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CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Korski, Aug 17, 2013.

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  1. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Mar 29, 2009
    Alright everyone, time for the Primary Ability Discussion! Our Ability Leader is Pwnemon, so be sure to pay close attention to his posts and feedback, and be sure to direct your arguments towards him and his questions. At the conclusion of this thread, he will prepare the final slate of options that will be polled for CAP6's primary ability.

    We recently updated our rules about abilities; you can read about them here. In summary:
    • Custom abilities are banned
    • There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion
    • Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning.
    The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

    Air Lock
    Bad Dreams
    Color Change
    Sand Veil
    Shadow Tag
    Slow Start
    Snow Cloak
    Victory Star
    Wonder Guard
    Zen Mode​

    Be careful not to discuss any of these abilities. If you want to learn why they're banned from discussion, you can check out the Policy Review thread that created this list.


    CAP6 so far:

    Typing: Steel / Flying


    This thread will open up for discussion as soon as Pwnemon posts his initial thoughts and questions for us to discuss.
  2. Stratos

    Stratos Banned deucer.

    Aug 26, 2010
    So, Abilities discussion. Our threats discussion concluded very...inconclusively. As we move along, then, we are forced to decide the following two questions: First, how and on what we set up Belly Drum, and second, how and by what CAP6 is beaten once it has set up.

    That being said, however, it's not as if we have no clues whatsoever what the answers to those two questions are. The first, obviously, is our typing. Steel/Flying carries many important resistances to types often used by defensive Pokemon—among them Ground, Steel, and Grass. Unfortunately, however, Flying/Steel carries crucial neutralities to common coverage types, such as Fighting, Water, Ice, and Rock, as well as weaknesses to Fire and Electric. Since almost every offensive Pokemon can exploit at least one of these chinks in CAP6's armor, its typing heavily leans toward it setting up almost exclusively on defensive Pokemon.

    However, that still leaves question 2 unanswered: what do we want to beat or be beaten by once we've set up? Rather than name specific Pokemon, I'll simply propose the dichotomy that was discussed in the Threats Discussion: is it better to be walled or revenge killed? DetroitLolcat summarized one side of the argument when he said that, considering we picked a typing that allows CAP6 setup opportunities on mostly defensive Pokemon, we should go balls to the wall and tear through defensive teams, while remaining susceptible to revenge kills. Ginganinja countered with the other side of the coin: while defensive checks to cap6 are not found on every team (and for those who do carry them, they would be easier to wear down, allowing for a sweep), basically every team carries a revenge killer, and revenge killers are incredibly slippery, so a Pokemon that is almost completely destroyes by common revenge killers (BD users can't just switch out and back in) is never going to pull its own weight.

    There are numerous other factors that weigh into the above decision: the fact that our STABs are only really walled by defensive Pokemon; the fact that being able to set up on, but be countered by different Pokemon that generally pull from the same bag of tricks is a fine line to walk (for example, if we make ourselves impervious to whirlwind Hippo, how can Whirlwind Skarm beat us?); the fact that we can finagle our way into being countered by certain revenge killers but not others; the question of how many checks a Pokemon with such difficult setup needs... I'd love to discuss the complex interactions between these variables in this post, but it's high time I moved on into abilities already.

    Even though I said in the second paragraph that we were cut out to set up on defensemons, our work is not complete in this category. Almost every Pokemon whose stabs we wall can screw us in another way if we try to set up on them, be it Jirachi's Body Slam, Hippowdon's Whirlwind, Ferrothorn's Leech Seed, Celebi's Perish Song, or Gliscor's Taunt. Apart from scouted Choice locks, CAP6's setup opportunities at the moment are virtually nil. Except for the move Taunt, Primary Ability is the only thing that can move more than one of these Pokemon into the "setup bait" category (and Taunt has some obvious issues of its own).

    At the same time, Ability is one of the only ways to address the problem of revenge killing. The movepool can also lessen our revenge weakness, but if we pick an ability that allows us to plow through defense, and a movepool for plowing through offense, we may risk becoming too strong. Either way, I must emphasize that there is no kicking the can down the road: whichever path we take with Ability will set the tone for CAP6's ability to threaten or be threatened by certain Pokemon.

    Of course, there is always a Door #3 in any good puzzle that's already starting to resemble something from National Treasure (insert nic cage faces everywhere), and we don't have to pick an ability that specifically caters to offense or defense. While this is the question at the forefront of my mind, feel free to thumb through abilities that take a more creative approach to answering it.

    That said, our CAP needs a lot of breathing room in the OU metagame, and I want to focus on abilities which provide this. And with possibly the most inconclusive OP in the history of CAP, let's kick off discussion!
  3. jynx KB

    jynx KB

    May 25, 2010
    Personally if we're giving opportunities to set up as much as possible (we discussed a LOT of checks last thread, and with a 50% loss in HP with a setup, it needs a bit of help still) we're going to need to control status.

    All statuses are detrimental to CAP 6's setup, more so than to most normal Pokemon. Burn cuts the attack we're boosting for and does damage to already precious hp making it the most dangerous. Sleep and freeze are universal, but confusion is also a massive concern due to lost health. Poison would be an issue, but it's negligible due to sheer typing.

    Throwing flavor out the window for suggestions, I suggest our primary ability remedy this. Shed Skin or Water Veil, or something like that.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  4. Scorpio


    Oct 23, 2010
    At the risk of being too OP, I would like to give Heatproof a try, since it not only neutralizes our Fire weakness, but also reduces the damage from burns.

    An ability I feel could potentially be more OP, on the other hand, is Volt Absorb. Not only does it drastically reduce the number of checks and counters CAP6 has, but it can heal us back up for another go. Unless, of course, we determine that that's what we want to have happen.
  5. vyomov


    Apr 7, 2013
    I'd like to discuss a couple of abilities that might make things better for CAP 6
    Section 1: Abilities that might be OP
    a) Magic Guard:
    Why is it good: Because it ensures CAP 6 isn't taking hazard damage or status damage, allowing us to get far more set-up opportunities.
    Why is it bad: Firstly, this might encourage Magic Guard + Life Orb sets that attack right off the bat, which is against our concept. Secondly, this also removes a lot of the checks to CAP 6 and might make it broken. Also, it doesn't make too much sense flavor-wise since every current Magic Guard user is Psychic type or Normal type.

    b) Speed Boost:
    Why is it good: Because it ensures CAP 6 isn't as susceptible to revenge-killing, as it can protect after the Belly Drum and at +2 potentially outspeed most scarfers
    Why is it bad: Baton Pass. I really don't like the possibility of CAP 6 baton passing the Belly Drum boosts and Speed boosts to something like Dragonite, which would pretty much end things.

    Section 2: Abilities that aren't OP
    a) Mold Breaker:
    Mold Breaker is a pretty decent ability for CAP 6 because it negates two otherwise hard counters to it: Dragonite and Quagsire. Quagsire can easily wall CAP 6 to no end and makes the strategy pretty useless, so breaking past Unaware or Multiscale in the case of Dragonite ensures our counters are limited to revenge killers.

    b) Motor Drive:
    Personal favorite, Motor Drive allows CAP 6 to fix issues with Revenge killers without making it too OP(which speed Boost might). It also limits CAP 6's weaknesses to one(Fire, which is negated by rain support or a partner like Chandelure who can "lure" in fire-types and then take them out thus allowing CAP 6 to come in later and set up). At the same time, it's not too broken as it's situational since the opponent will be more wary with spamming Electric-type moves post Team Preview.

    c) Static:
    Most revenge-killers can use physical moves to revenge-kill CAP 6. This makes them think twice, as an untimely paralysis can easily cost the game. In addition, resisted moves on CAP 6 while it Belly Drums can paralyze the opponent, allowing CAP 6 to outspeed and sweep.

    d) Thick Fat:
    Firstly, makes sense with Belly Drum as CAP 6 has GOT to be fat. Secondly, makes sense as it removes Fire-type weakness as well as introduces another key resist to a form of priority, thus allowing CAP 6 to set-up more easily.

    e) Unburden: This is a nice way of ensuring CAP 6 outspeeds, as it can either use a Sitrus Berry to heal up and then outspeed or use Flying Gem+Acrobatics+Belly Drum set to devastate incoming switches. It also ensures that fighting-type revenge killers think twice before switching in.

    f) Rattled: Another easy way of getting a speed boost, Rattled ensures CAP 6 can easily set up in the face of Bug, Dark and Ghost types and with the speed boost makes revenge-killing much tougher.

    Hopefully haven't said anything too controversial, as I'm quite new to the process :)
    SotheBlacKnight likes this.
  6. Torkoals


    Oct 21, 2011
    (I didn't mean too reply to that earlier quote, but this one ^^^)
    I agree that status needs to be controlled, as a burn or toxic just as Belly Drum is used puts this CAP at 40-30% in two turns. Guts has no use after a belly drum, so I'm throwing that out. Natural Cure would require switching out, and loosing the +6 from drumming, so that's not an option either. Magic bounce would be effective, but most probably too effective, so avoiding the risk of being OP, i'm throwing that out too. Magic Guard would work to keep incoming effects off, and that's possible, as leech seed could hurt this CAP, and also handle life orb damage. However if this CAP gets a means of recovery, I feel that too is OP, as it won't even need to heal off life orb damage. As such, i too agree with Shed Skin as a possible ability. However, status is not the only problem this Cap would face. An incoming Skarmory could easily whirlwind it after Belly Drum, causing it too lose half it's health for nothing. Therefore, Suction Cups could be a viable ability, although flavor wise it is a bit off.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  7. loco1234


    Jun 1, 2012
    Our CAP's all about using an underused move, Belly Drum, and the way I see it Belly Drum goes hand-in-hand with an underused ABILITY as well. I'm talking about Gluttony here, which as far as I know is used successfully by not a whole lot. Belly Drum Linoone is about all that comes to mind, and if you know how that works you know what I'm seeing here. Belly Drum cuts our HP by half of full. So we only get one shot at it, bar Healing Wish/Lunar Dance/Wish/Sitrus Berry, etc. But Speed is one of the most important things here unless we opt for a Priority focus. Gluttony means all berries eaten are eaten at half HP instead of 25%. Belly Drum cuts us perfectly to that half HP, and outside of Linoone in NU there isn't much that actually uses Gluttony. Every user bar 1 (Snorlax) is NU or LC and Snorlax never uses it anyway.

    The way I envision Movemon working with Gluttony is: Belly Drum up like normal, then at 50% you eat your Berry. Personally, I think you'd get the most mileage out of Salac or Sitrus, Salac for aiding the sweep and Sitrus for allowing a possible second Belly Drum if needed, for example if you get predicted and phazed or if something's got a Red Card (which actually may see a rise in usage with Movemon in OU, I think, since even though it's a one-off item bar heal support Movemon's a one-off sweeper). I'd take the slightly-riskier Salac Berry myself though. So now you have +6 Atk, which is terrifying in its own right, AND you've got +1 Spe.

    Alternatively, the aforementioned Unburden is an interesting option as it encourages a SubBelly set with a Berry (Sitrus, possibly, or, hell, even Salac again) and then gives you a +2 Spe boost, but it relies on you getting the Sub off first to work effectively. Or on prior hazard damage which would have to be 2 Rocks switches, which we don't want to be taking. You could also use a Gem with Unburden, which frees up a moveslot that would otherwise be allotted to Sub.
  8. Rafikichu


    Jul 22, 2013
    I think that the absolute most important thing for CAP 6 is getting opportunities to Belly Drum. It's ability should help it do that as much as possible. That seems more important to me than abilities that help it after it has set up and remove some its post-drum checks and counters. It will always have some counters, so we can't remove them all. The focus should be making a consistent Belly Drummer who can be utilized in most battles, not one that either gets a 6 Pokemon sweep or does nothing in a game. We can do this by giving it abilities that let it set up as much as it can, but still leave it "counterable" by certain Pokemon. In other words, I want to give it an ability that lets it be a better Belly Drummer, not let it "beat Magnezone," "beat Quagsire," or "Beat Skarmory" This why I would like to support type-immunity abilities.

    I like Volt Absorb and Motor Drive because they cover its Electric weakness and give an immunity to a common attacking type. Restoring health or boosting speed are also good ways to help a belly-drummer. I would recommend these over Lightningrod.

    I like Flash Fire covers the Pokemon's fire weakness and gives it an immunity to another common attacking type.

    I recommend avoiding Water Absorb, Dry Skin, and Storm Drain. They give it an immunity to a very common attacking type, but I feel that these abilities might lead CAP 6 to want to play a defensive, non-Belly Drumming role.

    Sap Sipper doesn't do much but defend from spore or leech seed since it 4x resists grass anyway and doesn't need an attack boost.

    Also, Levitate lol.
    Korski likes this.
  9. taziathegreat


    Feb 5, 2007

    It has advantages over defensive pokemon by preventing most phasing and status attempts but brings nothing to counter offensive threats
  10. Scrake


    Jul 8, 2013
    Some abilities that might not have been mentioned that have some potential:

    Aids in setup by allowing us to tank weaker Fire and Electric attacks like Volt Switch and Lava Plume.

    Allows setup on more offensive (Physical) Pokemon with attacks our CAP can tank such as Outrage or unstabbed coverage moves (-1 Superpower, Stone Edge).

    Magnet Pull
    Would allow very easy setup on the likes of Ferrothorn (presuming we can stop T-Wave or Leech Seed), Forretress lacking Volt Switch, and Jirachi without Fire Punch/a Body Slam Paralysis.

    Potentially allows a secondary Belly Drum setup if CAP6 is forced out during its first attempt.

    Rock Head
    Since most people shy away from using Brave Bird due to the recoil, this ability would make Brave Bird a viable option.

    Blocks Roar, allowing setup on Skarmory and Hippowdon (for example).

    I'd also like to throw support behind Unburden and Motor Drive since they help the possible speed problem of CAP6 while not being too powerful like Speed Boost, or too underwelming like Broken Armor. Motor Drive also takes care of the Electric weakness, which is awesome.
    dwarfstar likes this.
  11. jynx KB

    jynx KB

    May 25, 2010
    I don't like the idea of immunities. Typing is already stellar, and we chose the types and resistances we have for a reason, to keep checks available. Keep in mind we already are boasting 2 immunities, one of which is very common.

    I'd say that the abilities should either be anti-status (as previously mentioned) and/or anti-Phasing. Suction Cups is actually a pretty good idea. These don't compete with each other and allow the setup role to be accomplished more easily.

    If we allowed flavor to enter the discussion Soundproof also makes plenty of sense.
  12. ginganinja

    ginganinja It's all coming back to me now
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 13, 2009
    O.k, the problem with Unburden, is that it makes revenging this CAP nearly impossible. There are a number of issues with Unburden which im going to lay out.

    Firstly, for those of you that don't know, Unburden is +2 speed, thus meaning its bigger than a scarf boost. This means that Timid Heatran, if it got Unburden, could outrun Scarf Latios (the fastest OU scarfer in the tier) and has a base speed of 77. The trouble is, CAP 6 NEEDS to be revenged, if it cannot be revenged, then it belly drums, gets to +6 +2 (TY Unburden) in ONE turn, and destroys everything. To put this into perspective, this is technically worse (in terms of how healthy the ability is) than Speed Boost, which can only get you to +6 +1 after a Belly Drum (and you don't have the moveslots for Protect). TO combat this, you can drop your speed, to something like base 70 or so, which I guess balances yourself since you can "pick" what outspeeds you and what not, although this gets skewed by +Atk natures vs +Spe, as well as when you get to mid level OU scarfers, which all hover around the same speeds such as 91-102 (Terrakion and Keldeo I would class as high level OU Scarfers). Or, you can drop your base speed so low, that you don't outrun revenge killers.....except what's the point then of using Unburden.

    Basically what I am say is, Unburden is either 2 good, in that we outrun nearly everything, or we nerf our base speed so hard we outrun bugger all, in which case there is no point in using the ability. Its also exceptionally hard to balance due to the cluster of OU scarfers with very close speeds (in that you either beat "all of them" or none of them, and running the right nature can destroy what revenges it. Unburden is also exceptionally easy to activate, only requiring Sitrus or Flying Gem to activate (etc). People already mentioned wanting to avoid giving this cap speed boosting moves, so why are so many people pushing for an ability that basically gives CAP a free Rock Polish / Agility the moment it uses Belly Drum?

    I also don't like Magic Bounce (which could potentially let us beat SDef Heatran, as well as Skarm (which I wouldn't care about but Cape wanted this CAP to be checked by).

    I also dislike Magic Guard as it basically gives CAP Belly Drum + a 30% free boost on all of its attacks, thus allowing it to blast through resists (Id be suprised if Offensive Heatran enjoys an Adamant LO +6 Drill Peck) (let alone a +6 LO neutral coverage move which is possible) without worry.

    I don't see why people are pushing for shit like Motor Drive or (specially) Flash Fire. People: our TL said we wanted our CAP to be threatened by Heatran, so please tell me how the fuck being immune to its STABs counts as being threatened by Heatran, specially considering CAP is currently also immune to Earth Power.

    Can we just give it a general situational ability or something for once, instead of giving it some redic OP ability that just makes it almost impossible to handle?
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
    jas61292, Agile Turtle and Unitas like this.
  13. Theorymon

    Theorymon Let's a do the truffle shuffle!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 14, 2009
    So like some other people have mentioned, I think the best way to go about a primary ability is to ensure that CAP 6 actually has a decent chance of setting up Belly Drum on some more offensive threats, since I think currently, that is our "biggest problem". Here are a few abilities I'm thinking of.

    Motor Drive and Volt Absorb: These two have been mentioned a lot on IRC. They let you set up on stuff like Magnezone and Jolteon (though Jolteon isn't THAT relevant), and switch into Thundurus-T Thunders. While Volt Absob is nice for healing, I'm most interested in Motor Drive at the moment. Luring in Electric moves, and then getting a Speed boost, could be great news for this CAP taking on revenge killers. However, admittedly, if Electivire in gen 4 has shown us anything, its that switching into electric moves for Motor Drive can be a bit predictable! Still though, among the immunity abilities, this might be my favorite.

    Water Absorb: Similar deal to Volt Absorb, only you can set up on some REALLY prominent Pokémon like Politoed, and maybe Keldeo depending on the bulk.

    Regenerator: This is more of a long term approach: the idea here is to keep the Pokémon in high enough health to use Belly Drum a lot. And with a typing like Steel / Flying, you will be restoring health a lot! My main concern though, is that this doesn't really help against the revenge killer problem.
    dwarfstar and Korski like this.
  14. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Mar 29, 2009
    The way I see it, this CAP is going to be running into problems in a few major areas: Status (paralysis and burn), Speed (fastmons + Scarfers threaten to revenge any +0 CAP after a Belly Drum), and setup opportunity (Belly Drum sort of kills the idea of tanking hits during setup). There are many viable abilities to choose from that can handle any one of these problems at a time, but as far as I can tell, there is only one that helps with all three at once, and that is Motor Drive. I don't mean to say Motor Drive completely eliminates these problems, but it does cover them each about halfway, which imo is better than covering just one of the three all the way (we can do that in secondary ability if we want).

    Regarding status, Motor Drive has the strategic advantage of turning a move that would otherwise completely end CAP's chances of a sweep (Thunder Wave) into a move that would actually enhance its sweeping ability. This would shrink the list of reasonable opponents (e.g. not Dunsparce) who can paralyze CAP down to just the 35% of Jirachi that run Body Slam, which is going to ease a lot of stress in this area.

    Motor Drive also helps with the speed issue. If we can manage to give CAP a Speed stat over base 70, +1 CAP will be able outrun the entire unboosted tier and then, of course, any naturally slower Choice Scarf Pokemon like Magnezone and Politoed looking to revenge KO. As I said in the threats discussion, I'd rather not rely on the +1 Spe or else be easily outpaced, but this ability still opens the door for a big reward for strategic switchers, situationally patching up holes with particular Scarfers and naturally fast threats like Jolteon.

    This ability is actually probably strongest when considering the setup opportunities it affords. An Electric immunity completely neuters Blissey's, Ferrothorn's, and Forretress's best options against the CAP, turning them into reliable setup bait, along with Rain Jirachi, Celebi that lack HP-Fire (currently 84% of Celebi), and any Choice Pokemon running Electric attacks (Magnezone, Thundurus-T, Lati@s, Rotom-W, Jolteon) with a little bit of prediction or baiting. If you are one of those people wondering what in the world this CAP is supposed to set up on besides Choiced Ground-type moves, here's a pretty solid start.

    Now, a lesser point in favor of Motor Drive is that it grants another immunity to switch in on that coincidentally would be a type weakness otherwise, limiting CAP's weaknesses down to Fire alone, which can then in turn be diminished by Rain. Pwnemon put it succinctly when he said CAP needs more breathing room in the metagame, and I think this ability accomplishes that very well.

    In a perfect world, we'll have a secondary ability that is roughly equal to Motor Drive in terms of viability so that it's not immediately clear which ability the CAP is running. This would stoke some added paranoia in the opponent when he/she is considering clicking the Thunder Wave or Volt Switch buttons, instead of just abandoning the use of those moves altogether.
    Agile Turtle likes this.
  15. EJ190


    Mar 13, 2013
    Has anyone given a thought to WONDER SKIN? For those who don't know what it does, it basically halves the accuracy of status moves by 50% when used against this mon.
    Suddenly Twave, roar, taunt, whirlwind, SPORE, all have have 50% accuracy, WOW has a laughable 38% acc. This is a defensive ability that aids in setting-up without being too defensive. Just my 2cents.
    dwarfstar likes this.
  16. jynx KB

    jynx KB

    May 25, 2010
    Korski, that's a brilliant argument, and it even works flavor wise. The additional immunity does annoy me, but STAB electrics aren't all that common among the tip-top of OU.

    I am wary of the increased utility in rain, but in it's defense, it also does become a decent rain counter. Motor Drive is a solid option, and should probably be slated, but there are some minuses that need to be weighed against the pluses.

    I like the idea of wonder skin too.
  17. Full_Korbe


    Jan 1, 2010
    There is one big problem with this Pokemon : it's going to kill itself if it uses Brave Bird, and well, there is no other alternatives than the crappy Drill Peck (or Acrobatics but it kinda limits our item options).
    That's why I suggest Rock Head to nullify the huge recoil. It doesn't do much but without it, we will HAVE TO use Acrobatics. It's not bad by any means, but it's quite constricting.

    The other possibility to go around this problem is Adaptability. Drill Peck will have roughly the same power than Brave Bird but most importantly, it boosts Bullet Punch to ES-level of power. With 80 BS, 252 EV and a Jolly nature : The main perk is an OHKO all Lati@s sets without previous damages. Jolteon takes no less than 70% and Keldeo is 2KO (which doesn't mean much but yeah).

    At last, because we may use Acrobatics, we can also use Unburden to boost our speed. We won't try to set-up more than once, so let's use this chance at his fullest.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  18. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Jun 11, 2011
    I mostly agree with Korski's reasoning for Motor Drive. Many other abilities are interesting somehow, but Motor Drive does at least something to fix every problem CAP6 may encounter while not being a complete solution for it. However, I think that such an ability is kinda tricky to handle when we will define stats: a pokemon with an awesome defensive typing and only one weakness (which can be shut down with Rain support) looks awesome as a defensive mon that just doesn't care about Belly Drum, especially since we will need to give it at least some bulk to not be revenged by a resisted ESpeed or whatever weak priority move they'll throw at us.

    Regarding ginganinja's post, I completely agree on why we shouldn't give CAP6 Unburden; however, could you explain the quoted paragraph a bit more?

    I agree that Flash Fire is an unreasonable option (it removes Heatran from the check list), but an Electric immunity doesn't seem to hurt our "checks" too much (Rotom-W can still WoW us or Hydro Pump, which will either ruin our sweep or put us in the KO range of a random neutral priority move). Are you worried about the no-weaknesses-under-Rain issue? Or there's something I lost in your reasoning? Thanks!
  19. vyomov


    Apr 7, 2013
    While I don't want to poll jump with this, base 70 is perfect for our purposes with Unburden:
    With a Jolly nature and full investment, a base 70 speed hits 262 without the boost and 524 with the boost
    Timid Scarf Latios hits 525, which is JUST higher than +2 base 70
    However, with base 70, CAP 6 would outspeed everything else

    While I'm NOT recommending stats here, my point is that it is perfectly possible for us to get a speed just in between base 108 scarfers and base 110+scarfers so no, we can give Unburden with JUST the right speed especially since, by the threat list, only 110+ are supposed to revenge us.

    Looking at the threats list:
    Motor Drive really allows us to beat none of these. Yes, with rain support it means there are no "weaknesses" but since CAP 6 is neutral to water, rain can quickly backfire on CAP 6 considering how weak it is to priority.
    dwarfstar likes this.
  20. awsmminer3


    Jun 14, 2013
    Type-immunity abilities seem to be very much supported here, but I would like to see the less-suggested Gluttony and/or Unburden for CAP6. Gluttony leads into BellySalac, as has been mentioned, which makes it less revengable without the need for making it so in Base Stats. Unburden takes an entirely separate view, with a Flying Gem Acrobatics after the Belly Drum eliminating most any Pokemon while making your speed +2. More risk, but more reward. All in all, they are both amazing abilities for our concept that still force us to Drum (assuming proper Base Stats) while making us less revengable, eliminating some of Belly Drum's risks (Hey, Aurumoth should've gotten this move) while keeping most of the rewards.
  21. ginganinja

    ginganinja It's all coming back to me now
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    Apr 13, 2009
    I mentioned Motor Drive as a general ability that gives immunities that I dislike. Its not a favourite of mine simply because it shuts down like, Magnezone which would have been a hard counter, and I still consider it making it harder for Rotom-W to check. I guess its just me, but if I was looking for a counter to something like CAP 6 on my team, I wouldn't pick something like Rotom-W which loses if its choiced, as well as relying on shit moves like WoW or Hydro Miss to take it down. Would rather use Heatran which wouldn't screw me over xD. I just had coinflip counters and with Motor Drive, Rotom-W becomes exactly that. The statement was more focussed on Flash Fire anyway.

    As I understood it, threat list just contained examples, not a firm rule. For instance, every single revenge killer listed, is either sub par (IMO), or massively pursuit weak, thus making Tyranitar / Scizor + CAP 6 p much unbeatable. Like, its got 4 revenge killers total, 3 of them (Gengar and Latios), cannot run HP Fire (else they tie) and are actually fairly weak.

    Against a CAP 5 with 80 HP and 80 Def and 0 HP investment, none of them win, simply because Belly Drum + Sitrus means CAP 6 survives anything they can dish out. Latios maxes out at 53% (with DM), Gengar max out at 61%, and Starmie has the best luck, maxing out at 81% with Thunderbolt. Considering that with Sitrus, your HP stands at exactly 75%, that is pretty appalling damage output, especially considering that CAP could very easily chuck in some spare EVs into HP to take a Thunderbolt better, and remove your chances at OHKOing. Like, 108 HP evs is p high to fully survive, but 54 EVs or so takes your KO chance to 50%, basically a coinflip chance to revenge kill the pokemon WHICH IS THE ONLY REASON YOUR USING THIS SCARFER! (I wouldn't run max speed if latios still outspeeds, id run enough to hit 109 and put the rest of the EVs in bulk / Adamant nature (if that still outruns).

    Like, the reason those scarfers are not used (with the possible exception of latios), is because they don't win against other sweepers, or have crippling flaws. All of the scarfers on that list are Pursuit weak (like seriously.....) thus preventing them from revenging anything else on a sand team, simply because if they revenge something, then they get trapped, and CAP 6 no longer as a revenge killer to fear. Compare this to the good scarfers like Jirachi, Keldeo, Terrakion, which you can Pursuit if you want.... except to do bullshit damage tho. For this reason, im basically ignoring the revenge killers listed, because I don't believe any of them really work (you have 4 Scarfers listed at "revenge killing CAP 6 and yet 3 of the miss out on a OHKO (After a fucking Belly Drum) vs 80/80 with zero investment....). I don't think im "aiming high" with defensive stats, to me, 80/80 is pretty standard bulk (Its Thundurus-T basically on the special side which all those Scarfers hit from) and losing to them with uninvested average bulk is just ugh....

    So basically, with Unburden + uninvested average bulk, you beat 3/4 of the scarfers that are supposed to revenge you, and outrun every other scarfer in the game (thats used). Do you perhaps understand why I am at the very least concerned at how strong unburden makes us?
    Agile Turtle likes this.
  22. JacobM


    Aug 2, 2013
    Although perhaps a little niche, we may wish to consider Serene Grace. Sound crazy? Serene Grace would give us an alternative to immediately drumming. On the physical side, the only percentage based moves we would really benefit from are paralysis and flinch moves, but CAP 6 could benefit from both.

    For instance, one weakness of CAP 6 is that with prediction, a revenge killer doesn't have to wait for "revenge" to come in, because it can come in on the set up turn. But if CAP 6 runs, for instance, Body Slam, with prediction, there's a 60% chance to neuter that threat.

    Also, a move like Iron Head would provide reliable STAB and give us one way of possibly dealing with Sturdy, or Sash Alakazam.

    When I was first considering SG, I was hoping it would allow us to use lots of moves that aren't typically used, but after briefly perusing the moves list, these are really the ones that would assist us. At the moment, I don't think this is the best ability suggested, but if it's bounced around there may be some greater potential for it that I am not seeing.
  23. erisia

    erisia nyoen wnt an popsicel
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor

    Nov 29, 2011
    Initially going into this concept, I thought that Regenerator was an excellent ability for the concept, as it provides CAP6 with more defensive versatility, and lets it use Belly Drum as a repeated wallbreaking move as opposed to a one-off all-or-nothing gesture. I still think that this is a great advantage, but Regenerator doesn't actually help CAP6 set up the initial sweep, and since there are a lot of factors that could prevent a successful setup in the first place (status, being outsped, etc), I think we might be better off addressing these aspects with an ability.

    Motor Drive helps us out in a lot of ways, as previously stated. Firstly, it allows CAP6 to switch into a greater variety of attacks, giving it more switch in opportunities and preventing Volt Switch users from completely stealing our momentum. Secondly, it makes CAP6 much less susceptible to Thunder Wave stopping its sweep, which gives it many more setup opportunities against defensive Pokémon like Ferrothorn. Thirdly, using Motor Drive is a great way of forcing the opponent out, due to the previous two points. Finally, if pulled off successfully, the Speed boost provided will be invaluable in aiding its sweep, potentially being a situational solution against Scarfers depending on the Base Speed we choose. This can be controlled during the stats stage, to prevent us from being able to overwhelm our offensive checks too easily. I'm heavily in favor of this now, although I hope that Motor Drive doesn't become so predictable as to nullify its advantages. Volt Absorb is pretty good as well by this logic, swapping the chance to outspeed offensive checks for more defensive versatility; it doesn't have as much potential to make CAP6 overwhelmingly strong, which is something.

    Magnezone not being able to counter CAP6 as well is a bit lame, although depending on our stat choices, Hidden Power Fire may well be sufficient at preventing CAP6 from setting up and becoming a threat, potentially even in Rain.

    There is also the issue of Electric-immune CAP6 being too defensively good, effectively having no weaknesses in Rain, but this can be balanced easily in the stat / movepool stages. If it doesn't have a good support movepool, people will most likely use Skarmory instead unless we give it silly stats. We aren't obliged to give it instant recovery in Roost either, right?

    I was considering other abilities like Speed Boost and Flash Fire to support, but these honestly seem to have more disadvantages than the Electric-immunity abilities (potentially being impossible to revenge kill / beating Heatran, a designated check respectively) and although the Burn immunity of the latter is useful, Thunder Wave is more common than Will-O-Wisp, and thus the electric-immunity abilities will provide more switch-in opportunities against defensive Pokémon overall. Unless I see some really good arguments, my eggs are currently in the Motor Drive / Volt Absorb basket.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  24. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight RIP DryPass Vaporeon
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    CAP Head Mod

    May 27, 2005
    It is surprising to me that Quick Feet has not yet come up.

    Quick Feet offers CAP6 a trade-off on status effects by making the absorption of status (specifically burn or paralysis as CAP6 is immune to Poison) not inherently detrimental. A Burned CAP6 for example will still have double its usual attack power after Belly Drum (* 4 / 2), but will not be able to be revenged by Scarf users that are slower than it normally. Similarly, while Full Paralysis is still possible, Quick Feet nullifies the part of paralysis that is usually a reliable sweep stopper, instead enhancing CAP6's speed.
    Agile Turtle likes this.
  25. thecanvashat


    May 14, 2013
    One ability I think may be good is Marvel Scale. This ability can prevent the CAP6 from getting more dance when it is already statuses. It can prevent the CAP from being weakened too much by attacks and status at the same time.

    Alternatively, Water Veil is able to prevent Burns 100% of the time, allowing CAP6 to have immunity to all damaging status.
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