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Discussion in 'CAP Metagame' started by Vryheid, Apr 19, 2014.
I can confirm at least the SR immunity works.
Persistent works with trick room.
responses to this thread:
fair enough, sylveon is common enough in the tier that I think a rank boost is justified. and I've seen you use it well enough that you know what you're talking about here
Quagsire isn't weak to Psychic/Flying, which in the flying/psychic infested CAP metagame is a huge deal. Unaware mons are great in general but Quagsire is better at walling Mons like Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, and Cawmodore, for that reason it's listed where it is. Scald is also a nice move that Argh wishes it has. Since Jas tends to use Quag a lot I'd be interested in his opinion on the mon in CAP.
The A tier Pokemon tend to be threats on every single team they're used on, and have a very specific niche no other Pokemon fill well. This really isn't the case with Kitsunoh- it doesn't hit hard enough to replace something like Latios as a dedicated revenge killer, it's outclassed by Aegislash as a bulky Steel/Ghost type, it doesn't have a reliable fire type move (so it can't even check Cawmodore well), and it leads to Colossoil traps where you have to play a guessing game between an incoming Knock Off or Earthquake. That 103 attack stat is another issue, as it really needs more power to make use of it's already weak coverage moves. As it stands, the Scarf set can't even OHKO Garchomp with Ice Punch:
252 Atk Kitsunoh Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 292-348 (81.5 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If it had something like 125 Attack and access to Fire Punch I might agree that it deserves A tier, but as it stands it has a more niche use that can only be used to it's full potential with support from other pivots like Colossoil. Kitsunoh is excellent as a scout, check to Kyurem-B/Aurumoth/Fairies, and for momentum control, but it's definitely not one of the "flagship" CAP Pokemon that can singlehandedly improve the effectiveness of teams without any support.
As for the fairies... I agree they're not perfect, and Tomohawk does have ways to prevent them from setting up, but they're still some of the most reliable switchins to standard defensive CAP cores (think Tomohawk/Cyclohm/Colossoil). This gives them an invaluable niche on offensive teams.
Prankster Haze/Reflect Tomo (my current favorite set) actually hard counters Cawmodore, and there's no chance Cawmodore can ever set up on it if it's already out due to it's inability to tank multiple Aura Spheres. Gardevoir is extremely easy to wall and takes a huge amount of damage on the switchin from Hurricane if Tomo is using it. The only consistently reliable switchins to Tomohawk are Krilowatt and bulky Fairy types. Everything else tends to get heavily crippled by a specific set.
As for Cawmodore I think you're overestimating it's capabilities. The standard Jolly set cannot 2HKO max def Cyclohm with any moves bar rare coverage moves such as Knock Off or Return, and even then gets either phazed out or smashed by Fire Blast before it can land a second hit. Cyclohm doesn't even have to risk a miss to beat it, simply spamming Slack Off until Cawmodore gets paralyzed by Static is enough to render the metal bird deadweight. Arghonaut doesn't have to kill Cawmodore, just Roar it out- without that extra Sitrus Berry health, it's never going to get another chance to set up. Cawmodore in general is something that tends to wreck newer players but requires a lot of support to accomplish anything against experienced players using proper balanced teams.
I have to disagree with the comparison of Necturna to Charizard for the main reason that the "moveset surprise factor" is severely limited in a tier where there simply are not enough players to reliably catch people off guard on a regular basis. And while it can do a lot of things well, it can rarely do multiple things well at the same time- it can be a good hazard layer with Sticky Web, a good lead with Spore, or a sweeper with Shell Smash, but it can almost never do multiple team roles well. It doesn't help that it tends to have rather poor matchups against some of the most common CAP Pokemon- Tomohawk and Cyclohm can wall both special and physical sets while hitting it with super effective moves, and Colossoil just wrecks it with Sucker Punch. Necturna is something I think would be a hell of a lot more dangerous in a tournament setting when you're revealing a team for the first time- but on the ladder, I just don't think it's quite on Tomohawk's level.
Arghonaut's enormous niche over Quagsire and Clefable is access to Roar, which is absolutely huge in a meta where Tail Glow Aurumoth and Belly Drum Cawmodore can threaten to plow through teams. Even if Arghonaut cannot outright beat something it switches into, it's incredibly hard to OHKO (the physically bulky set can take a Brave Bird from Choice Band Talonflame) and can just phase it out for another chance for an offensive team to sweep. As a one-stop pivot and emergency check to practically every sweeper in existence, I think Arghonaut can't be beat.
Since so many CAPmons get demolished by Talonflame and since Cyclohm utterly and totally walls every conceivable set far better than Wash Rotom ever could, that alone is enough to justify it's high usage rate in the tier. But being able to stop Cawmodore, Mega Charizard Y (yes, it can do this), Mega Pinsir (with Shuca berry), Keldeo, Scizor, and many other sweepers in their tracks just increases it's ability to solidify teams looking for a reliable bulky pivot and supporter. It can even take on Tomohawk relatively reliably, something every team usually needs multiple checks for. I did not include this in the analysis but Cylcohm is likely going to be one of the best counters to the upcoming CAP 18 due to it's massive bulk, STAB electric moves and resistance to Fire/Water attacks. This heavily depends on what moves CAP 18 is going to get but it is something relevant to consider.
Pyroak, despite being practically universally ignored by the top ranked CAP players, is still an extremely popular Pokemon for a LOT of newer players and has a ton of bulk and useful support moves such as Will-o-wisp and Stealth Rock to work with. I'm rather hesitant to knock it down several ranks without seeing if other players have managed to use it well and what Pokemon tend to check/counter it reliably. Keep in mind that Cyclohm was generally looked at as one of the worst CAPmons at the beginning of Gen 6 CAP until we started experimenting with physically bulky sets (which had already existed to some degree since it's first creation, but were considered more of a gimmick than its primary use). There may be some hidden potential to Pyroak that we're just not seeing yet.
I do agree with you on Fidgit though, it tends to be so outclassed by the likes of Mollux and Skarmory as a hazard user that without some crazy new Trick Room tech coming into play it's very hard to justify using it. Even if you want fast hazards, Deoxys Speed tends to outclass it entirely. Since Fidgit has been heavily debated in the CAP room already and the general consensus is that it isn't very good, I'm going to move it down to C Rank for the time being.
wow so Persistent actually works now? when the hell did this happen, cause it sure wasn't working when I tested it earlier this month
A couple questions for other posters in this thread:
-What do you think about the viability of Pyroak as an offensive sweeper? A bulky pivot/hazard setter?
-How does it compare to other bulky grass types such as Venusaur and Ferrothorn?
it is ok but many grass types outshine it(ferrothorn because of Iron barbs, cradily because of better recovery, trevenant because of its ability to use ghost curse well, whimsicot because prankster etc)
Pyroak is actually interesting. A month or so ago I made a team filled with the "Crap Capmons" as a joke. That fact that Pyroak was on such a joke team doesn't inspire confidence too much, however.
As an offensive sweeper, Pyroak's most obvious and threatening set is probably Swords Dance with rock head and recoil STAB moves. I personally ran substitute as my fourth move, but it ended up being filler more than anything else (stealth rock might have been better in hindsight). The main issue, however, is that as an offensive sweeper, Pyroak's arguably best option is to set up for boosts. As we all should realize, however, there are much better Pokemon in terms of being a set up sweeper. Caw, Rev, and even Necturna all completely outclass Pyroak. Sure, he has some niche role in being immune to burn, spore moves, and leech seed, but just needing to set up really hurts him in my opinion. He might actually be able to beat some of his fellow grass types like Ferrothorn, but then even from Venusaur he often takes too much from sludge bomb.
Anyway, there's my two cents about Pyroak.
I feel that Pyroak has a fairly decent possible niche. Very few things are immune to both Will-o-Wisp AND Leech Seed (mainly being Pyroak itself, Magic Bounce Pokemon and Magic Guard Pokemon), which allows it to easily spread burns and drain HP. Additionally, it is immune to both of these so a Magic Bounce or Rebound switch in won't affect Pyroak too badly. Access to SR can help this a bit by hitting Fire types (immune to WoW) and Flying types (very threatening to Pyroak) for a sizable chunk of their HP on the switch. It also has access to Aromatherapy to heal off any Poison it may get hit by or Block to trap the opponent into the WoW/Leech Seed damage. If EVs are focused into Def and SpDef instead of into HP, it can greatly increase the effective recovered bulk from Leech Seed. It also has Giga Drain, Light Screen, Protect, Synthesis, Toxic, Roar, RestTalk and Counter to choose from, giving it a rather diverse pool of options for negating an opponent's momentum.
For the offensive side, the obvious choice is Swords Dance/Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz with Rock Head for high power moves with no real drawback. The three main Unaware users are either weak to (Arghonaut), extremely weak to (Quagsire) or walled by (Clefairy) Pyroak, so they can't really switch in to ruin the momentum. The main walls to this set are Fire types and Dragon types, MegazardX taking virtually nothing from STABS. For at least the Fire types, this can be helped by Rock Slide or Stealth Rock. There is also the option of a Special or Mixed set using Growth, preferably in the sun. It gives us access to Giga Drain, Energy Ball, Solar Beam and a shit ton of Fire moves. It also has coverage options such as Earth Power and Ancientpower or it can draw on its many non damaging options to give it greatly added bulk.
Also, there's the combo of Sweet Scent and Zap Cannon, sooo...
Ugh.... like, I hate talking about Pyroak, but I just can't not. Its status spreading or whatever is OK, but physical Pryoak is just awful and you should feel bad for using it. Yeah, it has 120 base power attacks with no downside. It also has 70 Attack. 70. That's offensive power as things like Dusclops, Cresselia, Riolu and Mudkip. Or, in other words, no power whatsoever. Its far too slow to sweep. Even if it gets set up with an SD, it is still weak, and easily forced out. And it is weak to hazards so getting forced out is awful. If it is not subseeding to negate this switch damage, it is not doing anything. As I'm sure a lot of people know, Electivire was a Pokemon that got made fun of a lot in gen IV (well, still does) because people used it even when it was bad. The reason there is that the words "Its Super Effective" were so shiny, that people would use it so see them, even when its attacks still hit for crap damage. Its similar here. People see the shiny 120 BP moves with no downside and use them. But the fact is they hit for crap damage. Even more crap than the damage said Electivire was doing. There is absolutely nothing good about physical Pyroak, and the fact that it gets so much usage makes me cry every month when I see the usage stats.
The only obvious choice offensively for it is Lava Plume, as anything else is wasting what little potential it has. If it is not spreading burns and leeching damage, it is failing miserably. But then, it usually fails miserably even then. Seriously. Save yourself (and the ladder statistics) and stop using Pyroak. And if you must, use SubSeedPlume.
But just don't. It will be better for you.
As mentioned in the analysis, SubSeed Pyroark is one of the best Leech Seeders in the game due to its ability to beat the grass types that are immune to it (bar Mega-Venu). Mega-Venu is also a good Leech Seeder for the same reason (Poison STAB). I personally would never use Pyroark due to Rock and Flying type moves being everywhere (Stealth Rock, Talonflame, Mega-Pinsir, Cawdomore, Strategem etc.) I wouldn't reccomend you use it due to its typing, weak to Rock and Flying is just not fun.
I dont see why you are using Hurricane because that move is simply awful outside of the rain. Gardevoir is not as easy to wall as you think too, it goes through substitute, and Gardevoir is not easily walled by Tomohawk
Hyper Voice on Tomohawk with positive SDef nature (Without it its guaranteed)
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Abomasnow: 380-450 (91.7 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Tomohawk needs Light Screen just to be able to take a hit from Mega Gardevoir, that does not sound like an easy pokemon to wall, and the fact that it can Taunt it with max speed + trace + timid (Which IMO would any sane person do) taunt it preety much makes it a great check and a good counter for it
I'm not saying its a bad pokemon, I'm saying that its not the prodigy you and other players view it as.
Its Analysis was written during the time of gen 4, and yeah I also dont see much use for Pyroark, I dont see how a Will-O Wisp immunity helps it out, espically during an era where Poison is more common
IMO Pyroark is a better SubSeeder than Trevenant... Still Outclassed by Mega-Saur though, so unless your Mega Slot is used up I would suggest just using Mega-Venusaur.
The problem is that the other player will immediately switch in either Heatran or Chansey, who wall it to death as it accomplishes absolutely nothing and gradually dies to status and hazard damage. No recovery is a huge strike against it in a metagame that is full of bulky offensive threats that can heal over and over, and it's mediocre coverage basically turns it into total deadweight against stall cores. It's so pitiful on the physical side that it can't even take on Revenankh reliably, as it get 2HKOd by Shadow Sneak if it comes in on a Bulk Up boost. Sucker Punch from Colossoil OHKOs it, and Kitsunoh can use it as easy U-turn bait. It has neither the power nor the speed to reliably stop threats like Stratagem or Syclant, even if it manages to tank a few hits. So what's the point of using it? Just dedicating a mega slot to specifically deal with Tomohawk? Fair enough, but I'd rather use a threat like Clefable, Cyclohm or Krilowatt that can actually repeatedly tank Hurricanes and serves a multitude of other roles on teams.
In a Gen 6 metagame that's physically biased to the extreme, using an example of a specially offensive counter to demonstrate it's lack of "worth" is not very helpful. The ability to shut down nearly every physical attacker in the game is incredibly useful and is part of the reason why Garchomp and Bisharp aren't wiping out CAP teams left and right. Even Kyurem B utterly fails against Reflect Tomo if it attempts to beat it down with Banded Outrage or Fusion Bolt- exactly how many other physical walls can claim that? It can easily maintain momentum and pass Subs thanks to Baton Pass, it can get Stealth Rock down reliably without fear of Rebound switchins, and it can use Taunt to stop Smeargle setups and guarantee beating Blissey in a 1v1. It's also one of the best answers to Revenankh, who is otherwise nigh unstoppable after 3-4 Bulk Up boosts. What else can handle so many threats and have so much utility in the meta?
Comments in bold
If Colossoil is dumb enough to switch in on a Tomohawk, it deserves the Aura Sphere to the face.
Thats very true, I'm just saying it can happen
Krill gets utterly wrecked by physical sweepers like Mega Charizard X, Tyranitar, Revenankh, Pyroak, Necturna, Conkeldurr, Volt Absorb Cawmodore, and the previously mentioned Kyurem-B. Chansey walls it to hell and back and it's not like you can just recover off the Seismic Toss damage. Choice Scarf Garchomp and Landorus threaten to OHKO it unless it's heavily invested in bulk. It can't even beat bulky Colossoil 1v1 despite being faster and having a super effective Surf because of how poor it's special attack stat is. And that's just the physical attackers it can't beat 1v1- good luck trying to switch into a Keldeo, Mega Medicham, or practically any hard hitting physical attack it doesn't resist and not getting 2HKOed in the process.
Tomohawk can act as a deterrent to all of those above threats, and many special attackers as well, and can consistently build momentum by getting up screens or hazards in the process. Practically no other Pokemon in the tier- or in OU- can do this so well. Most Pokemon can either counter threats or build momentum but rarely both. The fact that it can do so again and again thanks to it's immunity to most hazards and access to two healing abilities is icing on the cake.
JS Krill with Heart Swap Beats Revenankh. Steals its Bulk Up and Trolls it hard.
I switch in Colossoil against tomahawks when I know they are using taunt. I've never been aura sphered to the face, so it's not a bad idea, if u can predict.
So can the Tomohawk user. In the end, it's a 50/50 guess, except if you mispredict you lose a pokemon. Definitely not worth the risk in most scenarios.
That makes Syclant a lot better, possible pivot and works well with Volcarona/Charizard/Talonflame
Colossoil CAN switch in and rebound rocks if you've got perfect prediction, but the risks do run a little high. The problem, however, is that even if Colossoil CAN block rocks, that hardly makes him a great switch-in. Great, you rebounded Tomo's hazard. You also just switched a mon into a STRAIGHT UP hard counter. Barring ideal circumstances, there's pretty much nothing that Colossoil can do to Tomo once it's switched in, including preventing him from just hitting rocks AGAIN. Momentum is thoroughly on the side of the Tomo player, and you're still making reactionary plays.
Which, in a nutshell, is what makes Tomo S-Rank (and please note, S-rank doesn't mean it's uncounterable. It means it's a metagame-shaping force that forces every team to adapt and plan for it). Tomohawk's concept was Momentum Grabber and it succeeds at that WILDLY. Much like Chansey, it simply shuts down an entire subset of sweepers, making it impossible for your opponent to really gain any kind of traction on that front. If Tomo's healthy on your opponents team, you're going to have a VERY hard time getting any physical sweeper going. It also provides a BOATLOAD of support along with that, and has an incredible ability supported by a ludicrous movepool, most of which is frankly viable. Can special sweepers beat it? Well, they can switch in on it. But it's huge support movepool means that it can use all those free turns to do basically whatever it wants BEYOND walling half a metagame. Hazards, screens, hazard removal, status, the list is practically endless. And no, it can't do all this at once. But it doesn't really have to. It just has to fill whatever role you need filled.
Tomo's like salt in the hands of a good chef: versatile, effective, enhances the players around it without taking enter stage, and probably used in almost every meal.
Did people just imply that Chansey and Heatran wall Mega Gardevoir? Regular Gardevoir can literally shut Heatran down by Tracing Flash Fire and Taunting it, then 2HKOing it with Focus Blast. Mega Gardevoir breaks even against Chansey if it's running Taunt. Gardevoir 3HKOs Chansey over 95% of the time with Psyshock, is faster than Chansey, and can Taunt Chansey so it can only use Seismic Toss. Chansey can win 1-on-1, but regardless Chansey will come out of the situation with very low health and Taunted. Mega Gardevoir should be an A- level Pokemon in my opinion, it's practically tailor-made for the CAP meta. Just look how it does against the top Pokemon in the current Viability Rankings:
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 552-650 (133.3 - 157%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 198-234 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aurumoth: 346-408 (95.5 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Colossoil: 600-708 (147 - 173.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cyclohm: 408-482 (97.1 - 114.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Mega Gardevoir is faster than Aurumoth, Colossoil, and Tomohawk, and it OHKOs all of them more often than not if Stealth Rock is down. It breaks even against Chansey while crushing Mollux and Cyclohm with its STABs. Mega Gardevoir beats Krilowatt one-on-one (Hyper Voice 2HKOs while Thunderbolt fails to 2HKO). It can occasionally 2HKO 4/0 Kitsunoh, although ShadowStrike obviously OHKOs back. Mega Gardevoir might be one of the best wallbreakers in the tier since so many CAPs are Fighting or Dark-type and have just under base 100 Speed. This set is terrifying in the OU meta, and should only be even better in the CAP meta:
Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
- Hyper Voice
- Focus Blast
Seconding DLC's post about Gardevoir --> A-
Mega Gardevoir simply destroys a ton of the best mons in the meta. While a few can take it out one on one, not very much that is popular like switching into it. Only really Aegislash can switch in without worry out of the current A guys. Personally, I've been using HP Fire on mine, rather than Focus Blast just for such a scenario. Aegis still wins if its at decent helth, but it makes its life harder. It also takes out Cawmodore more reliably, which is never bad. The downside is obviously an inability to hit Heatran, but that is not the end of the world, especially when most of the meta is sent running.
Also, since I mentioned it, let me just say that Aegislash needs to get up to at least A+. There is honestly not that much different for it from OU, where it is one of the best Pokemon in existance. It can beat a Cawmodore lacking Knock Off easily, destroys almost any Aurumoth, and comes out ahead against most CAP mons. Colossoil can be some trouble, but it is no worse than Bisharp, and a lot more predictable, since it almost has to go EQ turn one to avoid the KS on a Knock Off. Sure, it is not beating everything in the game, but it is just as good, if not better than OU, and anything less than A+ just seems ridiculous to me. Crumbler just crumbles the meta.
Well we can expect Aegislash to drop in viability after Volkraken comes in.
what does taunt do to heatran? seriously I am confused call me a noob but I run heatran like this
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
Flash Fire, Substitute, Stealth Rock, Roar, Will-o-Wisp, etc. Heatran has a lot of NAM options to run and most Heatran tend to use them.