I'm going to kind of echo what he said. It seems to me that Pokemon like Volcarona and Tornadus-T with Regenerator were explicitly designed by Game Freak to be functional even in the face of SR, which to me seems to be a poor way to address the problem (but this is Game Freak we're talking about...). It's probably too late to ever remove SR, but I'd love to see it rebalanced for X and Y.
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Entry Hazards - Are They Broken?
- Thread starter faint
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DPP metagame was obnoxious at times when it came to rocks. Personally, I would like to see things like Charizard and Yanmega stand a fighting chance. As it is they and others that are 4x weak function as all or nothing slots in a team. Hypothetically, i wouldn't mind rocks if they only affected flying types and levitators and had to be stacked like spikes. They would still serve their purpose on a stall team and wouldn't be the braindead one turn goto move its been for several years now. Back to reality, I would like it to banned until it gets addressed properly by gamefreak (so forever). Focus Sash would have to get the boot too if that were ever to pass.
mkizzy
formerly kenny
Honestly hazards are just another part of the game, and there's ways around hazards just like every other part of OU (that being spinners.) There are plenty of viable spinners to utilize, and they can do a lot more than just spin too, so they aren't dead weight sans spinning away hazards.
phantom
Banned deucer.
There's always that one elephant in the room that's never addressed in every OU tier. Gen 1 Wrap, Gen 2 You had Snorlax, Gen 3 Celebi, Gen 4 Stealth Rock, and finally Gen 5 Weather. Stealth Rock was a significant component in DPP, it arguably doesn't hold the same level of influence now as it did then. It can be argued that in DPP, SR is what kept Yanmega and Moltres from going OU (and possibly Staraptor and Honchkrow). Hazards alone aren't broken, but their influence is undeniable. Dragonite and Volcarona for example, might have been suspected and possibly banned without SR, on the other hand it limits the viability of Pokemon such as Zapdos, and Moltres from taking much of a stand in the tier. This Gen, SR is actually kind of a good thing, it keeps a lot of top tier threats in check. In generation 4 I thought it was more of an issue because it hindered more Pokemon than balance. However, hazards were also the reason Deoxys-D and S were banned. Their ability to setup SR and two layers of spikes pushed the power of offensive teams onto a whole new level. IMO, hazards in Gen 5 are a double-edge sword, we will never Know for sure whether D-nite and Volca are broken w/o rocks, I mean their counters don't change after all; we do know that hazards are the reason why two perfectly good pokemon were banned. Then there's the final component to hazards, and those are Pokemon that can get rid of them, and pokemon that can set them up. Spike stacking teams in UU are a perfect example of that. These types of teams encourage the usage of Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce users and give pokemon such as Starmie, Espeon, Tentacruel, Donphan, and Forretress Viability. Without hazards none of these Pokemon would be OU or even UU. Five Pokemon are OU because of the existence of entry hazards, two are kept from going up to ubers, and another two are banned because of entry hazards. Seems like a fair trade to me. Gen 4 SR was broken, now it certainly isn't the case, it is more of balancing factor then anything else.
I have no problem with toxic spikes and spikes- tspikes has a very hard counter (bring a poison type) and spikes takes 2-3 turns to be effective. Focus Sash would have to be banned because a game without stealth rock means opposing flying/levitator gets a free setup turn in too many cases. Think Salamence with a sash in gen 4 getting a free dance while you switch in Weavile. All of a sudden 2-3 of your pokemon are devastated by an outrage.
I thought the mentality at smogon was that we don't keep questionably broken/dumb strategies around to check other potentially dumb/broken strategies in the first place, anyway. If rocks is keeping several types, archetypes, and specific mons who would otherwise add flavor to teambuilding; from participating in the greater metagame: Why should anyone care if Volcarona gets to stay? You lose Volcarona, and then gain several OTHER bug and fire and flying types to replace it.
I think things are fine as they are, but SR does limit Pokemon choices a lot.
The main idea behind SR was to punish those Pokemon that got off scott free all GS/RSE for being immune to Spikes.
Honestly though, if that were the case, I would have just made it do ~18% to Flying and Levitating Pokemon-- then maybe 6% to everything else.
There was no need at all for SR to kick ass on bugs, fire types, or ice pokemon (none of which are particularly dominant types to begin with).
The main idea behind SR was to punish those Pokemon that got off scott free all GS/RSE for being immune to Spikes.
Honestly though, if that were the case, I would have just made it do ~18% to Flying and Levitating Pokemon-- then maybe 6% to everything else.
There was no need at all for SR to kick ass on bugs, fire types, or ice pokemon (none of which are particularly dominant types to begin with).
From my perspective Stealth Rock is ridiculous, for the reasons already given; being THE essential move on any team, the lack of any good mons which can remove it, and for crippling such a huge array of otherwise strong OU pokemon.
I'd personally prefer just to see it's type discrimination halved. For instance, it does 25% to a 4x weak, 18.75% to a 2x weak, and so on. The problem with banning it completely, as has been said, is that the likes of Volcarona and Kyurem-B will run amok. Lowering the type discrimination still keeps the moves flavour, and maintains a hazard to hit Flying types and levitators, but avoids completely crippling Rock weak mons.
That said I'm not sure how much leeway we have to make this kind of change. Banning something is one thing, changing the move itself feels too much like we're just making our own game. If it is a ban or nothing scenario, I still support a ban.
I'd personally prefer just to see it's type discrimination halved. For instance, it does 25% to a 4x weak, 18.75% to a 2x weak, and so on. The problem with banning it completely, as has been said, is that the likes of Volcarona and Kyurem-B will run amok. Lowering the type discrimination still keeps the moves flavour, and maintains a hazard to hit Flying types and levitators, but avoids completely crippling Rock weak mons.
That said I'm not sure how much leeway we have to make this kind of change. Banning something is one thing, changing the move itself feels too much like we're just making our own game. If it is a ban or nothing scenario, I still support a ban.
This is absolutely not the case. Usage does not indicate brokenness.
My opinion? No hazards are broken. It comes down to their impact on the metagame. If the positive outweighs the negative, it's clear that even if they're high in usage they are by no means banworthy. You don't ban to create a worse metagame. I don't even think I need to talk about Spikes and Toxic Spikes, you'd have to be really far off the deep end to even assume these are broken, so I'll assume you're only a little off the deep end and think SR is broken.
Let's not even bother with the tiny stuff. We'll go straight to the big changes.
-Dragonite and Volcarona get put up to Ubers. It's painfully obvious how good these two would be without Stealth Rock. Absolutely no reason to not run Volcarona, even on rain because of how insanely good it is thanks to its access to Hurricane. The requirement of a spinner is the only thing that was keeping Volc out of Ubers. Dragonite has a similar story.
-Spikers would get much more common simply because an offensive team will want hazards. A lot of lead custap Forry and Skarm would be expected in this metagame.
-Sash on flying types and levitators in general will be much more viable. This could be taken as both a positive and negative effect, depending on how you look at it.
-Staraptor, Yanmega, and Moltres seem to be some of the mons with the most OU potential of SR was banned. All could viably rise up.
-Donphan falls to UU/RU, losing its main niche as a sun rocks + spinner.
-Salamence, Thundurus-T, Kyurem-B, and Gyarados become a hell of a lot better. None of these mons in particular need the buff except maybe Gyarados.
I'd consider one ban sending 2 things to Ubers, dropping one thing out of OU, overcentralizing the versatility of 2 Pokemon to 2 sets, and needless extreme buffs given to 3 already incredible mons outweighs the bonuses of letting some extra lesser threats rise into the metagame, and any potential good that could come from a Focus Sash buff.
Basically, SR being so important in the metagame is a necessary evil to retain better balance. That's really what it comes down to.
I do also think that SR is broken, but I do also belive that a lot of other stuff lika volcarona and dragonite would be more broken without SR. Like some other mentioned I only think that the damage it deals is what makes it broken. Its ability to punish everything that switches in makes it realy good and it makes the meta more balanced.
The main idé was to punish pokemons with the flying-type or levitate. But right now it's crippleing everything weak to the rock-typing. Just lower the damage and it will be fine. Like a few others have said 18.5% damage to pkmns that are weak to rock-type and stuff with levitate.
The main idé was to punish pokemons with the flying-type or levitate. But right now it's crippleing everything weak to the rock-typing. Just lower the damage and it will be fine. Like a few others have said 18.5% damage to pkmns that are weak to rock-type and stuff with levitate.
The actual move itself can't be nerfed of course, but if the strategy was actually broken, it could be nerfed in the sense that the most problematic user(s) of it could be banned, leaving the more mediocre users of the move remaining. Because people often say a move or ability is broken, but really it's only broken on the strongest Pokemon that have it, it's not broken on the weaker Pokemon (e.g. Swift Swim Kingdra is broken in OU, and Swift Swim Magikarp definitely is not, so it's Kingdra that is the problem, not Swift Swim).
I thought you weren't supposed to keep broken things in OU just because it checked other broken things.
Dragonite and Volcarona are uber material. Yet they can be kept in check by one simple move. Just let them be uber.
Yanmega, darmanitan, and moltres are just a few things that are essentially OU worthy. One move should not have this much effect on the metagame.
Hail wouldn't be garbage without SR! Abomasnow can only switch into rocks so many times and every hail abuser is SR weak.
Also, rapid spinners and spin blockers both suck so entry hazards aren't even a really dynamic part of the meta. It's usually just "slap SR somewhere on your team because it is the best move"
Dragonite and Volcarona are uber material. Yet they can be kept in check by one simple move. Just let them be uber.
Yanmega, darmanitan, and moltres are just a few things that are essentially OU worthy. One move should not have this much effect on the metagame.
Hail wouldn't be garbage without SR! Abomasnow can only switch into rocks so many times and every hail abuser is SR weak.
Also, rapid spinners and spin blockers both suck so entry hazards aren't even a really dynamic part of the meta. It's usually just "slap SR somewhere on your team because it is the best move"
Hazards goal is making Pokemon die quicker, for sweepers, so it turns the metagame more offensive. But to lay down Spikes or Toxic Spikes reliably, you will most likely need a defensive mon, as otherwise, you will just be KO'd. But Stealth Rock can be laid down easily, which can be done by every mon when they get a free turn, so also by offensive mons. This means that Stealth Rock only makes the metagame more offensive, while it is more balanced at the spikes
in other words, "it's broken but it keeps broken things in check so let's keep it"
god forbid we actually ban things!
[QUOTE="UltiMario]Basically, SR being so important in the metagame is a necessary evil to retain better balance. That's really what it comes down to.[/QUOTE]
That is a very fundamental flaw in understanding the way Smogon tiering process operates.
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About topic:
Look Entry hazards by nature aren't bad. They are fundamental tools in any teambuilders hands by now. Spikes were perfectly fine and singlehandedly ushered in the stally gen 2 metagame.
But I have some real beef with stealth rocks. My first and foremost is that it has a typed damage. This factor has singlehandedly brought down usage of Fire and Ice types in the tier. And has left genuinly decent pokemon languising in RU and below. Articuno, Moltres, etc.
It's a huge pain making a sun team to abuse the weather. Because unlike rain, you can't overload spam STAB fire users in your team because they all essentially can only switch in 3 times at best. And to get rid of the said hazards you are stuck with the shitty Donphan, or the mediocre Xatu who needs prediction to succeed. Quite a raw deal if you are abusing band/specs.
If only Stealth rocks dealt standard Typless damage of say 10-12% consistently to every pokemon...or maybe remain a normal type.. being resisted by rock and steel types.. it would be much better IMHO.
That is a very fundamental flaw in understanding the way Smogon tiering process operates.
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About topic:
Look Entry hazards by nature aren't bad. They are fundamental tools in any teambuilders hands by now. Spikes were perfectly fine and singlehandedly ushered in the stally gen 2 metagame.
But I have some real beef with stealth rocks. My first and foremost is that it has a typed damage. This factor has singlehandedly brought down usage of Fire and Ice types in the tier. And has left genuinly decent pokemon languising in RU and below. Articuno, Moltres, etc.
It's a huge pain making a sun team to abuse the weather. Because unlike rain, you can't overload spam STAB fire users in your team because they all essentially can only switch in 3 times at best. And to get rid of the said hazards you are stuck with the shitty Donphan, or the mediocre Xatu who needs prediction to succeed. Quite a raw deal if you are abusing band/specs.
If only Stealth rocks dealt standard Typless damage of say 10-12% consistently to every pokemon...or maybe remain a normal type.. being resisted by rock and steel types.. it would be much better IMHO.
I voted that only SR is broken. There are several would-be OU mons that are held back by it. And I'm starting to get fed up seeing SR mentioned in pretty much every on site analysis (either "the move is a clean OHKO after SR damage" or "Ufortunately, it has a SR weakness, which keeps it out of OU".)
If that's not overcentralization, I don't know what is. And the "necessary evil" argument's a poor one (at least in my opinion).
Perhaps if SR dealt neutral damage, or perhaps acted like spikes, but only affected Flying or levitating pokemon (Which was the original intention).
If that's not overcentralization, I don't know what is. And the "necessary evil" argument's a poor one (at least in my opinion).
Perhaps if SR dealt neutral damage, or perhaps acted like spikes, but only affected Flying or levitating pokemon (Which was the original intention).
Playtest without Stealth Rock
Firstly,I'd like to thank the user Faint who started the topic as it is one I have strong views on.
For the large part, Stealth Rock has been more destructive than constructive. While, to a certain extent, it has kept certain pokemon in check like Dragonite and Salamence, the negatives far outweigh the positives.
Firstly, types such as Ice, Fire, Bug, Flying have become completely impractical which imbalances the metagame.
Types like Steel have only received more usage, with the top two most used(Scizor and Ferrothorn) being steel(and 4 in the top ten) partially because of the resist to Stealth Rock amongst other factors.
Types like Ice tell a different story: Mamoswine is the only ice type to feature in the top 25(and that too because of it's secondary typing which hands it a resist).
Here are some Pokemon brutally hit by Stealth Rock:
1) Articuno: I always try to fit this pokemon into a hail team but as a result, the team is never successful. Why? Because of Stealth Rock!
Articuno has quite good stats and can serve as a good wall with 90/100/125 defenses. Regrettably, a pokemon that otherwise could serve as a check to the dragon-types in the tier is ostracized because of Stealth Rock
2) Moltres: Likewise, this legendary bird also has a lot of viability in today's metagame without SR. Which Sun team wouldn't like a Pokemon capable of handling Rain threats like Ludicolo with ease as well as a Pokemon that is immune to Earthquake? If not for SR, Heatran would probably drop in usage as Moltres would provide a viable alternative.
Game Freak made a lot of mistakes with this:
1) Only having a Rock-type hazard: If Game Freak had developed hazards with other types, like say for example Grass-type hazards, the hazard issue would have applied to every Pokemon which would have equalized the metagame(some pokemon are weak to certain hazards whilst other ones are weak to others, +-) and possibly made the metagame more enjoyable by being offensively based.
2) Distribution of Stealth Rock: If it wasn't enough to make the viability of a lot of good pokemon 0, Game Freak, rather than giving the move to Pokemon that really needed buffering against the types it was hitting(e.g Leavanny who is 4x weak to both flying and fire), gave it as a TM to every Tom, Dick and Harry(no offense meant to people with said names) who was a Rock-type. This meant that the Pokemon that could already hit these pokemon hard with a 4x effective attack now get to do the same with 50% damage already done. If that isn't bad enough, Game Freak made some attrocious decisions by giving Pokemon already at an advantage to these Pokemon a 50% headstart. Was there any hope for these Pokemon??
This is the learnset: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stealth_Rock_(move)#Learnset
Just scroll down to the TM and be awed by Pokemon which, Game Freak thought, couldn't handle Fire,Flying,Ice and Bug without 50% chopped off at first.
Firstly Chansey. Chansey's already so frustrating with eviolite and so hard to take down. But no, apparently Game Freak thought poor old Chansey who takes around 15% from these pokemon couldn't deal with these pokemon without chopping off half their health first. Same applies for Blissey
Secondly, Skarmory??? Skarmory only is SE from Fire, resists Bug 4x, neutral from Ice and Resists flying??? But once again, Game Freak(these honorable men, quoting Antony from Julius Caesar)(no offense meant dude) decides that Skarmory can't beat Yanmega without 50% gone.
A couple of other horrors(Swampert???, Empoleon???, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf???, Forrestress to some extent(agreed fire, but resists everything else(Bug, Flying, Ice)) come to mind.
The list could go on and on without end.
3) Having few counters: Rapid Spin. One move. Magic Guard. Two. Magic Bounce. 3. Magic Coat. 4. Any I missed? More importantly, all these are distributed to the wrong Pokemon. Why not give Articuno Magic Guard to offset the damage, or at least an ability that halves the damage from hazards and statuses??
In my opinion, it is time to have a playtest WITHOUT SR. Just to see the effects on the metagame. Firstly, it can do NO HARM. Worst possible scenario, situation escalates, Dragonite and Salamence become broken, blah blah blah. We revert to with SR and the story ends there. Best possible scenario? Metagame equalizes, Sun and Hail teams receive a boost, types equalization takes place, more offense-oriented metagame and a lot of fun.
Secondly, it allows us to be more creative with the teams and sets we use. No more forced rapid spinner on Sun teams, opening up a free slot, as an example.
I urge everybody to join the campaign No SR Playtest that I would like to start.
Firstly,I'd like to thank the user Faint who started the topic as it is one I have strong views on.
For the large part, Stealth Rock has been more destructive than constructive. While, to a certain extent, it has kept certain pokemon in check like Dragonite and Salamence, the negatives far outweigh the positives.
Firstly, types such as Ice, Fire, Bug, Flying have become completely impractical which imbalances the metagame.
Types like Steel have only received more usage, with the top two most used(Scizor and Ferrothorn) being steel(and 4 in the top ten) partially because of the resist to Stealth Rock amongst other factors.
Types like Ice tell a different story: Mamoswine is the only ice type to feature in the top 25(and that too because of it's secondary typing which hands it a resist).
Here are some Pokemon brutally hit by Stealth Rock:
1) Articuno: I always try to fit this pokemon into a hail team but as a result, the team is never successful. Why? Because of Stealth Rock!
Articuno has quite good stats and can serve as a good wall with 90/100/125 defenses. Regrettably, a pokemon that otherwise could serve as a check to the dragon-types in the tier is ostracized because of Stealth Rock
2) Moltres: Likewise, this legendary bird also has a lot of viability in today's metagame without SR. Which Sun team wouldn't like a Pokemon capable of handling Rain threats like Ludicolo with ease as well as a Pokemon that is immune to Earthquake? If not for SR, Heatran would probably drop in usage as Moltres would provide a viable alternative.
Game Freak made a lot of mistakes with this:
1) Only having a Rock-type hazard: If Game Freak had developed hazards with other types, like say for example Grass-type hazards, the hazard issue would have applied to every Pokemon which would have equalized the metagame(some pokemon are weak to certain hazards whilst other ones are weak to others, +-) and possibly made the metagame more enjoyable by being offensively based.
2) Distribution of Stealth Rock: If it wasn't enough to make the viability of a lot of good pokemon 0, Game Freak, rather than giving the move to Pokemon that really needed buffering against the types it was hitting(e.g Leavanny who is 4x weak to both flying and fire), gave it as a TM to every Tom, Dick and Harry(no offense meant to people with said names) who was a Rock-type. This meant that the Pokemon that could already hit these pokemon hard with a 4x effective attack now get to do the same with 50% damage already done. If that isn't bad enough, Game Freak made some attrocious decisions by giving Pokemon already at an advantage to these Pokemon a 50% headstart. Was there any hope for these Pokemon??
This is the learnset: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stealth_Rock_(move)#Learnset
Just scroll down to the TM and be awed by Pokemon which, Game Freak thought, couldn't handle Fire,Flying,Ice and Bug without 50% chopped off at first.
Firstly Chansey. Chansey's already so frustrating with eviolite and so hard to take down. But no, apparently Game Freak thought poor old Chansey who takes around 15% from these pokemon couldn't deal with these pokemon without chopping off half their health first. Same applies for Blissey
Secondly, Skarmory??? Skarmory only is SE from Fire, resists Bug 4x, neutral from Ice and Resists flying??? But once again, Game Freak(these honorable men, quoting Antony from Julius Caesar)(no offense meant dude) decides that Skarmory can't beat Yanmega without 50% gone.
A couple of other horrors(Swampert???, Empoleon???, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf???, Forrestress to some extent(agreed fire, but resists everything else(Bug, Flying, Ice)) come to mind.
The list could go on and on without end.
3) Having few counters: Rapid Spin. One move. Magic Guard. Two. Magic Bounce. 3. Magic Coat. 4. Any I missed? More importantly, all these are distributed to the wrong Pokemon. Why not give Articuno Magic Guard to offset the damage, or at least an ability that halves the damage from hazards and statuses??
In my opinion, it is time to have a playtest WITHOUT SR. Just to see the effects on the metagame. Firstly, it can do NO HARM. Worst possible scenario, situation escalates, Dragonite and Salamence become broken, blah blah blah. We revert to with SR and the story ends there. Best possible scenario? Metagame equalizes, Sun and Hail teams receive a boost, types equalization takes place, more offense-oriented metagame and a lot of fun.
Secondly, it allows us to be more creative with the teams and sets we use. No more forced rapid spinner on Sun teams, opening up a free slot, as an example.
I urge everybody to join the campaign No SR Playtest that I would like to start.
Some people also claim it is a necessary evil to keep pokemon like Dragonite at bay. Do you realise that Pokemon like Weavile can outspeed and OHKO Drago if not for Stealth Rock?? Ice-types would be much more common(Frosslass, Abomasnow) if SR was banned. Hail teams would eat up a share of the Rain dominance and would help equalize the metagame
Lets make the quick assumption that Stealth Rocks really are way too good, and it's something we've just been ignoring and dealing with all this time because we felt like we had to.
I would REALLY like to hear your argument for how banning a move that would cause two Pokemon to shoot up to Ubers and result in arguably a less balanced metagame is worth the ban. I'm all ears.
Using the assumption that Stealth Rock is way too good and worth banning, it doesn't matter if the metagame is less balanced immediately after (though I honestly don't believe this would be the case, assuming Volcarona and Dragonite went to ubers). We don't keep broken things because they check other broken things.
Yeah banworthiness has nothing to do with the immediate effect on the meta. And as Lady Alex just said, I don't even think this is the case. IMO, the reason why there's so much controversy on this is because it hasnt been questioned, and is SO broken that it is ubiquitous to the point of defining the metagame, at which point of course we dont see anything wrong with this. I actually could totally see this deserving a suspect test.
In what areas are stealth rocks worth a suspect testing? What pokemon, ability, or strategy are they depriving from reaching full potential. After all there are answers to stealth rocks in spinning and magic bouncing.
I would support a suspect test for Stealth Rock. If there's any question about whether something fits the criteria for being banworthy, there's nothing wrong with testing it. Having easily over 90% usage and forcing many potentially useful pokemon into total obscurity is something that deserves to be questioned.
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