Chandelure and DW tier

[MaestroXXVI]

Skarmory runs Shed Shell so it can escape Magnezone's Magnet Pull, and Magnezone isn't really threatening to any non-Steel type. Chandelure can actually threaten Pokemon that aren't Steel-types.

Also, try running a Shed Shell on, let's say, Chansey. How the fuck are you going to take hits now?

Which only implies that Chendelure is simply the same kind of threat as Magnezone, not that it's broken. The question is, how good is too good?

By running Blissey. I didn't see any Chansey in OU from gen 2 to 4, because it was strictly outclassed by its evolution. In a metagame where walls need to either beat Chandy 1-on-1 or run Shed Shell, Chansey won't be able to do either, and will fall back to UU.

I've been playing DW and right now will tell you Chandelure is the BEST poke in the whole meta. No, not soul dew latios or latias. Chandy can revenge those too; from experience unboosted shadow ball can 2HKO both of them. Choiced pokes are basically nonviable, and many slower users weak to Chandy's attacks are essentially screwed. Wobb was Uber last gen just because of Shadow Tag; Chandy has a viable movepool, good stats, and Shadow Tag.

Also, people arguing to put shed shell on walls is kind of dumb; as lucarioarkz said are you really going to put shed shell on chansey and other walls? Especially walls like SpD tran without recovery; they NEED the leftovers bonus every turn. Don't compare this to normal OU, because if Shadow Tag Chandelure was released in Normal OU, I guarantee the very next suspect test would ban him.

All you're telling me is that Chandy is the reason some pokemon can't be used in OU. Does that mean he's broken?

Also, for the longest time the Dream World section of Ferrothorn's article suggested that, even though Ferro got nothing form the Dream World, it should run Shed Shell when DW Chandy got released.

I'm not denying it's a threat. I'm not doubting that it's the best poke in DW. But if you're not prepared to stop a threat, it can sweep you. That goes for anything.

Then again, if it is like Excadrill in that it does put an unnecessary strain on the metagame, I'm all for banning it.

 

[Jimera0]

Alright first things first: I don't play DW OU, so I can't comment from experience. I can however, comment on some of the points other people have made.

First, the shed shell argument. I've seen those saying that it's not a good argument pointing to Skarmory and Magnezone as an example of how one poke forcing another to use Shed Shell isn't that bad. This is bull for multiple reasons:

1. Skarmory is not forced to run Shed Shell since unlike Chandy in DW OU (from what I hear), Magnezone isn't run on every second team. Skarmory can be perfectly viable without shed shell, especially since the advent of team preview. It's simply an insurance policy. It's not a necessity.
2. That's one pokemon as opposed to DOZENS that are required to switch their item based on ONE THREAT. While Magnezone can indeed trap Pokemon other than Skarmory, how many others regularly run Shed Shell or U-Turn/Volt-Switch to beat it? Forretress and Ferrothorn maybe? That doesn't compare to every last wall in the game for Chandy.
3. Magnezone is a stupid comparison from Chandelure. It can't trap and take out a quarter as many Pokemon as Chandelure can, nor can its best set up to sweep option (Charge beam substitute) devastate teams like Chandalure's Sub CM can. Comparing the two is laughable. It's like arguing that Garchomp isn't broken because Flygon isn't broken. Yeah they have similarities, but they're in entirely different leagues. If you're going to argue that Chandy isn't broken, don't do it by comparing it to Magnezone.

For me, the sheer amount of usage it seems Chandy gets is enough to show it's ridiculously broken. Someone in this thread threw out a number of somthing like 45% on PO's server before it got banned. Even if that number is off by 10 percentage points that's still utterly insane, and it means that not only is the damn thing overpowered, but that it can fit onto almost any team. Given the number of Pokemon it can trap and kill, this is over-centralizing to the extreme.

One thing I do know now is that there's no way in hell I'm going to actually try DW OU for myself until this thing is out of there. It's clearly all kinds of wrong.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Which only implies that Chendelure is simply the same kind of threat as Magnezone, not that it's broken. The question is, how good is too good?

By running Blissey. I didn't see any Chansey in OU from gen 2 to 4, because it was strictly outclassed by its evolution. In a metagame where walls need to either beat Chandy 1-on-1 or run Shed Shell, Chansey won't be able to do either, and will fall back to UU.

Tell me this: You put a Shed Shell on Blissey so it can switch out on Chandelure and you can go to your Salamence to hit it with an Earthquake. Your Blissey no longer has any Leftovers recovery. You put a Shed Shell on your Scizor so Chandelure won't kill it with a Fire Blast. Oh, your Scizor no longer has Choice Band or Life Orb and now its Bullet Punch will do pathetic damage to just about everything in the game. Congratulations, you have just made a bunch of terrible Pokemon just by putting Shed Shell on them!

You could argue that Scizor could switch out on Chandelure via U-turn, but that's old news - Scizors already click U-turn as Magnezone comes in so Magnet Pull does nothing. A large number of Steel-types viable in OU bar Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Lucario can switch out of Magnezone via U-turn/Volt Switch. Chandelure covers many more things in the game and quite a large number of these Pokemon can't U-turn out.

And I can tell you didn't notice what I was getting at, so I'll just tell you that when I stated "Let's put a Shed Shell on Chansey" and then asked how it was going to take any hits, that was a rhetorical question.

Just the fact that Chandelure has the highest non-legendary Special Attack stat in the game, a great stat-boosting move, and Shadow Tag makes it a billion times more threatening than Wobbuffet ever was and ever will be.

 

[lordkira]

Tell me this: You put a Shed Shell on Blissey so it can switch out on Chandelure and you can go to your Salamence to hit it with an Earthquake. Your Blissey no longer has any Leftovers recovery. You put a Shed Shell on your Scizor so Chandelure won't kill it with a Fire Blast. Oh, your Scizor no longer has Choice Band or Life Orb and now its Bullet Punch will do pathetic damage to just about everything in the game. Congratulations, you have just made a bunch of terrible Pokemon just by putting Shed Shell on them!

You could argue that Scizor could switch out on Chandelure via U-turn, but that's old news - Scizors already click U-turn as Magnezone comes in so Magnet Pull does nothing. A large number of Steel-types viable in OU bar Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Lucario can switch out of Magnezone via U-turn/Volt Switch. Chandelure covers many more things in the game and quite a large number of these Pokemon can't U-turn out.

And I can tell you didn't notice what I was getting at, so I'll just tell you that when I stated "Let's put a Shed Shell on Chansey" and then asked how it was going to take any hits, that was a rhetorical question.

Just the fact that Chandelure has the highest non-legendary Special Attack stat in the game, a great stat-boosting move, and Shadow Tag makes it a billion times more threatening than Wobbuffet ever was and ever will be.

this is very true.
I've been putting on random shed shell on some mons every now and then BECAUSE of chandy. this...should not be happening.

 

[jas61292]

Tell me this: You put a Shed Shell on Blissey so it can switch out on Chandelure and you can go to your Salamence to hit it with an Earthquake. Your Blissey no longer has any Leftovers recovery. You put a Shed Shell on your Scizor so Chandelure won't kill it with a Fire Blast. Oh, your Scizor no longer has Choice Band or Life Orb and now its Bullet Punch will do pathetic damage to just about everything in the game. Congratulations, you have just made a bunch of terrible Pokemon just by putting Shed Shell on them!

So let me get this straight:

Without Shed Shell, your examples all lose tho Chandy. With it, they all suck.

If this is the case, why are you using them at all? You should use pokemon that are good it the metagame you are playing, and if they are unviable there, it doesn't matter how good they could be somewhere else. You just don't use them. Instead, you use Pokemon who can function with Shed Shell, or those who don't fear Chandelure. The argument that it makes guys who should be OU useless is terrible because there is no such thing as a Pokemon that should be anywhere. If it can't function in a game with ST Chandy, then don't use it.

Now If Chandelue could destroy everyone in a game where people actually used lesser seen Pokemon to beat it, or ran Shed Shell on guys who don't mind it, then we would have a problem. But just because it dominates people who think the strategies to beat it shouldn't be used does not mean anything.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

So let me get this straight:

Without Shed Shell, your examples all lose tho Chandy. With it, they all suck.

If this is the case, why are you using them at all? You should use pokemon that are good it the metagame you are playing, and if they are unviable there, it doesn't matter how good they could be somewhere else. You just don't use them. Instead, you use Pokemon who can function with Shed Shell, or those who don't fear Chandelure. The argument that it makes guys who should be OU useless is terrible because there is no such thing as a Pokemon that should be anywhere. If it can't function in a game with ST Chandy, then don't use it.

Now If Chandelue could destroy everyone in a game where people actually used lesser seen Pokemon to beat it, or ran Shed Shell on guys who don't mind it, then we would have a problem. But just because it dominates people who think the strategies to beat it shouldn't be used does not mean anything.

Your entire argument is invalid on the basis that it IS because of Chandelure that these Pokemon aren't good. Scizor by itself is an excellent Pokemon, but thanks to Chandy he pretty much gets fucked. CB? Fuck it, you have to U-Turn every single fucking time. Shed Shell? Oh look, now you have a shitty damage output. And honestly. Scizor is such an excellent Pokemon in itself, if you claim that he sucks, who do you suggest as a replacement? Or stuff like Blissey and such?

Rarely will there be Pokemon that CAN actually function with Shed Shell, and almost everyone will prefer more power or more healing than some random bullshit item that sits pretty, all because of one Pokemon with 145 SpA that has Fire/Grass/Ghost coverage and can rape your shit. Anything that doesn't fear Chandelure? Sure. Wait for that Normal-type that has Flash Fire. SubCM has so bloody high power, to the point that who the fuck gives a crap if Houndoom comes in, I'll just ohko with +6 Shadow Ball.

Heck, seeing as its mostly because of Chandy that virtually half the metagame is dead weight, he should gtfo.

 

[IcyMan28]

With Latios and Latias losing their Soul Dew, I see steels becoming much less dominant in the metagame, so that may change things for Chandelure.

As it stands, Chandelure's role as a revenge killer doesn't exactly make it broken in my opinion. Being weak to all three hazards while having average defenses (if that) and unfortunate typing means that it may be accomplishing that once, maybe twice. And while ScarfChandy may be a damn good revenge killer, it is a sitting duck for Pursuit or becomes set up bait itself once it has balanced the scales with a 1 for 1 trade. I honestly like the fact that Chandelure makes you think, it's all about risk management.

So you're faced with an Excadrill sweep and have Techniloom out, although you are aware that Chandelure is waiting in the wings. Weighing the pros and cons of going for that Mach Punch becomes much more important than blindly clicking the attack and dealing with the consequences later.

As for SubCM, yes it is powerful and needs to be considered when making every team, but there will always be pokemon like that. It makes using a support pokemon a more active thought process as well, whereas they have traditionally be "safe" options. I'm not sure that this is a bad thing.

 

[Razza]

Ban chandelure, i used to play dw and the only reason you never saw it much is due to the large rain usage, and the fact most players probably thought it wasnt allowed

It has the ability to revenge kill almost anything with a weakness to its stabs or one of its coverage moves, it has a low profile at the moment but this threead means we will probably be seeing a lot more on ladder. I mean this thing can even revenge kill a weakened tyranitar with hp fighting if you are feeling ballsy, yes it is weak to pursuit, but that would mean almost everyone running tyranitar or shed shell on a number of pokes in the team. And hey pursuiting it with tyranitar means it has already got one kill.

It is one of those cases where there needs to be "no test" just like for something like mewtwo or palkia, it just destroys things, and anyone with any common sense would run one, because it would be stupid not too if you have the opportunity to.

also in response to icymans post it would seem that excalure, is most likely an extremely broken combo also, and is another example of why this needs a quickban.
For example you send out excadrill, opponent switches to gliscor as you go to chandelure, hp ice kos, excadrill sweeps gg. Specs chandelier can also ohko checks like conkeldurr with fire blast. It doesn't matter if ttar kills it afterwards chandelure killed your gliscor and Excadrill will now sweep.

Not only that the dw holds a lot of potential for stall teams with stuff like regenerator ammongus but with chandelure as a presence, stall is completely unviable ( due to key
Members being trapped and killed) as a playstyle in ana even greater way than those arguments that excadrill makes hyper offense unviable.

Also arguments such as chandelure is weak to hazards are stupid as by the time it dies to stealth rock and spikes from switching in it has already accumulated 2 kills at least.

Now get that candle the hell out of dw!!!!!!!!

 

[Jimera0]

So let me get this straight:

Without Shed Shell, your examples all lose tho Chandy. With it, they all suck.

If this is the case, why are you using them at all? You should use pokemon that are good it the metagame you are playing, and if they are unviable there, it doesn't matter how good they could be somewhere else. You just don't use them. Instead, you use Pokemon who can function with Shed Shell, or those who don't fear Chandelure. The argument that it makes guys who should be OU useless is terrible because there is no such thing as a Pokemon that should be anywhere. If it can't function in a game with ST Chandy, then don't use it.

Now If Chandelue could destroy everyone in a game where people actually used lesser seen Pokemon to beat it, or ran Shed Shell on guys who don't mind it, then we would have a problem. But just because it dominates people who think the strategies to beat it shouldn't be used does not mean anything.

And with this post you're actually arguing for the other side. You're flat out agreeing that Chandlure, by itself, makes a vast number of Pokemon completely non-viable in DW OU. If that's not overcentralization then I don't know what is. One pokemon should not be affecting the way an entire metagame is played to this extent. It's one thing for a Pokemon to be something every team needs to consider. It's another thing entirely for that one Pokemon to make a dozen or more otherwise totally viable Pokemon completely unusable.

This isn't about Chandlure being unstoppable. Very few Pokemon that get banned are that. No, the reason is because by their very existance in the teir they completely shape the entire metagame around themselves. THAT is what makes them broken.

 

[jas61292]

And with this post you're actually arguing for the other side. You're flat out agreeing that Chandlure, by itself, makes a vast number of Pokemon completely non-viable in DW OU. If that's not overcentralization then I don't know what is. One pokemon should not be affecting the way an entire metagame is played to this extent. It's one thing for a Pokemon to be something every team needs to consider. It's another thing entirely for that one Pokemon to make a dozen or more otherwise totally viable Pokemon completely unusable.

This isn't about Chandlure being unstoppable. Very few Pokemon that get banned are that. No, the reason is because by their very existance in the teir they completely shape the entire metagame around themselves. THAT is what makes them broken.

Actually, I am arguing that Chandelure, just as any other Pokemon in a metagame, shapes how the metagame functions and who is viable. The problem with your argument is that you assume that the certain Pokemon made unviable because of Chandelure for some reason deserve to be OU, where as others who can beat it or are fine with a Shed Shell do not deserve it. OU is a function of how good a Pokemon is in the metagame being ranked. Just because the stats, abilities, typing and moves of a Pokemon, say Scizor, seem like they should make it OU, if the environment does not support that Pokemon, then the players need to adapt and use Pokemon that do work there. Whether or not Scizor is an "excelent Pokemon," as someone said, is irrelevant. If it does not function in this specific metagame, then it is not "excellent" here.

At least to me, if Chandy is such a big threat people need to use Pokemon to beat it, and dump those who are dead weight with it around, no matter how good they would be in some other tier. If Chandy still destroys the tier then yes, it should be banned, but saying that it makes non-DW OU staples suck does not mean anything at all.

 

[alexwolf]

With Latios and Latias losing their Soul Dew, I see steels becoming much less dominant in the metagame, so that may change things for Chandelure.

As it stands, Chandelure's role as a revenge killer doesn't exactly make it broken in my opinion. Being weak to all three hazards while having average defenses (if that) and unfortunate typing means that it may be accomplishing that once, maybe twice. And while ScarfChandy may be a damn good revenge killer, it is a sitting duck for Pursuit or becomes set up bait itself once it has balanced the scales with a 1 for 1 trade. I honestly like the fact that Chandelure makes you think, it's all about risk management.

So you're faced with an Excadrill sweep and have Techniloom out, although you are aware that Chandelure is waiting in the wings. Weighing the pros and cons of going for that Mach Punch becomes much more important than blindly clicking the attack and dealing with the consequences later.

As for SubCM, yes it is powerful and needs to be considered when making every team, but there will always be pokemon like that. It makes using a support pokemon a more active thought process as well, whereas they have traditionally be "safe" options. I'm not sure that this is a bad thing.

I am only referring to the bolded sentence.
First of all how is a pokemon with 145 S.Atck and 2 very good STABs setup bait?
In that sense every Choice user is potentially setup bait if it is locked in the wrong attack.
Does this means that it is not worth it?Fuck no.

Also how can you even say that it is Pursuit bait?
If you would say Ttar bait i could understand it but Pursuit bait rly?
Which Pursuit trapper can trap effectively and easily ST Chandlure in OU,except Ttar?
Scizor which is weak to its main STAB?Or Metagross which is also and additionally is neutral to the other.
Even if Chandelure is locked in SB it can do a very good amount of damage to Scizor which with SR would easily equal to half health being lost.
So congrats you lost 1,5 pokes and YOU are now a BIG FUCKING HUGE SETUP BAIT.
Any single setup booster can setup on your Pursuit.

And anyway the thing that you don't get is not that Chandelure will get one guaranteed kill in each match.The point is that it can totally pick a whole bunch of pokes and simply eliminate them.
Do you get how big of a support factor is that?
Imagine if Magnezone is number #30 because of its steel trapping abilities where will Chandelure rise...

 

[Jimera0]

Actually, I am arguing that Chandelure, just as any other Pokemon in a metagame, shapes how the metagame functions and who is viable. The problem with your argument is that you assume that the certain Pokemon made unviable because of Chandelure for some reason deserve to be OU, where as others who can beat it or are fine with a Shed Shell do not deserve it. OU is a function of how good a Pokemon is in the metagame being ranked. Just because the stats, abilities, typing and moves of a Pokemon, say Scizor, seem like they should make it OU, if the environment does not support that Pokemon, then the players need to adapt and use Pokemon that do work there. Whether or not Scizor is an "excelent Pokemon," as someone said, is irrelevant. If it does not function in this specific metagame, then it is not "excellent" here.

At least to me, if Chandy is such a big threat people need to use Pokemon to beat it, and dump those who are dead weight with it around, no matter how good they would be in some other tier. If Chandy still destroys the tier then yes, it should be banned, but saying that it makes non-DW OU staples suck does not mean anything at all.

You're missing the point. A balanced metagame is not one where a single Pokemon makes dozens of Pokemon and entire play-styles nonviable. Choiced pokemon become liabilities, Stall becomes impossible, dozens of Pokemon become useless unless you run shed shell on them, and many of those Pokemon become useless with Shed Shell. When a SINGLE POKEMON is forcing even a half dozen Pokemon entirely out of the tier, by itself, something is not right. Yes the metagame is obviously shaped by the Pokemon in it, but no one Pokemon should have this much influence. There's a fine line between "substantial threat" and "broken threat". Everything I've heard about ST Chandlure suggests it's so far over that line it can hardly see it from where it stands. This isn't like any tapping Pokemon before it. Before they were all held back by mediocre stats and limited move pools. Chandlure changes that. It has everything it needs to succeed beyond trapping, as well to effectively trap and kill more Pokemon than any Pokemon, ever. I can't understand how someone would NOT find this broken tbh, much less someone who's been around as long as you. However from your arguments I'm thinking you're against banning almost altogether, since just about any of the Pokemon banned in OU the past year could have the same argument made for them as you've made for Chandlure.

I'd prefer to keep the number of bans to a minimum, but there are some Pokemon which are just so obviously unhealthy for the metagame I can hardly comprehend why some people insist they remain. This is one of those instances.

 

[UltiMario]

I thought the Smogon policy was to leave DW alone?

 

[King John]

Like I've said about people calling for weather to be banned, learn to counter Chandelure before calling for it to be banned. Seriously, the thing has low bulk and defenses, plus it has a lot of weakesses. Without Shadow Tag, it'd be next to nothing except a garden variety Special attacker that can be walled by Blissey/Chansey.

But that's my opinion.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Actually, I am arguing that Chandelure, just as any other Pokemon in a metagame, shapes how the metagame functions and who is viable. The problem with your argument is that you assume that the certain Pokemon made unviable because of Chandelure for some reason deserve to be OU, where as others who can beat it or are fine with a Shed Shell do not deserve it. OU is a function of how good a Pokemon is in the metagame being ranked. Just because the stats, abilities, typing and moves of a Pokemon, say Scizor, seem like they should make it OU, if the environment does not support that Pokemon, then the players need to adapt and use Pokemon that do work there. Whether or not Scizor is an "excelent Pokemon," as someone said, is irrelevant. If it does not function in this specific metagame, then it is not "excellent" here.

At least to me, if Chandy is such a big threat people need to use Pokemon to beat it, and dump those who are dead weight with it around, no matter how good they would be in some other tier. If Chandy still destroys the tier then yes, it should be banned, but saying that it makes non-DW OU staples suck does not mean anything at all.

You see here, it's because there is not a single Pokemon in the game that can come in on one of its attacks and KO it, because nothing can switch in!

The SubCM set is one of those sets that sucks ass in normal gameplay, but suddenly Shadow Tag makes it fucking amazing. It's way too easy to get to +6/+6 and sweep an entire team. If it doesn't, well, odds are you took out something that could potentially threaten your Lucario, so it can sweep the remainder of your opponent's team.

 

[Drifloon]

Like I've said about people calling for weather to be banned, learn to counter Chandelure before calling for it to be banned. Seriously, the thing has low bulk and defenses, plus it has a lot of weakesses. Without Shadow Tag, it'd be next to nothing except a garden variety Special attacker that can be walled by Blissey/Chansey.

But that's my opinion.

First of all, nothing is able to counter chandelure because it ha shadow tag.

Second, you state that if it didnt have shadow tag it'd be next to nothing.

Well guess what?


...

It does have shadow tag. Oh, and blissey and chandelure are subcm set up bait, shadow tag or not.

 

[That Noob]

Like I've said about people calling for weather to be banned, learn to counter Chandelure before calling for it to be banned. Seriously, the thing has low bulk and defenses, plus it has a lot of weakesses. Without Shadow Tag, it'd be next to nothing except a garden variety Special attacker that can be walled by Blissey/Chansey.

But that's my opinion.

As stated before, your argument is terrible. Shadow Tag alone got Wobb to Uber last gen and makes him a prominent threat; without his ability, Wobb would be absolutely useless, so yeah. Anyways, as said how in the world do you counter Chandelure? Have you even ever played DW? Due to a whopping 145 base sp .atk, there isn't any counters and as stated, it is very easy for chandelure to get to +6 and sweep you. Who cares about bulk and defence when nothing can switch in anyways? Plus, it resists/is immune to the three most popular priority moves in ES, Mach Punch, and bullet punch.

 

[Matthew]

I think you're forgetting that Chandelure is slow as rocks though, why would you need priority to hit it when you can just hit it with a normal attack. It's not like even a resisted hit won't break its sup (i mean unless you're a special attacker, but then you're still going to break its sub. In my experiences with Chandelure it seems pretty overhyped. Sub set is good, but it's the opposite of game breaking. and the scarf set is just a very dominant revenge killer, but I mean it's a revenge killer. 1 for 1 is how they all work.

 

[King John]

As stated before, your argument is terrible. Shadow Tag alone got Wobb to Uber last gen and makes him a prominent threat; without his ability, Wobb would be absolutely useless, so yeah. Anyways, as said how in the world do you counter Chandelure? Have you even ever played DW? Due to a whopping 145 base sp .atk, there isn't any counters and as stated, it is very easy for chandelure to get to +6 and sweep you. Who cares about bulk and defence when nothing can switch in anyways? Plus, it resists/is immune to the three most popular priority moves in ES, Mach Punch, and bullet punch.

Okay, I admit I kind of made a terrible argument, but my main point does still stand. If people just learned how to deal with (I won't say counter, because you do have a point) Chandelure, then maybe they won't think about banning it. After all, it can still be revenge killed. Not easily mind you, but it can.

 

[alexwolf]

I think you're forgetting that Chandelure is slow as rocks though, why would you need priority to hit it when you can just hit it with a normal attack. It's not like even a resisted hit won't break its sup (i mean unless you're a special attacker, but then you're still going to break its sub. In my experiences with Chandelure it seems pretty overhyped. Sub set is good, but it's the opposite of game breaking. and the scarf set is just a very dominant revenge killer, but I mean it's a revenge killer. 1 for 1 is how they all work.

I didn't expect such a bold statement from you Gen.Empoleon...
1 v 1 may be how all work but ffs you can switch out from almost every revenge killer if you want.You can avoid being revenge killed!
But Chandelure can eliminate almost every single threat it wants and help his team like no other poke can.Because when Chandy comes in to revenge kill he will.Without fail.
I seriously feel very weird for explaining to you so obvious stuff.

 

[Pocket]

I think Gen. Empoleon is packing a Pursuiter (ie TTar) to revenge-kill Chandelure. Hence, 1 to 1 trade.

 

[alexwolf]

I think Gen. Empoleon is packing a Pursuiter (ie TTar) to revenge-kill Chandelure. Hence, 1 to 1 trade.

Pocket first of all you mean that he carries a Ttar not a pursuiter since all other pursuiters in OU cannot reliably trap her at all.
So every team is forced to carry a Ttar to make it a 1v1 trade?
And also remember that 1v1 trade seems much more unfair when your opponent chooses what to kill but you don't.
Chandy will kill whatever it wants and then you will kill her.
Who has the upper hand in that trade?

 

[Matthew]

Actually, no, my team should be considered very "weak" to chandelure on paper. However in match experience I can say that it has been overall underwhelming. It can set up on certain threats (blissey etc), but then why carry those pokemon on your team? I use Techniloom and it is the MVP on my team despite how often Chandelure is on a team. It's just a pokemon, and it isn't really even that overcentralizing. If anything I'd say Serperior is way better than Chandelure, but I guess that's for another time.

 

[Jimera0]

I think Gen. Empoleon is packing a Pursuiter (ie TTar) to revenge-kill Chandelure. Hence, 1 to 1 trade.

Of coruse, you really shouldn't HAVE to pack a pursuiter that can beat Chandy (and face it, a lot of them just plain can't and even Tyranitar could get screwed over if it packs HP fighting.) This is the same reason we had Excadrill banned; it's not that it can't be beaten, but that it screws with team building so hard that if you don't run something to take it out (in this case, pursuit Ttar) you're basically asking to be walked all over. It's only 1 for 1 if you're willing to compromise your team and put in a pursuiter. If you don't do that, well you can say goodbye to any chance of getting high on the ladder, since Chandlure will be able to pick off key members of your team with impunity.

And alex made a great point that Chandlure isn't like other kinds of revenge killers. Most revenge killers you can just switch from, and those you can't all have limitations on what they can trap except for Wobbuffet, and it's a stretch to call him a "revenge killer" for anything except choiced Pokemon. These Pokemon are further held back by either terrible speed or terrible attack power, as well as crippling weaknesses. Chandlure is unique in that it can trap and kill most opponents, rather than a select few due to its terrific typing, mind-blowing SpA, and very workable speed (80 Base speed isn't anything to write home about, but it's hardly terrible, especially with Scarf).

Again I'd like to point out the core here. This issue isn't saying that it "can't be beaten". It's that it limits the metagame so that it operates along very narrow lines. Like Excadrill, Chandy makes an entire playstyle unusable (High Offense and Stall respectively). Like Excadrill, Chandy can't really be countered, only revenge killed (Chandy is even worse in the can't be countered department, but is slightly easier to revenge). Finally, Chandy can completely tear apart unprepared teams, and being "prepared" in this case means pretty much one thing; run a pursuiter that can beat it. All this together means that, in my eyes, it IS broken. It fits the support criteria, and a decent argument can be made for the offensive criteria (though I do not personally believe it meets it). No one can argue though that Chandy doesn't make it infinitely easier for almost any sweeper to sweep, simply by being able to remove the sweepers checks with impunity. 1 for 1 isn't equal when you can guarantee that 1 is exactly the one you need gone.

 

[shinyskarmory]

Haven't played DW OU so I can't give a serious argument, but I can say that Chandy is Wobbuffet who can actually attack.

That idea is pretty scary to me.