for Sun in the current meta is the prevalence of Rain and Sand, and its vulnerability to SR, not the fact that Heatran exists) just by not giving it U-Turn or Baton Pass, and since giving said moves to it solve a number of issues that many people have with being complete set-up bait for Scizor & co, I think it's reasonable to at least allow those moves.

 

[Allethosea]

I'd like to note Theorymon's suggestion of Ice Beam possibly being used over Ice Fang. Like he pointed out, it still nets 2HKOs on important threats (Salamence, Landorus, Gliscor) with stealth rock down but only 3HKOs Breloom with rocks up and isn't threatening to defensive Dragonite. It also remedies the possible worry of creating a bulky physical attacker or a choice band set since it's special and comes off of base 40 SpAtk. Allow Ice Beam if Ice Fang is disallowed.

I'm also still in favor of allowing U-Turn because it's not guaranteed to be put into the final moveset but still has merits with the momentum it gains. I can see the potential problem of breaking Heatran's Balloon, which is obviously not good with Dugtrio getting a free KO and removing a large sun counter, but I think that it should be allowed for the time being so that further discussion between it and Baton Pass can be had.

I don't really agree with the idea of Fire Fang at all - even if it would solidify Malaconda as a sun Pokemon. The ability to outright KO Scizor in sun is not something that I think we need. So long as it gets either U-Turn or Baton Pass Scizor won't make it a liability. Teammates exist for a reason and a sun team should have no shortage of fire moves. Disallow Fire Fang.

 

[alexwolf]

I'd like to note Theorymon's suggestion of Ice Beam possibly being used over Ice Fang. Like he pointed out, it still nets 2HKOs on important threats (Salamence, Landorus, Gliscor) with stealth rock down but only 3HKOs Breloom with rocks up and isn't threatening to defensive Dragonite. It also remedies the possible worry of creating a bulky physical attacker or a choice band set since it's special and comes off of base 40 SpAtk. Allow Ice Beam if Ice Fang is disallowed.

Landorus and Salamence are already 2HKOed by Power Whip and Payback respectively, so i don't see why you would need any ice attack. Gliscor is not so important anyway as it can't do anything to Malaconda while Malaconda can potentially pp stall it if it has Rapid Spin, and Sun teams already don't have huge troubles with Gliscor anyway (Balloon Heatran coutners SubToxic Gliscor and defensive Glicor is not an issue as it is easy to OHKO with sun's boosted fire attacks).

 

[capefeather]

We're getting to the end, now, so here are my penultimate (actually probably final) thoughts and rulings:

There doesn't seem to be strong opposition to phazing, and Dragon-type moves, Super Fang and ExtremeSpeed appear fairly unimportant compared to other things, so those have been allowed. Not that I see ExtremeSpeed realistically making it into a movepool, but that's a matter for the submissions to decide.

Ice Shard has had strong opposition compared to mild support, so it has been disallowed. Final Gambit and Horn Leech are probably not important in the grand scheme of things. However, the former is the kind of half-gimmick that people will likely insert for mildly competitive reasons, and I don't see a reason to break the Final Gambit damage record with Malaconda. Same goes for Horn Leech, plus there's the fact that it's Sawsbuck's signature move and the little advantage that it has over other Grass-type moves has gotten negative reaction.

The most contention has certainly been felt with Ice Fang. Some think that Malaconda needs Ice Fang to help it be more viable (and viability is especially relevant to this concept), but others are equally opposed to it for hitting a large portion of Dragon-types and doubly weak Ground-types, which normally threaten sun. There are also people who are unsure. In my view, this move is perfect to put to a vote.

Bug-type moves have been the hardest for me to gauge. A lot of arguments against Bug-type moves other than U-turn seem to rely on it being unnecessary coverage, but there's unnecessary in terms of being anti-concept, and there's unnecessary in terms of being redundant. If Ice Fang is allowed, then every Bug-type move would be redundant on everything except maybe Megahorn on Ferrothorn. If not, then Megahorn is kind of relevant. Since Ice Fang is controversial, I have disallowed Megahorn to prevent things from becoming too complicated, but the weaker moves have been allowed. I also think that U-turn should go into Controversial, though I'm not as sure about it as I am for Ice Fang.

Lastly, Fire Fang has been given enough of a chance (I even argued a possible favourable reason for it) and has finally been put to bed. However, it has revealed a disagreement among some people as to what the threat list we made much earlier means. I see the threat list as being intentionally vague and open to clarification and possibly even modification. I hinted at this view by listing the probable targets of coverage moves along with the coverage moves. It was sort of doing the movepool discussions and the counters discussion at the same time. However, I feel like a lot of people went into this thinking, "This move hits some of our threats, so it's bad." The questions I meant to answer were stuff like:

"How should we interact with the threats we've laid out? Should X be a counter, or strong check, or weak check to Malaconda? Does X make Malaconda a liability? Are there Pokemon we didn't designate as threats, but should now check/counter Malaconda?"

I just think that we only ever decided on "threats", a term that I would define as anything that prompts a response specific to it. Being such a slow Pokemon, giving Malaconda a coverage move does not prevent opposing Pokemon from compelling it to respond, but merely gives Malaconda a different response option. Of course, Malaconda is still faster than Ferrothorn and Forretress, but I didn't like the blanket notion that a coverage move would prevent faster threats from being threats anymore. This may be something to think about more as a policy issue after the project.

Anyway, I'm now giving this thread 24 hours. You can post final thoughts on the lists we've created (maybe you think U-turn should just be allowed, for example), or whatever else is relevant. If nothing else, I left one last category into, uh, "Need Discussion" if anyone feels like kicking it on its way out :P