Double Battle Metagame.

[StarmanXL]

Jason, have you tested out that pairing in actual battle against good doubles opponents? I mean, it just doesn't seem to do much of anything. For one, Skarmory's offense is actually rather meh with its base 80 Atk and base 70 speed, and there's absolutely no way it can go mixed with its god-awful sp. atk. And why no item? Wait, why wouldn't I use some other ground-immune pokemon, such as Gyarados or Salamence or Dragonite or Zapdos in its place? And why does Electivire have Magnet as opposed to Life Orb or Muscle Belt or Expert Belt or something? And why no EVs?

How do these two pokemon pair together? From what I can see, they don't, and they don't set up any sort of strategy of their own when together, nor do they reliably prevent any opposing strategies common in doubles.

 

[Jason36]

Jason, have you tested out that pairing in actual battle against good doubles opponents? I mean, it just doesn't seem to do much of anything. For one, Skarmory's offense is actually rather meh with its base 80 Atk and base 70 speed, and there's absolutely no way it can go mixed with its god-awful sp. atk. And why no item? Wait, why wouldn't I use some other ground-immune pokemon, such as Gyarados or Salamence or Dragonite or Zapdos in its place? And why does Electivire have Magnet as opposed to Life Orb or Muscle Belt or Expert Belt or something? And why no EVs?

How do these two pokemon pair together? From what I can see, they don't, and they don't set up any sort of strategy of their own when together, nor do they reliably prevent any opposing strategies common in doubles.

Skarm doesn't have an item because I haven't found one that suits me. I catch pokes, check their movesets, change said movesets, and then take it into the BT. If it fails there, then I attack my win-streak again with Skarm/Elec/Nape/Sire team. The reason as to why I haven't tested it out against good doubles players is because I don't have Wi-Fi, so I can't battle online. Sucks really. I don't have the resources to get the LO because right now I have a 28-win streak. I only have about 28 BP.

As of right now, I have no clue how to calculate EV's, nor do I feel the need to. If you're talking about speed and such, yeah, I can do that. IV's/EV's: I'll let Matt do that. I feel that they pair together because they can cover each other's weaknesses quite well. Electrivire is usually fast enough to OHKO anything coming in, while Skarm can usually flinch anything with Air Slash. I've only had problems with Wobbuffet, and I got through that.

This could be due to the fact that I'm more of a "screw competitive movesets, I'm going all-out with attacks!" My team that I use for BT has only one attack that isn't an attack: It's Quaggy with Yawn.
Also, what are common strategies for doubles? I would like to know.

 

[PurpleNurple42]

Well, this is from my old RMT and no one looked at it.

Azelf @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 SAtk
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Explosion
- Psychic
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
Azelf's real job here is to Explode...nothing else. The last 3 moves are filler I guess. Could be handy against random Gyaradoses and Gengars

Explosion is such a deadly move in doubles, and Azelf is no exception. With 383 Attack, it hurts A LOT. Too bad that they downgraded Explosion's power, otherwise it would've OHKOed Groudon at 500 BP. Explosion here is obviously used to set up a Trick Room, something you'll see on like the rest of my guys.

Naughty is used here instead of Adamant to keep its special attacks powerful. It also helps take Sucker Punches and stuff, which explains why it isn't Lonely.

If I’m taking this to ubers, Azelf will have about 330 Attack, mainly to prevent Dialga in my team from getting killed in a combination of Explosion and Heatran’s Flamethrower in the sun. Grass Knot > Thunderbolt in ubers.

Azelf is paired up with either

Bronzong @ normal resist berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk /136 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Flash Cannon
- Explosion
- Hypnosis
So this is Zong, something that sets up Trick Room. The Normal resist berry allows it to take an Explosion. It already resists it, but CHes can happen and I don't want my strategy to be ruined because of that. Anyways, after setting up a TR, it can either blow up or attack the opponent. The set may look horribly unsuppportive aside from Trick Room, but I have my reasons. Explosion is also fun. Flash Cannon to finish off Endeavored foes and Hypnosis is....hypnosis

Sassy here so it can take random Fire Blasts and stuff.

OR

Dusknoir @ King's Rock
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Atk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Shadow Punch
- Fling
- Brick Break
Why can't Spiritomb learn Trick Room?
This is easy. Basically, Azelf Explodes and this sets up a TR. Shadow Punch to "hurt" other Ghosts I guess. Fling is no laughing thing here. It is like Fake Out, minus the +1 priority, but hits Ghosts and is able to be used on turns that are not the first. Brick Break is…Brick Break. Despite the “OR”, Dusknoir is still part of the team. It’s just that Zong and Noir aren’t out at the same time. Of course, this set looks lol until…

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
LEVEL: 1
Trait: Own Tempo
EVs: 0
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Endeavor
- Protect
- Shadow Sneak
- Spore
After seeing era404’s videos of the Japanese tournament finals, and after looking into Obi’s award-winning JAA tactic, I decided to pick a Smeargle for my own team. With Trick Room, this thing is faster than pretty much anything, Endeavoring all opposition into 12 HP. Focus Sash isn’t exactly a requirement, but it is the absolute best item you can use on this thing, allowing it to cause more chaos in case someone decides to use a priority move on this thing. Spore is obvious, and combined with Fling or Fake Out, it allows this to be set up. Shadow Sneak for the Shedinja factor. Protect if I don’t want Sash to get wasted yet. Tyranitar would prevent the Sash from working, though, but it doesn’t mean Smeagle’s dead, unlike the previous Obi mode.

Shiftry @ Macho Brace
Trait: Early Bird
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Fake Out
- Dark Pulse
- Explosion
- Protect
Yet another Exploder. Dark Pulse to deal with Ghosts. Protect because I said so, and Fake Out to help Smeargle. Shiftry stands at about 74 speed with macho brace and 0 IVs in speed. Early Bird is obvious. With this, I don’t have to fear random sunlight boosting my speed.

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SAtk
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Flamethrower
- Taunt
- Protect
- Explosion
This is my anti Taunter taunter. The EVs allow Heatran to survive a Rhyperior Life Orbed Earthquake in doubles. Anyways, the point of this is to Taunt slower Taunters like Dusknoir and Spiritomb, while it provides the nice fire resistance and packs a decent amount of power too.

I love exploding in doubles, just check out my team in double battle tower records, but take out Bronzong because even if there was such a thing as a normal resist berry, WHICH THERE ISNT!!!, it wouldnt work because normal type moves are not super effective against Bronzong, in fact they are not super effective against anything, Bronzong would still be murdered by 2 attacks it has to face before using Trick Room. Star with a ghost and an exploder. hint (Gengar, Dusknoir) hint

 

[False [old]]

All this exploding is why I plan to run Damp Golduck.

Honestly, the Double Battle Metagame is exciting to me because there's so much to explore, and so many different ways to use Pokemon. Moves that are usually considered useless in 1v1 have new life in 2v2, and not just obviously useless ones in 1v1 like Helping Hand or Follow Me.

 

[Murkrow]

take out Bronzong because even if there was such a thing as a normal resist berry, WHICH THERE ISNT!!!, it wouldnt work because normal type moves are not super effective against Bronzong, in fact they are not super effective against anything

See http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/chilan_berry

 

[False [old]]

You know, that brings up a question I have:

Does the double battle metagame use the same tiers as the 1v1 metagame? Obviously, fellows like Kyogre and Mewtwo are out, but what about some of the more debated suspects?

Besides bringing pokemon down from Ubers, some pokemon could wind up being incredibly useful in 2v2, and be brought UP from UU/BL.

 

[StarmanXL]

Right now, 2v2 uses the same tiers as 1v1 for sheer convenience, and I'm guessing that until we get a simulator and can easily test suspects it'll stay that way.

Things is, I know some UUs and whatnot, such as Toxicroak and Cherrim, have the potential to be awesome, but I'm not sure if they break their respective tiers or anything. I dunno, it's actually a bit confusing.

 

[Vhind]

I think it would be a very interesting project to attempt to compile a list for the various tiers. Yes, many of the OUs in 1v1 would stand out as OU in 2v2, but at the same time, many of them wouldn't. The doubles metagame requires more prediction and strategy and many novice players do not take that into account. They use 1v1 OUs together which prove to be a predictable combination, thus leading to limited usability.

 

[eric the espeon]

Maybe even some 1v1 Ubers would not be too strong for 2v2?

 

[Kittymew]

StarmanXL: Toxicroak definitely breaks its tier, and jumped all the way to format-1 for doubles (OU equivalent). Cherrim is less serious, but I think it'll probably see play in format-2, but we'll see if it actually unbalances the lower tier once it's a little more defined.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Maybe even some 1v1 Ubers would not be too strong for 2v2?

Like what?

Maybe Manaphy or Lati@s, but those are already being considered for testing. Most of the other things are just as broken in doubles, or even more so.

 

[Vhind]

Like what?

Maybe Manaphy or Lati@s, but those are already being considered for testing. Most of the other things are just as broken in doubles, or even more so.

Many dragon types lose their reliability in Doubles because of the common ice attacks carried by many Pokemon. The ability to gang up on one Pokemon frightens, but does not decrease, their use.

Please explain your last statement. Who is testing what? What are these "other things"?

 

[StarmanXL]

Yeah, I could see some things like Mew, Garchomp, Lati@s, and perhaps Wobbuffet possibly being non-uber and worth testing when we can get around to it, although things like Kyogre, Groudon, and Deoxys-A are pretty much completely out of the question.

Oh, and Kittymew, perhaps I'm just inattentive, but I've never heard of these formats as you call them. Could you elaborate on what they are, who's developing them, and how they're being handled?

 

[Kittymew]

*points to sig* Site's there, I'm head dev, along with a couple people who used to work for me, and it's been adopted by #dpbattle on systemnet, which is feeding in test data and analysis at a good rate.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Many dragon types lose their reliability in Doubles because of the common ice attacks carried by many Pokemon. The ability to gang up on one Pokemon frightens, but does not decrease, their use.

Please explain your last statement. Who is testing what? What are these "other things"?

See Policy Review: Order of Operations (admittedly relating solely to the position of said disputed pokemon to the current singles OU metagame).

Only Garchomp and Rayquaza among the banned have 4x weak to ice, and there are speculations that Garchomp could be retested anyway.

Finally, as others have said, there are not too many open 2vs2 simulators that are easy to use for freer metagame simulation of the kind necessary, although I did not click on Kittymew's link, whatever it related to.

 

[Vhind]

Garchomp and Rayquaza aren't necessarily restricted in the doubles metagame, especially not on PBR. So I don't see the purpose of you mentioning their being tested.
Garchomp is widely used online, but Salamence and Flygon receive their fair share of play too. None of the aforementioned Pokemon are technically banned though the latter actually have more usability with standard teams.

 

[obi]

We really shouldn't start out with anything banned in this until we get a simulator up to start actually gathering data. Come on now, let's not make the same mistake we did with ADV-->DP and assume the tiers will remain roughly the same.

 

[StarmanXL]

Well that's most definitely true but, unless I'm misconstruing you, I don't think removing all tiers and saying, "Go nuts," would be particularly effective, more like a total clusterfuck. I was thinking, when we get a reliable simulator, it'd probably be better to do something like start the metagame off using the same tiers as standard for some time--a couple of months, perhaps--so that people can get used to the metagame, then gradually make testings and changes similar to how we're doing the Suspect Ladder now.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

I've played using a lot of different Doubles rulesets and tier systems in both the 3rd and 4th generation Pokémon games. One of the great things about Doubles is that very few Pokémon are truly 'outclassed' by another. Take my favorite team, for example. I didn't include the Politoed and the Bellossom because I wanted to use 'UU' Pokémon. I use them because they are the best at what I needed them to do. They fit niches that no other Pokémon can fit. The staggering number of Double Battle strategies means that, with the right ban list, a staggering number of Pokémon become not only viable, but useful.

As you all know, the idea behind tiers is that in order for some Pokémon to be useful, others need to be banned. In Singles, we ban the OU and BL Pokémon from UU so that we can get some use out of the UU Pokémon without severely disadvantaging ourselves. Because it's harder for one Pokémon to outclass another in Doubles, fewer tiers are needed in order to make most Pokémon useful.

For Doubles, I strongly recommend starting with the following two-tier system. The higher tier allows all Pokémon with the possible exception of Arceus (the "Legendary" tier). The lower tier bans all Legendary Pokémon, as well as Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, and Garchomp (the "Non-Legendary" tier). For reference, here's the complete ban list:

Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Dragonite, Mewtwo, Mew, Raikou, Entei, Suicune, Tyranitar, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Celebi, Salamence, Metagross, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Latias, Latios, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Jirachi, Deoxys (all forms), Garchomp, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Dialga, Palkia, Heatran, Regigigas, Giratina (both forms), Cresselia, Manaphy, Darkrai, Shaymin (both forms), and Arceus (all types).

This cutoff point may seem as arbitrary as any other and the number of banned Pokémon may seem very large, but in my experience it is the best way to maximize the number of viable Pokémon in the lower tier, thereby removing the need for an even lower, "UU" tier. I could count on both hands the number of fully-evolved Pokémon that I think are too weak to be used effectively in this Non-Legendary tier.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Just because you wouldn't use them doesn't mean they're not viable.

At 30 Speed, Parasect ties with 8 other Pokémon for third-slowest fully-evolved Pokémon (it's faster than Shuckle and Torkoal). The upshot is that almost nothing outspeeds it in Trick Room. Bronzong is faster at 33 Speed, along with most of the favorite Trick Room sweepers. Snorlax is the most notable exception, and it only ties with Parasect unless it uses Curse. Out of all Pokémon that slow, Parasect is the only one that has access to a reliable Sleep-inducing move. Of course, Trick Room's only half the picture. It also gets the phenomenal ability Dry Skin, which acts as a double Rain Dish and a Water Absorb. Parasect isn't a tank, but with maximum HP EVs (which it'll be getting with no need for Speed or SpAtk EVs), it can take a hit tolerably well, making these HP-recovery options very handy. Granted, to really take advantage of Parasect, you'll be using it in an environment where both Rain Dance and Trick Room are active. This isn't so hard to pull off in the 4v4 Stadium Mode. A Rain Dance team might consider using a Parasect against opposing Trick Room teams, for instance. They're certainly common enough for me to consider it.

You also wouldn't use Butterfree, which gets Tailwind and a nigh-100% accurate Sleep Powder. Now that Hypnosis has been nerfed down to 60% (still only 66% with Wide Lens), this is made all the more impressive. Other options available include Bug Buzz, Safeguard, and the ability to Skill Swap its 30% accuracy boost onto an ally.

I actually use a Fearow in one of my teams, and I've found it works quite well. I use it over Dodrio because I want U-turn, which Dodrio cannot learn. I also have Sky Attack on it, but Dodrio can learn that via XD move tutor.

I have to go for now, but I'll be back to finish up the list.

 

[ladelpulpo]

I love the 2v2 metagame becouse you can see battles like:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=gpX_7qdUW7Q


or

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=eRqyaepQQ60&feature=related


UU pkm pwning everybody

 

[False [old]]

I can't really help at programming a simulator for 2v2 (yet, anyhow, taking some programming classes), but when and if one is created, I'd devote a great deal of time to testing it and the metagame, believe you me.

Still considering my Gravity team, and trying to get around status problems. Either a Sleep Talker or Vital Spirit Primeape could help absorb sleep, and a Sleep Talker with Guts could help absorb everything.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Have you considered Safeguard? Five turns is a fairly long time in Doubles and it protects both your Pokémon from status, including confusion. You could even throw in Swagger or Flatter and make a strategy of it.

 

[False [old]]

Actually, looking back at my old post, I DID consider Safeguard. Meganium was one of my other possible pokemon. Now that I consider it more, it would be interesting to try and use Sceptile in a similar way. He gets Safeguard, and also learns Grasswhistle, which will hit much more under Gravity.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

That's true. Grasswhistle has 91% accuracy under Gravity. Sceptile's Grass type also allows you to significantly lessen damage from Earthquakes, which is very handy on a Gravity team.