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CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 5 - Stat Limits

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Korski, Aug 25, 2013.

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  1. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    Well that was an exciting poll! This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is Detroitlolcat, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. Detroitlolcat will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 6 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

    These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 6. We will look at limits to CAP 6's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

    This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, I strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

    Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

    Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

    Stat Bias Limits

    Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

    Physical Tankiness (PT)
    The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.
    Physical Sweepiness (PS)
    The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.
    Special Tankiness (ST)
    The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.
    Special Sweepiness (SS)
    The rating of the Pokémon's special offense​
    A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found here and the formulae themselves can be found here. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice is free.

    If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then I suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!

    --------------------

    CAP 6 so far:
    Typing: Steel / Flying
    Abilities: Intimidate / ??? / ???
  2. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Pwnemon used Baton Pass!
    Pwnemon went back to CAP6 TLT!
    CAP6 TLT sent out DetroitLolcat!


    Hey, everyone. I’m DetroitLolcat and I’m your Stats TLT member, so it’s my job to direct the Stat Limits discussion that occurs in this thread. Remember, the Stat Limits discussion is not where we ultimately decide on the stats for this Pokemon, it’s where we decide how biased this Pokemon is towards Physical offense, Physical defense, Special offense, and Special defense.

    In this discussion, we determine the maximum values of offense and defense using the four metrics of Physical Sweepiness (PS), Physical Tankiness (PT), Special Sweepiness (SS), and Special Tankiness (ST). In this discussion, we're only searching for what the maximum values of those four metrics should be for CAP6. If, for example, I were to set the limit for Physical Sweepiness at 200, then legal stat spreads must have a Physical Sweepiness value of 200 or less. That doesn't mean that CAP6 will have a Physical Sweepiness value near 200, nor does it mean that in order to have a competitive stat spread submission, you must have a Physical Sweepiness value close to 200. Furthermore, there is a fifth metric, Base Stat Rating (BSR), that will also be determined at the end of this discussion. Base Stat Rating is a single value that determines how powerful a Pokemon is based solely on its base stats. This value will have a lower limit and an upper limit. The calculator for these metrics are in the previous post, so don't worry about not being able to calculate the PS, PT, SS, ST, and BSR based on your WIP stat spreads.

    We will determine the Stat Limits and BSR through discussion; at the end of the thread I will post the limits, then capefeather might edit them. When devising your arguments for specific limits, remember that you're only arguing for the upper limits of the stats. If your work-in-progress stat spread has a Special Tankiness of 120, then as long as the limit is 120 or greater, your spread is legal. So, when posting your argument, ask yourself: Why do we need the limit to be this high? If you believe that CAP6 needs a certain Physical Tankiness, demonstrate either that a lower Physical Tankiness is harmful to the concept or that if CAP6 has your proposed PT it will be able to withstand the Physical attacks necessary to accomplish the concept. The same goes for PS, SS, and ST; explain that your proposed limit needs to be included in the final limits in order for CAP to be successful. Support this reasoning with damage calculations from this sneakily placed hyperlink to Honko's Damage Calculator. My personal philosophy on Stat Limits are that I'm not opposed to higher Stat Limits because high Stat Limits do not necessarily lend themselves to high stats. Submitters are discouraged from riding the limits on every stat in the next stage anyway, and the maximum BSR is in place to force submitters from riding every limit. This stage is here to weed out ridiculous stat limit values and to place upper and lower limits on this Pokemon's stat-based power.

    To recap what we've done so far; we have a Steel/Flying Pokemon with Intimidate as its primary ability whose goal is to set up and cause damage with a Belly Drum boost. The recent decision to have Intimidate as our primary ability suggests that we want to set up on Physical attackers, which falls in line with our Threats Discussion. Our Threats Discussion concluded with Landorus-Therian, Hippowdon, Donphan, and Choiced Garchomp locked into Earthquake as prime targets to setup against. We also threaten Bullet Punch-locked Scizor, Ferrothorn, Blissey, and Celebi. On the other hand, bulky Steel-type Pokemon such as Jirachi and Skarmory should be able to defeat us more often than not under common battle conditions. But we already knew that; what does that mean for this discussion?

    Specifically, take CAP6's Primary Ability and Threats into account. Remember that CAP6's first Ability is Intimidate, so CAP6 will be able to lower an opponent's Attack stat by switching in. Intimidate acts as a crutch for our Physical Tankiness; we can obviously get away with lower PT since Intimidate is not taken into account by the PT metric. Many of the Pokemon that are supposed to threaten us are Special attackers such as Magnezone, Heatran, and speedy Scarfers such as Keldeo and Latios. Many Pokemon that were are supposed to threaten are Physical attackers such as Scizor and Landorus-Therian, so a high Physical Tankiness may seem intuitive. On the other hand, we need to balance our reliance on Intimidate with our reliance on our HP and Defense stats. On the offensive side of the Pokemon, focus on calculations after the Belly Drum rather than before; our goal is to set up and sweep with Belly Drum, not to see what we can do without boosting first. Belly Drum-free calculations have their place, and CAP6 will not always Drum before attacking, but the focus of the project is Belly Drum and we should not distract ourselves with sweeping without it.

    Furthermore, remember to argue based on what this CAP already has, not what you want it to have. Right now, we are a Steel/Flying Pokemon with Intimidate for an ability. Assume CAP6 will have common moves that are afforded to Steel and Flying Pokemon. An argument for 150 PS based on a Close Combat calculation isn't as convincing as one based on Drill Peck because there's no guarantee that CAP6 will even get Close Combat while it's highly likely the Pokemon will get Drill Peck. It's not unreasonable to believe CAP6 will end up with Close Combat, but we decide stat limits before movepool for a reason. The same logic applies to secondary abilities: an argument for lower Physical Sweepiness based on the speed boost from Unburden or Motor Drive isn't entirely valid when there's no guarantee this Pokemon will even get the abilities. Those calculations and arguments have their place and can certainly augment an already existing point, but claiming that we need a certain limit to complement a move or ability that we do not already have is supplementary at best and polljumping at worst.

    tl;dr? Just remember to keep Belly Drum as the focus of the discussion and to focus on what we can do with the boost. Also, don't polljump; root your arguments in what CAP6 already has rather than what you want to have.

    To wrap this post up, I'm going to post a few specific questions to spark some discussion. Feel free to respond to these questions or post your own; these questions are just to get the Voltorb rolling.

    1. To what degree should we rely on Intimidate to set up on Physical attackers, and to what degree should we rely on Physical Tankiness to set up on Physical attackers?

    2. Which Pokemon that are not designated Threats should be able to successfully take a Belly Drum-boosted attack from CAP6, and how much should those threats limit CAP6's Physical Sweepiness?

    3. Should our Pokemon have enough bulk to set up on Pokemon not designated by the Threats Discussion. If so, which ones?

    There are plenty more questions that are relevant to deciding stat limits, but those three should get us off to a great start. Not every limit proposed will answer those questions, and not every post needs to address these questions and only these questions. I will post my own opinions for what I personally believe is the way to go with CAP6 later; for now I'd like to hear what everyone else is thinking! For live discussions of CAP6’s stats and Stat Limits, be sure to head to #cap on IRC to chat in real time with other CAP members!

    I'll post time warnings when the discussion has progressed.

    Now, discuss stat limits with such wit, reason, and verve that professors of the English language will use this discussion in their advanced rhetoric classes!
  3. Ignus

    Ignus

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    Aright, gonna post and hopefully make sense. Let's start by talking about our ability and how it effects our spread.

    The great thing about intimidate is that it can open up scenarios for us to set up on pokemon we wouldn't normally think of setting up on, while still allowing those pokemon to revenge kill or hurt us after the fact. We have the ability to adjust our stats into a certain "sweet spot" for this kind of thing. We will, of course, have to worry about the edges of the sweet spot, as we will still have to handle our predetermined set up victims. Scizor especially comes to mind. For example, being able to switch in on Scizor and boost up is one thing. Being able to handle him AFTER the setup is the real issue. If we get chipped as we set up, it suddenly becomes much harder to handle our checks.

    As such, I would suggest we aim for such a threshold. A threshold where, with proper usage, we cannot die to our set-up victims with intimidate active or die them trying to revenge kill as we set up. Secondly, this threshold should allow us to set up on a variety of threats as long as the intimidate debuff is active, but should be able to be revenge killed by these same pokemon if they are choiced correctly.

    This mentality allows us to be simultaneously useful in a variety of situations while still allowing us to be handled in certain scenarios.
    Honestly, our typing handles most of this. With a PT of around 175ish, we take on dragons extremely well, Scarfed Terrakion does less than 50% in with intimidate around and banded versions can't kill us as long as we have Sitrus. Landorus-T can't touch us. Brelloom has the same problems that Terrak has.

    Just my first thoughts. A strong Physical defense of around there would be ideal, as far as I'm concerned. We'll have to pay close attention to this especially, as it will determine the difference between being useful and being too risky. S to sum it up, Scizor should be what we base our physically defensive stat spread around. If we can handle it, we can suddenly set up on a variety of threats without damaging the influence of our checks- the majority of which are specially based, anyhow.

    Edit: oh god people post faster so I can argue with you D:
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
  4. Base Speed

    Base Speed What a load of BS!
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    On Intimidate vs PT:

    I'm so sorry about the negativity, but we're actually in a really, really shitty situation here.
    We have Breloom and Mamoswine on our threatslist, saying we want to be hurt by their priority. To keep them as threats, we have to have low PT. 80/80 is the maximum we can have if we want Breloom to KO us after a Belly Drum if we don't invest (we'll have to go WAY lower if we want Mamoswine to get us too). But that stat leaves us with a plethora of common OU physical attackers that we can't set up on even with Intimidate, including, but not limited to Terrakion, Kyurem, Dragonite and Garchomp. That's just not acceptable: we've chosen Intimidate because we want more set up opportunities, and we wouldn't be getting them.

    So in answer to DetroitLolCat's question, it depends. Do we want to lose Loom and Swine as threats? Then let's get some PT! Are we happy being spanked by common OU mons? Then let's rely on Intimidate only. Sadly, there's no middle ground.

    Edit: Do remember that damage taken on set up will give Breloom and Mamoswine an easier time revenging us. Keep that in mind while discussing this and thanks to Pwnemon for pointing it out to me.

    Some calcs, in case you don't believe me:

    Show Hide
    With 80/80 defenses (or a PT of 121.9):

    252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 153-183 (50.83 - 60.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 103-122 (34.21 - 40.53%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    (Life Orbs are run on only 30% of Breloom and 42.5% of Swines)

    -1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 157-186 (52.15 - 61.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 216+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 232-274 (77.07 - 91.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 148-176 (49.16 - 58.47%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 164-195 (54.48 - 64.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 151-178 (50.16 - 59.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (note, bulky variants can't get 50% and Choice variants are unlikely to be locked into Superpower)

    Note: None of these needed a Choice Band to KO

    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
  5. Legend13

    Legend13

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    While Base Speed Does have a point, there is still somewhat of a middle ground: If CAP6 takes Stealth Rock Damage, then 90/89 defenses are still a guaranteed 2HKO from Breloom, and if CAP6 has taken Stealth Rock damage and Belly Drummed (and is attempting to sweep), 100/100 defenses won't save it from being revenged by Breloom (once again, guarunteed). Of course, Stealth Rock can knock us into 2HKO range for some mons that we counter. With 90/89 Defenses Uninvested, Stealth Rock knocks us into the guarunteed KO range for Terrakion, Garchomp, Dragonite, and Scizor, while Kyurem-B simply does too much damage with Fusion Bolt. However, with 100/100 Uninvested, Stealth Rock gives Terrakion and Garchomp a (minuscule, in the case of Terrakion) chance to 2HKO us, while Kyurem-B still threatens us with Fusion Bolt Regardless of Hazards. However, even with the hazards, Dragonite and Scizor can't 2HKO us.

    By factoring in Stealth Rock, our KO range has become a little more flexible, allowing us to face the pokemon we are supposed to threaten while still being threatened by Breloom.

    Show Hide

    All Calcs are Uninvested in Defense

    With 80/80

    252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 153-183 (50.83 - 60.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 103-122 (34.21 - 40.53%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    With 90/89 with Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 142-168 (44.23 - 52.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 95-113 (29.59 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock With 100/100 with Stealth Rock and Belly Drum 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 129-152 (37.82 - 44.57%) on top of 12.5 percent from Stealth Rock and 50% from Belly Drum, this can revenge.
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 87-103 (25.51 - 30.2%) -- 3.93% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock , CAP6 can no longer Belly Drum as it will be KO'd on the turn it does.

    With 90/89

    -1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 144-171 (44.85 - 53.27%) -- 31.25% chance to 2HKO
    -1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 144-171 (44.85 - 53.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 216+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 212-250 (66.04 - 77.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 136-162 (42.36 - 50.46%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 136-162 (42.36 - 50.46%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 135-161 (42.05 - 50.15%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 135-161 (42.05 - 50.15%) -- 92.19% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 138-162 (42.99 - 50.46%) -- 1.95% chance to 2HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 138-162 (42.99 - 50.46%) -- 96.48% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    With 100/100

    -1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 130-154 (38.12 - 45.16%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    -1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 130-154 (38.12 - 45.16%) -- 6.64% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 216+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 192-228 (56.3 - 66.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 124-146 (36.36 - 42.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 124-146 (36.36 - 42.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 135-161 (39.58 - 47.21%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 135-161 (39.58 - 47.21%) -- 43.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 125-148 (36.65 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 125-148 (36.65 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
  6. Redwolf

    Redwolf

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    If we're basing this around setting up belly drum, we definitely need some PT. But I'm also thinking about having a substantial amount of ST? I mean the majority of fire and electric type attacks (Assuming motor drive doesn't find its way into a secondary ability slot) are all special based. Heatran and special based infernape could easily take us out with a STAB fire blast after we belly drum, not to mention Zapdos, Magneton, Rotom... The list goes on and on. If we're hoping for success with belly drum we're definitely going to need some PT to assist intimidate for switch ins but... what i'm concerned about is the OHKO's they can get on us with powerful special electric and fire types. (Also sorry I'm kinda new to CAP but I just wanted to put in my two cents... Tell me if I did something wrong with formatting or something)

    Edit:
    I understand we will be setting up primarily on physical attackers we definitely need the ST too. If we get switched in on by a fast special attacker (especially one we have a weakness to,) it could force us into a switch out and end up negating CAP 6's effectiveness. Of course with a some setup the likelyhood of this could be reduced, ST shouldn't be underestimated here.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  7. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    This isn't even the problem with Loom and Swine being on our threats list. Since we chose Intimidate and not Unburden, if we want to not be spanked by every scarfer in the game, we have two choices: Priority move, or unrealistically high speed. Let's just exclude the high speed right now, for optics reasons if nothing else—150+ isn't reasonable. So if we have Bullet Punch, any realistic base Attack at +6 is going to KO loom/mamo after rocks. The only way to make us lose to loom if we have prio is to be slower than loom, at which point any non-prio move is pretty much useless. Loom and mamo on the threats list is simply infeasible: there's no problem with being beaten by loom, but we have to bend over backwards to do it.
  8. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    Let's talk about how to make the best use of Intimidate for this CAP (hint: it does not involve switching into Terrakion or Kyurem-B). I hate to keep bringing this up, but it is absolutely in our best interest to not get hit, ever, with any attacks at all, when using this CAP. All these calcs hovering around 50% damage do us no good when the assumption is to "soften the blow" of physical attacks you've knowingly switched into; they're still going to do enough damage to put you in KO range of revenge killers. Intimidate is nice and everything, but it is not a catch-all solution to setting up on physical opponents. This tenet still remains: if you Belly Drum, you can be easily revenged by Specially-based Choice Scarf users and Breloom. Intimidate does not change what happens after a Belly Drum. CAP will never take a -1 Breloom Mach Punch or a -1 Scarf Terrakion Close Combat unless its user is terrible at Pokemons or has some Wish support coming in (still a bad idea).

    In my opinion, we should look to gen. 4 Offensive DD Gyarados on this one, for how to best utilize Intimidate. What Gyarados did was switch into stuff like BP/Pursuit/Superpower-locked Scizor after a sacrifice, so that it wouldn't have to try setting up through multiple potential hits. Whether or not Gyara took 25% from Stealth Rock, it was obvious to both battlers that at -1, Scizor was never going to do enough damage to halt Gyarados's sweep, and that Gyarados was guaranteed a sweep if the Scizor stayed in and continued Bullet Punching at ~20% damage per hit. Because both battlers were rationally acting in their own self-interest, the Scizor user switched out to Rotom-H or whatever while the Gyarados user freely Dragon Danced. In summation, through use of Intimidate, Gyarados was able to force a switch and completely avoid taking even a -1 physical attack while it set up. That, imo, should be our #1 goal with this primary ability.

    Gyara did this with uninvested 95/79 bulk (135 PT), to devastating effect. Now, Belly Drum is stupid hard to set up and sweep with compared to Dragon Dance, so what I think we need to do is use the PT of this Poke to establish a handful of "Scizors" that everybody will be able to easily identify as the sorts of mons that need to gtfo of the battlefield at -1 if they don't want to get swept. This could include anything in between Ferrothorn and ScarfChomp, or it could be something more specifically tailored to particular sets. I haven't looked through all the calcs posted so far, but I bet we can find a decent PT limit that corrals some high-OU Pokes into the ideal range where they are simply forced out by -1 Atk. Most likely, we will need more than 135 PT, possibly up to 160 or 180, to cover the ground lost by halving our HP.

    I'm going to leave this here for now and maybe post more later so there isn't just a wall of text.
  9. SoulMuse

    SoulMuse

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    Hrm, gonna try and make sense here.

    A note about Breloom: In order to be threatened by Loom, we need a PT of about 136 (80/90), factoring in Stealth Rock, which puts us at close to always OHKOed by Mach Punch as Rocks, Drum and Sitrus. Even a PS of only 107 (80 Attack, 71 Speed), assuming max speed to outspeed loom will do 65% with Bullet Punch after Belly Drum.

    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 174-205 (58.58 - 69.02%) --guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (This was done using a spread of 78/115, or a PT of about 171)

    Scarf Terrakion has about a good chance to KO (I think about 50%) if it switches in while we are setting up a Belly Drum, even factoring in Sitrus and Rocks (100-12.5%(Rocks)=87.5-50%(Drum)=37.7%+25%(Sitrus)=62.5%). Looking all the calcs posted, one of the things I notice is that many of them factor in an Intimidate stat drop where one really isn't applicable. Are we really going to bring CAP6 in on Terrakion to try and set up?

    -1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 126-148 (46.66 - 54.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    All that happens here is we get KOed. Switch in on an attack, take 50%, activate Sitrus, and get forced out. According to the threats list, we want CAP6 to be checked by Choice Scarfers, not to set up on them. Because of this, these mons aren't going to get an attack drop, as they are switching in while we Drum. (Unless I am totally forgetting how Intimidate works).

    In any case, I am supporting a PT of between 170 and 180. This allows us to set up on Lando-T with relative ease, only fearing Superpower (See below). Similarly, we can come in and set up in the face of any Scizor not using Superpower, and force them out. (After a Drum, Drill Peck OHKO on non Banded Scizor, so it isn't like it can SD in our face while we Drum, using Skarmory's attack/speed, which has is a PS of 102.) However, it also lets us be taken down by Scarfers such as Terrakion (See Calc Above), Keldeo, Heatran, (do I really need a calc for this?), Thundurus-T, and Salamence. Other hard stops to a sweep woudl include move Jirachi, Magnezone, and Heatran with stats like this.

    -1 252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 91-108 (33.7 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Scarfers: (Using a defensive spread of 78/115/85, or a PT about 170, and an ST of 128)

    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 235-277 (79.12 - 93.26%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 408-480 (137.37 - 161.61%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    4 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 226-268 (76.09 - 90.23%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    That covers what can check/counter, but what can we actually set up on? I'll go with Korski's description, i.e. mons that do ~15-20% or so. I'm not going to post calcs for these, but they are being done, using the same spread I used above (Using a defensive spread of 78/115/85, or a PT about 170, and an ST of 128).

    Ferrothorn, although Thunderwave would be a concern, Gyro Ball does about 10% with a base speed less than 80.
    Scizor lacking Superpower
    Blissey/Chansey Lackign Thunderwave (This can be adjusted with HP and HP investment)

    Are a few examples. I'll stop now, since I think I am starting to not make sense.

    Point is, I support a PT up to 180, still tinkering with other stats right now.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    About Physical Tankiness (PT)

    Completely agreeing withe a PT range of 160 - 180 for now. 180 PT is the maximum we should have because then Choice Scarfers that should naturally check us fail to OHKO us even after SR and a Belly Drum. Not only this, but with a PT of 180 we can still be always 2HKOed by CB Terrakion's CC after SR if we are using max HP, meaning that while an offensive tank set would still have merits it wouldn't be all over the place for its ridiculous tanking abilties. And i am assuming only max HP and not max Defense because the CAP most probably will have an Atk stat between 90-110, which is just not enough to be useful in a tanking role when uninvested and with the strongest reliable STAB moves with a max BP of 80 (Iron Head and Drill Peck. Acrobatics is a no on tank sets due to Lefties). Here are the calcs of CB Terrakion's CC and Scarf Landorus-T's Superpower:
    • -1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 180-213 (46.63 - 55.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 131-155 (40.55 - 47.98%) -- 10.16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (always OHKO after the use of BD and SR)
    I guess i don't have any serious justification for the lower PT limit but it's not that important anyway so i'll leave it as it is for now. Oh and i am seriously hoping that people don't think that the CAP should be switching against offensive Pokemon in order to setup, as no other offensive Pokemon in OU does that, at least not commonly. Offensive Pokemon come in on free switches (via U-turn/Volt Switch or after a Pokemon faints) or on immunities/4x resisted attacks and almost never against an offensive Pokemon. This means that we don't need ridiculous PT to switch into physical offensive threats, just enough to take one hit after or before using Belly Drum, preferably after Stealth Rock.

    About Physical Sweepiness (PS)

    I am gonna assume that Drill Peck and Iron Head will be in our movepool, as they are the most reliable strong STABs that exist. Here are some calcs:
    Iron Head and Drill Peck calcs (open)

    vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon
    • Base 90 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Iron Head: 261-307 (62.14 - 73.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Base 100 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Iron Head: 280-330 (66.66 - 78.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Base 110 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Iron Head: 298-352 (70.95 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Base 110 Atk +6 252+ Atk Skarmory Iron Head: 327-385 (77.85 - 91.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • Base 110 Atk +6 252+ Atk Metal Coat Skarmory Iron Head: 391-462 (93.09 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    Note that Hippowdon will be switching into us, which means that SR will be negated by Lefties, which is why i haven't included it.

    vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn
    • Base 90 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck: 273-322 (77.55 - 91.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • Base 100 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck: 292-345 (82.95 - 98.01%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • Base 100 Atk +6 252+ Atk Skarmory Drill Peck: 321-378 (91.19 - 107.38%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W
    • Base 90 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck: 191-225 (63.87 - 75.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • Base 100 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck: 205-242 (68.56 - 80.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • Base 110 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck: 219-258 (73.24 - 86.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • Base 110 Atk +6 252+ Atk Skarmory Drill Peck: 240-283 (80.26 - 94.64%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (almost 0% actually due to Lefties recovery after Rotom-W switches in against us)
    vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent
    • Base 90 +6 252 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck: 379-447 (94.04 - 110.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    As we can see, 90 Atk is the minimum required to OHKO one of the softest physical walls in OU, Jellicent, at +6. For this reason i don't think that we should have an Attack stat below 90. While some may say that Acrobatics would give us the power we need i have to say two things. First we are not sure it will get it (minor) and second, not all sets will want to use a one-time use item (major). Also, we don't have any chance of OHKOing physically defensive Hippowdon with Drill Peck / Iron Head unless we go with 110 Atk, Metal Coat, and an Adamant nature.

    Now let's do some calcs for Acrobatics too, which is a very safe move to assume in our moveset (i will be using Aerial Ace instead of Acrobatics in the calcs, with a modified BP of 110):
    Acrobatics calcs (open)

    vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon
    • Base 90 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Aerial Ace: 358-423 (85.23 - 100.71%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
    • Base 100 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Aerial Ace: 384-453 (91.42 - 107.85%) -- 50 chance to OHKO
    • Base 110 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Aerial Ace: 409-483 (97.38 - 115%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    Note that Hippowdon will be switching into us, which means that SR will be negated by Lefties, which is why i haven't included it.

    vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn
    • Base 90 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Aerial Ace: 373-441 (105.96 - 125.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W
    • Base 90 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Aerial Ace: 263-310 (87.95 - 103.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • Base 100 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Aerial Ace: 282-333 (94.31 - 111.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (This is the real guaranteed OHKO after SR, as it factors in for Lefties too)
    vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran
    • Base 90 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Aerial Ace: 265-312 (82.04 - 96.59%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • Base 100 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Aerial Ace: 284-335 (87.92 - 103.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Finally, let's see some calcs about Bullet Punch, another very important move that the CAP is very likely to get:
    Bullet Punch calcs (open)

    vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom
    • Base 90 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Bullet Punch: 246-289 (93.89 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios
    • Base 90 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Bullet Punch: 246-289 (81.72 - 96.01%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • Base 100 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Bullet Punch: 262-310 (87.04 - 102.99%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias
    • Base 100 Atk +6 252 Atk Skarmory Bullet Punch: 238-282 (78.8 - 93.37%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +6 252 Atk Skarmory Bullet Punch: 255-300 (84.43 - 99.33%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence
    • +6 252 Atk Skarmory Bullet Punch: 246-289 (74.32 - 87.31%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +6 252 Atk Skarmory Bullet Punch: 262-310 (79.15 - 93.65%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    The conclusions i make from those calcs are the following:

    - We need to have at least 90 Atk and max 110 Atk, as anything more is uneccesary
    - If we pick Bullet Punch, Breloom won't be a check to us, which is fine imo
    - We need 100 Attack if we want to OHKO Scarf Lati@s and 110 Atk if we want to OHKO physically defensive Hippo with non-Flight gem Acrobatics

    Also, the CAP needs either Extremspeed or a base Speed higher than 109. Why? Because we need a way to OHKO non-Scarf Keldeo at +6, otherwise the CAP will just be A miserable sweeper. At least if we force it to use a Scarf we will have managed to restrict its options a bit, but if we can't even KO regular Keldeo then we aren't going anywhere. However, i don't like Extremspeed at all, as it removes too many of our checks, such as Extremespeed Dragonite, Mach Punch Conkeldurr, Ice Shard Weavile, and any Choice Scarf user that is not Jirachi or Scizor (Gengar, Terrakion, and Tyranitar are taken care of by Bullet Punch), making it extremely difficult for offensive teams to deal with after it sets up.

    This is why i think that going with 109 base Speed minimum is the only way to go, while any reasonable Speed stat (which means no more than 130ish) is ok as long as we don't have more than 110 Atk. This translates in terms of PS to a minimum of 155 and a maximum of 210, or even 200 if people are too afraid of 110 Atk on a very speedy Pokemon (they shouldn't though, as no matter our Speed, if our Attack is 110 or lower then walls such as Skarmory, Jirachi, and Heatran and revenge killers such as Scizor, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, and some Choice Scarf users will all still check us).

    tl;dr

    160 < PT < 180
    155 < PS < 200-210
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
    Seed, dwarfstar, Deoxymoron and 4 others like this.
  11. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    When dealing with stat limits, it is important to remember just that: that they are limits. This means that what we should be looking at it not what limits would allow our individual visions of stat spreads, but at what level one of the stat limits would allow something that would be potentially harmful to the concept.

    Of all the limits, the one that I think is most important to get right here is the Physical Sweepieness. We obviously need physical ability, as we are looking to take the role of a physical attacker, after all. However, we need to entice the use of the move Belly Drum. When it comes to the movepool stage we can easily limit things so that Belly Drum is the only non attacking move that CAP 6 would want to use, however, we can't guarantee it won't prefer to just slap on a Life Orb or Choice item and go to town. That is something we must ensure with stats. Unfortunately, this can be quite difficult. I know there are many people, myself included, that think good speed may be necessary to preform well. Yet, the more speed we give, the less power is needed to make something like a Choice Band attractive, as the fastest common Pokemon (Alakazam, Dugtrio, Jolteon, Starmie, Latios, Espeon) are generally frail. What's more, many of the next tier of fast Pokemon (such as Keldeo and Terrakion) are weak to our STABs, making power even less necessary to beat them if they are outsped.

    Now, if our power is low enough so that Belly Drum is absolutely critical to being useful, speed won't be an issue. They key is finding that point. Many of the fast Pokemon are so hopelessly frail that lowering our power so not to beat them if we outspeed is unfeasible. However, I believe that unless we easily beat all, or almost all, that we outpace, Choice sets will not be attractive. Due to that, I think the key match-ups are vs Latios and Latias. If we want to outspeed these two, I don't think we should be afforded the power to take them out with a choice set. This does not simply mean that we can't OHKO though. Residual damage and the like are too common to assume Pokemon are are full health. Rather, the metric I have in mind defining whether we are too good a beating an offensive Pokemon we outspeed is if we can KO after it has taken damage from Stealth Rocks, not once, but twice. If we don't want to be beating Lati@s unboosted, then I think it is key for Latios (the frailer one) to be able to survive our most powerful hit even after having switched in twice. I don't want to assume too much as far as movepool, but assuming a neutral hitting base 80 STAB move (Iron Head or Drill Peck), we would need less than base 97 to fail to ever get that KO with a Choice Band set, assuming a Jolly Nature. Of course, this is all irrelevant if we don't outspeed, so to get a limit, 111 speed would be assumed. 97/111 offenses give a PS of 173.5. Since this constitutes a set of stats that I believe would be too much for what we want to do, I would recommend a PS limit of 173.

    As for the other limits, I mostly agree with what has already been said as far as PT. Don't have much to add there. I don't think we need a ton of ST when we are setting up primarily on physical attackers, so letting that fall down into a lower range is probably fine. I don't have any specific number, but I don't think there is any real special attack I think is all that important to take. Finally, SS should be pathetic. I mean very pathetic. We should not be able to do anything on the special side, period. Our goal is Belly Drum usage, and nothing screams not to use belly drum like a remotely usable special attack stat. Like seriously, we should be looking in the Poor or worse range here. Lets not even risk anything here.

    EDIT @ below: I completely disagree with the notion of a lower limit on SS. Why does it matter at all? BSR abuse is banned by rule. Setting limits to avoid it makes no sense. If we are that concerned with BSR problems that could arise from lower SpA, then we should lower the BSR limit, not set a lower limit for SS. Pathetic special attack is 100% in line with what we want here.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  12. Korski

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    Okay I am looking at a few things on the BSR calcsheet and I think I've figured out where I think the limits should be.

    Physical Sweepiness: 175 upper limit. This is probably the most relevant limit to impose here, naturally. What I fear from a high limit on PS is that it will open the door to spreads that toe the line of not depending on Belly Drum to do appreciable damage, or even worse, flagrantly disregard its intended use on this CAP. For instance, 106 Atk / 130 Spe is under 200 PS, as is 111/110, 113/105, 118/100, and 132/90. These combinations are undesirable to me because they either outrun too much while simultaneously doing too much damage, or they simply do too much damage at +0 to rely on Belly Drum. Atk/Spe combinations like these encourage the use of anything but Belly Drum, and arguments for them once again rely on giving CAP a pretty crappy movepool. Going off of alexwolf's calcs above, even +6 Drill Peck from 90 base Atk does monstrous damage to the bulkiest physical things in the tier (then there's 85.23 - 100.71% with Acrobatics to max/max+ Hippo o.0). I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather have to actually weaken some stuff before being able to KO them if the other option is risking a final product that foregoes BD for a speedy LO/CB Intimidate pivot set.

    Would you like some moar powah with your moar speed? If we want this thing to have the defensive stats to set up, and we don't want this CAP to become a bulky pivot, we absolutely cannot go balls out with this category like alexwolf suggested, or else we would just be shattering the Speed/Power/Bulk triangle altogether. IMO I don't even want to give stat spread submitters the option of riding a limit like 200 PS. Examples of <175 PS spreads are: 94/130, 98/110, 101/105, 105/100, and 116/90. I would love to hear arguments about how those will be insufficient combinations for our purposes here.

    Physical Tankiness: 180 upper limit. I can see the argument for Slowbro-level defenses (185 PT), so long as it's balanced by a not-outrageous PS. I have already posted on PT and I think there is at least consensus on this one. I don't really want to see a lower limit on this rating, as I also think there are a lot of viable arguments to set the PT nowhere near this high.

    Special Sweepiness: 115 lower limit. This rating doesn't really need a limit; the one I've posted here is actually designed to keep people from manipulating the BST/BSR with stupid low SpA stats (30-59 range) like we always do. SpA will be our dump stat this time around, again, so I would be interested in pre-empting the most manipulative spreads with a clear statement that that sort of stuff will not be appreciated. This isn't too restrictive, either; examples of >115 SS spreads are 62/130, 65/105, and 74/90. These stats won't be used, regardless, but it would be nice if we could discontinue this bothersome trend of stat superdumping.

    Special Tankiness: 160 upper limit. Nothing about our typing or ability suggests we should be tanking special attacks. I haven't really heard any arguments on #cap for even a halfway decent ST, but if they are out there, they deserve to have a voice.

    BSR: 300 upper limit. This is the threshold between "Good" and "Very Good." Messing around with a few combinations of PS, PT, SS, and ST, I couldn't come up with any reasonable spreads that broke this limit. With Belly Drum and a SpA dump stat, any spreads that want to break into the Very Good category are probably trying too hard to do too many things at once.
  13. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    Looking at Stat Limits, here's my general thoughts:

    Physical Tankiness: Intimidate means slightly less physical bulk than CAP6 would otherwise have, but not a lot less. Intimidate does help CAP6 set up on a lot of threats, especially a lot of locked in-revenge killers, but the sheer power of a lot of OU threats mean CAP6 will still have to take physical hits with some credibility. Personally I think a physical tankiness limit around 170 would be suitable. This doesn't need to be a bulky pivot, but it does need to take resisted hits.

    Physical Sweepiness is going to difficult to police, but effectively we're trying to ensure lower Attack and higher Speed as our general policy. The real control we're trying to establish is on the maximum combination. Setting the PS limit at 165 would mean the following Atk / Speed values:

    88 and below - All feasible speeds (131+)
    89 - 130 Max Spe
    90 - 120 Max Spe
    91 - 115 Max Spe
    92 - 110 Max Spe
    93 - 108 Max Spe
    94 - 105 Max Spe
    95 - 102 Max Spe
    100 - 96 Max Spe

    Special Sweepiness: Korski does make the valid point this will become a dump stat without a lower limit, but the best way to address that is better policing or a limit range for BSR to not allow incredibly low BSRs. For example with your lower limit SS req I'd have a BSR on my spread of 275.31, but if I went ahead and did what I wanted it'd be 251.2822. I really don't think we need a huge BSR for this Pokemon, its typing and ability are quite adequate. I'd rather we have a lower Overall BSR limit of 260 minimum than a lower SS rating of 115. It's not as if it matters that my 120 Spe spread has 62 SpA instead of 45 or 50. SS is irrelevant, but cap it at 145 and call it a day.

    Special Tankiness: Truthfully, Steel / Flying just isn't a good Specially Defensive type anyway because Flying is susceptible to both elements of BoltBeam and has no relevant special attack resistances. I think a limit of 142 ST is enough to allow for a broad range of Special Defense spreads without CAP6 becoming an all-purpose pivot (ex. max Spreads are 70 HP / 100 SpD, or 100 HP / 80 SpD).

    Overall BSR: Going to my earlier point, I think setting a BSR lower limit is the best way to avoid abuse. People can turn SpA into a dump stat, but in order to do so they need to inflate ever more their other stats within the limits until it becomes clear they're just gaming the calculator. My suggestion for BSR would be a range of 265 -300.
  14. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Wow, a lot of great points have been brought up over the past two days, so let's start narrowing down what we potentially want to be doing with this CAP's stats. Ignus and Korski brought up the point that Intimidate is useful for letting CAP6 set up after a teammate falls on Pokemon that cannot greatly harm us, much like Gyarados did last gen. I like that point because it plays off of what we chose Intimidate for; we need to use Intimidate for setup purposes. Base Speed also brings up the point that to an extent, we'll have to make a choice between adhering to the Threats Discussion and letting Breloom and Mamoswine revenge us easily and actually being able to set up and sweep. A PT of 125 makes us unable to set up on Fire Fang Garchomp with or without Life Orb, Fire Punch Dragonite, and many other threats that any Steel/Flying Pokemon should naturally set up on.

    However, that just shows me that a Physical Tankiness of 125 or lower is unreasonable. Thanks to Breloom's obscene power, we're going to be vulnerable to a Mach Punch unless we've Belly Drummed, avoided taking a hit, and eaten a Sitrus Berry all in the same turn; if that situation occurs then CAP6 deserves to beat Breloom anyway. I definitely think an Excellent Physical Tankiness needs to be in the discussion. Remember, we're under no pressure to be threatened by Mamoswine, and we chose an ability that augments our Physical bulk. With Dragons being so strong in this metagame, I don't see CAP6 working as a bulky pivot when it's most likely 3HKO'd or 4HKO'd by Outrage and may not have reliable means to recoup its health (seriously movepool guys, don't give it Roost).

    The most important limit to discuss here is Physical Sweepiness. This is also the most difficult limit to deal with since our concept throws out all conventions of the traditional Physical Sweepiness metric. With Belly Drum, we could potentially make the most fearsome Physical sweeper in OU despite having a double-digit Attack stat. There are many ways to make this Pokemon work with even an Above Average (PS<125) Physical Sweepiness, but that's not to say a high Physical Sweepiness doesn't have its place in the discussion. As of now, CAP6 has no ways of boosting its Speed or dealing with Pokemon faster than it. For that reason, a high Physical Sweepiness limit is almost a mandate because we need some degree of Power and Speed. I'm defining Power and Speed by the Build Triangle, not by the stat limits. CAP6 may draw its power from its Attack stat, it may draw its power from a secondary ability, or it may draw its power from its movepool. The same goes with Speed; CAP6 may have a high Speed stat, it may have priority attacks, or it may have a Speed-boosting ability. The fastest Pokemon in OU is Jolteon at 130 Speed, and there is a chance that CAP6 will have neither priority attacks nor a Speed-boosting Ability. For that reason, I believe spreads with base 131 Speed need to be addressed and tolerated from a stat limits perspective. I don't particularly like high Speed spreads, but they merit discussion and shouldn't be culled this early in the process.

    The limit I'm currently thinking of for Physical Sweepiness is 180. 180 lets us run 131 Speed and 97 Attack. 97 Attack, as jas61292 pointed out, makes a Choice Band set extremely unreliable, and it also stays under the midpoint for OU Attack stats. Furthermore, with 132 Speed, we can outspeed Starmie and still run an Adamant nature. These are all options I would like to keep on the table during Stat Limits, but if anyone thinks that's too much/not enough, please post! This Physical Sweepiness limit forces us under 100 Attack for any Speed stat of 111 or above. 100 and 97 seem to be the two "hot button" base Attack values for this CAP, and 180 PS works around those and the major Speed benchmarks.

    If CAP6 were to have 130 Speed or higher, it could have a Physical Sweepiness around 180 with the Attack stats being discussed right now. The BSR limit would make people pay in bulk for riding the PS limit, so a high Physical Sweepiness wouldn't necessarily make CAP6 broken.

    Special Tankiness hasn't been touched on much. The real question with Special Tankiness is what kind of attacks should be doing less than 50% to us. That main issue for that is weak attacks such as Surfs and Scalds, plus Choice Scarfed attacks. I'd like to hear a little more on Special Tankiness and I'll provide some more talking points about that later because I don't want to delay this post or make it sickeningly long.

    In terms of BSR, I don't think we'll need too high a limit. Most spreads I've been tinkering around with have been well under 300. I certainly don't want to go very deep into the Very Good range for that. This is mostly because Belly Drum gives us so much slack with Physical Sweepiness, but before we get too into BSR I'd like to hear more about Physical Tankiness and especially Special Tankiness which hasn't really been discussed much.

    Questions to Discuss (feel free to discuss other things, of course. These are just items I'd like to hear more about)

    1. Is it worth accommodating a Physical Sweepiness of 180 or higher in order to outspeed the fastest Pokemon in OU?

    2. What Special attacks should CAP6 take less than 50% damage from?
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
  15. SoulMuse

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    Having spent a few minutes tinkering with a couple of spreads based the idea of outspeeding some of the faster OU mons.

    Even with a PS of as little as 145.4 (80/131 Attack/Speed), after a Drum, CAP6 is easily able to run right through these mons. The bulkiest set run by a mon above base 105 speed that is onsite is defensive Calm Mind Latias, which is still comfortably defeated without investment. (Keldeo is statically bulkier, but because it is hit super effectively I am discounting it.)

    +6 0 Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Latias: 225-265 (61.81 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Other high speed mons are OHKOed after Stealth Rock.

    Running an attack of Base 80, no EVs, Neutral Natures through the damage calaculator, at plus +6, using Drill Peck and Iron Head as STABs, no coverage moves (A PS of 145.4), we lose out on the following KOs, as opposed to a spread of 96 Attack, 131 Speed (PS 178.65).

    Tentacruel (OU Support)Drill Peck87.36 - 103.02%Iron Head43.68 - 51.37%
    Dragonite (OU Multiscale Shuffler)Drill Peck89.37 - 105.18%Iron Head89.37 - 105.18%
    Dragonite (OU Tank)Drill Peck90.15 - 105.95%Iron Head90.15 - 105.95%
    Jolteon (OU Baton Pass)Drill Peck91.88 - 108.48%Iron Head91.88 - 108.48%
    Vaporeon (OU Hydration Tank)Drill Peck93.51 - 110.22%Iron Head46.63 - 55.11%
    Gliscor (OU AcroBat)Drill Peck93.81 - 110.65%Iron Head93.81 - 110.65%
    Reuniclus (OU Offensive Trick Room)Drill Peck94.86 - 111.73%Iron Head94.86 - 111.73%
    Scizor (OU Baton Pass)Drill Peck94.75 - 111.95%Iron Head47.23 - 55.97%
    Gastrodon (OU Defensive)Drill Peck95.3 - 112.2%Iron Head47.65 - 56.1%
    Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance)Drill Peck96.22 - 113.66%Iron Head47.96 - 56.68%
    Scizor (OU Trapper)Drill Peck96.5 - 113.99%Iron Head48.1 - 56.85%
    Garchomp (OU Choice Band)Drill Peck97.2 - 114.24%Iron Head97.2 - 114.24%
    Landorus-T (OU Choice Scarf [Intimidate])Drill Peck97.24 - 114.67%Iron Head97.24 - 114.67%
    Espeon (OU Baton Pass)Drill Peck97.9 - 115.26%Iron Head97.9 - 115.26%
    Landorus-T (OU Gravity [Intimidate])Drill Peck99.37 - 117.18%Iron Head99.37 - 117.18%
    Latias (OU Calm Mind)Drill Peck99.72 - 117.3%Iron Head99.72 - 117.3%
    Landorus-T (OU Rock Polish [Intimidate])Drill Peck99.68 - 117.55%Iron Head99.68 - 117.55%
    Gyarados (OU Bulky Dragon Dance [Intimidate])Drill Peck99.71 - 117.56%Iron Head49.85 - 58.64%

    I don't have time to run calcs to and figure out which of these actually matter all that much, right now I guess they are just food for thought. I'll either edit, or post again later when I have more time to check my figures, but for now, I am personally supporting a PS limit of 165-170. Anything more than that seems a bit like overkill to me.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Let me explain why none of those spreads will be undesirable. Let's go first with your example that has the biggest Atk, 132/90. If we go with this spread it should be clear that the CAP will be outsped and KOed by everything offensive unless we give it Extremespeed, which we shouldn't ever do with such a big Atk stat, as it would just make the CAP unrevengkillable. To show you what i mean, the bulkiest Scarf user in OU that resists ES, Jirachi, would take this amount from +6 ES: 56.59 - 66.86%. I think you get the point... So the only way to go is with only Bullet Punch as priority, and maybe Mach Punch too, meaning that a whole lot of offensive Pokemon would be able to revenge kill us, such as Starmie, Jirachi, Keldeo, Ice Shard Weavile, and any Landorus-T and Thundurus-T variant. So as we can see, the CAP will still be able to be checked pretty well by offensive teams. So let's take a look at its supposed defensive checks, Jirachi, Skarmory, Heatran, and Magnezone. I will use the strongest attack that the CAP will probably get, which is Flying Gem Acrobatics. Here are the calcs of a +6 Adamant 132 Atk CAP using Flying Gem Acrobatics vs all those Pokemon:
    • vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 569-669 (147.79 - 173.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 598-704 (148.01 - 174.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 265-312 (81.79 - 96.29%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 339-399 (103.66 - 122.01%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    As we can see the CAP can OHKO every single Pokemon in OU at +6 with just Acrobatics, making coverage moves completely uneeded. This is not to say that it would be too much to handle, as it would kill one Pokemon at best before getting revenge killed by the plethora of offensive Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO it. But without coverage moves, how is the CAP supposed to run a Life Orb or a CB set instead of Belly Drum? Coverage is not needed when you have 132 Atk and you intend to sweep at +6 so the CAP would need zero coverage moves. I hope that nobody in their right minds here thinks that a CB or LO set with only Steel + Flying coverage would be actually good in OU, especially with no Flying move stronger than 80 BP (Drill Peck). A ton of common Pokemon would be able to counter LO/CB cap, such as Heatran, Skarmory, Rotom-W, Jirachi, and Magnezone, and it would still be slow as fuck to act as a proper revenge killer. It would be just a horrible and outclassed CB/LO attacker.

    As for the other spreads, namely 111/110, 113/105, and 118/100, Korski seems to be under the assumption that those stats alone are good enough to create a good LO/CB attacker, or at least better than the BD sweeper that we are trying to make. I want to remind to everyone that we are talking about a CB/LO attacker with its strongest STABs of 80 BP, Iron Head and Drill Peck mainly (yeah Meteor Mash would be stupid to give to a Pokemon that doesn't need it for any OHKO at +6 and only encourages CB/LO items, while also having bad accuracy to be used on a sweeper, and i think i don't even need to explain why Brave Bird will never make it to the CAP's movepool). Coverage or not, this is not the recipe of success for offensive Pokemon. Offensive Pokemon with similar attacking stats and Speed to the spreads that Korski mentioned (Infernape with 104 Atk /108 Spe, Jolteon with 110 SpA / 130 Spe, Latias with 110 SpA / 130 Spe, and Starmie with 100 SpA / 115 Spe) need high BP STAB moves, otherwise their Speed + power combo means nothing. Infernape has two STABs of 120 BP (CC and Fire Blast) that both have incredible offensive coverage, Jolteon is always used on rain teams to take advantage of 100% accurate Thunders, which you guessed it right have 120 BP, Latias uses a 140 BP move with the second best offensive typing in the game, and Starmie also has a STAB move with 120 BP and very good neutral coverage.

    The moral of the story? Power + Speed means nothing if you don't have the necessary STAB moves to make it work and the CAP won't for reasons already explained, so the speedy spreads that Korski mentioned won't be any issue at all and surely won't outclass its BD set.

    People are too busy getting distracted by fancy stat spreads, and forget that movepool matters as much, if not more, and we are the ones who control it, together with the TLs of course. This means that even if the community is too stupid to not vote for undesirable and anti-concept moves such as Brave Bird and possibly Meteor Mash (if we go with too much Speed) then the TL surely will so there is nothing to be afraid of. Just remember that if the CAP chooses to go the LO/CB route, Drill Peck and Iron Head will be its strongest STABs and any worry you had before of the BD set getting outshined will be gone.

    As for our limits for ST, here are some calcs that will hopefully help us determine them:
    • 0 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory in rain: 117-140 (41.63 - 49.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    70 HP / 75 SpD was used for this calc, and with similar stat spreads, such as 78 / 70 and 90 / 65 we get an approximate ST of ~105. I think that this calc is very important, as the CAP naturally resists Garchomp's STABs, and it should be able to setup on Fire Blast variants with the proper support. Garchomp can get around the CAP with Fire Blast, and the CAP should be able to get around this by having Politoed as a teammate. And Garchomp still wouldn't be completely helpless, as Fire Blast would do enough damage to the CAP so that it can't setup if it has taken SR damage or when it attacks Garchomp thanks to Rough Skin, as long as the CAP doesn't have Sitrus. So basically, i think that we should allow the CAP to have the ability to setup on Fire Blast Garchomp, but under two conditions, it holds Sitrus Berry and rain is up.

    Now let's take a look at another calc:
    • 4 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory in rain: 118-140 (41.99 - 49.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Coincidentally, the only other physical Dragon-type in OU that uses special Fire moves does the same damage as LO Garchomp while not holding LO, meaning either Lum Berry (DD set) or Choice Scarf. So, actually with one stone we kill two birds as by making 105 our ST lowest limit we ensure that the CAP will be able to setup on those two Pokemon under rain and without SR up (and with Sitrus Berry in Garchomp's case). Having this option would be a very good thing for the CAP as those two Pokemon, especially Garchomp, tend to be very versatile and sometimes hard to identify their whole moveset, limiting the CAP's ability to setup on them. As for the upper ST limit, i don't have any good suggestion for now so i am waiting for someone else to post something that makes sense. And please people, post solid explanations when wanting to support a certain limit and not just generic talk of ''more than this would be too much bulk for a sweeper'' or stuff like that. Calcs and talk about specific threats is much more useful for the purpose of this thread and to convince the crowd too.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
  17. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    DLC just brought it up, but I've also been wanting to mention that we need to be particularly mindful of the Build Triangle, now that we are getting into serious stats discussions. For those of you that don't follow CAP Policy Review, I highly suggest you read the OP and the conclusion of this thread:


    We intentionally do not have objective measurements for the three aspects of the Build, but we all know the general impact of our decisions on the Build as we go along. I think we really need to start discussing tradeoffs on CAP6, because several comments in this thread have me a little fearful that some people are overtly pushing for this CAP to have "everything" -- which is exactly what the Build Triangle policy was established to prevent!

    I think some people feel that Belly Drum is such a difficult move that no pokemon to date has been sufficiently fast, powerful, and bulky to pull it off -- therefore we need to make a pokemon that has all three, if we intend to make a successful Belly Drummer. I am NOT in that camp, and no one else should be either. I am openly of the opinion that CAP6 needs to be a very good pokemon to pull off a Belly Drum, because Belly Drum introduces a LOT of problems for a pokemon in battle. However, I don't think we need to make this pokemon a good Belly Drummer through "brute force", ie. give it everything in terms of Build. At the end of this project we have Fast, Powerful, and Bulky -- and we only get TWO, not all three.

    With all that said, I think it is a foregone conclusion that this pokemon is Bulky. Hell, I could argue we are headed towards Very Bulky (see the PR thread if you don't know what that term means) if we keep the current course. We gave CAP6 extremely good defensive typing, and then we piled onto it with one of the best defensive abilities in the game. Unless we nerf the shit out of this pokemon's defensive stats, then this pokemon is Bulky pretty much by default. If we also give this a normal good OU defensive stat line, I could argue that we'll have a Very Bulky pokemon on our hands. If we do that, I think we have a real problem with regards to the Build Triangle, because we almost certainly need this to be Fast OR Powerful as well.

    I'm not planning on nitpicking on the gray area between Bulky and Very Bulky just to be an asshole about CAP policy. Ignore the policy itself and think about the general implications of the Build. If we make a pokemon that most intelligent players think fits the bill of a "very bulky" pokemon -- do you think they will bother Belly Drumming with it? Hell no they won't. They'll use it to wall stuff. So even without the Build Triangle policy in place, we still should be avoiding going too far with the bulk on this mon. And remember we've already gone very far with the Bulky aspects of this pokemon by virtue of typing and primary ability. I can't see how we can put a bulky stat line on this pokemon too, and try to kid ourselves into thinking its not Very Bulky.

    So, since Bulky is a given at this point, and assuming we don't venture into Very Bulky territory, the big question is: Which other aspect do we choose -- Fast or Powerful? We have to make a tradeoff. We don't get both.

    Based on many comments in other threads, it sure seems to me like this pokemon is headed towards being Fast. Perhaps even Very Fast, depending on how you look at it. For one, remember that the current midpoint speed in OU is 90. Many people have been advocating a speed number MUCH higher than that. So based on speed stat alone, we seem headed in the direction of a Fast pokemon currently. But as we discussed in the Build Triangle thread, there is much more to a Build than just stats. When it comes to the Fast aspect of a mon, another huge contributing factor is that priority moves make a pokemon FASTER. So, if we give this pokemon a speed stat way above the midpoint AND we give this pokemon access to priority moves -- we are almost certainly flirting with making a Very Fast pokemon! I'm not saying that we're definitely giving this pokemon priority moves, but many people have mentioned priority moves (STAB priority on top of that) in other threads and I'm sure many people are assuming priority will be part of CAP6.

    If we go there, we may end up with a tag line of "Fast, Powerful, Bulky: Pick FOUR". (ie. Very Bulky and Very Fast)

    Last, but certainly not least, is the Powerful aspect of the triangle. Most people haven't been advocating much higher, but remember that the midpoint Attack/SpAttack stat in OU is 100. Generally, giving access to boosting moves is considered to make a pokemon more Powerful. But in the case of Belly Drum, I do NOT put it in the category of normal boosting moves. So, if anyone else thinks that giving a pokemon Belly Drum makes it inherently Powerful, feel free to make the argument. But unless we give this Swords Dance or something, I'm pretty much assuming that based on typing (which is not great offensively) we are not pushing for a Powerful pokemon. The attack stats being tossed around in this thread still probably need some justification -- because the Build Triangle encourages us to LIMIT the pokemon in at least one aspect. If we put the Attack stat at or near the midpoint, then I can argue we have limited the Powerful aspect of the pokemon because its typing is limited offensively and we don't have access to a bunch of high BP + high accuracy STAB moves. But if we push way above the Attack midpoint, I think it is a tougher case to make that CAP has limited Power.

    I acknowledge the terms of the Build Triangle leave a lot to interpretation. And I'm not actually arguing for any particular Build or stat limits. I just wanted to present an assessment of where I think we currently stand with respect to the Build Triangle, and remind everyone else to be cognizant of it as well.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
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  18. BrianFantana

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    I think this is an important point re: bulk - the physical/special divide. What I want to suggest is that cap6 can have some beefy PT while still falling short of being "very" bulky. This comes from defining bulk as something not inherent to the pokemon, but defined by the metagame around it. Basically, if something is "bulky", what that means in practise is that there are few pokemon that can reasonably threaten it. If it is "frail", there are many.

    If only a small amount of physical threats can kill cap6, it will pass as 'bulky' by default - but if many exist on the special side that decimate it, I feel it would be hard to argue that it is "very bulky", because of the large portion of OU that can kill it. I don't think we should be shy about giving cap6 the PT it needs to ensure its setup opportunities: it becomes bulky, but if its ST is subpar then it isn't a reliable wall. We know that Skarmory succeeds as a wall with mediocre ST, but it has amazing tools that we would be foolish to give cap6 (roost, hazards, phazing).

    Cutting CAP6's bulk down the physical/special line works well with the threatlist; note that many of its setup opportunities are against physical threats, whereas much of what should be able to kill it can threaten it specially (Heatran, Jirachi, Magnezone, Scarf Keldeo, maybe Starmie, maybe Jolteon, etc). Personally I feel that this is the way to give cap6 the targeted bulk it needs to set up - without borking it defensively. (Breloom and Mamoswine are, as noted by others, casualties of the threatlist).

    So I would personally suggest upper limits of, say, 190 for PT and 150 (possibly less) for ST - although as a newer member the specific numbers aren't my strong suit. These numbers are mainly to contextualise the ideas above; to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue for preposterous physical tankiness here.
  19. SoulMuse

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    Hm, I guess I'll try and form a coherent post about ST now, although this is for as much my benifit as anything as I tinker with spreads

    I am going to try and build on Alexwolf's post some, since that seems like a good place to start. I agree that at least 105 ST is needed, personally going to advocate for more, but let's use that as a starting point, for the reasons stated in said post. I also would like to purpose something else that we could potentially set up on. -2 Choice Scarf/Specs Latios, Scarf more than Specs. Using Alexwolf's suggested spread of 70/75 (ST 106.4), we can set up on Choice Specs Latios at -2 easily enough, and thus, even easier on Scarf.

    -2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 109-129 (38.79 - 45.9%) -- 18.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -2 252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 72-86 (25.62 - 30.6%) -- 12.94% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    -2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 127-151 (45.19 - 53.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    As you can see, coming in on Latios after a Draco Meteor is doable with Alexwolf's spread, although we are left with rather low health afterwards. Still, depending on how fast CAP6 is that wouldn't be a problem. Of course, setting up on Life Orb Latios would be somewhat risky.

    Honestly from doing calcs, I don't see any major benefit to adding a whole lot onto ST. By and large, even at a ST of 130, we are still countered and checked by what we want to be countered and checked by. All it does is give us a little more wiggle room as far as how much damage we take from certian attacks, the Latios cals, and Alexswolf's Garchomp and Salamence calcs being prime examples.

    4 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in rain: 106-126 (35.69 - 42.42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Obviously this doesn't really buy us much of anything, but for the sake of putting at upper limit in place on ST, I would say 130. This leaves us easily countered by the things we want to be countered by, weather being left aside for now, but does let us set up on Celebi lacking HP if we so choose. We also can take an non HP Fire Move Celebi sends our way.

    Just some food for thought.
  20. ZhengTann

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    1. I'm sorry, but I don't think it's worth it - I don't think it is even necessary. IMHO, Doug said it well when he said Belly Drum must be the most viable set of CAP6, because otherwise it will have no other ending but to fall by the wayside. Look at Gyarados and Dragonite - both of them barely toed past 180 PS (Gyara even had about 177 PS in this case), but they ended up being perfectly capable running Choice Band / Choice Scarf with one slot being reserved for a BAP 80 move. Of course, they have other strengths helping them (Gyara being in rain or Dnite having the coveted Multiscale, for example) but so does CAP6, in it's own way (by virtue of typing and Intimidate so far). 180 PS allow Attack/Speed spreads (eg. 125/81, 130/80) that, in essence, makes Belly Drum a pale comparison to CB in terms of viability.

    Since movepool is a huge unknown at this stage (who knows if CAP6 gets Outrage or Close Combat? :p ), I do hope we can curb this when we have the next opportunity should we set PS upper limit at 180. But, why not do it now instead of putting it off for later? I'd say that PS upper limit at a range from 165 to 170 is most conducive towards Belly Drum usage, echoing Deck's assessment.

    2. I should probably go far to say "none on it's own". Granted, it should take on resisted or weak Special Attacks without being 2HKOed at full health (eg. Celebi's Giga Drain, defensive Tentacruel's Scald without Rain), which is what most offensive Pokemon should be able to do (Heatran is capable of tanking even Scarf Latios' Surf, as inadvisable as it is to do so :p ). But, it shouldn't be able to stomach powerful STABs such as LO Latios DM or Rotom-W Hydro Pump without taking more than 50% damage under any situation - otherwise why would I shave off 50% of CAP6's HP just to Belly Drum when I can use it to tank Latios' DM? Given that we had Intimidate, my personal goal would be to take SR damage and reduce ourselves to less than half-life on a -1 resisted Physical attack, then proceed to sweep while being untouchable. Since my personal take is being "untouchable", I doubt very much it should be achieved via bulk instead of speed. Having "Untouchable" bulk screams wall, not BD sweep, right? :) So I'm of the opinion that ST upper limit at 140 to 150 is good enough to achieve what I've underlined above.

    Aside from the attempts to answer DLC's questions, I'm also going to piggyback on Deck and Korski that 300 BSR is decent - it is low enough that it's nigh on impossible to come close to limits on even 2 out of the 4 other parameters suggested in the thread, not without having, as Korski puts it, "stupid low SpA stats".
  21. Nyktos

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    The argument that a higher PS is bad for the concept because it might make a Choice Band set usable is a very silly one. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Choice Band set existing. If Belly Drum is a bad set, the way to make it viable is not to make every other set worse. All that accomplishes is turning CAP 6 into a bad Pokémon with no usable sets. The way to make Belly Drum viable is to make Belly Drum good. If it's legitimately good, it really doesn't make a difference if choice sets are also usable. In fact we specifically decided in Concept Assessment that we were okay with it having other viable sets. That doesn't mean we should be intentionally helping non-BD sets, but trying to stamp them out is not necessary, and is actively bad for the project if doing so makes BD sets worse in the process as some of the lower limits potentially do.

    I'm not going to advocate a sky-high PS limit, because Belly Drum doesn't need it, and we should only do what's necessary. What I would like to is see a PS limit of at least 175. With an Attack stat in the low-to-mid 90s (which I would consider enough), 175 allows for essentially any Speed stat, thus allowing submitters to choose whatever benchmark they may like. (I personally don't think outspeeding Jolteon is especially useful, but Speed increases the sweepiness so little after 110 or so that it would be difficult to allow ~115 spreads without allowing the >130 ones by taking one point of Attack away anyway.) 175 is also nice in that it's the top of one of the rating categories. I don't like a limit substantially higher than that, as that allows Attack / Speed combinations that start to move into "Fast and Powerful" territory, and I haven't seen anything to really suggest that it's actually useful for a Belly Drum set to have that much Attack.
  22. DetroitLolcat

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    Okay, we're starting to advance towards the end of this discussion, as total BSR and Special Tankiness are the only two metrics that haven't had some great discussion so far. My current interpretations of consensus are a 180 limit on Physical Sweepiness. I don't expect many spreads to ride this limit, but there is definitely a case to be made for higher Attack or Speed since our STABs are so unappealing as Choiced attacks.

    I believe in a limit of 185 for Physical Tankiness as well; calculations above demonstrate that CAP6 could require a lot of bulk in order to fend off attacks that it resists. I do not expect 185 to be the standard for CAP6's PT, but in my opinion it is the upper limit on acceptable Physical bulk. This allows for a 104/100 HP/Defense spread or a 120/92 spread. This upper limit is enough avoid a 2HKO from CB Garchomp's Outrage without Intimidate and to avoid a 2HKO from CB Garchomp's Fire Fang. CAP6 cannot take any Stealth Rock damage if it wants to avoid these KOs. A limit of 185 rewards the CAP6 user from keeping Stealth Rock off its side of the field. Even if the 185 limit is not ridden, the calculations that Base Speed posted demonstrate that CAP6 can withstand many attacks without getting close to 185 Physical Tankiness.

    Here are some relevant calculations assuming a 120/92 spread:

    -1 252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 154-182 (40.41 - 47.76%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 157-186 (41.2 - 48.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 141-166 (37 - 43.56%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    -1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 141-166 (37 - 43.56%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 138-164 (36.22 - 43.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    What these calculations show is that with enough Physical Tankiness, we can greatly reward CAP6's user for keeping Stealth Rock off the field.

    Now, to discourage CAP6 from becoming too pivot-like with this limit, I believe we need a stringent BSR limit of about 310, possibly 315. If CAP6 wants to outspeed the Base 108 tier and maximize its Physical Tankiness, it will not be able to run a decent Attack stat. A limit of 310 means that if CAP6 would like to run a Base 92 Attack and maximize its Physical Tankiness, it cannot outrun even Base 100 Speed Pokemon. If CAP6 would like base 121 Speed, it would have to take either a large hit to its HP and Defense or Attack to stay under 310. I don't want to railroad the Stat Spread Submissions by posting samples, but a little tinkering with a 310 limit shows that we're not going to be riding all of these proposed limits and stay near 310.

    In terms of Special Tankiness, -2 Draco Meteor seems to be the hot-button move we would like to take. With a limit of 136, CAP6 can take less than 37.5% from any -2 Draco Meteor in the tier. We chose the Steel type for its resistances, and neglecting the Dragon resistance seems irresponsible. CAP6 can also take Specially Defensive Heatran's Lava Plume 100% of the time with no Stealth Rock down and a limit of 136, but can never take the attack with Stealth Rock down. The same goes for defensive Tentacruel's Scald in Rain.

    Calculations:
    0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in rain: 128-152 (38.67 - 45.92%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA Tentacruel Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in rain: 130-154 (39.27 - 46.52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    -2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 103-122 (31.11 - 36.85%) -- 76.1% chance to 3HKO

    I believe in a limit of 140 for Special Tankiness, but I also believe 145 may be more useful for taking Scalds if we would like to.

    Current Proposed Limits:

    180 PS

    180-185 PT

    130 SS

    140-145 ST

    310-315 BSR

    Items to Discuss:

    1. The temporary limits I have proposed. Please evaluate my arguments for the proposed limits, as they will most likely be adjusted to fit the community consensus in 24 hours.


    This is also a 24 Hour Warning for the thread. This thread closes at 2 AM EDT on Saturday, August 31, 2013.
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  23. alexwolf

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    I am fine with all the limits of DLC (185 PT, 130 SS, 145 ST, and 315 BSR), although i would like a small raise on the upper PS limit from 180 to 185. With 185 PS, the CAP can outspeed Lati@s by using 111 Speed but can't even get close to OHKO it, even after two SR switch-ins, with Iron Head or Drill Peck, assuming 102 Atk, which would be the maximum allowed for 111 Speed with that limit. Here is the calc:

    Base 102 Atk 252 Atk Choice Band Skarmory Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 199-235 (66.11 - 78.07%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  24. SoulMuse

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    All the limits look good, and I personally have nothing against Alexwolf's proposed PS change.
  25. srk1214

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    I've been really incommunicado, but I just wanted to post to support these limits. Personally, I'd edge on the lower side of the limits but I can imagine the upper ones would work just as well.
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