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D/P tiers. (READ 1st and 2nd POST)
- Thread starter Surgo
- Start date
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Here's my state on all of this:
Ho-oh: I'm glad the decision was made for him to stay Uber. Although he's weak to SR and Rock moves, Sacred Fire and Uber stats make him deserve to stay uber.
Manaphy: I do not think he should be Uber. I have no bias towards him, but from what I know, he isn't exactly "Game Breaking" in the OU tier. Although he will do better in Ubers (with kyogre and such) he should remain OU.
Tyranitar: He should stay OU, because he isn't too hard to kill. I know he is great for Sandstream teams. He is at best borderline Uber, which IMO isn't enough for him to be Uber.
Ho-oh: I'm glad the decision was made for him to stay Uber. Although he's weak to SR and Rock moves, Sacred Fire and Uber stats make him deserve to stay uber.
Manaphy: I do not think he should be Uber. I have no bias towards him, but from what I know, he isn't exactly "Game Breaking" in the OU tier. Although he will do better in Ubers (with kyogre and such) he should remain OU.
Tyranitar: He should stay OU, because he isn't too hard to kill. I know he is great for Sandstream teams. He is at best borderline Uber, which IMO isn't enough for him to be Uber.
Thats just the thing though - Pokemon aren't send to ubers just because they do well there. They are sent there because they are too powerful for the OU metagame. That was decided a long time ago. Seriously, "Ubers" is more of a ban list then anything. Just look at poor little Mew. She honestly never gets used in Ubers despite her huge movepool. And why should she see use? There are much better Psychics in ubers.
Besides, Manaphy could always Grass Knot the incoming Kyogre ;) I'd assume most ubers are heavy.
Now that manaphy is uber, could phione be used a little more?
My twocents
@Tyranitar this pokemon does not deserve to be uber, in the OU meta, A simple CC or medicham BB can kill him. While in ubers, Kyogre water spout, Mew/two Aura sphere, Deoxys F Superpower, and several others deal with him.
@Salamence easily countered by blissey or empolion.
@Metagross It's seen play in ubers but defanitly is not among them. I rarely see this thing in standards know.
My twocents
@Tyranitar this pokemon does not deserve to be uber, in the OU meta, A simple CC or medicham BB can kill him. While in ubers, Kyogre water spout, Mew/two Aura sphere, Deoxys F Superpower, and several others deal with him.
@Salamence easily countered by blissey or empolion.
@Metagross It's seen play in ubers but defanitly is not among them. I rarely see this thing in standards know.
Well, phione wont see use, because not only does it NOT have TG, base 80's arent good enough for OU even WITH hydrorest.
Tyranitar and celebi should keep in the OU metagame. They may be strong but tyranitar get ko'ed easily by a fighting move, and celebi can't really do that much with tyranitars and weaviles around.
the real ubers are very, very hard to counter in the OU, so I agree with marking them as ubers.
It won't be smart to place garchomp, metagross, salamence, suicune,... in the uber list. They are the strongest pokemon in the OU-metagame, and are pretty hard to counter due to high stats etc. If you put them in the uber list, then other pokemon become the strongest in the OU-play. Everyone would say they are too strong etc. and want to put them again in the uber list.
the real ubers are very, very hard to counter in the OU, so I agree with marking them as ubers.
He speaks the truth!
Honestly, solid physical attackers shit on Blissey, as well as and especially ones with a Fighting move. Believe me, I'd love nothing more than to see the fat pink piece of crap removed from 3/4ths of the teams I face, but only because it's so incredibly common. It's not as if I start slamming my head against the wall going "Shit! He's got Blissey! What am I going to do against that???" whenever someone uses her. She doesn't overcentralize the metagame, like so many people love to claim, if anything she just overcentralizes a team slot. That's a very big distinction.
I'm throwing my hat into the ring for Ambipom as OU as well. STAB'd, Technician'd, Life Orb'd Fake out is pretty nasty, and it's a pretty good teammate in several other ways as well.
I'd vote for Alakazam to be OU, but there's nary a soul using 'im right now, which is at least part of the discussion, as Synre pointed out.
Isn't Mew in uber for an entirely different reason though? From what I've seen in using Manaphy personally, fighting against manaphy and reading about his use (I think there's a warstory with him in the archive)he's not that much of a threat.
He's incredibly predictable and easily taken down. Most pokemon ,especially Gengar, with a super effective attack can take him out. Also, Manapy requires that he be switched in meaning the majority of the time you won't be facing a manaphy at full health.
Battles usually go something like this,
*rain dance*
Manaphy switched in, X pokemon uses X attack depleting 1/4 of his HP.
Manaphy uses tail glow, X pokemon switches out.
X pokemon is faster uses SE hit, manaphy faints. Occaisonally X pokemon is slower and is hit with NVE or nuetral damage and then manaphy faints.
No one likes to switch out because tail glow is wasted and it defeats the purpose of using him in the first place.
Even if uber manaphy did carry grass knot that's why I mentioned Palkia. I just can't see Manaphy as uber.
The thing with Manaphy is that it can't do EVERYTHING at once. Even with Rain Dance support, it only leaves 3 slots open (assuming you have Rest). If you go with Surf/Grass Knot/Ice Beam, you aren't really hitting very hard, and you're easily countered. If you have Surf/Ice Beam/Tail Glow, you're walled by waters, most notably Water Absorbers like Vaporeon. If you have Surf/Grass Knot/Tail Glow, you're STILL walled by Grass types. Manaphy really isn't that hard to beat.
If you bring Manaphy in at endgame when most things are beaten up pretty badly it's like certain death... Manaphy deserves Uber. I will say it can be dealt with but it's extremely dependant on how well the player uses it and when it's brought out. Though, this can be said for many pokemon, but Manaphy is the likely choice!
I think the line of reasoning is that anybody worth their salt isn't just going to be bringing Manaphy in willy nilly. It won't just be: Bronzong lead -> first turn Rain Dance -> Manaphy switch. There's going to be some scouting and making sure to remove/adjust to any counters.
Sure, this can be said of many, many things, but other common threats can still be taken down even if a true counter is already removed. Manaphy presumably isn't quite so easy.
Again, this isn't my feeling, it's just what I've been lead to believe from previous posts.
Sure, this can be said of many, many things, but other common threats can still be taken down even if a true counter is already removed. Manaphy presumably isn't quite so easy.
Again, this isn't my feeling, it's just what I've been lead to believe from previous posts.
Exactly, but you stated it much better than how I was trying to. Manaphy isn't quite so easy. Once the few counters are gone the Manaphy will go to town. Other pokemon can also do this, but Manaphy does it MUCH better!
Heracross does the same thing but you don't see anyone suggesting that it be uber :P
Meh, idc either way - I think manaphy, though I personally dont agree, belongs in ubers since it is quite uncounterable. Tyranitar isnt an uber, to many weaknesses, a double edged trait teamwise, and slow to boot.
Good thread.
Good thread.
People read: PLEASE think.
How is weavile gonna switch into fucking tyranitar before 'pwzoring it with brick break'.
Read the definition of that a counter is:
By definition, a counter is a pokemon that is able to:
Somethin that can:
1. Switch into the opponent's pokemon safely.
2. Take the opponents attack well.
3. Stop the opponent's strategy.
Tell me how many of you can safely switch Weavile or Medicham into ttar..
How is weavile gonna switch into fucking tyranitar before 'pwzoring it with brick break'.
Read the definition of that a counter is:
By definition, a counter is a pokemon that is able to:
Somethin that can:
1. Switch into the opponent's pokemon safely.
2. Take the opponents attack well.
3. Stop the opponent's strategy.
Tell me how many of you can safely switch Weavile or Medicham into ttar..
Well it depends. Heracross can't handle Salamence and that's on most teams anyways. Heracross does not also like stabbed psychics. Choice Scarf Hera loses it's Oomph and can't hit as hard. I see Manaphy a much larger threat!
Of course. Every Pokemon is going to have its counters and weaknesses, just like Manaphy.
Yes but I'd find it much more challenging to take out a Manaphy than a Heracross. Of course, I do agree both have their counters and weaknesses though! I just find it that there are more Heracross counters on teams than Manaphy counters!
Actually a simple Tail Glow/Ice Beam/Surf/Grass Knot was determined to be far more threatening than any set. Manaphy has bucket loads of power under its belt it just needs the diversity to top it off.
It wasn't a knee jerk reaction out of the blue either, theres been multiple and repeated discussions. Facts determined were that Manaphy sets up too fast, with too little effort and with massive payoff.
The counters for Manaphy with Rain Dance setup are overall just too small. Ludicolo, Raikou, CM Blissey and Kingdra. Without RD setup a good status effect will do, but it can simply pack a lum berry and still operate with great effectiveness since rarely will anything coming in will ever OHKO it.
Pretty much, by way of definition, a counter must be able to take both the offending pokemon's STAB moves without taking more than 50% damage in any single hit (barring crits) AS WELL as the majority of the pokemon's alternative moveset choices without running into an Achilles heel.
Take for example Magnezone vs Metagross.
Situation:
Metagross is starting
Your Starter.
Your starter is either metagross weak or cannot dispatch of it in a single hit. You have a Magnezone in the bay that can resist Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch, Zen Headbutt, Thunder punch, Explosion. Good idea for a counter right?
Your Starter returned!
You sent in Magnezone!
Metagross uses Earthquake for LOL.
well fuck. A better choice to wall Metagross would've been Skarm or Bronzong, as Skarm still takes only middling damage from non-CB Thunderpunch, and most people wouldn't carry fire punch for Zong alone.
A better choice to COUNTER Metagross would've been Swampert as it resists Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch, and is immune to Thunderpunch, AND threatens to KO Metagross with EQ. (Most Meta's don't run Zen Headbutt anyway)
that being said, if a pokemon that "supposedly" counters TTar cannot safely switch in on a +1/+1 dragon dance'd TTar, with STAB Crunch, STAB Stone Edge, Earthquake, STAB Pursuit, Taunt, then it is no counter at all. Technically, even if you switch in a pokemon you're not really safe because STAB pursuit might do the fleeing pokemon in anyway ><
Take for example Magnezone vs Metagross.
Situation:
Metagross is starting
Your Starter.
Your starter is either metagross weak or cannot dispatch of it in a single hit. You have a Magnezone in the bay that can resist Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch, Zen Headbutt, Thunder punch, Explosion. Good idea for a counter right?
Your Starter returned!
You sent in Magnezone!
Metagross uses Earthquake for LOL.
well fuck. A better choice to wall Metagross would've been Skarm or Bronzong, as Skarm still takes only middling damage from non-CB Thunderpunch, and most people wouldn't carry fire punch for Zong alone.
A better choice to COUNTER Metagross would've been Swampert as it resists Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch, and is immune to Thunderpunch, AND threatens to KO Metagross with EQ. (Most Meta's don't run Zen Headbutt anyway)
that being said, if a pokemon that "supposedly" counters TTar cannot safely switch in on a +1/+1 dragon dance'd TTar, with STAB Crunch, STAB Stone Edge, Earthquake, STAB Pursuit, Taunt, then it is no counter at all. Technically, even if you switch in a pokemon you're not really safe because STAB pursuit might do the fleeing pokemon in anyway ><
Read: Every sweeper ever.
This mentality isnt why Manaphy should be debated. Manaphy should be debated because it's mono typing only allows for 2 weaknesses, Electric and Grass.
With the right EV distribution, (particularly towards defense), Manaphy could take hits from those attacks, then OHKO with a double STAB'd surf, then Rest on something smaller.
The set up of manaphy is easily done, as anything manaphy would come in on, will get out, fast. THIS is why it's uber, because with anyone smart using it (we're assuming you wont send the damn thing in on Jolteon) will use it to it's fullest potential (i.e. destroying teams)
It's been said that Sunny day users/Sandstreamers are counters.
Is that really the case?
My point is, that TTar, with his Def. Boost, does NOT like Tail Glowed Surfs, nor does Hippowdon.
And in the case of sunny day users,
Name me one, aside from bronzong (who doesnt want to risk taking that first TG Double STAB surf) who isnt weak to Water/Ice?
Point is, it's not that Manaphy can work well under its preferred circumstances, it's that it can easily make ANY circumstances, its circumstances.
Please define a Heracross counter..........Gliscor is the only counter for CB Hera and i guess you can List Weezing as a counter but aside from those there arent really any counters for it. Dont even list Gyarados and Salamence as Stone Edge puts them in their place......
Its harder to take on a Heracross that a Manaphy as Heracross can just be used as a Hit and Run whereas Manaphy has to TG first before it can do significant damage
I find Rhyperior to be the only true reliable counter!
Well, what really switches well in against anything that is +1/+1 Dragon Dance? Gyarados rapes whole teams. Salamence also. Dragonite can, but is not quite as speedy. But the point is that Tyranitar is not the only threat seemingly uncounterable after a Dragon Dance.
Granted, Tyranitar does have Pursuit, which hurts as you switch, but if you're talking post-setup, you've opened a new can of worms.
That Typing also allows for almost no resistances and i dont know if you ever played with a Manaphy but it is difficult to set up an immediate sweep with one.
If you switch it in it takes damage form the opponents attack and then has to take damage from another attack before using TG or the opponent can simply switch to something that immediately poses a threat to it, forcing it to switch out
Manaphy is best brought out late game when most pokemon are weakened but then again what sweeper isnt......
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