Control; How do they work?

[vonFiedler]

In just about every competitive game that requires thinking over reflexes, and that allows a variety of play styles, four dominant types of play can be seen.

Aggro
When the goal is to win as fast as possible through sheer force, usually with little meddling with the opponent.

Stall
When the goal is to outlast the opponent, preventing them from making any game winning progress.

Control
When the goal is to reduce the opponent's capabilities as much as possible, then win easily.

Toolbox
When your win strategy lacks complexity, but you have the tools to dismantle the opponents complex strategy.


Aggro can be seen easily in Pokemon today. With the current metagame, everything is a OHKO, 2HKO, or 3HKO, and speed matters. With my little understanding, it seems that Stall was much better in the Advance generation, but it can still be seen with Sandstorm and Hail teams. Toolbox is usually a hedge case in any game, so I'd like to focus on Control and its role in Pokemon.

I've some questions that I don't think are fit for the simple questions thread, and that I can hope can spur discussion.


What is Control's place in Pokemon?

We've seen numerous mathematical analysis on how good a Pokemon can be at Aggro and Stall. Some very competitive moves are obvious Control, such as spiking and taunting, while some others control moves (such as Imprison, Disable) just aren't very good at all.

What is a Control Pokemon? Which Pokemon would dominantly fall into this category?

Is a revenge killer Control? It exists to stop a sweep, to prevent the opponents Aggro. Or is a revenge killer Toolbox? As they are usually tailor made to cover a team's weakness. Are lead pokemon dominantly Control? Whether they are lead or anti-lead, the general purpose is to hinder the opponent as soon as the match starts.

What would be a good Control team? Could such teams exists?

Or do control elements need to be mixed in with Aggro and Stall teams?

 

[Rhys DeAnno]

I think one big aspect of Control in pokemon is in temporary field effects and weather. Dual Screens, Sand, Rain, and Trick Room are all seen in competitive play. A couple moves such as Brick Break and Roar also have "control" aspects to them.

I think the closest thing to a full control team you see in pokemon is dedicated Trick Room or Rain Dance.

 

[mtr]

I always associated stall with control, and Rain Dance / Screens / Baton Pass / Whatever teams with "Combo", the last of the big 3 archetypes. I guess the closest you'll get to control is Dual Screen Bronzong + DDGyarados or something like that.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Interesting question.

Pokemon that are good at control excel at transferring the initiative from the opponent to the user. They can do this in a variety of ways. They can shut down an offensive threat and pose a threat to the rest of an opponent's team with status or powerful attacks. These Pokemon are sometimes referred to as Pokemon that "slow down the game"; powerful stall team staples like Skarmory and Blissey come to mind. On the other hand, some pokemon can pose such a great offensive threat themselves that they pressure the opponent either into playing very conservatively or taking dangerous risks. Pokemon like Salamence fit into this category. And finally, there are Pokemon whose very existence on a team, once known, greatly discourages certain kinds of moves. For instance, a Flash Fire Pokemon significantly reduces the chances that an opponent will spam Fire-type moves.

All of these make up the idea of "control". Essentially, control boils down to forcing your opponent into a disadvantageous position through a variety of means, and it is fundamentally what high level Pokemon is about. But what is it focused on, in any given game?

Most high level matches are not dictated by a turn 3 Lucario sweep, but by the ebb and flow of power between the players until the balance tips sufficiently enough that the winning player can just clean up. And power is transferred merely by switches, the threat of switches, the threat of damage on switches, and the threat of giving certain Pokemon free switches. If you look it this way, it seems that competitive Pokemon and the concept of Control itself ultimately boils down to "what can do I do to make this person suffer as much pain from the fundamental concept of switching as possible".

 

[vonFiedler]

Keep in mind that often both Stall and Control hope to slow down the game, but they aren't the same thing. I definitely think Taunt is a heavy Control move, and that's used as anti-Stall when not used as an anti-rocks move.

I definitely see Rain as Aggro. Every use of Rain I've seen was to increase the sweeping potential of a team. In that sense, it's about as pure Aggro as I've seen Pokemon.

I see what you're saying with switching though, I guess it is about the best way to keep momentum in your favor.

 

[ginganinja]

Eessnetially I don't see Control as an archtype since in any battle players are fighting for dominance (and thus for the control of the match). Still I understand what you are trying to say and I pretty much agree with Flare Blitz here. Interms of a team though I do think that Balenced Teams are likely the best fit for Control teams but thats just me.

 

[Acritter]

Status seems to be a huge contributor to control. A paralyzed or burnt sweeper or a toxic'd wall have much fewer options.

 

[vonFiedler]

On reflection, it seems to me that Breloom is one of the quintessential Control Pokemon. He spores, reducing the options of the opponent severely. When they switch out, he subs, which further reduces what the opponent can do. In normal conditions, Focus Punch is not favorable. However with the opponent hindered, Focus Punch crushes. Poison Heal seems like more of a Stall tactic, but without bulk it's really just another way to keep the opponent down.

Control isn't named such because it controls momentum, or the game. All archetypes want to do those things. Control wants to control the opponent. With switches, it's not as simple as just outprediction. You want to make the opponent make the wrong switches if it can rightly be called control.

 

[Despotar]

My favorite use on control is Sand Storm offense or stall.
To be able to protect, and let the opponent take damage is a big advantage.
Another interesting case is Taunt Gyara. Blocking whirlwind, roar, status, etc. Can completely shut down pokemon.
You can definitely use pokemon like this to amazing effect.

 

[obi]

Baton Pass seems to fit nicely in your definition of control. Use Ingrain so they can't phaze you, Substitute to they can't status / CH you, and then defensive boosts so all of their attacks do nothing, all the while just preparing for a sweep at the end (or sweeping the whole time with a 6 BP team).

 

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

My first thought of 'Control' teams was something like the Quickstall ones with WoW mewtwo. While its goal is to stall you from making any offensive progress while slowly whittling away your HP it does so by means of controlling the opponents ability to use certain moves and deal as much damage as normal.

Another Ubers example would be something like a Jumpluff in the sun. There is only so many hits it could normally take on its own, but by using Sleep Powder, Encore, and Leech Seed it has no problem controlling the opponents actions.

Usually what I'd consider a control pokemon has high enough speed to act before a good number of its opponents and has status abilities, flinch abilities, encore, taunt, disable, trick, etc. I may have the definition wrong, but from what I've read it would seem like matty's Team LoNg ShoT HeRo http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71805

Having used this myself I know for a fact how easy it is for this team to destroy a mostly paralyzed opponent. There are so many options you have when after the other guy can get a free sub up as you miss a turn and looks ready to start Iron Heading you.

 

[Alan]

so I'd like to focus on Control and its roll in Pokemon.

It should be "role" not "roll". :P

I think Taunt, Hazing, PHazing moves and Torment all fit the bill for Control. They effectively prevent your opponent from doing what it is they need to do. Be it set up, heal, or just attack repeatedly. Also RestTalk Combo could fit because it prevents them from statusing you but idk if that works or not, definition wise.

Although the second point you make, seems to me like anything could be Control, as long as it stops your opponent from doing something important to his/her strategy, in which case, wouldn't almost everything that stops one of your opponents pokemon be considered control? Since theoretically all 6 members of a team must work together in synergy to accomplish a win condition. I might just be reading too far into it.

 

[Mazinger]

I always thought of stall as the pokemon pendant to control, since stall is gaining the control disabling the opponent and slowly killing him while aggro is just smashincg around.
i dont think there is really "combo" in pokemon, since combo doesnt care what the opponent does at all and finishes extremely quick in one blow, not like aggro or control.

(everything is just my exxpierence form mtg)

summary: control=stall, aggro=aggro combo=noexistant.

oh and one last thing: wtf is toolbox?

 

[BuddyBlueBomber]

Interesting concept. Control would have to be one of those strategies which teams aren't usually based around, but are used largely as a tool in almost all teams. Stall teams use control a lot of the time to slow down the opponents momentum enough to where their strategies start to become ineffective. Aggro teams use control to make momentum either shift from the opponent to you, or to make sweeping even easier.

Actually, I have made a team centered around an aspect of control before; Attract. It's been a long while since I've played it (Before Latias and Salamence were banned), but the concept is still the same. There's a link in my sig which goes to its thread. It was probably the funnest team that I've ever played.

 

[Requiem[9]]

I always thought of stall as the pokemon pendant to control, since stall is gaining the control disabling the opponent and slowly killing him while aggro is just smashincg around.
i dont think there is really "combo" in pokemon, since combo doesnt care what the opponent does at all and finishes extremely quick in one blow, not like aggro or control.

(everything is just my exxpierence form mtg)

summary: control=stall, aggro=aggro combo=noexistant.

oh and one last thing: wtf is toolbox?

I think that, from the perspective of Magic, "toolbox" would be tempo or midrange. From the perspective of pokemon, it's where I would put semistall and bulky offense, respectively: you limit to the opponents options to a degree and use apparently anti-momentum pokemon like Blissey and Gliscor to slowly build an advantage, or have enough switches to always get a favorable matchup.

I agree that control is just stall in pokemon. There's never any playstyle in any game that revolves around not losing, and there's no such thing as Toxic Spikes are Sandstorm in most games. If you reduce stall in pokemon to its basic purpose, it's to cut your opponent from doing anything. For example, if I have a Blissey in against your Jolteon, what are you going to do but switch? It doesn't do anything as far as mechanically limiting your options, but from a pratical perspective, stall makes it so you have no effective move and have to switch. The existence of residual damage and entry hazards in pokemon eliminates the necessity of a finisher once sufficient advantage as been obtained, but if you think about a stall team without entry hazards, it would seem a lot more like stall in other games: break down the opponents team with Seismic Toss and Drill Peck, heal occasionally, wear out your opponent's recovery, clean everything with a Scarfer or Agility sweeper.

Baton Pass teams too, I guess, like obi said, which is a cool idea, and, because of the nature of stall in pokemon, a better illustration.

Combo teams could be teams build around a certain sweeper, but that might be a stretch. It makes sense in my head, though, because those teams don't care about anything, how many pokemon they have, what pokemon you have, beyond eliminating the counters (Leyline of the Voids and Trinispheres) to that pokemon and getting that one sweep off, which could, done properly, take them from 1-4 to 1-0.

Although the second point you make, seems to me like anything could be Control, as long as it stops your opponent from doing something important to his/her strategy, in which case, wouldn't almost everything that stops one of your opponents pokemon be considered control? Since theoretically all 6 members of a team must work together in synergy to accomplish a win condition. I might just be reading too far into it.

Yeah, I think that that's a bit too reductionist. It's how you stop your opponent from accomplishing their goals that matters, not whether or not you're trying to stop them from accomplishing their goal. Because, obviously, you are. For example, from the cases of aggro vs. combo and control vs. combo, aggro stops your combo by killing you and control stops your combo by countering your shit.

 

[Chateau]

I think every moveset that's not specifically aggro (an boosting sweeper or a Choice user lacking Trick), is to some extent Control, therefore nearly every team is a Control team. The act of laying down hazards controls by forcing the opponent to be economical with switches. Supporting your sweeper with Screens or Rapid Spin directly controls your opponent's damage output. Really any team that thinks it's aggro is controlling the conditions necessary to let the more aggro-inclined team members work as efficiently as possible.

Also, I wouldn't count Toolbox as a kind of play as it isn't really planned. Every team has some goal, and if a battle turns out to win via Toolbox play, it's because of an imbalance in the effectiveness of you and your opponent's teams. Basically if you win via Toolbox it's because you have a bad opponent, not because you built your team with that goal in mind.

 

[vonFiedler]

I honestly don't think Toolbox has a place in Pokemon, but it's usually a hedge case anyway. In card games, some of my favorite decks have been tool boxes but they were only gonna win local tournaments. Toolbox is alot like Aggro. They are both built around really statistically strong attack options, but Aggro is singular in its support (more attack faster) and Toolbox has varied support. The problem with applying Control to Pokemon is that Control usually sacrifices its attack power to be more controlling. But even the Team Long Shot Hero that was posted, which really looks like true Control team to me, it still has some great attacks.

 

[min min]

Whereas Aggro is Sweeper-based and Stall is Wall-based, I think Control is more support-based, with focus on status spreading, baton passing, taunting and "naling stuff on the switch". When the opponent tries to start momentum (e.g. switching SD Scizor into Gengar), Aggro and Stall would be to switch to a counter while Control would hit it with HP Fire on the switch. In short, I think the basis of Control is to come prepared, but at a loss of power that is compensated by a weakened opponent with cut-off momentum points.

 

[General_Norris]

I think that your terms are quite confusing and have the opposite meaning to those used in other communities. In MTG you have:

Aggro: BEAT THEM IN DA FACE
Control: Stop them from harming you, then when they can't do anything, kill
Combo: 1+1 = Profit!

In the end, Stall and Toolbox as you call them are Control. Your win condition is irrelevant to the overall strategy of Control.

Toolbox in Magic is when you have a number of silver bullets (Cards that lack overall utility but aren't very good against a specific matchup) and tutors to fetch those. Any kind of strategy can use a toolbox. Given the limitations of Pokémon (6 Pokémon, 4 attacks each) you can't really run a toolbox. Using a Pokémon to cover a weakness of your team is only one so calling it "toolbox" is kind of an stretch.


In Pokémon there's not really a lot of combo other than Baton Pass. Rain is like using Swords Dance, it is a set-up move but calling it combo is a bit of an stretch.

Baton Pass looks very comboish to me. You have an engine (Baton Pass) to fuel boosts (Speed + Nasty Plot + Porygon- Z) and then you have protection so you don't get beaten while you do that (Acid Armor, Substitute). It is more akin to Storm combo than traditional combo if you understand the Magic reference.*

So I would say that in Pokémon the archetypes would be:

Aggro: JUST KIIIILL
Control/Stall: Prevent the opponent from harming you or setting up
Combo: If you set-up you win.

*Normally a combo is just a combination of two cards that win the game. For example, Illusions of Grandeur has a very high cost that increases every turn. If you can't pay it you lose 20 life. So you play it and then use Donate to give it to your opponent, winning you the game.

Storm Combo is very different in that there are no key cards. Basically you use cards that read "If you played 9 spells before this one you win" so your focus is just playing things and getting more resources to play more things and get more cards. I think it is very similar to Baton Pass in executtion.

 

[destinybond]

To me a very Control oriented move would be U-Turn, and its lesser equivalent, dry baton passing. It is meant to keep the momentum in your hands(i.e. control) and take it away from your opponent. You see people talk about it War Stories, and how it lets them gain the upper hand in a battle.

 

[Game Freak201]

To me, control = stall in Pokemon. The whole point of stall teams is to reduce the opponents capabilities whether it be traditional stall which is used in most metagames or quick stall in Ubers. Semi-stall isn't a perfect example of control since these type of teams are essentially balanced teams.

Toolbox teams aren't usable in pokemon since these type of teams are known as anti-metagame teams. Due to the limit of having only six pokemon per team, it's impossible to run enough counters, checks, and lures for every single threat. And if a toolbox team is successfully built, it will only remain viable for a short time compared to most other team archetypes.

 

[Chameleon]

I think that sleep and paralysis support are two of the most prominent components of control. Neither of them are Aggro, because the are definentely "messing with your opponent", and do not help in outlasting your opponent like stall does better with Toxic. Paralysis and Sleep limit sweeping capability (and the latter stalling as well), making the opponent more predictable as to whether they will switch or be outrun. Then, you can run through their weakend team memebers with pokemon who could not do so without the support (kind of like Machamp vs. a paralyzed Togekiss). Wallbreaking is control too, as it limits their, well, walling capability as a goal.

Nevertheless, stall and control are pretty similar. If a Blissey beats an enemy with Seismic Toss / Thunder Wave / Softboiled, is it stall, because you outlasted them, or control, because you limited their capabilities and won easily? It seems to fit both. Stallbreaker Gliscor is even more complicated, being a toxic staller (stall), wall softener (control), and stall dismantler (toolbox).

If a control pokemon has trouble avoiding being like stall but becomes Aggro if it goes all-out offensive, it's safer to classify these traits as playstyles. If you focus less on prolonged survival than stall but more on meddling than aggro, you are probably control. As for toolbox, as stated above this is a balance or anti-metagame team. Wall their sweepers, sweep them back, nothing else. We can also think of the playstyles as a spectrum parallel to what we use already:

(Hyper) Offense --- Bulky Offense or Balance --- (Semi) Stall
-----Aggro------------Control or Toolbox-----------------Stall

I'll try to classify some Pokemon anyway, for the opening post.
It's tough because of the overlap, but support pokemon like Defensive Celebi, Memento Jumpluff are probably control, as are pokemon like Life Orb Heatran that are powerful but will not rip though an entire team without indirect help. You could argue that LO Tran is Aggro, but how you use it and who you use it with matters.

 

[vonFiedler]

I think that your terms are quite confusing and have the opposite meaning to those used in other communities. In MTG you have:

Aggro: BEAT THEM IN DA FACE
Control: Stop them from harming you, then when they can't do anything, kill
Combo: 1+1 = Profit!

In the end, Stall and Toolbox as you call them are Control. Your win condition is irrelevant to the overall strategy of Control.

You act as if Magic was the only game ever. I've played, and invented card games where Stall and Toolbox are drastically different than Control. As far as Combo, combining two things to produce a strategy is common in any deck other than a Toolbox. It's only highlighted in Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh because certain cards are made to work specifically with other cards, which as a rule is something I avoid when designing.


In regards to Chameleon's Blissey question, Blissey certainly has the stats of a Stall Pokemon. On a Stall team, it's probably a token Pokemon. But you see it all the time on teams that aren't Stall oriented too, and in those instances I'd say it's purpose is to Control the opponent. Throwing out paralysis, tricking, and forcing switches and all that.

 

[NeoSeth]

I think Control is one of those things that isn't really a "team type", per say. All teams should be trying to control what the opponent does, and achieving victory is easy once that is done.

The most common example of control is PRECISELY what FlareBlitz said. Switching. Stealth Rock is a great example, since a lot of Pokemon take 12 or even 25% from just switching in. It might not seem like much, but that really adds up and makes opponents far more wary of switching in. Spikes functions in a similar way, doing up to 18%. Toxic Spikes badly poisons everything that switches in. Let's assume you had everything up, and you just set up with Tyrannitar. Well, your opponent COULD switch in their Choice Band Scizor to Bullet Punch you and stop the sweep. But if that Scizor switches in, it takes 30% from Spikes and Stealth Rock alone. Let's say it already switched in three times. If it switches in, it dies. So basically, your opponent now has no way to counter your Tyrannitar. This applies to any counter, and works in lesser situations, i.e if your Gengar switches into SR, it can't survive the Sacred Fire from Smeargle it's switching into and OHKO back.

That said, you can't make a "Control Team" in the same way you make a Stall or Offensive Team. You can say "Oh, I'm going to outlast/overpower them." But when you control the battle, you want them to make a certain move. Why? Do you want them to switch in Dragonite to take SR damage to prevent it from hindering your Infernape sweep later? Or do you want them to switch in Dragonite to take SR damage and get hit with Toxic so you can out-stall its attempts to break your defensive core? Control is what you achieve to maximize your strategy, not the strategy itself. When you control the match, you do so to keep your momentum going and your opponent from gaining the momentum, and you have momentum so that your sweep can go on through, or that you opponent never breaks your core. You don't control it for the sake of controlling the match, since that accomplishes nothing.

To use a card game for an example, in Yu-Gi-Oh you keep your opponent's field clear to allow your monsters to attack without fear. Ergo, you control the field to progress with your plan as easily as possible.

That answers the first question... now for the second. A good "control" Pokemon is one that forces your opponent to do something to your advantage. That said, there really isn't a control Pokemon, since your opponent can always do something else (Prediction games ftw). But for the sake of the thread, Gliscor is a good example. Stealth Rock, a really fast Taunt, Toxic and U-Turn are all good moves to have to put the pressure on your opponent. Froslass, when played properly, is a fantastic control Pokemon. It blocks Rapid Spin AND sets up Spikes. It also has a Taunt faster than Gliscor's, along with many status options like Thunder Wave, Toxic and Confuse Ray. Mixed attacking Pokemon are good, since they have the ability to break down any Pokemon if your opponent predicts wrong. From this stream of thought, I think Stallbreaking Pokemon are the most control oriented Pokemon, since they force your opponent into the position you want them: Weak and unable to resist your attacks.

The third question was answered in the first section of this post, but I'll sum it up quickly here. All good teams are control teams. They force their opponents to play their way, on their turf. Whether that turf is covered in three layers of Spikes, two layers of Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock and Hail, or drenched in Rain is all up to you. The important thing is to make the rules your opponent plays with and to enforce them. For example, a rule on my latest and greatest team is "Entry hazards are permanent, and you WILL take 36% when you switch in. You do NOT Rapid Spin! DO NOT F***ING RAPID SPIN!" so I run a Ghost. With a Ghost type, they DO NOT F***ING RAPID SPIN. But on your team, you might have other rules. Like It will Rain, and I will be faster." or "My Dragonite is going to kill your entire team." But the important thing is to create the rules and to make your opponent live by them. Once that is achieved, you have control.

 

[Myzozoa]

I would classify the 2 iconic moves of the control archetype to be Trick and Taunt, these moves both attempt to limit what your opponent can do and therefore are control. A control type of team to me would look a lot like:

Anti Lead Here
Scarf/specs Rotom
Sub Heatran
Sd Lucario/LO Starmie/ Empoleon
U-turn pokemon here (flygon/scizor)
2nd trick pokemon/ Taunt pokemon (gyarados? CS Rachi)

Essentially the idea is to trick a wall thereby crippling it and getting you an opportunity to set up a pokemon. U-turn is ideal for scouting against whatever you have tricked obviously, and it is good in general. The combination of trick, uturn, and taunt should hopefully enable you to execute your goal which is to make the opposing team helpless to stop you from sweeping. This strategy *may* look very similar to combo but i think it is different in that it screws around with your opponent more.