Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings III

#1

D
PP OU Viability Rankings Thread

Welcome to the official DPP OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in DPP OU and what tier they should fall under. It's about time the RoA subforum joined in on the action!

The general idea of the topic is to rank each DPP OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

  • EX: Flygon can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Skarmory can be ranked under A as a supportive threat and Heatran can be can be ranked in S tier as a versatile threat. These are just examples, they may actually not end up being true.
The Pokemon are ordered by effectiveness.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
  • Jirachi
  • Heatran
  • Tyranitar
  • Starmie
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

A+ Rank:
  • Zapdos
  • Rotom-A
  • Dragonite
  • Skarmory
  • Breloom
  • Scizor
  • Infernape
A rank:
  • Gengar
  • Lucario
  • Hippowdon
  • Swampert
  • Gyarados
  • Flygon
  • Metagross
  • Shaymin
  • Azelf
  • Blissey
  • Suicune
A- Rank:
  • Gliscor
  • Aerodactyl
  • Machamp
  • Empoleon
  • Kingdra
  • Roserade
  • Nidoqueen
  • Forretress
  • Celebi
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

B+ Rank:
  • Bronzong
  • Clefable
  • Magnezone
  • Mamoswine
  • Abomasnow
  • Jolteon
  • Crobat
B Rank:
  • Dugtrio
  • Quagsire
  • Venusaur
  • Raikou
  • Milotic
  • Vaporeon
B- Rank:
  • Weavile
  • Togekiss
  • Gastrodon
  • Cradily
  • Snorlax
  • Tentacruel
  • Spiritomb
  • Heracross
  • Gallade
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

C+ Rank:
  • Rhyperior
  • Cresselia
  • Uxie
  • Steelix
  • Donphan
  • Hitmontop
  • Slowbro
  • Slowking
  • Staraptor
C Rank:
  • Moltres
  • Mesprit
  • Feraligatr
  • Toxicroak
  • Yanmega
  • Sceptile
  • Hariyama
  • Smeargle
  • Qwilfish
  • Kabutops
C- Rank
  • Medicham
  • Lanturn
  • Registeel
  • Ludicolo
  • Magneton
  • Walrein
  • Aggron
  • Azumarill
  • Mismagius
  • Drapion
  • Skuntank
  • Cloyster
  • Alakazam
  • Honchkrow
  • Magmortar
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are not very effective in the current metagame.
  • Dusknoir
  • Electivire
  • Porygon-Z
  • Blaziken
  • Torterra
  • Umbreon
  • Ninjask
Lead Rankings (ABC order)
S Rank
  • Aerodactyl
  • Azelf
  • Jirachi
  • Machamp
  • Metagross

A+ Rank
  • Dragonite
  • Empoleon
  • Heatran
  • Tyranitar
  • Zapdos

A- Rank
  • Infernape
  • Mamoswine
  • Roserade
  • Starmie

B+ Rank
  • Crobat
  • Gallade
  • Gyarados
  • Swampert

B- Rank
  • Flygon
  • Hippowdon
  • Nidoqueen
  • Raikou
  • Uxie
C Rank
  • Breloom
  • Bronzong
  • Celebi
  • Forretress
  • Gengar
  • Gliscor
  • Hariyama
  • Skarmory
  • Smeargle
  • Togekiss
  • Weavile
  • Yanmega

D Rank
  • Blissey
  • Ninjask
Changes from the old thread, Raikou moves to B- from C, Celebi and Smeargle drop to C from B rank, Yanmega and Hariyama move up to C from D rank

Changes from the old thread:

S rank: Jirachi up to #2, Heatran to #3 and Starmie down to #4.
A+ rank: Zapdos and Rotom-A down from S to the top 2 spots, Infernape takes the bottom moving up from A
A rank: Lucario and Hippowdon move up to #s 3 & 4, Swampert joins below Hippo from A-, Azelf and Blissey switch at the bottom
A- rank: Machamp and Empoleon move up to #s 3 & 4, Forretress drops to the bottom from A
B+ rank: Nidoqueen rises to the top, Clefable moves up to below Bronzong from the bottom of B, Abomasnow drops below Clefable, Crobat drops into the bottom
B rank: Vaporeon drops into the bottom
B- rank: Togekiss jumps ahead of Cradily, Snorlax drops from B to below Cradily, Tentacruel moves ahead of Spiritomb and Heracross to below Snorlax
C+ rank: Uxie moves ahead of Donphan, Staraptor drops to the bottom
C rank: Magmortar added! It goes below Feraligatr, Sceptile and Yanmega drop to below Magmortar, Registeel, Honchkrow and Lanturn drop to below Hariyama
D rank: Porygon-Z drops to below Electivire, Blaziken and Torterra drop from C to below Porygon-Z

Feel free to ask about any of them.

Starting points I'm wondering about:
- Gengar to A+
- Gliscor to A+
- Celebi to A-
- Gallade to C+

Have fun!
 
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Jirachee

an insane thinker
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#2
so I think Gliscor is A+

Gliscor is really, really, really good. It has 3 "main" sets I would say, and 2 of them are borderline broken and are what people want banned the most in DPP.

a) "Standard" Gliscor aka stallbreaker.

This is the most tame of Gliscors but that doesn't mean it's bad. Stallbreaker Gliscor gives defensive teams hell because they have a REALLY hard time switching into it without having to compromise. Skarmory is immune to pretty much anything it can throw at it, but it gets Taunted for an easy switch in for the Gliscor user (and what good does switching to Skarmory if you can set up Spikes?). It's excellent at abusing hazards and usually it'll stick around ALL GAME taunting stuff and just being a dick in general. If it has Toxic it can put your Water on a timer, and if it's something like Starmie, then have fun 50/50ing the scarftar. It also counters quite a few offensive threats (like Lucario) so it can help against those too. But I think that the next 2 sets are what really make Gliscor a top tier Pokemon.

b) Sand Veil abuse Gliscor aka SubSD

This guy has to be the most frustrating thing to face. Sand Veil Gliscor can win /any/ game if it gets just a little lucky. Sand Veil + Sub is a really strong gimmick because once it gets a SD boost, Gliscor actually is pretty strong. Stuff like offensive cune can barely even take a Jolly Earthquake and with SR + Sand it doesn't take much to put the bulkiest things in range. Its Speed isn't anything special but you can usually outspeed a large part of the other dude's team and sometimes that's all it takes to get a sub up. The inability to touch Skarmory sucks, but it's not something that's impossible to deal with (running lures or Magnezone.) No team really likes to take on SubSD Gliscor squads because it's able to win just about any game. If you wanna see what it can really do, then watch this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-gen4ou-50028

c) Baton Pass Gliscor

A lot of people think Gliscor Pass is broken and part of it is because of how good its movepool is, making it really easy to pass to a Metagross or whatever and just sweep the other dude's team. It's hard to stop it from happening when you don't even know what kind of resist berry it's running (either Passho or Yache.) While Gliscor isn't the only reason these teams are so effective, it's a really big part of them and nothing could really replace it effectively (Gligar? lol)

Gliscor for A+!
 
#3
Like the new thread, congrats on finally bumping up Nape
I would definitely get behind Gengar and Gliscor to A+ because both are so ridiculous in this metagame. Going forwards from Jirachee's above post about why Gliscor is broken (though even if we banned BP and Sand Veil it'd still be really strong), it doesn't stick to cheap haxy strats and is quite a solid mon in its own right. SD+3 with Lefties is strong af and hammers a lot of unprepared teams, using the 3rd Attack (Ice Fang usually) to bust through things that would otherwise lol at EdgeQuake coverage (looking at you Breloom+Flygon+Rotom-A), while Hyper Cutter keeps Gyara from checking you as comfortably as it would. Its a great lategame cleaner. SpDef is a ridiculously underrated set that takes Gliscor's stalling abilities to a whole new level (while also allowing it to take on Flygon, MixNite, MixedNape........). PhysDef sets are also useful for being a solid check to fighters (shoutout Aerial Ace for killing Breloom consistently. Gliscor is a beast and can take you to the cleaners in a variety of ways. A+

Gengar is sooooooooooooo amazing in this Metagame, its beyond words. I honestly think though that Sub is a necessity on this thing, as it is crucial in allowing you to handle ScarfTar+Scizor and not get Pursuited to death by them. Perfect coverage in two moves is amazing. SubSplit takes a lot of unprepared teams to the cleaners (the only Rock solid checks to it are SpDef Jirachi and Roost Scizor........everything else loses in the long run). SubWoW is also a really amazing set that I think will catch on as it basically ruins all Gengar's checks (Jirachi+Skarmory+Scizor+Bronzong+ScarfTar). Lastly it makes a killer Fighting Check which is really important in this meta (especially cause it can beat ScarfTar). Definitely a top tier mon in this meta. A+
 
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M Dragon

The north wind
is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the Smogon Tour Season 17 Champion
Moderator
#4
The problem is that you would have too many A+ mons.
I would only place in A+ those mons who can easily sweep or open holes in most teams (lucario, nape, dnite, zapdo) or are a huge part of dpp because several reasons (like scizor and maybe skarm).
Mons like gengar or breloom or gyara or gliscor are really good, but they are usually less consistent and a bit more matchup reliant, so in my opinion they are some steps behind those mons.

Also i think that a S- would be a good idea, with Starmie, Rotom-a and maybe Zapdos
 
#5
I wouldn't be opposed to an S- which would consist of Starmie/Zapdos/Rotom in that order if others are cool with it, I know people have been iffy on the subject of such a rank in the past.

I don't think Breloom and the guys currently being proposed for A+ are any more reasonably "matchup reliant" than several of the dudes already in the rank.

Gengar and Gliscor would make nine A+ pokes (and A would go from twelve to ten with them leaving). Okay, cool, I can sorta see the concern, but at the same time I don't think it matters. These are really, really good Pokemon and should be treated as such. Gar is one of the most terrifying Pokemon your average offensive team can face, it tears up defensive teams too and it's not exactly dry on different ways it can swing. I don't think I need to elaborate on how wild Glis can get and it can do quite a few things itself. Give them their due.
 

M Dragon

The north wind
is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the Smogon Tour Season 17 Champion
Moderator
#6
Another thing we could do is changing the A ranked mons.
Something like this:
S
Ttar
Heatran
Jirachi

A+
Starmie
Zapdos
Rotom-A

A
Dragonite
Lucario
Infernape
Scizor
Skarmory
Gengar
Gliscor
Breloom
Gyarados
Flygon?
Hippowdon?
Swampert?
Metagross?

A-
The rest of A mons

Azelf is not better than Aero
In this meta Bliss is not used as much as before
Celebi and Shaymin are dangerous, but not at the level of mons like Gengar

I would drop forry to B+ probably


The problem in general of these viability rankings is that there are too many high ranked mons.
 
#7
Js but the ORAS Viability Rankings have 21 A+ mons to 14 As, and I don't see people complaining about it. The amount of mons in one rank should not influence the amount in another (unless there's like 20 of them and some are clearly better than others). Imo Loom, Scor, Gar and Gyara are just about as effective as anything in A+ right now and should be up there.

I am pretty intrigued by an S- rank though as it does define the state of a lot of mons in this tier: arguably one could put Dragonite and Breloom in there as well because of their killer offensive presence and decent defensive value (they're not just 'inconsistent mons that only attack' like their detractors say). This would also solve the problem of A+ getting too crowded. What I see is something like this:
S+: Tyranitar
Heatran
Jirachi

S-: Starmie (could be full S)
Zapdos
Rotom-W
Dragonite (maybe)
Breloom (maybe)

A+: Skarmory
Scizor
Infernape
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados (maybe)

Also move up Flygon, Kingdra, Crobat and Jolteon.

In response to the post above Azelf is in no way better than Aero: Both are around the same level as leads but Aero's Stallbreaker set gives it the edge: Speed and EdgeQuake ruins offensive teams while Taunt shuts down stall mons: Also makes Hippo and Skarm less of an issue. It has stops and issues but it is still better than LO Azelf.
 
#8
Why gliscor in A+ and not lucario ?

Also LO Azelf don't need thing like EH to work well and he has boom but ttar/scizor/weavile can trap him easily sadly so yeah i agree with you on this point.
 
#9
I don't think adding a sub rank for S is necessary, but if anything is done, just raise the three to S+ instead of making S-.

*Edit*

Actually, scratch that. S looks really good right now and no sub should be made for it. Say what you want about Starmie, but it shapes the way the metagame is right now as much as Tyranitar. Hell, it's the main reason why ScarfTar has been so relevant all these years after Latias left.

You have to account for Starmie with every team. You need to remove it for your hazards to be safe or you need a good enough spinblocker to last as long as it does (good luck, as they can be easily taken advantage of with their Pursuit weaknesses too).

The metagame is extremely offensive, so those who choose to run LO do have to watch for ScarfTar (and weaken Blissey), but in return, have the luxury of a cleaner resisting most priority, and having all the moves it needs to hit everything in the game hard.

V - I saw the reply below me after I started editing. I don't think it matters what is made, the ones on top look more dominant regardless. I don't like the idea of a sub on S in DPP anyway.
 
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#10
I don't think adding a sub rank for S is necessary, but if anything is done, just raise the three to S+ instead of making S-.
Stronger than a S rank would mean a mon completely dominating the tier like a Garchomp would.

S- fits better because it means stronger than A+, weaker than S, which matches more in this case.

Some thoughts :

Blissey and Celebi are a bit too high.
I'm not sure about Suicune and Kingdra, they are really great and could deserve an higher rank.
 
#11
for your consideration: Spiritomb for C rank in lead

Tomb isn't the greatest lead in the world but Shadow Ball/Sneak/WoW/HP Fighting modest with Lum/Spell Tag dents most leads out there, lets Zelf only get up rocks, beats Machamp, WoWs loom if you run lum, limits fros to a layer of spikes and it can't dbond you at all, WoWs ttar, forces Starmie out, etc.
 

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the Smogon Tour Season 14 Champion
#12
I prefer M Dragon's idea of changing the A ranks if necessary to keep the S rank as small as possible. S rank represents the cream of the crop of DPP, the metagame's face if you prefer, which is pretty well represented with the current S rank.

I don't think Zapdos belongs to the S-rank at all. It's much less versatile than the current S-rank Pokemons and doesn't serve an unique purpose like Starmie (spinning) or Rotom (spinblocking). I'd even consider putting Rotom over Zapdos because it represents the metagame that much more to me (one of the most common scarfer and most used spinblocker).

Regarding the changes proposed on the OP:
  • Gengar
    is more suited to A than A+ to me. ScarfTtar is just too present in DPP to make Gengar as reliable as you want it to be. Jirachi is everywhere too and it always checks Gengar in a pinch. SpDef Skarm, another tier favorite, checks all the Tbolt/Taunt-less variants, and these variants have troubles staying healthy throughout the battle. It's also rather frail and doesn't get a lot of OHKO. Still a great Pokemon, don't get me wrong, but these flaws prevent it to be A+ in my book.
  • Gliscor
    fits A+ imo, it's rarely useless and all its sets do work. Sand Veil actually allows it to turn games around on a somewhat regular basis and it synergizes well with a bunch of Pokemons that makes its life easier (Jirachi/Clefable for example that can spread paralysis to abuse with Gliscor). Gliscor's teams in general are some of the most reliable/consistent one out there. Like Jirachee said, it's at the root of two of the "biggest" "problems" of the tier (GliscorPass and SVabuse), you could argue Gliscor is broken/uncompetitive in the right context and conditions.
  • Celebi
    has a lot of flaws that would make me drop it to A-. Taking full damages from every hazards, being Pursuit weak, quad U-turn weak and Spikes bait for Skarmory (and Roserade) is huge. The big problem with these flaws is that they put you in such a bad position for the whole game. Having to switch out of U-turn gives momentum to your opponent and God knows how much momentum is important in DPP. Allowing Skarmory to Spikes on your face puts you on a timer for the rest of your game/force you to Spin. I think these downsides are too important for Celebi to remain in A.
Some nitpicks based on my preferences:
  • Gyarados higher in the A rank, right above or below Lucario. Such a terrifying sweeper with a ton of coverage options to play around its checks. It also pairs ridiculously well with Pursuit Ttar to play around the most common of them (Starmie/Rotom).
  • I'd reorganize the A- rank a little bit. Roserade or Cune below Aerodactyl as 2nd/3rd (Roserade in particular is pretty much the best TSpiker of the tier and an OK Spiker too). Empoleon following these two, above Machamp (Empoleon is almost as good of an anti-lead and can provide SR/makes a deadly finisher on top of that). I have a hard time ranking Kingdra because I think DD is B-worthy while the RD sets are incredibly more dangerous and borderline A worthy. Agree with M Dragon on B+ for Forretress, the only thing I like about it is its ability to fuck with fat builds who rely on Ttar to "pseudo-spinblock" by killing Starmie and thus don't use a Rotom.
  • I'd move down Mamoswine and Jolteon to B.
  • I'd move down Vaporeon to B- (there are a lot of reasons that explains why it's almost not used at all these days).
  • I'd move up Weavile to B (coverage and speed are killers vs a lot of teams, especially with Mag support).
Finally, I'd argue Jirachi has a case for being the tier's best Pokemon over Tyranitar, but I'm not very opiniated on the matter. While Tyranitar shapes the tier like no other, Jirachi's weaknesses are harder to abuse and it has literally 0 sure-fire counters (unlike Tyranitar with Hippowdon).
 
#13
for your consideration: Spiritomb for C rank in lead

Tomb isn't the greatest lead in the world but Shadow Ball/Sneak/WoW/HP Fighting modest with Lum/Spell Tag dents most leads out there, lets Zelf only get up rocks, beats Machamp, WoWs loom if you run lum, limits fros to a layer of spikes and it can't dbond you at all, WoWs ttar, forces Starmie out, etc.
The problem with that, however, is that you don't really accomplish much since it doesn't U-turn scout or lay its own hazards (or prevent the opponent from getting them up). Vs Azelf, the opponent will see the priority from a mile away, so they'll either gladly sack it for the rocks or switch it out right away. I mean, switching in ScarfTar on it was always the best way to kill it quick (better if you bait the Taunt, which Spiritomb can't do obviously). No weather or Fake Out means it can't break sashes. It can't kill a lot of stuff leading, really. They'll gauge what kind of set it is, then switch accordingly. Say you burn Machamp and take its Lum. You go for another burn and they switch to Heatran and get a free FF boost.

The worst thing though is that it's a Ghost, which is taking valuable space and can't even block Rapid Spin effectively because of the set and EVs. Froslass itself at least does hazards.

Spiritomb as a lead is/was more of a UU thing. Too many hard hitters and those who set hazards easily in OU.
 
#14
man it just seems flat out wrong to have kingdra juxtaposed to suicune tbh. i rly dislike cune in general but kingdra ain't rly cuttin the a- bill for me. dd sets r bad b.c. they invite the omnipresent skarm in and allow it to ww or even spike+ww.. it's generally weak af. rd sets are cooler but it requires way more support and is way more linear than shit like machamp and roserade imo. i agree with glis in a+ tho-- it's definitely more reliable than flygon and u forgot to mention britscor in ur astute analysis which is surprisingly dece as well. aero ain't better than azelf since u choose ur suicide leads based on a variety of factors..... i'd say they're pretty equal and the better machamp matchup factor + fast boom ain't nothing to trifle with.. i mean aero gets the jump on azelf, but being better... ? big logical leaps goin on. i'd def rate azelf higher since it's way more versatile.. u never kno what it's gonna be running (it can even run 4 atks in the back) and u already kno aerodactyl is gonna be sash or a random ass white herb. not to mention band azelf which is p good esp in a tour environment. blissey ain't a- either tho marinara. no idea what u smokin. it's the most reliable sr'r in the tier and can hard wall a shitton of squads.. i remember bab usin it in tour and it owned the fuckin standard azelf/gyara/luc/meta/ttar/dnite squad soge loves reppin wit a few proper switches and twaves. mamoswine's more fitting for b instead of b+ imo as well but it's kinda nitpicky.. it's more of the level of dugtrio and quag than it is clefable and mag.
 
#15
Replying to everything McM, MDrag and Dice brought up:
Tbh I'd be happy with just S or sublevels of S like S-, but if we are going the full S route I'd definitely back Starmie and Zapdos for it, and I think other people have made it clear why.

McM I recognise your Gengar critiques but I have to point out that you're treating ScarfTar, Jirachi and Skarmory like full stops to Gengar when often they end up getting demolished by Substitute sets: imo Sub is a necessity for Gengar because SBall+FBlast is all the coverage you need while Sub gives you so much in taking on so many mons. Skarm does Spike on SubGar but at the cost of giving you free rein and Focus Blast does kill it in the long run, while ScarfTar is much more antsy about switching with Gengar now able to either withdraw or take 2 shots for a Focus Blast to the face. Additionally the SubWoW set compromises all its checks' (Scizor, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Jirachi) ability to do......just about anything really. The burn chip makes Skarm much more vulnerable to getting worn down by like Gyara/Tar/DNite/Loom/Scor etc while ScarfTar+Jira+Zor just realised their attacks are doing nothing (Burned Jira and Zor can't even break Gar's sub if you're running the right defensive investment). Nothing straight up walls it and it can play havoc with almost every team. Checking fighters while not getting trashed by ScarfTar is great too (cause there's no opportunity cost in Subbing on Nape/Loom). Definitely an A+ mon imo.

I support MDrag's proposal of moving down Bliss and Forre, both get trashed too easily in this metagame.

Celebi can drop: it's worse than a lot of the stuff in A, and though Pursuit - weak isn't the end of the world it does you no favors either. Imo aside from being the best Loom check in existence it's offensive set is an inferior version of Shaymin (has some edges on it though), while its defensive sets are set-up bait for some threatening mons.

Aero is just about the same level as Azelf as a lead, but Aero can do other things pretty effectively while Azelf can only really lead (imo LO Aero is probably better than the suicide lead set).

Mamoswine can drop, ambivalent on that. Jolt though.......I have no clue what McM was saying when he brought that up, Jolt is a killer on the right team and demolishes so much......if Weavile should move up for 'coverage and speed' then I don't see why Jolt should go down seeing how he brings that and more to the table.

Don't particularly care about anything else mentioned. This post was brief cause I'm on my phone and short for time. Peace
 
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#17
Same goes for Starmie regarding the Scarf Tyranitar weakness, McMeghan . Some of you may know that I usually bring no water resistances in DPP and probably wonder why I do so. First of all, Starmie is a really good Pokémon I wont deny that but it is extremely overrated. I am 10 times more scared by Kingdra, Empoleon and Suicune than a stupid Starmie that most of the times lacks either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. I'd rather have a Tyranitar (Scarf or Passho) or a tanky Jirachi than a Shaymin or Suicune that both are 2HKO'd by IBeam/Thunderbolt from a LO Starmie. Just my point of view, and I'd say my recent performances in DPP proved me right. Second thing, Starmie is weak to U-Turn which actually makes it "weak to Infernape" in a certain way. This will lead to my next point. To make it short, Starmie A+, definitely not S.

Infernape S Rank, all day. Infernape is the deadliest sweeper of the tier. I'm still amazed that a lot of people still haven't realized that Infernape is a guaranteed win 90% of the times. If you look closely to my DPP Cup games or Go10's SPL/Tour/WCop games, he and I won pretty much everytime with Infernape because no one brings real counters to it. What makes it so scary? Its Speed, Double Stab, and U-Turn. People think that Starmie is a safe counter to Infernape until they have their Heatran in front of an Infernape and take 200 seconds to stay in or send in Starmie on the possible U-Turn. Always hilarious to watch. I could also argue on the fact that most of the current Stall Teams (Heist's) are weak to NPlot Infernape. Infernape's only flaw is its weakness to all hazards, but I suppose that you're allowed to pair it up with a Spinner. Oh also, Rotom-W and Gengar are good checks if you want to RK it but because of U-Turn (yo Pursuiter behind) and because they are both OHKO'd by FireBlast/Flare Blitz, I'm not sure if you really want to consider these as "counters".

Gengar A+ and I would even argue about S Rank if you want my deepest opinion. Not sure if I really have to write an essay since it is just too obvious why Gengar should be A+/S Rank but because a highly respected player posted in Gengar's disfavor, I feel forced to explain my point. Gengar has no real counters and don't even try to argue about that because ScarfTyranitar is a thing. First of all, if you really want to revenge kill it with Ttar you pretty much have to sacrifice something because we all know you don't have the balls to send in your only real answer to Gengar on a Shadow Ball because your opponent could be smarter than belgian people and predict you with a Focus Blast. What if your opponent isn't belgian but french and decide to click Substitute on the switch when you brought your death fodder? What do you click? Forfeit. Gengar is also one of the best stallbreakers of the metagame thanks to Pain Split/Taunt and its resistances/immunities. Gengar also has access to Hypnomiss and Will O Wisp to get past its main counters/checks aka Scizor/Jirachi. No really, it's not because someone is admin that he's a good player XD (especially in DPP.............)

Skarmory, Breloom -> A Rank. I'm already bored of writing, but as much as I love those 2 I really don't think they are A+ Rank. They can either be extremely good or dead weights (mainly Breloom) which is why it bothers me to put them A+.

Empoleon -> A+. No seriously lol. If there's a Pokémon I'd bring a water resist for, it is definitely Empoleon.
 
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#18
I think the main issue with Infernape is that it's taking way too much residual damage (all hazards, LO, and weather), so even the resisted moves (even priority like BP) are deadly. Infernape has always been deadly to every team. Scarf is just icing on the cake too. However, why is probably not seen as S, is that you generally put it on offense/balance and have to do a little more work for fitting it on more stally teams. The others, including Rotom and Zapdos, are easily able to fit on to every playstyle.

*Edit*

I don't use scarf myself (I always go LO), but every time I face it, it have to get rid of it before the end game, otherwise it picks off stuff with good coverage and U-turn. Works well as the scarfer for the team because it outspeeds the 100s.
 
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#19
Gengar A+ and I would even argue about S Rank if you want my deepest opinion. Not sure if I really have to write an essay since it is just too obviouswhy Gengar should be A+/S Rank but because a highly respected player posted in Gengar's disfavor, I feel forced to explain my point. Gengar has no real counters and don't even try to argue about that because ScarfTyranitar is a thing. First of all, if you really want to revenge kill it with Ttar you pretty much have to sacrifice something because we all know you don't have the balls to send in your only real answer to Gengar on a Shadow Ball because your opponent could be smarter than belgian people and predict you with a Focus Blast. What if your opponent isn't belgian but french and decide to click Substitute on the switch when you brought your death fodder? What do you click? Forfeit. Gengar is also one of the best stallbreakers of the metagame thanks to Pain Split/Taunt and its resistances/immunities. Gengar also has access to Hypnomiss and Will O Wisp to get past its main counters/checks aka Scizor/Jirachi. No really, it's not because someone is admin that he's a good player XD (especially in DPP.............)
Agree on A+ but not necessarily on S considering it gets trapped by Ttar which is one of the most common mons in DPP and has to rely on Focus Blast hitting a lot of the time which can get pretty annoying at times. I do agree though, great mon with a lot of versatility. Never tried it as a stallbreaker, but it seems like it can be an issue for stall if it runs Taunt.

Lol, Belgians are not that dumb. French people...
 

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the Smogon Tour Season 14 Champion
#20
I don't think anybody considers Starmie as S-rank for its offensive capabilities, but because it's pretty much the only reliable Spinner of the tier, on top of having good offensive abilities. ScarfTtar (and PasshoTtar) is so popular because of Starmie. It has such a big importance in the hazard game that it's been the second most used Pokemon in DPP for all of Smogon Tour 19 (except the last week where it was 3rd) and it's currently 2nd in Smogon Tour 20's usage (3rd overall for Season 18). It's thanks to Starmie that you can make some set-up sweepers so much more threatening just because of a one-time Spin. While Starmie might only be A+ for the reasons you listed (aka an overrated sweeper, which I totally agree with), it has a case to stay in S for its support's prowess.

If you don't want it in S, you should make arguments as to why it's an unreliable spinner.
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Regarding Infernape, I'm sure nobody considers Starmie a "safe counter" to it. In fact, every seasonned DPP player will probably agree to say that Infernape actually does not have actual counters, and that's why it's in A+. Much like you can check Starmie without water resists, you can check Infernape without actual counters through a lot of other tools, such as passive damages (as you said, and let's not forget Flare Blitz and LO recoil here) and soft checks (Hippo/Starmie/Gyarados/Swampert/etc). In fact, I'm pretty sure I've seen a Stall team without a single Fire resist taking on CB Nape in one of the last round of the DPP Cup just thanks to Blitz recoil, SR and sand damages. IIRC, the game was Bab vs you.
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Gengar has no real counters and don't even try to argue about that because ScarfTyranitar is a thing. First of all, if you really want to revenge kill it with Ttar you pretty much have to sacrifice something because we all know you don't have the balls to send in your only real answer to Gengar on a Shadow Ball because your opponent could be smarter than belgian people and predict you with a Focus Blast.
Epic callout aside, prediction is a two way street and as a matter of fact, Tyranitar does actually ruin LO's Gengar life. There is always the option to send it on Shadow Ball/Pain Split, or you could just sack your current Pokemon to get a free switch-in for Tyranitar. Gengar's main offensive option outside of Shadow Ball is the ever so unreliable Focus Blast. I remember the bab saying about an Hypnosis Gengar squad: "When Hypnosis hits, I usually win, when it doesn't, I lose." and that pretty much sums up Gengar. You mention WoW/Hypnosis as great ways to play around its checks, and I'm starting to see a trend here, all of Gengar's options are just not reliable.

When you think about it, let's say you play perfectly with your Gengar and has to rely on Hypnosis or Focus Blast to win the game. You will lose 1 game out of 3 (roughly) because statistically speaking, you will miss Focus Blast 30% of the time and Hypnosis 40% of the time (and who doesn't have stories about missing these moves like 4 times in a row lol).

Add to that the natural frailty of Gengar coupled with the fact that it struggles with the best Pokemon of the tier (Jirachi*) and you have the reasons why I think it's A rank. Definitly has a case for A+, but certainly not obvious either.

*Talking about Jirachi, SpDef Jirachi is an hard counter to Sub PainSplit Gengar, and if Gengar lacks Sub or Pain Split to play around Jirachi with WoW, then it will lack the move to protect itself from ScarfTar (Sub) or the one that'll allow it to play around residual damages from Sand and LO (Pain Split).
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Would consider commenting on Skarm/Breloom/Empoleon but since no arguments were made, there is nothing to talk about in the first place.

Oh and in my case, I'm pretty sure I'm an excellent player on top of being an admin, even in DPP!
If you think my opinion is not worth shit because you've had better results than me in the tier, we might as well just all stop posting here and wait for the Bab to dictate us the rankings as the DPP Cup winner and overlord.
 
#22
Time for Satan's favorite infidel's opinions on lots of stuff. He's still lost in slump city so please forgive him for any opinions that may seem like they were formed in la-la land
Also never used gallade but just one thing to say is now most of machamp are focus sash and aero are power herb and sometimes azelf is colbur berry to handle machamp in some offensives teams and for the sd late game sweeper lucario is definitively better for this so i think he should drop to C+
Gallade beats Sash Champ, Payback doesn't kill. You might even flinch with Zen Headbutt. Power Herb Aero is fair enough but you can't really take that into account. Azelf loses to CC + Shadow Sneak, it's the CB variants you have to watch out for.

for your consideration: Spiritomb for C rank in lead
Tomb isn't the greatest lead in the world but Shadow Ball/Sneak/WoW/HP Fighting modest with Lum/Spell Tag dents most leads out there, lets Zelf only get up rocks, beats Machamp, WoWs loom if you run lum, limits fros to a layer of spikes and it can't dbond you at all, WoWs ttar, forces Starmie out, etc.
A la UU! It sounds fun. I'd be more tempted to pull an august and use HP Ground though since like you said you'd rather burn Ttar. I'll give it a shot and probably add it at some point. Aerodactyl Legend makes good points and a lot of leads send it scurrying - Empoleon, Zapdos, 4 attack Lum Gross (not to mention even if it's SR Lum you have to hit WoW twice and are taking damage from Meteor Mash you don't get back, yuck) - but I think it deserves a spot. Against Azelf it's probably not too hard to predict the switch out from Sneak (and they might suspect Pursuit).

I don't think Zapdos belongs to the S-rank at all. It's much less versatile than the current S-rank Pokemons and doesn't serve an unique purpose like Starmie (spinning) or Rotom (spinblocking). I'd even consider putting Rotom over Zapdos because it represents the metagame that much more to me (one of the most common scarfer and most used spinblocker).
I think Zap is a lot more versatile than people give it credit for. Its offensive sets already have a lot of ways they can swing, and then you get into its supporting capabilities, which includes being able to run a defensive set on either side of the spectrum with a ton of great options. I remember Snype using Sub Roost with BP over Toxic/HP Ice, and it was great. Not that it's suddenly going to be OHKOing Blisseys and Hippowdons, but it isn't nearly as limited as most people think.

Rotom might be more iconic but overall it doesn't quite perform at the same level. I think the second A+ is fine for it.
Gengar
is more suited to A than A+ to me. ScarfTtar is just too present in DPP to make Gengar as reliable as you want it to be. Jirachi is everywhere too and it always checks Gengar in a pinch. SpDef Skarm, another tier favorite, checks all the Tbolt/Taunt-less variants, and these variants have troubles staying healthy throughout the battle. It's also rather frail and doesn't get a lot of OHKO. Still a great Pokemon, don't get me wrong, but these flaws prevent it to be A+ in my book.
I grudgingly agree, although I must point out that while facing Scarftar (the only Tar variant that can safely get rid of Gar! all the DD/CB/mix/whatever other funky sets are dead in the water) isn't exactly what the Gar user wants, it's something they have in mind and will take advantage of - not to mention getting it in isn't exactly easy. Getting Gar Pursuited by Scarftar and then getting swept right back by Luke is the oldest trick in the book. Also, I fucking love when Gengar switches into Scarftar EQ/Superpower because that's 2 kills before they even have another shot at revenging it.

On the subject of SDef Skarm: it can't even switch safely into LO Focus Blast with SR up, discounting accuracy it's a ~98% chance to get 2HKOed after Leftovers. Switching into anything else for a one-on-one, yeah it wins unless Gar gets very lucky, it's an ~8% chance to 2HKO from full through Lefties. Nitpicking though, Skarm is one of the better checks for sure, just realizing that a lot of people (myself included) are weaker to Gar than they realize and some smart users (like am, he always got a ton of mileage out of it) take advantage. Anyway yes, Will-o-Wisp completely cripples it and I've never been too bothered about not healing because while it isn't great although I've never found those sets' being worn down as an issue, not as much as being wary of Scarf Pursuit or hitting attacks at least (almost nothing scarier than an accurate Hypnosis Gar). Gar remains in A.

Celebi
has a lot of flaws that would make me drop it to A-. Taking full damages from every hazards, being Pursuit weak, quad U-turn weak and Spikes bait for Skarmory (and Roserade) is huge. The big problem with these flaws is that they put you in such a bad position for the whole game. Having to switch out of U-turn gives momentum to your opponent and God knows how much momentum is important in DPP. Allowing Skarmory to Spikes on your face puts you on a timer for the rest of your game/force you to Spin. I think these downsides are too important for Celebi to remain in A.
I think if you drop Cele, you drop Shay. Seed Flare, no Pursuit weak, no Shadow Ball weak, U-turn weak isn't as bad, yes yes I know and of course Shay is overall better. However, Cele has a lot of tools over it - Fight resist, Psychic resist (Superachi), Recover, U-turn, Calm Mind is a much better sweeper than GrowthMin, Trick for the Scarf set, Thunder Wave which no Ground-type wants to switch in on when paired with HP Ice. That's not even my main argument though, it's that the same things that beat Cele tend to be similarly effective against Shay. In fact, I've seen Celebi deal with U-turns more effectively than Shaymin because the latter can't heal up as fast and thus the hit leaves a more lasting impact. Cele is also not exactly easy to Pursuit, I think I've seen more Scarftar snipe fleeing ~half-health offensive Shaymin (and defensive doesn't love taking hits either because again, recovery issues - Rest is alright, but...) than most Cele (who tend to be bulked out). That said, I think they're both fine where they are, but I think they go together with Shay slightly above it.
Gyarados higher in the A rank, right above or below Lucario. Such a terrifying sweeper with a ton of coverage options to play around its checks. It also pairs ridiculously well with Pursuit Ttar to play around the most common of them (Starmie/Rotom).
Gyara is terrifying and I've been feeling the old ResTalker again lately, but its SR weakness means that in sand you can chip away at it pretty easily to finish it off with priority or your Scarfer (obv doesn't apply if their fastest dude is Scarftar, in which case Gyara is usually extremely dangerous if it's got Taunt which unfortunately is rarer now). No denying how dangerous it is especially early game with SR on the opponent's side and Wacan, but I don't think it's quite there, it just barely falls short.

I'd reorganize the A- rank a little bit. Roserade or Cune below Aerodactyl as 2nd/3rd (Roserade in particular is pretty much the best TSpiker of the tier and an OK Spiker too). Empoleon following these two, above Machamp (Empoleon is almost as good of an anti-lead and can provide SR/makes a deadly finisher on top of that). I have a hard time ranking Kingdra because I think DD is B-worthy while the RD sets are incredibly more dangerous and borderline A worthy. Agree with M Dragon on B+ for Forretress, the only thing I like about it is its ability to fuck with fat builds who rely on Ttar to "pseudo-spinblock" by killing Starmie and thus don't use a Rotom.
I agree about all those guys being strong but the reason I don't want to move them up is because of Machamp's incredible ability to put the fear of the devil in anyone not running Spiritomb/a Slow twin. I can't emphasize enough how much of a fucker he is. As much as I like it, I wouldn't rank Rose that high. I wish we could transfer its defense boost from gen 6 back by 2 gens...

Forretress I could maybe get behind, but all the Swampert/Hippo + Skarm shit I see is begging Forret to sit on it. After picking it up again recently, I think it's just good enough to be the last A- poke, although putting it in B+ wouldn't kill anyone if it comes to that. I ragged on it as much as anyone but it really puts pressure on those semistalls like little else can and as you said with Rade, TS are amazing - plus, he gets way easier setup than Rose against the bulky ground dudes cause she's 2HKOed and he sits in all day (I do think a +Def nature is required though so they can't just hit you a few times and call it a day). Explosion is underrated on it as well, makes it a nice way for defensive teams to deal with Gyara/Kingdra/Nite/Ape/Gon. It'd be really funny to get 5 layers of spikes on CM Clef and then bomb it. For now, it'll stay.

I'd move down Mamoswine and Jolteon to B.
Mamo has a lot of issues, there's no denying that... but fuck he's so strong. LO (preferably Adamant although sometimes you will need Jolly unfortunately) Shard / EQ / SE / Superpower crushes everything besides Skarm, whose SDef set doesn't want to take the latter two attacks when at low health. Mag's shooting up in popularity because of Glis but I think it helps Mamo out a hell of a lot as well. That said its issues are pretty big but it's got so much wrecking potential that I don't have the heart to drop it just yet. I'll play around with it.

On Jolteon, I am definitely more adamant about it staying. It'll blow up a lot of teams by virtue of strong STAB TBolt like our pal Zapdos does, I daresay possibly even more because of its incredible speed putting it ahead of a lot of pokes that try to revenge Zapdos - Scarftar, Starmie, Gengar, Infernape. It even outruns Adamant +1 Gyara/Nite! Okay, it's a good deal weaker, not nearly as bulky, doesn't have ground immune, yadda yadda. However, what it does have is Volt Absorb, and thus the ability to check Zapdos. That's a big deal. It doesn't even have to go Specs/LO (Magnet?), my favorite sets have been Wish variants. Of course, Specs TBolt never gets old. Oh and Baton Pass means it can avoid every Pursuit in OU unlike big bird and another guy, Rotom. Nothing like Subbing on the Tar switch and BPing to Luc.

I'd move down Vaporeon to B- (there are a lot of reasons that explains why it's almost not used at all these days).
I agree that Vap was the poke possibly hit hardest by the Breloom/bulky Starmie surge, but it still has its way with a lot of offense like no other. Being one of the hardest counters to Empoleon, RD Kingdra and DD Gyara is amazing. I don't think it quite deserves B- but I'm open to this for sure.

I'd move up Weavile to B (coverage and speed are killers vs a lot of teams, especially with Mag support).
I will probably do this after I play around with it some more. My only issue is I wish it could fit 5 moves - it wants all of Shard, Ice Punch, Low Kick, Night Slash and Pursuit.
Finally, I'd argue Jirachi has a case for being the tier's best Pokemon over Tyranitar, but I'm not very opiniated on the matter. While Tyranitar shapes the tier like no other, Jirachi's weaknesses are harder to abuse and it has literally 0 sure-fire counters (unlike Tyranitar with Hippowdon).
Even Hippo dies to two CB Aqua Tails!

I'm a Tar guy but I would like to see more on this.

man it just seems flat out wrong to have kingdra juxtaposed to suicune tbh. i rly dislike cune in general but kingdra ain't rly cuttin the a- bill for me. dd sets r bad b.c. they invite the omnipresent skarm in and allow it to ww or even spike+ww.. it's generally weak af. rd sets are cooler but it requires way more support and is way more linear than shit like machamp and roserade imo.
Don't forget Specs! Your average non-Bliss defensive team (which still isn't usually the first switch) gets absolutely shredded by it without the need to set up and then still be annoyed by dumb Tar. The choice between Timid and Modest makes me cry but it's still really strong. Anyway these two sets, along with having to respect DD (which isn't terrible alongside RD), makes it fine in the versatility department, similar to other pokes in the rank. Plus its RD set is just... destructive beyond words.
aero ain't better than azelf since u choose ur suicide leads based on a variety of factors..... i'd say they're pretty equal and the better machamp matchup factor + fast boom ain't nothing to trifle with.. i mean aero gets the jump on azelf, but being better... ? big logical leaps goin on. i'd def rate azelf higher since it's way more versatile.. u never kno what it's gonna be running (it can even run 4 atks in the back) and u already kno aerodactyl is gonna be sash or a random ass white herb. not to mention band azelf which is p good esp in a tour environment.
I think Azelf's best attribute is that it doesn't invite Starmie in for immediate Spin mindgames. As a lead, it's better (it can even fuck Aero over with TrickScarf!), as a non-lead Aero is way better but also has issues. So yes I agree that they're ranked correct-ish.
blissey ain't a- either tho marinara. no idea what u smokin. it's the most reliable sr'r in the tier and can hard wall a shitton of squads.. i remember bab usin it in tour and it owned the fuckin standard azelf/gyara/luc/meta/ttar/dnite squad soge loves reppin wit a few proper switches and twaves.
I don't think it's the best SRer and there are so many games I use Bliss in where I feel it's chipped at/taken advantage of so damn easily (and makes me wish I were running Clef with the same set), but it shuts down so much shit that I agree it pretty much has to stay in A because who doesn't enjoy free wins against RD Kingdra + Empoleon teams.

Same goes for Starmie regarding the Scarf Tyranitar weakness, McMeghan . Some of you may know that I usually bring no water resistances in DPP and probably wonder why I do so. First of all, Starmie is a really good Pokémon I wont deny that but it is extremely overrated. I am 10 times more scared by Kingdra, Empoleon and Suicune than a stupid Starmie that most of the times lacks either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. I'd rather have a Tyranitar (Scarf or Passho) or a tanky Jirachi than a Shaymin or Suicune that both are 2HKO'd by IBeam/Thunderbolt from a LO Starmie. Just my point of view, and I'd say my recent performances in DPP proved me right. Second thing, Starmie is weak to U-Turn which actually makes it "weak to Infernape" in a certain way. This will lead to my next point. To make it short, Starmie A+, definitely not S.
I think the bulky sets are overrated because people are incapable of playing with hazards on their side of the field and thus switch it willy-nilly into Skarm, Pert, everything, I see Starmies sac themselves against others just to get a spin off on turn 10. If they were played with more restraint and not in a "get rid of hazards at all costs" mindset, they would be a lot better at both spinning and at Star's forgotten talents, breaking open holes and/or taking people to the cleaners lategame. LO is simply terrifying still, I agree that a lot of people are in for unpleasant surprises when switching Rose/Shay/Tar in when it pops up again. Overall Star's impact on the meta is so huge and I don't think I can drop it because people play it like morons, especially switching it into Infernape willy-nilly as you said.

Infernape S Rank, all day. Infernape is the deadliest sweeper of the tier. I'm still amazed that a lot of people still haven't realized that Infernape is a guaranteed win 90% of the times. If you look closely to my DPP Cup games or Go10's SPL/Tour/WCop games, he and I won pretty much everytime with Infernape because no one brings real counters to it. What makes it so scary? Its Speed, Double Stab, and U-Turn. People think that Starmie is a safe counter to Infernape until they have their Heatran in front of an Infernape and take 200 seconds to stay in or send in Starmie on the possible U-Turn. Always hilarious to watch. I could also argue on the fact that most of the current Stall Teams (Heist's) are weak to NPlot Infernape. Infernape's only flaw is its weakness to all hazards, but I suppose that you're allowed to pair it up with a Spinner. Oh also, Rotom-W and Gengar are good checks if you want to RK it but because of U-Turn (yo Pursuiter behind) and because they are both OHKO'd by FireBlast/Flare Blitz, I'm not sure if you really want to consider these as "counters".
The Heatran v. Infernape scenario you described is why I like to use Chople on Tran. Anyway I agree Ape is terrifying with the right support (which is very little and nothing out of the ordinary), his checks bar Nidoqueen, Hippowdon, Swampert and Gliscor have the same issues Loom's do: SR, Pursuit, U-turn (which Ape uses himself!) and being annoyed by sand. You'll notice that the the latter three aren't really great checks since special mix just unloads on them and I agree, however that set forgoes U-turn which makes it so dangerous (and Mach has a lot of nice utility checking dangerous sweepers) and makes Starmie not a great switchin (not that throwing out GK immediately is bad because people will go to Pert/Hippo a lot too, but it's just not the same).

I'm not a fan of setup Ape but I agree that a lot of teams would get run through should it grab a boost. Sometimes I like to use Tenta alongside Ape instead of Starmie to make sure TS don't rain on my parade. I've also been thinking about not using LO because those stalls you mentioned are often just gonna try to switch around, wearing it down that way.

So to the part where I don't think it's quite S although I'm definitely considering it higher in A+ now... it's not even that it's frail, Ape switches in a lot more easily than you'd think, surprisingly. However, it isn't exactly shrugging off resisted hits with impunity, it sometimes has to predict a hell of a lot to get things done, and can't pack all the moves that it wants in addition to getting worn down really quickly. It's why I like EBelt on special Mixape a lot. This isn't to say it's not an incredible poke, it is and is pretty defining, but it just doesn't have those game-in game-out performances that the S rank does, although it can certainly match any of them in terms of being explosive.
Gengar A+ and I would even argue about S Rank if you want my deepest opinion. ... Gengar has no real counters and don't even try to argue about that because ScarfTyranitar is a thing. First of all, if you really want to revenge kill it with Ttar you pretty much have to sacrifice something because we all know you don't have the balls to send in your only real answer to Gengar on a Shadow Ball because your opponent could be smarter than belgian people and predict you with a Focus Blast. What if your opponent ... decide to click Substitute on the switch when you brought your death fodder? What do you click? Forfeit. Gengar is also one of the best stallbreakers of the metagame thanks to Pain Split/Taunt and its resistances/immunities. Gengar also has access to Hypnomiss and Will O Wisp to get past its main counters/checks aka Scizor/Jirachi.
S is kind of a stretch but yeah this explains why Gengar is amazing pretty well. If your offensive team has a Tar like it tends to and it isn't Scarf, odds are Gar is gonna bust you up a good amount and even Scarftar isn't the end-all be-all.
Skarmory, Breloom -> A Rank. I'm already bored of writing, but as much as I love those 2 I really don't think they are A+ Rank. They can either be extremely good or dead weights (mainly Breloom) which is why it bothers me to put them A+.
I'll just c/p my Breloom argument from the end of the old thread
Breloom needs to stay in A+, it is not hit or miss at all. There is nothing that so easily and consistently threatens defensive teams while still giving you a buffer against dangerous offensive pokes like oh I don't know, Tyranitar's STABs... and the LO Aero that 6-0es everyone. Not to mention Mach Punch checks a fuckload of threatening guys, like DDtar, Emp, AgiliLuc, ScarfTran). Plus, a lot of offense falls back on Swampert as a glue for Zap/ScarfTran/Tar/etc and there's Loom's free entry. You're still effective against offense, just not as much as against slower dudes obviously. For the later gen guys, liken it to BW2/ORAS Landorus against offense, except Loom's a decent bit better. Against a bulky team it comes in so easily, it's SR resistant and heals in sand despite being affected by it. This is so big - you cannot rely on mostly passive damage to play around it like you do a lot of pokes, and you can't even revenge it with Scarftar reliably because of Mach. All its defensive checks have crippling issues - SR, Pursuit, and U-turn. None of them are sand immune either. The only exception to this is Aerial Ace/Impish Ice Fang Gliscor, but that's pretty niche and you still have to sac something to sleep before sending it in - plus, no Restalker is a good response to Loom. Please keep it in A+, he's one of a kind.
As for Skarm; some players/teams overwhelm him with little effort, but he's just so good that even when he's a "dead weight" he's still got use. Plus when he's on, little is more annoying to deal with. I think he should stay but more opinions are welcome

Empoleon -> A+. No seriously lol. If there's a Pokémon I'd bring a water resist for, it is definitely Empoleon.
Emp tears a lot of common water resists up too! I love penguin but he has a few issues.

First, the lead set. I don't think Aqua Jet is necessary cause it's terribly weak and any good player will switch their low HP poke out of it, and Emp really likes the coverage brought by IB + GK. I tried 4 attack Emp a lot, forgoing SR, but it does not have good synergy with the best SR pokes, and Aqua Jet was just not that good, plus there were a lot of games where I'd have really liked the turn 1 SR. What I did like about it was that I didn't have to decide between getting SR and being pretty much 6-5 down or basically 5-5 with no SR. I think the best way to do it is to run SR 3 attacks with another poke having SR so in those SR-or-kill scenarios you take the KO knowing you can still SR later while being free to SR against Hippo and Pert turn 1, but you're not always going to be able to fit it, and there's still the whole synergy ordeal.

Then there's Agility. Obviously this dude is amazing but too often he gets played around by non-water resists. He can't outrun Scarf Rotom unless he goes Timid, in which case he has even more issues getting played around. Resist berries are cool but he can't have all of them, LO makes him die a lot although SDef Skarm stalling him is now a thing of the past. SubPetaya is super good, I like him the most, but sometimes the lack of coverage will bite. This makes it sound like I don't think Empoleon is a gg machine, which is totally is, but I don't think he's out-and-out consistent enough to hang in A.
I don't think anybody considers Starmie as S-rank for its offensive capabilities, but because it's pretty much the only reliable Spinner of the tier, on top of having good offensive abilities. ScarfTtar (and PasshoTtar) is so popular because of Starmie. It has such a big importance in the hazard game that it's been the second most used Pokemon in DPP for all of Smogon Tour 19 (except the last week where it was 3rd) and it's currently 2nd in Smogon Tour 20's usage (3rd overall for Season 18). It's thanks to Starmie that you can make some set-up sweepers so much more threatening just because of a one-time Spin. While Starmie might only be A+ for the reasons you listed (aka an overrated sweeper, which I totally agree with), it has a case to stay in S for its support's prowess.
If you don't want it in S, you should make arguments as to why it's an unreliable spinner.
I agree with the spinning points but I don't think it's an overrated sweeper because no one actually tries to sweep with it since they're so anal about hazards going up. Hold your Starmie back and let it loose lategame, it'll rip shit apart, or if you send it out midgame focus on blasting shit rather than spinning at all costs. The lategame thing goes for Suicune as well who gets misused quite a bit.
Gengar's main offensive option outside of Shadow Ball is the ever so unreliable Focus Blast. I remember the bab saying about an Hypnosis Gengar squad: "When Hypnosis hits, I usually win, when it doesn't, I lose." and that pretty much sums up Gengar. You mention WoW/Hypnosis as great ways to play around its checks, and I'm starting to see a trend here, all of Gengar's options are just not reliable.

When you think about it, let's say you play perfectly with your Gengar and has to rely on Hypnosis or Focus Blast to win the game. You will lose 1 game out of 3 (roughly) because statistically speaking, you will miss Focus Blast 30% of the time and Hypnosis 40% of the time (and who doesn't have stories about missing these moves like 4 times in a row lol).
Unfortunately, this is accurate, unlike Gengar.
Add to that the natural frailty of Gengar coupled with the fact that it struggles with the best Pokemon of the tier (Jirachi*) and you have the reasons why I think it's A rank. Definitly has a case for A+, but certainly not obvious either.

*Talking about Jirachi, SpDef Jirachi is an hard counter to Sub PainSplit Gengar, and if Gengar lacks Sub or Pain Split to play around Jirachi with WoW, then it will lack the move to protect itself from ScarfTar (Sub) or the one that'll allow it to play around residual damages from Sand and LO (Pain Split).
Well WispGar runs Black Sludge/Leftovers and I don't think I've ever seen that Gar dealt with by forcing it to take SR in sand a bunch of times. Split is definitely not necessary, Taunt's the other move you might give up on. But overall yeah.

Good discussions, lol :P
 
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#23
I grudgingly agree, although I must point out that while facing Scarftar (the only Tar variant that can safely get rid of Gar! all the DD/CB/mix/whatever other funky sets are dead in the water) isn't exactly what the Gar user wants, it's something they have in mind and will take advantage of - not to mention getting it in isn't exactly easy. Getting Gar Pursuited by Scarftar and then getting swept right back by Luke is the oldest trick in the book. Also, I fucking love when Gengar switches into Scarftar EQ/Superpower because that's 2 kills before they even have another shot at revenging it.

On the subject of SDef Skarm: it can't even switch safely into LO Focus Blast with SR up, discounting accuracy it's a ~98% chance to get 2HKOed after Leftovers. Switching into anything else for a one-on-one, yeah it wins unless Gar gets very lucky, it's an ~8% chance to 2HKO from full through Lefties. Nitpicking though, Skarm is one of the better checks for sure, just realizing that a lot of people (myself included) are weaker to Gar than they realize and some smart users (like am, he always got a ton of mileage out of it) take advantage. Anyway yes, Will-o-Wisp completely cripples it and I've never been too bothered about not healing because while it isn't great although I've never found those sets' being worn down as an issue, not as much as being wary of Scarf Pursuit or hitting attacks at least (almost nothing scarier than an accurate Hypnosis Gar). Gar remains in A

Good discussions, lol :P
I still back Gengar for A+ but seeing as how my only ally is a Frenchman I think I'll let it go for the time being. Just gonna say that it is the top of A, and would easily make A+ if Focus Blast had 10% more accuracy.

Infernape is such a threat...........but not S worthy. Not having any real counters doesn't qualify you for S (it usually just gets you banned.......anyone up to suspect Nape?). For real though, all of the S rank mons can swing to a defensive role in a way that Nape shouldn't even try. Gets worn down way to easily from switching in, and is over reliant on prediction (cause Chople Tran exists and Gliscor, Nido and Gyara take a free switch - in off U-Turn). U-Turn in itself trades your longevity for immediate opportunity as coming in on SR again and again really hurts (especially with LO). Definitely a monster and should be higher up in A+, but not S.

I also agree with how Starmie gets misused in the form of sacrificing it to get the spin off (which is usually a really short - sighted move cause chances are that the Spiker will just come right back in and your nightmare will begin again). Attacking turn 1 with Starmie is probably as much a necessity as Subbing turn 1 with Gengar - chances are your Spin will just bounce off of Rotom-A and he's got the momentum.

Speaking of Rotom-A, imo it should be behind Zapdos after some thinking. Rotom-A is a major face of the OU metagame but again compared to Zapdos it's a lot more of a utility player, spinblocking and revenging rather than actually attacking, while Zapdos can carry games off of TBolt Spam. Pursuit weak and tendency to get worn down also blows with ScarfTar everywhere, and Starmie/Forretress starting to attack the switch - in after reading this post. Specs and SubSplit sets are amazing but not as consistent (and they're also more vulnerable to TTar).

Emp feels kinda overrated to me, I will not dispute it is an amazing lead and killer sweeper but it has a ton of issues that hold it back in my mind from being A even, let alone A+. It could move up above Champ though, which is one of the scariest mons around but again only really works as a Lead in a game where leads are graded on their ability to beat it (among other things).
 
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The main problem I have with gengar is that it doesn't actually OHKO a lot of stuff which causes it trouble when sweeping.

It's also not a great revenge killer, because it's so vulnerable to pursuit.

If you want to abuse choice users and wreck havoc in the mid game then Gengar is the guy.

But if they never lock into eq or they don't have a breloom, Gengar can end up sitting at the back of the squad twidling his thumbs and like I said he'll struggle to sweep.

Great poke, always scary to face. But it has it's fair share of flaws.

Infernape for S rank though for the opposite of above, unpredictable, sweeps, great revenge killer, very hard to gain momentum against an infernape.
 
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