CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion

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erisia

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I agree with pretty much all of the decisions made with this stage, except for maybe disallowing Fire Fang. However, I don't think people should discount Ice Fang because it makes offensive sets more viable. How is it bad for Malaconda to run an offensive set like 252 HP / 252 Atk with a Sitrus berry if it still achieves the goal of spinning and being a pivot for Sun teams? Using an offensive set lets Malaconda fulfill its role in a slightly different, non-destructive way. People are not going to be running a Band on this thing as locking Malaconda into any of Power Whip, Crunch, Ice Fang, or Rapid Spin lets the opponent switch in a counter far too easily, destroying the Sun team's hard fought momentum. These moves have a ton of bulky (or quad) resists and just aren't good spamming moves. Heck, Politoed could switch into locked Ice Fang / Rapid Spin and just muck around.

As such, I don't see the problem with U-Turn either. Either offensive pivots run it and get a lot better at conserving momentum for Sun teams (which is exactly what we want) or people run bad choice sets, realize how bad they are, and switch to the offensive pivot sets instead.

Remember, Malaconda is not going to be an inherent powerhouse like Aurumoth, as it has so many checks and counters. We can afford to give it these extra tools to make it more viable without it becoming overbearing. U-Turn is just about the best addition for aligning Malaconda to Sun teams outside of Fire Fang due to its momentum conservation, and Ice Fang lets it hit Dragonite / Salamence and co on the switch, helping Sun teams to fend off even more dangerous Dragons.
 
Posting my final thoughts.

As Water is still on the Needs Discussion list, at this point I'm not really sure how necessary it would be, because it's coverage that has a very small niche in helping remove some rain mons but mostly brings trouble. It would give Rain users more reason to use to, as it gets a Pseudo-STAB against all of the types we want to threaten it. It also really doesn't do anything to help it threaten what we want to threaten besides really frail mons such as Gengar and Alakazam. The water moves are also weakened in Sun, but still hit Fire types that we want to threaten us for SE damage. That's not as appealing as it appears, though.
0Atk Jirachi (Neutral) Aqua Tail in Sun vs 4HP/0Def Infernape (Neutral): 29% - 35% (88 - 104 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
0Atk Jirachi (Neutral) Aqua Tail in Sun vs 252HP/0Def Flash Fire Ninetales (Neutral): 23% - 28% (82 - 98 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.
0Atk Jirachi (Neutral) Aqua Tail in Sun vs 4HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 29% - 35% (92 - 110 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

These calcs show that water coverage really doesn't help in Sun, which is the environment we want Malaconda to thrive in. It'd mostly help his argument for Rain usage as he gets a Psuedo-STAB against all his threats and even more against Fire Types. The coverage is also somewhat redundant of Ground and Rock, bar Ground/Flying types such as Gliscor. For these reason, I would say Disallow Water Coverage.

As for U-Turn, I already stated I don't really like it earlier. I'd prefer it'd be disallowed, however as Bug type moves are already allowed I'd be okay with it. My final vote is Disallow U-Turn, because it seems there isn't enough extreme pros to using it that outweigh the cons.

As for Ice Fang, it gives much needed coverage that the Latis would also be afraid to switch into and allows it to hit Ground/Flying types that Grass STAB would hit them if they weren't part Flying. Weakens Sandstorm's effect on Sun. Allow Ice Fang.
 
I'm going to say that Water coverage could be a pretty bad thing.

Disallow Water Coverage.

Water-type moves could allow Malaconda to become used on Rain teams - the Rain would benefit Malaconda by helping with Fire-types, and would also give Malaconda psuedo-STAB on it's Water-type moves, effectively allowing them to hit with some substantial power on the Fire-type counters that we need for Malaconda. It would also increase the usage of Rain teams with a new counter to Lati@s.

So, all that's basically been said before, but seriously, Water-type moves on Nalaconda could really mess up the flow with what we're hoping to achieve regarding Malaconda.
 

ganj4lF

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I just noticed that Poison moves are not onto the list (neither allowed, disallowed, or pending). While I don't have a strong opinion on those yet, I think we should at least consider what to do with those moves, especially since it would be natural to consider them when doing a movepool submission for a snake (yes, I know, this is not the place to discuss flavor). I'm leaning towards disallowing them, since they threaten Breloom in the exact same way Ice Fang does. However, Poison coverage is so horrible against lots of things that I'm not sure it's worth disallowing: Malaconda users probably won't use that anyway thanks to 4MSS and similar issues.
 
the worst thing ever just happened, I spent like 30 minutes writing comment and doing calcs and my internet lost connection. I really don't want to write my 500-word comment all over again so here is a brief summary:

The one huge problem I had was Ice shard being banned because without priority on any ice moves malaconda becomes useless against SEVERAL ground and dragons that we were trying to counter. My calculations proved they were not OP, and that Wood hammer power whip actually did MORE damage to the average gliscor, landorus-t, and was about the exact same on garachomp. But now with 60 base defense and moving last garuntees that absolutely every single physical dragon in OU can OHKO 0def/0hp offensive malaconda. Also, ice shard is not even op because against odef/ohp multiscale dragonite it isn't even a 2HKO but a 3HKO and dragonite almost guarantees an OHKO on malaconda. This is almost EXACTLY like cacturne and shiftry.

So without ice shard ice fang is the only thing that can even remotely give malaconda an edge against dragons. It's edge against dragons, steels, ground types, and water types is it's entire purpose so don't complain bout how it counters the entire OU tier when its entire purpouse is to basically have coverage over basically the entire tier. I feel like no one even cares what I have to say...
Please allow ice fang, if you don't I fear this cap will be a failure.

I also wanted to say that fire fang disallowed was a huge shock to me but I am fine with it as long as my suggestion for an even more viable fire move in non-attacking move discussion gets allowed. I sure hope it does...
(flame wheel)

Finally, I don't understand how U-turn is even a problem because it isn't even that good on malaconda because of its speed. What does it get, coverage on celebi? allow it because it may help on rare occasions but it isn't even super viable except for maybe luring in some Pokemon that is good against malaconda (like every single dragon and steel type).

EDIT: I agree with the above comments that poison moves should be discussed, but now is not the time nor place and I think that if it isn't disallowed/pending/controversial/need discussion then it is automatically allowed. However, I am really annoyed by how much this is turning into a snake version of Cacturne now with adding poison moves. I hope that beign in dissallowed doesn't mean it is a 100% guarantee all of those moves will be banned, is it? ugh, I am frustrated with typing in general, why couldn't of this cap been a super unique type combo like normal/ice?
 

erisia

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I'd be all for allowing Poison type attacks. I haven't heard of any Pokemon that uses non-STAB Poison type attacks outside of, what, Rain Dance Seismitoad? I don't think anyone would seriously be inclined to use a move that hits one Pokemon in the tier hard and does literally nothing else (like Iron Head vs Kyurem) Gunk Shot is debatable, but then it'd be too inaccurate for a lot of people to use. So imo, allow all Poison-type attacks

Water-type attacks on the other hand are the absolute worst thing we could give CAP5. It would be a great temptation to use Aqua Tail Malaconda on Rain teams, and it would ruin specially offensive Fire-types in Drizzle, which is exactly what we want to avoid. I see no reason at all to add Water-type coverage when all it does is screw up Malaconda's concept and threat-list, and add redundant coverage vs Ground and Rock types. So I'd like to disallow all Water-type attacks.
 

ginganinja

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Remember, Malaconda is not going to be an inherent powerhouse like Aurumoth, as it has so many checks and counters. We can afford to give it these extra tools to make it more viable without it becoming overbearing.
Except we have just given Sun a pokemon that basically beats EVERYTHING that sun has issues with, a mon, which can abuse Sitrus or Lum/ChestoRest giving it massive recovery, a mon that has massive bulk, that can 2KO large amounts of the meta and you... don't see a problem? Ice / Grass / Dark doesn't get perfect coverage, but off the top of my head its missing out on only a few steels like Skarm / Lucario / Ferro / Heatran / Scizor (and 3 of those are shit options if we actually give it Fire Fang and Tran is Dug bait). Considering that a sun team utterly shits on most steel types, and can even attempt to set up on a few of them, you actually have a problem "beating" sunlight when your checks and counters are so badly sun weak.

Please don't assume its just Malaconda your facing, its got partners (ie Dugtrio, and mons like Heatran, Venusaur, Victini, Volcarona) all available to it and right now giving it Ice Fang / U-Turn make actually beating sun exceptionally difficult.

Finally, I don't understand how U-turn is even a problem because it isn't even that good on malaconda because of its speed. What does it get, coverage on celebi? allow it because it may help on rare occasions but it isn't even super viable except for maybe luring in some Pokemon that is good against malaconda (like every single dragon and steel type).
U-Turn to Heatran is the main problem I and others have with it, since it shuts down Heatran and Ninetales as checks to it.

But now with 60 base defense and moving last garuntees that absolutely every single physical dragon in OU can OHKO 0def/0hp offensive malaconda.
Thats nice I guess, just the minor problem of CAP 5 actually you know, being 100% able to run 252 / 252+ and not really give a shit? Even 252 HP can tank a lot, while fully defensive still cam make use of that 100 base attack and still hit very hard. Birkal and I have posted calculations and it can take hits from the strongest dragons in the game. Ice Fang lets it go for a KO with SR or whatever on some of them while it tanks them, and recovers off health via Sitrus or Lum/Chesto Rest.

We don't have to beat everything ffs, its ok to lose to certain pokemon, as this (hopefully) makes CAP 5 (and sunlight) actually beatable. ALready its fulfilled its concept in decreasing the usage of 2 highly used dragon pokemon, as well as many members of a rain team. Like, isn't that enough?
 

Nyktos

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I do agree that Water coverage is stupid, but I feel like the argument that it makes Malaconda good on rain is a pretty bad one. There is nothing wrong with rain teams using Malaconda. Malaconda is pretty bad against sun, so rain teams using it are making themselves worse against sun, which is good for us.

The reason Water coverage is stupid is that it doesn't help against anything we want to beat, and does help against Fire types. The fact that it's useless in sun and therefore will likely only be used by other teams is also relevant. But the fact that rain teams might use it is not, but itself, a real problem.

I'm not convinced U-turn really counts as controversial. I don't see a lot of strong opposition to it. What I see is a lot of strong support and a lot of fence-sitting. I would expect a move considered "controversial" to have a lot more people strongly against it than U-turn seems to. That said, I have no real problem with it being put up for a vote.

The only other thing I wanted to mention was Shadow Sneak which I kinda like the idea of, but doing the calcs it's pretty awful even against Gengar so whatever.
 
Water-Type Moves : Since water hits none of the types we are targeting, and is coverage against fire, which is supposed to counter us, there is no point in allowing Water-Type moves.
Ice Fang : Ice Fang allows us to threaten Salamence, Dragonite (with Stealth Rock), and discourage Garchomp from switching in. Due to its contribution to our concept, Ice Fang has every reason to be allowed.
U-Turn :
U-turn : Suppose Hydreigon just used dark pulse, and you switch into it. now, two things can happen; Hydreigon switches to one of our counters, or it continues attacking. In both cases, you can use U-turn, either dealing damage to Hydreigon, then bringing in a revenge killer, or escaping one of your counters. This allows Malaconda to keep the momentum in its team's favor. Allowing U-turn.
I think I said all that needs to be said about U-Turn here in terms of what it does for our concept.

@Shilly, if you had read through my post, you would have noticed that i was supporting Ice Fang.
 
Ice Fang should definitely be an option for Malaconda. As said before, it's really the only thing we have that can threaten Dragon-types. If our concept is to not only be a good addition to sun-teams but to be a Type-Equalizer altogether, then Ice Fang at the very least should be allowed to marginally decrease the amount of Dragon-types that would love to frolic in rain. We risk Mixed Dragonite and most Garchomps otherwise giving both Malaconda and the rest of our sun-teams a lot of trouble if the option isn't at least there. Allow it.

U-turn is another move that should be allowed. Legend13 really hit the nail on the mark with this example.
Suppose Hydreigon just used dark pulse, and you switch into it. now, two things can happen; Hydreigon switches to one of our counters, or it continues attacking. In both cases, you can use U-turn, either dealing damage to Hydreigon, then bringing in a revenge killer, or escaping one of your counters. This allows Malaconda to keep the momentum in its team's favor. Allowing U-turn.
The thing about sun-teams is that they really lack momentum compared to other team archetypes, which means that allowing U-turn actually lets sun keep offensive presence against other weather. Without a move to allow for Malaconda to pivot, we still face problems with maintaining sunlight, because let's face it, Ninetales is a horrible switch-in when it's taking both Stealth Rock damage and whatever other attack. Tyranitar and Politoed can switch in and out with little care on part of having plentiful amounts of U-turn users and no weakness to Stealth Rock. Malaconda needs this.

Also please disallow Water-type moves. Seriously, Malaconda has no place using these. Grass-typing can hit Rock and Ground-types just fine while we're obviously already weak to and trying to promote more Fire-types. This being said, its coverage is redundant against sandstorm teams and is useless against rain teams. Unless you can convince me that Hurricane Volcarona is going to be threatening our entire sun team, Water-coverage hits nothing that Grass can't.
 
I see no point to the Water coverage. Its super-effective hits overlap with Grass, except for Fire Pokemon who should threaten Malaconda, and its ineffective hits are superior to Grass' but Malaconda's job is to hit specific threats with its STABs and not really be a general-purpose attacker. Disallow all Water moves.

I'd like to see the Poison moves allowed, there's not much going for them but they might just surprise Breloom whereas Venusaur is neutral to them and hit harder by most of our Dark moves anyway. They might as well be allowed and left to the movepoll submitters to select. Allow all Poison moves.

I'm fine with Ice Fang and U-Turn being put forward to a vote. Good call there capefeather.

Shadow Sneak and possibly Night Shade got ignored. I'd like to at least get a call on them, I don't see them making it into too many movepolls, but they have their own little uses. Please allow Shadow Sneak and Night Shade. It's not like they'll break CAP5, they might just open up new options like against SubDisable Gengar (who is one of our targets) and as a mono-type attack on fully defensive Malaconda (although... there's always Toxic stall, so yeah).
 
we have just given Sun a pokemon that basically beats EVERYTHING that sun has issues with

Gliscor: ice fang, U-turn, fire fang, several fighting moves,95attack, 2 weaknesses, 95 speed, OU tier.

Hydregion: ice fang, U-turn, several fire moves, superpower, 2 weaknesses, 105attack, 98 speed, OU tier.

Primeape: ice punch, U-turn, fire punch, a lot of fighting moves, 2 weaknesses, 105 attack, 95 speed, NU tier.

If they can't break sun, I dont think a poke with six weaknesses, 100 attack, 55 speed, and 60 defense can. Plenty of Pokemon have no counters at all, only checks. Please stop telling me this will break sun, I am almost positive it won't. I really think that if mala doesn't get perfect coverage then he won't get anything done. With 55 speed, 60 defense, and six huge weaknesses in OU he basically has to have some sort of stellar move pool and dream world ability if he wants to pull off anything in OU.
 

ganj4lF

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Gliscor: ice fang, U-turn, fire fang, several fighting moves,95attack, 2 weaknesses, 95 speed, OU tier.

Hydregion: ice fang, U-turn, several fire moves, superpower, 2 weaknesses, 105attack, 98 speed, OU tier.

Primeape: ice punch, U-turn, fire punch, a lot of fighting moves, 2 weaknesses, 105 attack, 95 speed, NU tier.

If they can't break sun, I dont think a poke with six weaknesses, 100 attack, 55 speed, and 60 defense can. Plenty of Pokemon have no counters at all, only checks. Please stop telling me this will break sun, I am almost positive it won't. I really think that if mala doesn't get perfect coverage then he won't get anything done. With 55 speed, 60 defense, and six huge weaknesses in OU he basically has to have some sort of stellar move pool and dream world ability if he wants to pull off anything in OU.
While I don't 100% agree with ginga, your argument is incredibly awful and proves absolutely nothing. I don't see how you picked those pokemon to compare to Malaconda: they have completely different roles, stats, and whatever else. Furthermore, you are ignoring the fact that Malaconda has awesome bulk (specially, but it's no slouch physically either), a very strong ability, and is tailor made to not only beat, but trap one of the best checks for Sun teams (Lati@s) (it also handles most Water pokemon as well). None of the above can do the same, they are just generally powerful pokemon (except Primeape...) that may or may not help Sun in achieving a sweep (I don't see the point of Gliscor, but I digress). I can't see the meaning of your comparison at all, so if I missed something, please enlighten me; otherwise, this argument is quite worthless in my opinion.
 

alexwolf

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Ice Fang should definitely be an option for Malaconda. As said before, it's really the only thing we have that can threaten Dragon-types. If our concept is to not only be a good addition to sun-teams but to be a Type-Equalizer altogether, then Ice Fang at the very least should be allowed to marginally decrease the amount of Dragon-types that would love to frolic in rain. We risk Mixed Dragonite and most Garchomps otherwise giving both Malaconda and the rest of our sun-teams a lot of trouble if the option isn't at least there. Allow it.
Guys every single Pokemon has weaknesses, and just because Malaconda will be setup on by some Draagon-types doesn't mean it won't be a good addition to sun teams. Xatu is set-up bait for a bazillion of things that threaten sun teams, such as Lati@s, LumDDnite, SubSD Garchomp, SubSD Terrakion, and even Rock Polish Landorus. Does this make it bad for sun teams? Not at all, as its positive qualities can outshine its negatives. The same is true for many other mons as well. I don't get where we got the idea that a Pokemon should be able to prevent anything that threatens sun teams in order to be viable in sun teams. Once again, having Pokemon that can setup on Malaconda and threaten the whole sun team is a good thing and will prevent sun from becoming broken.

Gliscor: ice fang, U-turn, fire fang, several fighting moves,95attack, 2 weaknesses, 95 speed, OU tier.

Hydregion: ice fang, U-turn, several fire moves, superpower, 2 weaknesses, 105attack, 98 speed, OU tier.

Primeape: ice punch, U-turn, fire punch, a lot of fighting moves, 2 weaknesses, 105 attack, 95 speed, NU tier.
Gliscor is not a big trouble for sun teams as many of its members can OHKO it or seriously damage it, or even straight up counter it (HP Ice Forretress).

Hydreigon is a big problem and this is good, as it will be one of the few options that people will have left for dealing with sun teams.

Primeape neither gives sun teams troubles nor is OU viable.

I am still wondering why the supporters of Ice Fang don't want to consider other less harmful options. Dragon Tail prevents any dangerous threat from setting up but doesn't almost OHKO dragons and Landorus, meaning that they can still threaten sun teams later, which is GOOD. We can even give to the CAP Whirlwind / Roar / Encore and we will still have the same result. So why give it a move that does nothing that other moves can't do, but makes sun as a whole dangerously difficult to deal with? We want to balance the gap between sun and the other weathers not flip it in sun's favor...

EDIT: I just saw that Basileus added something in his post which makes whatever i said to him irrelevant as he claimed that those pokes are good for dealing with pokemon that sun has trouble against not with sun itself. Still Basileus's post is irrelevant as there are not any real connections with those Pokemon and Malaconda. Those Pokemon are not sun supporters they are just Pokemon that work well in sun teams (except for Primeape), and the only one of them that is uncounterable, Hydreigon, is an offensive Pokemon not a defensive one.
 
just as a note with coil many inaccurate moves become viable and as coil seems quite likely (what with being a snake) be careful of making this guy into a general tank, especially with the boost. moves like megahorn, gunk shot and powerwhip could become incredibly viable and a tank with innumerable chesto rests could be very dangerous. Just something to consider on gunk shot etc.
 
I am still wondering why the supporters of Ice Fang don't want to consider other less harmful options. Dragon Tail prevents any dangerous threat from setting up but doesn't almost OHKO dragons and Landorus, meaning that they can still threaten sun teams later, which is GOOD. We can even give to the CAP Whirlwind / Roar / Encore and we will still have the same result. So why give it a move that does nothing that other moves can't do, but makes sun as a whole dangerously difficult to deal with? We want to balance the gap between sun and the other weathers not flip it in sun's favor...
I don't know what your argument is here, you pretty much supported why we shouldn't use Dragon Tail. We can give it Whirlwind / Roar / Encore later and have the same result. Dragon Tail is also negative priority, but doesn't hit through subs. The main point of phazing is to force out the opponent, not damage them while doing it. Dragon Tail also doesn't hit what we want it to the same way. Ice Fang can be used to force out a very specific amount of Pokemon- i.e. Dragon/Flying and Ground/Flying pokes. Ice Fang makes them want to not switch into it without it being after their teammate has fainted. Dragon Tail lets them switch in and be fine because Dragon Tail could miss or just force it out to another Pokemon that could also deal with it.
Ice Fang also gives us much needed coverage to better deal with Sandstorm teams. Hits Ground/Flying pokes that are commonly seen on Sandstorm teams while having nice coverage with grass to eliminate Tyranitar. The coverage is somewhat redundant, it isn't giving it a combination like BoltBeam that allows it to hit almost everything. We want to hurt Dragon Types, and Lati@s are the only two that are weak to dark type. Everything else is neutral or resists it. Ice Fang gives us that coverage, but it isn't as accurate or powerful as Ice Punch. We aren't giving it Icicle Crash, we're giving it a slightly inaccurate, low-powered ice move.
 
Well the big problem is to choose if fire fang, ice fang and u-turn are acceptable... but i will try to speak about other moves...

Maybe Malaconda will only run grass/dark and 2 support moves, but some moves can help in both ways, speed is a pain for Mala and it´s ok thats why we don´t give him chlorophyl, but got some par stats can be great for Mala and for the team, so moves like body slam and spark can come to the table... Are they competitive? It can help to stop sun nemesis? Physical tanks have burn inducers (lava plume / scald), what the Special tanks have to help?.

Now some types like poison, flying and physic no one talk about them, so I suppose that they don´t worthy, or I´m mistake?

Other important stuff is that with that pathetic Special Attack, can we run a special move in competitive? Leaf Storm is the only one that maybe we can talk about, it can be some kind of Draco meteor for physical dragons. Or maybe solarbeam with that sun moments.

Maybe what I´m saying is stupid but why don´t give a try talk about this moves?.
 
Allow Ice Fang. I'm sorry. Malaconda needs an ice move. I'm glad he got Dragon Tail, so he won't be set up fodder for Dragonite and Salamence, but still. Malaconda didn't get Ice Shard, so he's basically useless against Landorus now, since Life Orb Landorus can just U-Turn away and OHKO Malaconda.
Malaconda's supposed to be a ground type counter. Please, don't make the same mistake with Gliscor.
Malaconda should be a fool proof Toxic Stall Gliscor counter. With Lum Berry, he's a status absorber and is immune to Toxic Stall and takes a pitance of damage from Earthquake. Lum Malaconda and TS Gliscor won't be able to do ANYTHING against each other unless Malaconda gets an ice move. Sure it could use Power Whip or Wood Hammer on Gliscor, but Power Whip's low accuracy in a long stall war and Wood Hammer's recoil will eventually make it lose against Gliscor everytime. And besides, Acrobatics Gliscor still easily beats Malaconda, so it's not like this is always a guaranteed win in a match up.

Allow U-Turn. Pivot moves are vital for Malaconda's success to do anything relevant for sun. He's a defensive PIVOT. You think Politoed is just gonna let you stay in and hit him with Power Whip? No. He needs a pivot move. Slow U-Turn is great for taking hits and then passing to sweepers and scouting for switches. Yes, Baton Pass will be an option too (and boy, oh boy, do I ever have plans for Baton Pass), but he should have the option to use U-Turn as well.
It also gives Malaconda an option to hit himself for super effective damage. I hate it when two of the same pokemon can't kill each other.

Disallow Water-type moves. There are several good reasons not to give Malaconda water type moves. Despite all our strides to prevent it, it will still be quite viable in rain. Giving him water moves only increases this rain temptation. We want Malconda to be checked by fire types, so giving him a water moves does not work towards his goals. Finally, water type moves might as we'll be useless in sun halving their damage anyway, and in sun is where Malaconda belongs. Giving him water moves adds little to sun, and hands a viable move to rain.

Allow all Poison-type moves. Because these are mostly flavor and only offer coverage on other grass types.
 

jas61292

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Well, we are getting near the end here, but I do have a few things to say. First off, I will jump in along with everyone else and say hell no to water. Not gonna take the time to go farther than that, but I don't think I need to. Everyone else here has done that already. Secondly, on Poison type moves, well, I really don't care. They hit just about nothing. Technically the few things they do hit are not things we necessarily want to hit, but the coverage is so bad and so useless I am tempted to say it doesn't matter at all. It doesn't really matter to me either way though, so I'll be happy with whatever other people want.

One last thing I would like to bring up here is something that has not yet been talked about. At the begining of the thread capefeather listed that special attacks would not be counted as competitive. While in general I think this is true, I would like to make an exception and ask that any Fire move stronger than Hidden Power be disallowed. Back in the stats stage, one of the main reasons behind the low SpA stats submited, including the winning stat, was to limit what Hidden Power fire can do to Scizor. Considering Fire Fang was disallowed for hitting certain Pokemon we do not want to hit, and many of these Pokemon (Scizor, Forretress, Skarmory, etc) are significantly weaker on the special side, allowing powerful fire coverage on the special side would be equally harmful as allowing Fire Fang. So in that light, I would like to suggest that any Special Fire move with greater than 70 Power be disallowed. The move Flame Burst at 70 itself should be fine, as no one in their right mind would use Hidden Power for anything else, so freeing it up is not a concern, but anything stronger could end up being problematic.

Anyways, other than that, I got nothing. I like how this discussion is going so far, and agree with cape that U-Turn and Ice Fang are definitely the moves of contention that need the most discussion. I personally am still not sure one way or the other on them, and am very interested in the discussion of them that is going on.
 
Allow Ice Fang
Malaconda obviously needs something to get past bulky Flying, Grass, and Dragon types. Especially ones with substitute. So far, Malaconda has no real way of dealing with bulky pokes with substitute like Gliscor and Tomahawk. "But Tomahawk is suppose to be on the threatenin..." i know that, but obviously this does not BEAT tomahawk, but it does however make it so Malaconda is not complete set up fodder to it. Same story goes for Sub Dragonite. like what capefeather said, "people should remember that carrying a move to cover a threat does not make the threat cease to be one". i also feel like that's true about Fire Fang as well. due to Scizor (who is by far one of the most threatening pokes vs Malaconda) being faster, and basically forces you to switch out as one of your teammates takes a CB U-Turn, or they set up a SD and attempt to sweep. Fire Fang does NOT make Scizor a non threat, nor does Fire Fang make it so that Malaconda can beat it 1v1. the only thing it DOES do is is make the other player think twice about trying to set up a Swords Dance on Scizor and go for a sweep, which is good, cuz it enforces prediction.

Also, for the people who give the reason for not having fire fang is because it's a grass type and doesn't make sense, Pokemon like Ludicolo and Jirachi have Fire Punch, so i feel like that's irrelevant and should be a reason to disallow the move. i also feel like people forget that Fire Fang and Ice Fang are 65 Base Power, which people should take note before saying it should be disallowed.


Disallow U-Turn
I have yet to see any reason to put U-turn on this pokemon, other than its a snake, and apparently people have the mindset that a pokemon is not good until it learns it. seriously, people saying that a Defensive Pivot needs U-turn obviously haven't played this game very long, or thinks Forretress with Voltswitch is the 2nd coming of Jesus.
A GOOD example of a Defensive Pivot is Swampert in D/P/Pt and even more so in Adv. the thing was THE BEST Defensive Pivot in the game and was the definition of the meta, forcing even the most physical of Pokemon like Metagross, Mence and T-Tar to at least have an option of running HP Grass. Same goes for Gen 4 with Infernape, Rotom-A and friends. and this is all without having U-turn, Voltswitch, or Batonpass.
i would aslo assume that Malaconda would learn Pursuit which already is huge as it can be sent in on Politoed and Trap it as it attempts to switch out.
252+ Atk Malaconda Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 153-180 (47.66 - 56.07%)
Guarenteed 2hko with any Hazard, and 80.86% chance to 2HKO without any. if one would opt to not run max attack and adamant (which i would assume u wouldn't run adamant, or even max attack for that matter) it would be a 3hko. this should definitely be enough to whittle down Politoed (Especially if this thing eventually gets Coil, but that's for another day), or at least make your opponent think twice about what move they would use on the switch, assuming they are Scarfed. U-turn also just in general makes Brain dead plays, where you remove skill and prediction and substitute it with U-turn. this kind of play shouldn't exist in a Meta-game where we want more skill involved.
 

ginganinja

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Allow Ice Fang. I'm sorry. Malaconda needs an ice move. I'm glad he got Dragon Tail, so he won't be set up fodder for Dragonite and Salamence, but still. Malaconda didn't get Ice Shard, so he's basically useless against Landorus now, since Life Orb Landorus can just U-Turn away and OHKO Malaconda.
Malaconda's supposed to be a ground type counter. Please, don't make the same mistake with Gliscor.
Malaconda should be a fool proof Toxic Stall Gliscor counter. With Lum Berry, he's a status absorber and is immune to Toxic Stall and takes a pitance of damage from Earthquake. Lum Malaconda and TS Gliscor won't be able to do ANYTHING against each other unless Malaconda gets an ice move. Sure it could use Power Whip or Wood Hammer on Gliscor, but Power Whip's low accuracy in a long stall war and Wood Hammer's recoil will eventually make it lose against Gliscor everytime. And besides, Acrobatics Gliscor still easily beats Malaconda, so it's not like this is always a guaranteed win in a match up.
Ok, so why the everloving fuck, do we need to beat Gliscor of all mons. It doesn't trouble sunlight in the slightest, its not a direct type we really want to target, its not even really a massive OU threat. Like im searching for a reason and all im getting is that maybe you got swept by a Gliscor or something. Help me out here pls :(

So far, Malaconda has no real way of dealing with bulky pokes with substitute like Gliscor and Tomahawk.
Don't bring up Tomahawk. CAP 5 (Malaconda) is for the OU METAGAME, something Tomahawk doesn't exist in. Therefore, its 100% worthless mentioning it.

im not even going to respond to Basileus until he either fixes that post or makes a better one since that logic is utterly, utterly terrible.
 
Guys every single Pokemon has weaknesses, and just because Malaconda will be setup on by some Draagon-types doesn't mean it won't be a good addition to sun teams. Xatu is set-up bait for a bazillion of things that threaten sun teams, such as Lati@s, LumDDnite, SubSD Garchomp, SubSD Terrakion, and even Rock Polish Landorus. Does this make it bad for sun teams? Not at all, as its positive qualities can outshine its negatives. The same is true for many other mons as well. I don't get where we got the idea that a Pokemon should be able to prevent anything that threatens sun teams in order to be viable in sun teams. Once again, having Pokemon that can setup on Malaconda and threaten the whole sun team is a good thing and will prevent sun from becoming broken.
First off, you say that like Malaconda would have no weaknesses without being set up by Dragons. Heatran, Scizor, Breloom, Toxicroak, and Skarmory skarmory just to name a FEW all fully counter Malaconda, and many of those are common rain threats. I haven't even named other checks like Tentacruel, Terrakion, and Volcarona, either. We have nothing to lose by giving Malaconda a chance at stopping rain Dragons considering how we already find ourselves walled or OHKO'd by a decent portion of OU as it is.

Second off, we're not trying to make a mon that's just viable in sun teams. We're trying to make a mon that makes sun teams viable. Clearly there is some sort of agreement sun is an underwhelming weather compared to rain and sandstorm if our concept of Type Equalizing has lead us to make a sun mon. If we were really one good Pokemon away from making sunlight itself broken, I really don't think we'd be even making Malaconda right now. Being a check to Dragons is not going to make Malaconda broken. Seriously. Stop insisting that a physically paper-thin mon with modest offenses and slow speed is going to be broken at all. The ridiculousness to that is infallible.

Lastly, why are you comparing Xatu to Malaconda when they fulfill entirely different roles? That's like what the other guy that you talked down did by comparing Primeape and Hydreigon to Malaconda.
 

ginganinja

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First off, you say that like Malaconda would have no weaknesses without being set up by Dragons. Heatran, Scizor, Breloom, Toxicroak, and Skarmory skarmory just to name a FEW all fully counter Malaconda, and many of those are common rain threats. I haven't even named other checks like Tentacruel, Terrakion, and Volcarona, either. We have nothing to lose by giving Malaconda a chance at stopping rain Dragons considering how we already find ourselves walled or OHKO'd by a decent portion of OU as it is.
Ok lets go through your list. If we give it Ice Fang, that strikes off 98% of all dragons so we can remove those, Breloom gets like 2KOed (even if its not a guarenteed 2KO IF does waaay 2 much for a safe switch-in) so its not something I recommend either, U-Turn beats Heatran since you have Duggy, Duggy beats Toxicroak, and Ninetales (or any fire type really) can handle Heatran and Skarmory just fine, while CAP 5 has the option of spinning away the hazards that Skarm sets up. Granted, CAP 5 is not running all those moves, but perhapes you can understand that giving it Ice Fang makes it harder to beat, when you have that 50/50 shot of it running Ice Fang and losing a mon for free. Worth noting that really only Toxicroak and maybe Breloom in your list I would class as a "rain threat" but w.e. Your checks are pretty average as well, as Tenta needs rain up (otherwise Lum laughs), Terrak gets boned by PW and is Dug bait, and Volcarona only encourages the use of a sun team, and yea, its also SR weak. Do we understand now that its not quite as simple as you think?

Second off, we're not trying to make a mon that's just viable in sun teams. We're trying to make a mon that makes sun teams viable.
Sun teams ARE viable, they are good teams. Heck, some people believe sun teams are broken as they are. The purpose of this CAP is to decrease rains dominance, this, in turn, removes a good check to sunlight (Rain vs Sun is often a skill matchup). Now suddenly, CAP 5 has the capacity to handle 2 common dragon that typically gave sunlight trouble, and now people want to give it Ice Fang so it can handle the rest, removing more checks to sunlight. Perhapes now you can understand the concern, as to how quickly we can go too far. Remember, your not 'really' wearing this thing down, its got 2 much recovery, possible status immunity etc etc, so ur best effort is straight up 1v1ing it, again ignoring that people want to also give it Encore / Dragon Tail / WW etc

Being a check to Dragons is not going to make Malaconda broken. Seriously.
Technically, Malaconda hard counters 2 dragons already, and can easily handle the others. For instance, it can take a CB Dragonites Fire Punch under sunlight (if im remembering my own calc's correctly) which is no small feat. When you factor in the easy possibility of Occa Berry being a semi decent option, suddenly those dragon pokemon cannot use those fire attacks to win anymore while you easily 2KO with Ice Fang. Do you understand the issues yet?

As stated for the 100th time, as it stands Malaconda already handles most of the ways to beat sun, giving it Ice Fang doesn't leave very much left at all, and that's what is worrying.
 
Keeping in mind the bigger picture, does Malaconda having Ice Fang impact popular types being used less?

Does having Ice Fang impact less popular types being used more?
 

alexwolf

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I don't know what your argument is here, you pretty much supported why we shouldn't use Dragon Tail. We can give it Whirlwind / Roar / Encore later and have the same result. Dragon Tail is also negative priority, but doesn't hit through subs. The main point of phazing is to force out the opponent, not damage them while doing it. Dragon Tail also doesn't hit what we want it to the same way. Ice Fang can be used to force out a very specific amount of Pokemon- i.e. Dragon/Flying and Ground/Flying pokes. Ice Fang makes them want to not switch into it without it being after their teammate has fainted. Dragon Tail lets them switch in and be fine because Dragon Tail could miss or just force it out to another Pokemon that could also deal with it.
Ice Fang also gives us much needed coverage to better deal with Sandstorm teams. Hits Ground/Flying pokes that are commonly seen on Sandstorm teams while having nice coverage with grass to eliminate Tyranitar. The coverage is somewhat redundant, it isn't giving it a combination like BoltBeam that allows it to hit almost everything. We want to hurt Dragon Types, and Lati@s are the only two that are weak to dark type. Everything else is neutral or resists it. Ice Fang gives us that coverage, but it isn't as accurate or powerful as Ice Punch. We aren't giving it Icicle Crash, we're giving it a slightly inaccurate, low-powered ice move.
Yeah we can do that but we don't know if those moves will be allowed as the attacking moves discussion is first. So i want D-Tail to be allowed just in case that the other non attacking moves aren't. The CAP doesn't need to deal with every threat in sandstorm teams. It is already dealing very good with Celebi, Lati@s, Rotom-W, and Starmie, all Pokemon very common in sand teams, and it can very easily spin, giving a great deal of support to sun teams. The CAP is already very useful against any type of team so i don't see the need of Ice Fang, especially from the moment that it's not only expanding our coverage a lot but also messes with some of our supposed counters (Breloom)
First off, you say that like Malaconda would have no weaknesses without being set up by Dragons. Heatran, Scizor, Breloom, Toxicroak, and Skarmory skarmory just to name a FEW all fully counter Malaconda, and many of those are common rain threats. I haven't even named other checks like Tentacruel, Terrakion, and Volcarona, either. We have nothing to lose by giving Malaconda a chance at stopping rain Dragons considering how we already find ourselves walled or OHKO'd by a decent portion of OU as it is.
Ok let me rephrase then. Every defensive Pokemon has a few set-up Pokemon that can setup on it with little or zero risks. There are already very few Pokemon that can setup on Malaconda risk free as of now, and you want to give it ice coverage to make those Pokemon even less. Why? Malaconda already has all the tools it needs to not lose momentum for sun teams (U-turn) to deal with the things we want it to (its STABs) and to even not allow some dangerous Pokemon to setup if the need arises (Dragon-Tail).

Second off, we're not trying to make a mon that's just viable in sun teams. We're trying to make a mon that makes sun teams viable. Clearly there is some sort of agreement sun is an underwhelming weather compared to rain and sandstorm if our concept of Type Equalizing has lead us to make a sun mon. If we were really one good Pokemon away from making sunlight itself broken, I really don't think we'd be even making Malaconda right now. Being a check to Dragons is not going to make Malaconda broken. Seriously. Stop insisting that a physically paper-thin mon with modest offenses and slow speed is going to be broken at all. The ridiculousness to that is infallible.
First sun teams are already viable. Second, the CAP has already plenty of qualities that improve sun teams, including countering probably the biggest threat to sun teams, SubCMLatias, as well as handling other serious problems of sun teams (Latios, strong water-types, hazards) and this is good enough. While we are trying to make sun teams better, we still want to have seriously dangerous threats/strategies to sun teams. As of now physical Dragon-types, RP Landorus, and Lucario (which struggles to setup but once it does it is deadly) are maybe the only real ways to seriously threaten sun teams with Malaconda on them. So why make those few answers even fewer by not allowing Dragonite, Salamence, and Landorus to switch in relatively easy (note that all those Pokemon are already 2HKOed by Malaconda's STABs, so it's not as if Malaconda gives them risk free switch-ins).

Lastly, why are you comparing Xatu to Malaconda when they fulfill entirely different roles? That's like what the other guy that you talked down did by comparing Primeape and Hydreigon to Malaconda.
I am comparing a certain aspect of them and not the entire Pokemon. Someone said that in order for Malaconda to be used on sun teams it must have a way to avoid being set-up on by Pokemon that threaten sun teams. And i showed to him that a Pokemon can be used on sun teams and help them even if it gets set-up on by dangerous Pokemon for sun teams as long as its positives outshine its negatives. So what i did is compare two Pokemon which are(or will be) used on sun teams even though they can be set-up on by dangerous Pokemon for sun teams because their positive traits are more important than their negative.
 
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