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Excadrill
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
Breloom does not have nearly the bulk or speed that Birijion has and plays completely differently. I highly doubt you would be willing to use Breloom as a utility counter to some of the game's top threats. Garchomp and Lucario, two that I specifically mentioned, eat Breloom for breakfast through their bulk and +2 priority Extremespeed.
Not to mention that Breloom isn't getting around Salamence, Zapdos, Urugamosu, etc without prediction anytime soon.
Finally, Birijion has the distinction of having much higher special defense. Even with a Naive nature, it has 264 SpD uninvested, which is more than Latios. In other words, Breloom struggles to switch in on even an unboosted Ice Beam from the likes of CM Suicune, while Birijion can do so much more easily.
Breloom has priority, but Mach Punch's low base power nullifies Breloom's Attack advantage over Birjion, and Fighting doesn't have great neutral coverage. Anything else Breloom does is off of its base 70 Speed, which compared to Birjion's base 108 Speed, is a rather huge difference. Breloom certainly has advantages, but there's plenty that Birjion can do that it can't do, so I wouldn't say Breloom's existence is a huge problem for Birjion.
Edit: And what IcyMan said.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
i think you got me wrong since this is the doryuzu thread my post was related to doryuzu and how they counter him and if it comes to this point Birjion is inferior Return is one of the most used options for dorys last slot and if it can't counter him at +2 it isn't really a counter other than Breloom whose LO/CB Adamant Mach Punch will OHKO Dory (unless it runs a chople berry but both won't kill him if he does using your ev spread).
Sure Birjion differs itself from Breloom since they got completly different stat spreads and movepool.
Sure Birjion differs itself from Breloom since they got completly different stat spreads and movepool.
We would have more facts on which to debate if there were concrete statistics; as it stands, Return and X-Scissor are equally viable options on Doryuuzu, and Birijion manages to deal with it so long as the mole isn't carrying both LO and Return. The fact is, if Breloom doesn't fit for your team, Birijion is another option.
For the record, Tyranitar destroys both Ninetales and Politoed, with a specially defensive spread, so Sand is the most durable weather. Sun and Rain teams could pack Dugtrio to take him out, though. Concerning Doryuzzu, what's even better about him is the fact that Randorosu weakens most of its counters, coming later to sweep even easier.
Tyranitar doesn't "destroy" Politoed, as Boiling Water or Hydro Pump could easily put him in this place and if Politoed goes bulky, he won't take much from your attacks either. Also, you don't want to forfeit Tyranitar's power for anything but a Curse set; 252 HP is an adequate investment for taking hits, while freeing room to invest in its offense.
The reason Sand is more potent than Rain is because Sand has far more potent offensive threats. Not only does the summoner itself function as a threat, but then you get Landlos, Garchomp, Doryuuzu, etc. Most Rain teams can be easily dismantled by any number of boosting sweepers, especially the aforementioned Garchomp.
The reason Sand is more potent than Rain is because Sand has far more potent offensive threats. Not only does the summoner itself function as a threat, but then you get Landlos, Garchomp, Doryuuzu, etc. Most Rain teams can be easily dismantled by any number of boosting sweepers, especially the aforementioned Garchomp.
Quite frankly, Politoed is renowned for its ability to set up auxiliary weather advantage and the fact that it's actually able to survive a good number of hits before going down. Tyranitar, despite the fact that it has great offenses overall, doesn't quite dent Politoed hard enough, especially if the Politoed follows the common Rain Dance Lead format.
For instance, I run Toxic Orb Hariyama which has the potential to eliminate a good number of leads such as Azelf, Swampert, Heatran, Randurosu, and friends. Politoed survives Guts Close Combat and stalls Toxic damage out. One thing though: what does it do?
Politoed doesn't have the offensive presence that Tyranitar has. Tyranitar, on the other hand, is substantial against other threats and can put a big dent in things alongside Doryuuzuu. Doryuuzuu obviously hurts things just nearly as well as Kingdra and Kabutops; with the support of Tyranitar.
Because Generation 5 Sandstorm has two Sandstorm staples that pose an offensive presence (Hippowdon's "meh" in this sort of situation), it's more "durable", as the posters above me have said. Schrodinger's Cat, metaphorically.
For instance, I run Toxic Orb Hariyama which has the potential to eliminate a good number of leads such as Azelf, Swampert, Heatran, Randurosu, and friends. Politoed survives Guts Close Combat and stalls Toxic damage out. One thing though: what does it do?
Politoed doesn't have the offensive presence that Tyranitar has. Tyranitar, on the other hand, is substantial against other threats and can put a big dent in things alongside Doryuuzuu. Doryuuzuu obviously hurts things just nearly as well as Kingdra and Kabutops; with the support of Tyranitar.
Because Generation 5 Sandstorm has two Sandstorm staples that pose an offensive presence (Hippowdon's "meh" in this sort of situation), it's more "durable", as the posters above me have said. Schrodinger's Cat, metaphorically.
Heracross takes neutral damage from Rock Slide due to its Bug typing having a weakness to Rock and therefore canceling out the resistance it would otherwise have from its Fighting typing.
Not like Skarm can't use roost.
I've been battling several rain teams and a close friend uses a mono type water team and found it extremely difficult to keep Sandstorm up for my pokes like Doryuuzu. I read several movesets for pokes and noticed that none of them have any sets to summon sandstorm but there are many that naturally run sunny day or rain dance. If my train of thought is throwing people off, what I mean to say is that because of the recent additions of droughtales and drizzletoed, keeping SS up is getting much more difficult. Is it possible to create move sets for SS summoners other than the hippo and Ttar?
Technically, yes. It is possible to teach a Pokemon Sandstorm conveniently by Pokemon TM and create a moveset around it. I would advise against having a Pokemon with the move Sandstorm because simply having Tyranitar and Hippowdon on a team makes the situation more simple than ever. Having a Pokemon that induces a Sandstorm upon switch-in is definitely superior to a Pokemon who induces Sandstorm upon an almost-wasted moveslot.
Here's a tidbit for you: A Rain or Sun team will usually reveal their weather-inducer early. A Ninetales or a Politoed in the lead slot is the most common scenario in Pokemon Online, and will most likely be in future Pokemon simulators. If you manage to keep the sandstorm-inducer preserved until the opponent's Politoed or Ninetales has been defeated, you will be promised a better game in your favor. By all means, not all Rain teams will keep around Politoed due to a discrepancy between defense and offense; some do, so be wary. This goes for Ninetales as well.
Keep the opponent unsuspecting. Preserve Tyranitar or Hippowdon until the end.
Keeping Tyranitar until the end is a great way to lose. You want Sand up ASAP before Kingdra and friends can cause too much damage. Just make sure your lead is prepared to KO Toed and friends on sight and abuse trappers like Gochi and Shandera to make sure the weather setter dies so you can get your own in.
Of course, it's going to be way, way harder to stop weather-based teams without one of your own, but balance teams are still doable, so long as you have a plan. Again, abuse trappers, have a random weather move on your supporter, get a decent scarfer and some strong priority, then make sure your Pokemon have good synergy.
I think we're getting a little off-base here, lol.
Of course, it's going to be way, way harder to stop weather-based teams without one of your own, but balance teams are still doable, so long as you have a plan. Again, abuse trappers, have a random weather move on your supporter, get a decent scarfer and some strong priority, then make sure your Pokemon have good synergy.
I think we're getting a little off-base here, lol.
Relatively correct. Maybe I should amend the last statement because I really didn't mean "the end".
Kill Politoed and Ninetales and the Sandstorm sweeping should be fine. As SOON as both of those are killed, send in the Sandstorm inducer immediately. Against Rain sweepers, that's when Tyranitar should do its job. If its up against Politoed, it should get rid of it immedately then switch out. That should be the basic procedure assuming a weather team versus.
I don't understand why weather teams don't run Sunny Day/Rain Dance/Sandstorm on other pokemon and rely on their abilities. Another weather pokemon could come in and destroy your momentum if you send in your weather summoner too often. there are gonna be some pokemon like ludicolo who just need Surf/Ice Beam/Giga Drain and the last move is filler since you don't really need coverage when you have STAB surf in the rain. Having rain in that last slot is ideal in case other weather comes.
It's also kinda dumb to have your lead pokemon be ninetails/politoed since they don't have the movesets to be good leads. Abomasnow/Tyranitar have good coverage and can run multiple sets. You don't know what to expect so you may have to switch out. The 6% residual damage is also nice.
Politoed and ninetails are limited in what they are capable of doing; they're pretty predictable. Politoed can somewhat work with Encore/protect/hypnosis but he works so well mid game with encore against people who wanna stat up.
I know this is somewhat off topic, but Doryuzuu lives off of Sandstorm and you need to keep it going.
It's also kinda dumb to have your lead pokemon be ninetails/politoed since they don't have the movesets to be good leads. Abomasnow/Tyranitar have good coverage and can run multiple sets. You don't know what to expect so you may have to switch out. The 6% residual damage is also nice.
Politoed and ninetails are limited in what they are capable of doing; they're pretty predictable. Politoed can somewhat work with Encore/protect/hypnosis but he works so well mid game with encore against people who wanna stat up.
I know this is somewhat off topic, but Doryuzuu lives off of Sandstorm and you need to keep it going.
Andy Snype
Mr. Music
There is no point in wasting a moveslot for RD/SD when you could use it for a better move. Not to mention that the four weather moves now last for a limited number of turns. So why waste a slot for a limited-time weather effect when you could just use one ability to make it last forever?
When using a weather-theme, your options are pretty limited. It's expected that you intend to take advantage of the weather. If not, why are you using a weather theme?
As for Doryuuzu living off of Sandstorm, the two perma-Sand users are viable in play, especially Tyranitar, who works fine this Gen. Both are quite bulky and can switch in multiple times. If the opponent wants to break the weather, then set it back up. It's not hard to get them back in.
Yeah you kinda need a ballance of both.If you loose your inducer too early its gg as Sand wont be able to beat through rain teams in rain for shit.But if you save it for too long and it ends up like one of the last 2 of your remaining pokes your also pretty much dead.
This is the reason i like Sand teams tbh.Its far more easier to preserve Tyranitar then it is for Ninetails and Politoad who can easily be forced to be brought in and get sacked by repeatedly spamming powerful hits like Draco Meteor.
This is the reason i like Sand teams tbh.Its far more easier to preserve Tyranitar then it is for Ninetails and Politoad who can easily be forced to be brought in and get sacked by repeatedly spamming powerful hits like Draco Meteor.
My opponents usually run toed or tales but also run an additional weather poke like venusaur or ludicolo so get their weather back for a period of time when they lose their weather summoner to get a sweep up or just to get rid of the opposing weather if their own summoner has already been KOed as well. Despite their bulk Ttar and Hippo can't come in on everything.
that doesnt hinder the fact that sandstorm pokemon pool is more versatile that rain and sun. rain and sun wouldnt use water and fire respectively due to SD RD side efefct. Sandstorm homever can run practicaly everything you want except things,like solarbeam and thunder which isnt much of a case. Also rain and sun is unreleased DW ability.
AND they only have 1 summoner.
AND they only have 1 summoner.
I can see a set that goes kinda like this:
Doryuuzu@ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Sandthrow
EVs:252 Atk/252 Spe/4 HP
Moveset:
-Swords Dance
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide/Brick Break
-Shadow Claw/Return/Rapid Spin
Swords dance to boost his already massive attack to insane levels, Earthquake for general stab. Rock Slide or Brick Break is completely up to whoever is using it, seeing as Brick Break gives unresisted coverage alongside Shadow Claw, Rockslide hits fliers harder, though. The last slot is really just for hitting other things you may feel the need to. Shadow claw hits everything but darks and steels, while return hit many things for neutral damage. Rapid spin is there because, despite Doryuuzzu lacking all that much bulk, he only takes 3% from stealth rocks, and is immune to toxic spikes. Hippowdon is better than tyranitar for setting up sand storm, seeing as Ttar and Dory share a few common weaknesses.
Doryuuzu@ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Sandthrow
EVs:252 Atk/252 Spe/4 HP
Moveset:
-Swords Dance
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide/Brick Break
-Shadow Claw/Return/Rapid Spin
Swords dance to boost his already massive attack to insane levels, Earthquake for general stab. Rock Slide or Brick Break is completely up to whoever is using it, seeing as Brick Break gives unresisted coverage alongside Shadow Claw, Rockslide hits fliers harder, though. The last slot is really just for hitting other things you may feel the need to. Shadow claw hits everything but darks and steels, while return hit many things for neutral damage. Rapid spin is there because, despite Doryuuzzu lacking all that much bulk, he only takes 3% from stealth rocks, and is immune to toxic spikes. Hippowdon is better than tyranitar for setting up sand storm, seeing as Ttar and Dory share a few common weaknesses.
I did a calc the other and found out that:
252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Iron Fist Roobushin Mach Punch CANNOT OHKO 0/252 Doryuuzu. Dory still reaches 424 speed in sandstorm with no ev's, so its not that big of a loss.
Also, 252 Adamant Dory will always OHKO 252/0 neutral Roobushin with a +2 EQ.
Lesson: Roobushin isnt a reliable Dory counter/switch-in.
252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Iron Fist Roobushin Mach Punch CANNOT OHKO 0/252 Doryuuzu. Dory still reaches 424 speed in sandstorm with no ev's, so its not that big of a loss.
Also, 252 Adamant Dory will always OHKO 252/0 neutral Roobushin with a +2 EQ.
Lesson: Roobushin isnt a reliable Dory counter/switch-in.