No word on my set?
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Dragonite (Analysis)
- Thread starter lulzer
- Start date
While working on the Dragon Dance analysis: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84323, I realize that ESpeed would actually be a cool move on the offensive DD set (bulky DD doesn't really have any room for it). Currently, I'm testing:
Conservative Offensive DD
Standard EVs, Adamant, Leftovers
- Dragon Claw
- ExtremeSpeed
- Fire Punch
- Dragon Dance
It works well in "countering" a lot of the problems that normal DDs have such as scarfed revengers, Erufuun, and to a lesser extent, Ditto and perm weather. Dragon Claw is chosen because Outrage forces you to come in late in the game after steels are gone. Here, it offers a lot more flexibility while giving up less (significant) power. ESpeed will ensure that Kingdra, Ditto, and Dory will take damage before they kill Dnite giving you an easier time to revenge. This is especially pertinent with Ditto as you will break his multi-scale. All mischievous heart users with the exception Sableye will also be hurt greatly by ESpeed.
Conservative Offensive DD
Standard EVs, Adamant, Leftovers
- Dragon Claw
- ExtremeSpeed
- Fire Punch
- Dragon Dance
It works well in "countering" a lot of the problems that normal DDs have such as scarfed revengers, Erufuun, and to a lesser extent, Ditto and perm weather. Dragon Claw is chosen because Outrage forces you to come in late in the game after steels are gone. Here, it offers a lot more flexibility while giving up less (significant) power. ESpeed will ensure that Kingdra, Ditto, and Dory will take damage before they kill Dnite giving you an easier time to revenge. This is especially pertinent with Ditto as you will break his multi-scale. All mischievous heart users with the exception Sableye will also be hurt greatly by ESpeed.
Dragonite does not learn Swords Dance by any means.
I like the idea of making a Batton Pass reciever set, just like Octillery had last gen.
I like the idea of making a Batton Pass reciever set, just like Octillery had last gen.
Rhys DeAnno
Slacking Off
With regards to Offensive DD: Adamant Dory is pretty rare, you could run Adamant @ 250 Speed to outrun Scarfchomp at +2 instead (which still outruns base 120s at +1 and the entire universe at +3), and have a little more power to help dent walls at +1 or +2.
EDIT: I meant 250 Speed total instead of 250 EVs, sorry I was unclear (I remembered offhand that it needed 500 Speed at +2 but forgot exactly how many EVs that was.)
EDIT: I meant 250 Speed total instead of 250 EVs, sorry I was unclear (I remembered offhand that it needed 500 Speed at +2 but forgot exactly how many EVs that was.)
Keep in mind that the analyses all pertain to Standard OU instead of Dream World. I couldn't but feel a bit intreagued about the mentions of Ditto and other Dream Wprld pokemon throughout the bullet point analysis.
Rhys DeAnno
Slacking Off
You still have Jolly listed as the nature on Offensive DD, but with 216 EVs trying to outrun Scarchomp you go Adamant. As for those last 40 EVs, I think HP is the logical place, as investing in Def or SpD is much less efficient given Dnite's base stats.
I don't know how some of the others think, but I feel there are too many sets on the page. Yeah, his movepool is diverse, but it seems a little too early for this many sets (especially when some of them are similiar). More of preference, really.
I'm mainly looking at the 'Rain Attacking' sets. I just don't think two sets are needed for taking advantage of rain (though one is needed since Rain teams are so abundant). There are enough options that you can't just easily mold the two sets together by slashing all moves, so if others (or the QC Team) think it's fine, then so be it.
I also think the Dragon Slayer is unnecessary since he can kill other Dragons easily with the other sets. I still don't like the idea of a Scarf Dragonite as he's much slower than other dragons (who are highly likely to carry Scarfs themselves). Stealth Rocks also makes the set very hit-or-miss. Not much use for it when you already have the Special and Mixed sets. Again, my opinion.
I'm mainly looking at the 'Rain Attacking' sets. I just don't think two sets are needed for taking advantage of rain (though one is needed since Rain teams are so abundant). There are enough options that you can't just easily mold the two sets together by slashing all moves, so if others (or the QC Team) think it's fine, then so be it.
I also think the Dragon Slayer is unnecessary since he can kill other Dragons easily with the other sets. I still don't like the idea of a Scarf Dragonite as he's much slower than other dragons (who are highly likely to carry Scarfs themselves). Stealth Rocks also makes the set very hit-or-miss. Not much use for it when you already have the Special and Mixed sets. Again, my opinion.
Don't kill yourself Lulzer; when the only problem with an analysis is that there are too many sets, you know you're doing something right. Here are my suggestions:
1. Combine Mixed Attacking Lead & Mixed Attacker
Just show an alternate set of EVs since both sets use the same moves more or less.
2. Have only one special attacking set
Probably just use the rain one
3. Combine DD sets
Again, just show alternate movepool and EV spread. You'll have to do quite a bit of explaining though to ensure readers understand the difference in playstyle between the two possibilities.
I'm not sure if we should get rid of the Dragon Slayer set overall, but perhaps make it more generalized by calling it a scarfed set or something of that sort.
1. Combine Mixed Attacking Lead & Mixed Attacker
Just show an alternate set of EVs since both sets use the same moves more or less.
2. Have only one special attacking set
Probably just use the rain one
3. Combine DD sets
Again, just show alternate movepool and EV spread. You'll have to do quite a bit of explaining though to ensure readers understand the difference in playstyle between the two possibilities.
I'm not sure if we should get rid of the Dragon Slayer set overall, but perhaps make it more generalized by calling it a scarfed set or something of that sort.
yeah im not sure on the Dragon Slayer Set either. Dragonite is slow and while Multi-Scale lets it take hits SR will limit your defensive capabilities and personally I would rather use a Scarf Salamence (if I was going for a mixed scarf attacker) or even something like Garchomp/Latias. Also with Dragonite running so much defensive EVs your overall power output is lower on anything else you want to revenge. I just think its not worth it imo
I agree with the above posts. There are to many sets. People will get far to confused looking for the set they want. Take off the non lead mixed attacking set, the rain mixed set, and the special attacker set (Special new Dragon pokes outclasses this). I personally think you should put the offensive DD set in AC for the bulky DD set. A certain pokemon we all know does that set so much better.
Could someone please test my set? IMO it definitely deserves to be in the analysis.
I disagree that the bulky DD and special sets are outclassed by others. The special rain set is very unique to Dragonite due to its ability to have Hurricane, Thunder, and multi-scale. The latter makes it easier to use Agility should it be desired.
Offensive DD is not outclassed for three reasons. First, multi-scale is more general than intimidate which means DNite can take a hit from the physical or special side (granted, a few things need to happen such as no rocks and Leftovers). This gives it almost a guaranteed DD. Second, it is able to use Fire Punch instead of Fire Blast in the DD set which is safer and capitalizes on the increase in Attack. Finally, it has ESpeed (which I think should be added to the DD set) allowing it to be an emergency revenge killer since Adamant + 252 Atk EVs ESpeed should be able to finish off weakened enemies. Moreover, Espeed allows it to come on top of stupid Mischievous Heart pokemon (except Sableye) as well as a way out of paralysis. It also will break Ditto's multiscale before DNite is taken down.
Offensive DD is not outclassed for three reasons. First, multi-scale is more general than intimidate which means DNite can take a hit from the physical or special side (granted, a few things need to happen such as no rocks and Leftovers). This gives it almost a guaranteed DD. Second, it is able to use Fire Punch instead of Fire Blast in the DD set which is safer and capitalizes on the increase in Attack. Finally, it has ESpeed (which I think should be added to the DD set) allowing it to be an emergency revenge killer since Adamant + 252 Atk EVs ESpeed should be able to finish off weakened enemies. Moreover, Espeed allows it to come on top of stupid Mischievous Heart pokemon (except Sableye) as well as a way out of paralysis. It also will break Ditto's multiscale before DNite is taken down.
I agree with PlainN that the Offensive DD set is not outclassed by Salamence with the same reasons PlainN posted. I do think that there are many Special sets. Maybe think of omitting the special attacking set (non-rain set) and just have one set dedicated to rain abuse or condense the two.
@PlainN
I'm assuming that your post was directed at me. I was refering to the special Non-rain set. (Which I did actually state) I was refering to the mixed rain set.
Don't forget that unlike the bulky set and intimidate, you can only use multi scale once for sets lacking roost or some form of outside recovery. Salamence also has more overall power than dragonite which means it can utilize the OffensiveDD to a much better degree. btw +1 Extremespeed doesnt ohko a bulky MH Erufuun which is common.
I'm assuming that your post was directed at me. I was refering to the special Non-rain set. (Which I did actually state) I was refering to the mixed rain set.
Don't forget that unlike the bulky set and intimidate, you can only use multi scale once for sets lacking roost or some form of outside recovery. Salamence also has more overall power than dragonite which means it can utilize the OffensiveDD to a much better degree. btw +1 Extremespeed doesnt ohko a bulky MH Erufuun which is common.
These are the sets that (I think) should be innitially be on the analysis (in the order below).
-Mixed Attacking Lead
-Mixed Attacker (Mold with first)
-Bulky Dragon Dance
-Offensive Dragon Dance
-Support
-Choice Band
Six sets looks much cleaner and more appealing instead of nine. Would have been crazier if more than nine was actually included at such an early time. We could even mold the first two sets together (Swampert proved that a mixed lead set is viable at any phase of the game last gen) if deemed necessary.
OC Mentions
Other Choice sets
(Specially based) Mixed Rain Sweeper
Possibly JT Swift's (ParaShuffle) set. At first I was going to say that the Support/Cleric set was fine enough, but I remembered that it couldn't use Multi-Scale. His set looks all right to be honest, though I'd like more attack options on one such as Dragonite.
Anything else gets regulated to AC or OC. Hopefully, this is my final edit.
-Mixed Attacking Lead
-Mixed Attacker (Mold with first)
-Bulky Dragon Dance
-Offensive Dragon Dance
-Support
-Choice Band
Six sets looks much cleaner and more appealing instead of nine. Would have been crazier if more than nine was actually included at such an early time. We could even mold the first two sets together (Swampert proved that a mixed lead set is viable at any phase of the game last gen) if deemed necessary.
OC Mentions
Other Choice sets
(Specially based) Mixed Rain Sweeper
Possibly JT Swift's (ParaShuffle) set. At first I was going to say that the Support/Cleric set was fine enough, but I remembered that it couldn't use Multi-Scale. His set looks all right to be honest, though I'd like more attack options on one such as Dragonite.
Anything else gets regulated to AC or OC. Hopefully, this is my final edit.
@Aerodactyl: I believe that would do, yet, the offensive DD is quite a solid choice man. The other ones can be scrapped without much regret.
Now let's go to a problem, how can we mix the rain sets? I mean, what attacks and EV spread to use? I believe this moveset will work the best:
- Draco Meteor
- Gale/Thunder
- Extreme Speed / Agility
- Brick Break / Surf
but what EVs, item and nature should it run?
Now let's go to a problem, how can we mix the rain sets? I mean, what attacks and EV spread to use? I believe this moveset will work the best:
- Draco Meteor
- Gale/Thunder
- Extreme Speed / Agility
- Brick Break / Surf
but what EVs, item and nature should it run?
Now that I look at it, I think the Special variant might be the best in Rain. Since you gave no Evs in Attack at all on both sets, it’s easier just to use all four special moves for unresisted coverage and power (except in Shedinja’s case, of course). Leave the choice of whether you’d want Extremespeed or to beat Blissey with Brick Break to the players. Agility is a toss up to me. You’re faster than most of the good users of Swift Swim, but Kingdra still outspeeds you as well as Scarf Latios. Don’t know whether it should be listed as a choice on this set and not the other mix sets.
As for breaking it down, I wouldn’t slash Gale and Thunder together as they are both great moves. Surf rounds it out picking up a boost from the rain. I’d keep Draco Meteor and Gale always on the set. Thunder should be slashed with Extremespeed. Surf be slashed with Brick Break. Since I’m leaning toward the Special side now, I’d keep it the same really. Rash with 252 SpA/ 252 Spd/ 4 Att while holding the Life Orb.
And yeah, the bulky Dragon Dance set is great, but I’d use the offensive set over it any day.
*EDIT*
I keep on changing my mind now, but I'll swap the offensive Dragon Dance with the Rain sweeper for the spot. We still don't know if Drizzle will remain in the standard game at this point, and adding a non Swift Swim Pokemon that uses the rain [to the analysis] doesn't make much sense. To be honest, the set will do just fine in OC for now.
Hey guys, just got 1 more analysis here, haha, The Sinking Belee sent me a stall D-Nite that works as a stat absorver too, here's the analysis he sent me, gimme your opinions!
Also, a quick update: I'm kinda on a slaking phase so when i find courage and patience to edit the main post, I'll work around with the reordering of the sets and everything else!
I think this thing might work just as much as Swift's, while this one is more defensive, that one is way more offense oriented, OC to both I believe.
Also, a quick update: I'm kinda on a slaking phase so when i find courage and patience to edit the main post, I'll work around with the reordering of the sets and everything else!
@lulzer
Here's the most major problem with this set. (It seems to be common for people who don't proporly study up on Dragonite beforehand) Sleep Talk is illegal with Multi Scale.
Edit: Ironically for that set, Sleep Talk was tm 82 last gen which was replaced by "Dragon Tail".
Here's the most major problem with this set. (It seems to be common for people who don't proporly study up on Dragonite beforehand) Sleep Talk is illegal with Multi Scale.
Edit: Ironically for that set, Sleep Talk was tm 82 last gen which was replaced by "Dragon Tail".
Set looks good, but I don't think it'd work that well in practice. My dnite is always taking ice beams from politoed and stone edges from tyranitar, and dragonite really needs the weakness removal and speed advantage that roost + twave provide. If you use it right, my set pulls off the exact same thing + paralysis support. I just don't see it taking hits too well.
I'll give it a go later though and post results.
I'll give it a go later though and post results.
I'm primarily an offensive player, but I tried a version of Swift's set (way long ago during Beta) on a ParaFlinch team. The primary advantage is that with Thunderwave and multi-scale, you can roost until they hit parahax before shuffling them away, thus guaranteeing you that you won't die in the process. The only problem is that against teams that pack a lot of ice moves, you risk a freeze or getting revenge-killed. However, the odds are certainly on your side (25% vs. 10%). Even so, I highly suggest packing a cleric to deal with that issue.
Now, for my area of expertise:
I've used the Choice Band set and the Offensive DD set extensively on all my teams. The major thing I want to point out is the problem with EQ. The way I see it, EQ is probably the least necessary move out of all the practical options that Dnite has. For the majority of steels, fire punch hits harder. The only threats that it hits for significant damage are Heatran and Tyranitar. Heatran is being used less and less while a full-blown Outrage does almost as much to T-tar. The argument for "neutral" coverage (for example on the bulky DD) I think is pretty silly; has anyone ever tried EQing a Nattorei or Scizor? My point is that a neutral non-STAB EQ is not worth the move slot. While I originally though EQ was a good idea on these sets, my philosophy is turning more and more towards sacrificing some coverage in exchange for more utility. Here is what I mean:
1. On the CB set, I actually now have Outrage and Dragon Claw (instead of EQ) along with Fire Punch and ESpeed. The reason for this is that there are times when you don't want to commit to a full Outrage (allowing Nattorei to do nasty things to you next turn). With Dragon Claw, you can keep your options open while still hitting hard. Now, for top threats, Outrage, of course, is necessary and needed.
2. On the Offensive DD set, I replaced EQ with ESpeed. I'm been trying to emphasize the importance of ESpeed on this set recently and I continue to hold to that opinion. The move gives you the additional utility of being a revenge killer when a DD isn't practical or when speed is a mute point. A great example is on rain teams. More likely than not, you're not going to DD enough times to beat Swift Swimmers. Usually, this means sacrificing Dnite to take down Kingdra (for example - Offensive DDnite can live a DD Outrage). With ESpeed, you have greater flexibility and don't need to sacrifice Multi-scale so early, thus giving you the option of taking out 2 opponent Pokemon. Secondly, ESpeed allows Dragonite to not be dead meat upon paralysis (unless parahax hits of course). Finally, Mischievous Heart pokemon will be less of a threat with ESpeed. Erufuun especially is completely shut down by the move. ESpeed is not meant to be an OHKO move, but rather fits well with the way Offensive DD should be used in my opinion: Do as much damage as possible for dying.
OT: CB Dnite and Specs Latios working in tandem is an extremely good steel lure and killer. If you opponent relies on a steel (like Nattorei) to be a defensive pivot, these two will just beat it down with sheer force. Don't even need to predict; most steels will die to a combined Specs Draco Meteor + CB Outrage (shudder). I've had so much trouble recently with the Nattorei, Buru, and Gliscor combo and these two totally rips them apart.
Now, for my area of expertise:
I've used the Choice Band set and the Offensive DD set extensively on all my teams. The major thing I want to point out is the problem with EQ. The way I see it, EQ is probably the least necessary move out of all the practical options that Dnite has. For the majority of steels, fire punch hits harder. The only threats that it hits for significant damage are Heatran and Tyranitar. Heatran is being used less and less while a full-blown Outrage does almost as much to T-tar. The argument for "neutral" coverage (for example on the bulky DD) I think is pretty silly; has anyone ever tried EQing a Nattorei or Scizor? My point is that a neutral non-STAB EQ is not worth the move slot. While I originally though EQ was a good idea on these sets, my philosophy is turning more and more towards sacrificing some coverage in exchange for more utility. Here is what I mean:
1. On the CB set, I actually now have Outrage and Dragon Claw (instead of EQ) along with Fire Punch and ESpeed. The reason for this is that there are times when you don't want to commit to a full Outrage (allowing Nattorei to do nasty things to you next turn). With Dragon Claw, you can keep your options open while still hitting hard. Now, for top threats, Outrage, of course, is necessary and needed.
2. On the Offensive DD set, I replaced EQ with ESpeed. I'm been trying to emphasize the importance of ESpeed on this set recently and I continue to hold to that opinion. The move gives you the additional utility of being a revenge killer when a DD isn't practical or when speed is a mute point. A great example is on rain teams. More likely than not, you're not going to DD enough times to beat Swift Swimmers. Usually, this means sacrificing Dnite to take down Kingdra (for example - Offensive DDnite can live a DD Outrage). With ESpeed, you have greater flexibility and don't need to sacrifice Multi-scale so early, thus giving you the option of taking out 2 opponent Pokemon. Secondly, ESpeed allows Dragonite to not be dead meat upon paralysis (unless parahax hits of course). Finally, Mischievous Heart pokemon will be less of a threat with ESpeed. Erufuun especially is completely shut down by the move. ESpeed is not meant to be an OHKO move, but rather fits well with the way Offensive DD should be used in my opinion: Do as much damage as possible for dying.
OT: CB Dnite and Specs Latios working in tandem is an extremely good steel lure and killer. If you opponent relies on a steel (like Nattorei) to be a defensive pivot, these two will just beat it down with sheer force. Don't even need to predict; most steels will die to a combined Specs Draco Meteor + CB Outrage (shudder). I've had so much trouble recently with the Nattorei, Buru, and Gliscor combo and these two totally rips them apart.