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Garchomp and Sand Veil Discussion

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Kevin Garrett, Aug 27, 2012.

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  1. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    yes, running veilchomp on non-sand would be legal, and i frankly see nothing wrong with that. kingdra can be run on weatherless as a rain check and it demolishes most rain teams once ferrothorn is removed, but it's still far from being overpowered. same would go for veilchomp. if you can't bring the sand yourself, you can only abuse veil if your opponent brings it, in which case lucky you and too bad for them.
  2. NidokingKing

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    I just thought of this, and I'm not sure if anybody else has said this, but is it possible that we can just ban sand veil from OU, just not from the lower tiers. This protects Cacturne's usefulness in the lower tiers and more uncontrollable hax is gone from OU. That being said, I have no idea where Hippowdon and sandstream as a whole lie in the lower tiers, so this might not actually be possible.

    I'm actually pretty glad I don't know the politics of banning stuff within the tiers.
  3. IcyMan28

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    What is the reasoning against banning Sand Veil + Sandstream? I see it as the best outcome from this discussion - the broken aspects of the ability are removed, Cacturne gets to keep its moves (but its Cacturne, who has no relevance in OU so...), and it is analogous to the DrizzleSwim ban.
  4. yee

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    The case for banning Sand Veil as a whole is that Garchomp cannot be used with Sand Veil on non Sand teams to troll other Sand teams.

    The cases for the combo ban cannot include anything related to lower tiers because OU has absolute priority. The DrizzleSwim ban considers rain a "special case" so Sand related abilities can't be directly linked to it.

    Not much on the pro Sand Veil as a whole side but absolutely nothing I can think of for the SS + Sandstream atm.
  5. IcyMan28

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    If that's the case, Swift Swim should be banned as a whole because Kingdra can be used to troll on Rain teams. Using Rain just means you accept the risk of facing a Swift Swimmer, and so using Sand would mean accepting the risk of facing Sand Veil Chomp/Scor. I understand that DrizzleSwim considers rain a "special case" so as not to make a habit of the combo ban, but the similarities stand.
  6. voodoo pimp

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    Not gonna happen. Allowing bans that doesn't apply to lower tiers would make things horrendously complicated.
  7. Pocket

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    Why can't we have a combo ban? The pro is that Cacturne's viability is not reduced. The con is that... it's a combo ban? idk.

    Using SV Chomp for some evasion hax against opposing sand teams seems fine with me. The main argument against Sand Veil is that one "cannot do anything" about the passive evasion while the opponent's TTar / Hippo is still alive. Well, now you can - don't use a sand team.
  8. UltiMario

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    This post started off as a comparison between SwSw Kingdra and SV Garchomp trolling respective teams. It turned into something entirely different, so I took a bit out when I figured it was irrelevant to the eventual point I made.

    When I was comparing the two, I key thing I noticed was that Sand Veil has the potential to be broken on only one Pokemon- Garchomp. Notice the word potential. Honestly I expect Gliscor's usage to be higher than Garchomp once the hype wears off, so that one might be an overestimate. This leads me to believe that before we look at more potential ways to handle the unbanning, Garchomp might need an adjusted test ladder: One where Sand Veil isn't banned at all. See what happens. We know from the Control Group (current OU) that Sand Veil pushes nothing over the edge. It's a general consensus from Test Group A (OU Suspect) that Garchomp is very fair in this metagame without Sand Veil. The next logical test is Test Group B ("OU Suspect 2") which would be Garchomp with fully usable Sand Veil in the current OU Metagame. We now have the three most relevant variations of this data (the last being SV+SS) to base a decision on, not two. This is why we have a suspect ladder. To test for the optimal metagame that's both the most simple and balanced. If the data in fact turns out that Sand Veil Garchomp isn't broken in OU due to all the changes that have occurred since it was initially banned, then it's more than theorycraft to bring it down (which we're currently doing, as we have no idea what the implications are on full Garchomp in BW2). It is now data. We have a definitive answer for the best and simplest metagame. Alternatively, if we figure out Sand Veil Garchomp IS broken, we now have data to refute why a Sand Veil ban (or SV + SS ban) is completely necessary. I don't anyone here could say that they think a rule decision could be made better without this data point than with.

    Evasion does not make a fundamental for broken or banning. It's why we allow Acupressure, and as of current, Sand Veil as well as Snow Cloak, and for most of Pokemon's history, Brightpowder. You can do all the multiplication and statistical chance calculation you want- Garchomp is only scarier 20% of the time. Even then, this metagame naturally has enough checks and counters to him already, that the RNG has to screw you over quite a lot to really lose to him over it. Chomp needs to be more than three times luckier than Jirachi, and while sometimes we DO have a terrible time dealing with Rachi, reliable checks are ALWAYS there. (I know I'm going to get some flak about that last statement, but I'm too tired to back it up right this second, I just want to finish this post -_-zzzzzzzz)
  9. Thorhammer

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    You keep asserting that there is a problem with it, but you never provide evidence that there is any such problem. It's getting kind of old now, don't you think?

    Which is, of course, because no such problem exists. Something dependent on specific conditions created by an opponent cannot possibly be broken.
  10. SpecsX

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    We probably should set up an SVChomp ladder. Also, I have said it before and I will say it again, Sand Veil doesn't guarantee a miss, yee. It's incredibly likely, but not guaranteed. Swift Swim in Rain? Guaranteed. I'd argue othr points, but Thorhammer already said them for me.
  11. ginganinja

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    I spent a fair amount of time searching, and it was an old post, but I found the following on smogon when facing Sub SD Garchomp, with Sand Veil active (and leftovers).

    Your chances at beating it apparently are...

    When you look at it like that (assuming its correct) it really shows the percentages, of Sand Veil utterly screwing you over, especially factoring in that when we play with percentages on a sim, lets face it, its prolly going to go to shit.
  12. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    i strongly believe that taking away cacturne's sand veil has a greater influence on NU than veilchomp as a counter to sand would have on OU. therefore i stand by my original opinion: if a sand veil ban is to be implemented, it should be implemented as a sand stream + sand veil combination ban.



    now time to elaborate. i think the significance of lower tiers influencing OU policy is being greatly exaggerated in this discussion. it is as relevant a concern as OU policy affecting lower tiers, i agree, but the significance is minimal. we are basically arguing about veil-less cacturne vs antisand veilchomp. whichever one has more influence on the affected meta should be the one that takes priority in our discussion. if we choose to ban all sand veil because of our concern for OU, cacturne loses encore and bullet seed. on the other hand, if we only ban ss+sand veil, then because of our concern for NU, garchomp gains the ability to run sand veil as a threat to opposing sand. which of these factors has a greater negative influence on the meta in question? if our objective is to minimize metagame cross-talking, then whichever one of these has less influence should be preferred.



    firstly, veil-less cacturne. i think we already know the effect this has on NU. i will quote stats just to be sure we can break it down fair and square (you can say whatever you like about ladder being shit, but the fact is that the stats are the most objective measure that exists). in august stats, cacturne saw 6.1% usage in NU, ranking 31st. this is a non-trivial usage percentage and indicates that cacturne is solidly NU (ie not PU). 38.7% of cacturne ran bullet seed (with an admitted 44.1% running seed bomb, presumably instead of bullet seed) and 34.2% ran encore. the two most commonly used sets of cacturne ran both bullet seed and encore.

    cacturne's on-site NU analysis emphasizes cacturne's unique ability to use bullet seed to break substitutes from mons trying to evade sucker punch, and in both sets encore is given a slash in the fourth slot as a significant utility and support move. i don't play NU, but for whatever reason, 34% of all cacturne players consider encore an important part of their moveset. this is a fact that is already established as of right now and it makes it clear that if cacturne lost these moves, it, and NU, would be noticeably, if not significantly affected. i guess bullet seed is slightly less significant because cacturne could easily switch to running seed bomb (just that it can't break substitutes anymore), and 44% of players have done so already, but it's still an important victim to consider if sand veil is banned altogether.



    the flip side of letting cacturne keep its veil moves is that we now allow chomp to use sand veil as a tool against opposing sand. i would like to stress that the following statements are theory and opinion, not established fact, but i rather doubt chomp is going to run veil in this way. we can compare to the most obvious existing example here which is kingdra.

    kingdra's abilities are SS, sniper and damp. SS is exceptionally powerful as the drizzle+ss ban itself demonstrates and there is no way kingdra would ever run sniper or damp when ss was an option. in addition to using ss to counter other rain teams, kingdra can run rain dance sets that abuse swift swim to sweep (i have seen people in qc dismiss this set as crap, but whatever, it's on the analysis right now). rain dance kingdra may be a rarity in OU, but QC's opinions are held in high esteem on smogon, and the fact that it has a set means that it is actually viable for kingdra to run a weather changing move to abuse its ability, because it's that damn good. we have seen other examples of this as well, since excadrill was run as a check to other sand teams before it was banned. this is because speed boosting weather abilities are very powerful, EVEN IF the weather is not your own. however let's also remember that rain dance kingdra scores an important boost to water stab that makes it easier to sweep. sand rush doesn't get this benefit, and as i will note, neither does sand veil.

    let us now look at garchomp in this light. i believe few players will run sand veil garchomp just to counter opposing sand, and for this reason i think the negative impact of veilchomp is less than that of veil-less cacturne. chomp's other ability is rough skin. rough skin is a bit of a boring ability but it's hardly a bad one. people often speak of iron barbs ferrothorn as a "check to volt-turn" because of the residual damage, especially when coupled with rocky helmet, and the same thing has been said about chomp in this very thread. in addition rough skin has the ever-useful utility of breaking multiscale/sash/sturdy, and most of all, rough skin has utility on any single team, against any team (bar a team that runs all no-contact moves >_>). in comparison to rough skin, sand veil is actually quite niche. it is undoubtedly more powerful, but only when you can bring the sand with you to ensure it's activated, which would be illegal if the combo ban was implemented. if you run sand veil chomp and come up against a non-sand team, you effectively wasted an ability slot that could have been used for rough skin. that damage may mean the difference between sash terrakion getting a swords dance, and sash terrakion being ohko'd by earthquake (this is just an example. if someone starts arguing with me about the legitimacy of this example, i'm just going to ignore it. i am only using this to illustrate a point).

    finally, while ss kingdra is good enough that some people actually run rain dance on it, i strongly doubt sand veil is good enough that people will run sandstorm on garchomp because it simply doesn't have enough moveslots to pull it off. that, i think, really illustrates the difference in power between ss and sand veil. you need substitute to abuse sand veil, which means you'd end up with a set of sub/sd/sandstorm/outrage, which i submit is a patently ridiculous set. with all these arguments seen, i have difficulty believing that people will run veilchomp as a counter to sand. it works in theory, but that assumes you come up against sand, and even then rough skin could potentially have equal or greater utility. what are the chances that rough skin could win you a game? admittedly low, but possibly lower than the chance of you running into a sand team, AND then getting a sand veil miss that wins you the game. basically what i am saying is that i believe veilchomp is unlikely to have a notable negative influence on the OU metagame, as long as it can't run the veil alongside its own sand.



    finally let us look at the hidden third factor in our arguments: philosophical standing and the desire for a good metagame. we want our bans to uphold a certain philosophy and therefore we need to give due consideration to how well each of our arguments respect that. in this i believe our arguments are equal. my argument's philosophical backing is that tier ban policies should be independent of other tiers, an argument that, in this situation, works both ways. your argument (yee's), on the other hand, is that sand veil, even when used against opposing sand, promotes excessive luck-based play and is therefore undesirable. i think BOTH these things are worthy of proper concern and if examined in a purely philosophical vacuum, without any particular pokemon to discuss, our points would be found to be equal.



    in summary, where does this leave us? considering the analysis from my biased perspective: if cacturne lost its sand veil, statistics clearly demonstrate that a non-trivial percentage of NU players would have to adjust accordingly and their usage of cacturne may be negatively impacted. on the other hand, if garchomp was allowed to use sand veil against opposing sand, i think that might be frightening in theory, but in practice is very unlikely seeing as the utility of rough skin is sacrificed if you do so. philosophically, it is wrong for garchomp to be able to abuse sand veil in that way or in any way, since the council has already deemed it uncompetitive. but the likelihood of this happening is, i believe, low enough that we can and should set that aside in favor of something that is equally philosophically significant (the threat of OU ban policy arbitrarily impacting the usage of cacturne) but is also more significant in practice (because cacturne's usage percentage for bullet seed and encore is non-trivial).

    my conclusion is that my argument bears more total significance, and that the combo ban is superior because the sum of its negative philosophical and practical impact is less than that of the all-out ban. obviously i'm going to find in favor of myself because i'm trying to defend my position here, but i hope this makes my reasoning more clear and gives people something to think about.

    sorry for the long ass post guys, it must suck to have to read all of that, but i think this is the kind of discussion where thoughts should be elaborated on or just kept to ourselves.
  13. BKC

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    I don't see any reason to keep Sand Veil. It is uncompetitive as hell, it is not positive for the metagame in any way whatsoever, and it literally does nothing but give losses to players who deserved to win while giving wins to players who deserved to lose. You say you can control not losing to SV by not running your own Sand Streamer, which I disagree with 100%. Sand Veil losses should not be a risk anyone has to take when running Tyranitar and/or Hippowdon.
  14. Jimera0

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    Alkinesthetase says it all. There's very little likelyhood that Garchomp is going to be commonly seen running Sand Veil in an attempt to screw with Sand teams, simply because the net benefit of SV over a large number of games when you cannot summon your own sand is significantly lower than the net benefit of having Rough Skin over a large number of games. I suspect it'd be so uncommon that it's hardly worth considering. And if someone wants to claim that people would use sandstorm on a separate Pokemon to set up for garchomp, I'd like to point to how (un)common rain dance teams are. SS is much more powerful than SV, and if so few teams are willing to slot rain dance in to abuse THAT then how many are going to do it for SV?

    On the other hand, Cacturne would definitely suffer and it has a significant amount of usage in the NU tier. That's a direct, measurable and appreciable negative consequence not doing a combination ban.

    There are no other negatives to the combo ban that do not involve a slippery slope argument, which is inherently flawed in the current council setting. The council is not likely to start using combination bans left and right for everything because we've decided to implement a third one (Remember smash+pass counts as well as SS+drizzle). The council knows where the limits are.

    The only other argument I see against a combo ban is Yee's insistence that OU bans should only consider OU when being implemented, which is incredibly unfair to the lower tiers that Smogon officially supports. I'm pretty sure that, despite your insistence that it should be separate, such a policy has never even been considered before because usually something that's broken only appears in the tier it's being banned from(IE OU Pokemon that got moved to Ubers), or is equally broken in all the lower tiers (IE Hail in UU or SmashPass in RU). This is the first time, to my knowledge, that it's even been a potential issue, and it makes very little sense to cause more general harm than good just because OU is the most popular tier.
  15. mtr

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    Sand Rush is central to Excadrill's success in OU.

    Sand Veil is ancillary to Garchomp's success in OU.
  16. Jimera0

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    More than just that, a sand rush complex ban would still have negative impacts on Pokemon like Stoutland and Sandslash, destroying every hint of their viability in OU. This is different from a complex ban on SV, which avoids ALL collateral damage. There is literally nothing that gets hit by a complex ban on SV except for the Pokemon abusing it in such a way that people consider it un-competitive.

    The two aren't really related. Let's try to keep Sand Rush out of this topic, seeing as it's completely unrelated to the topic at hand.
  17. alkinesthetase

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    this is really not true, and a massive oversimplification of the cases made for their bans. sand veil promotes miss hax that the council has deemed uncompetitive. the issue is obvious: an unlucky miss can cost you the game through no fault of your own. sand rush provides a speed boost which is in no way hax-related; whether or not you get a sand rush boost is almost entirely related to how well you build and play. many people may have considered sand veil the breaking point for garchomp, and many people considered sand rush the breaking point for excadrill, and both mons happened to require sand, but there is no other similarity between the two abilities. they do completely different things and their abusers were banned for different reasons.

    i see a reason: cacturne's movepool would be reduced arbitrarily, and pointless bans are bad bans. the sand veil ban has plenty of justification here but it is utterly pointless in lower tiers. how does this keep getting ignored? the council has pretty much settled on preventing sand teams from abusing veil hax in OU. fine, that's a decision i can agree with. but in lower tiers sand veil provides cacturne with movepool legality that it would not have if that ability was taken away. this is not an acceptable reason? it's not worth considering in the slightest? not even worth responding to?

    and i will repeat what i said in my post: i don't see veil chomp being used against sand teams as likely. no matter how possible it is in theory, i maintain serious doubts that anyone would run sand veil if they couldn't abuse it themselves, when they could instead be using good old rough skin. the concern of sand veil hax being turned against a sand team is, in my opinion, almost entirely academic and philosophical, and i do not believe that it will happen in practice (disclaimer: the statements i am making right now are opinions rooted in theory that has no factual basis). those things are important, yes, but not as important as actual play. yknow what sees actual play? cacturne, that's what. maybe not in OU, but certainly in NU, and that matters.

    anyway it seems nixhex wants to cut down on the policy discussion here because some of my posts got deleted. not sure where the line is drawn but i'll try to back down from this topic (btw, just curious, what parts of my post did you edit? it was a big post and it seems rather similar to how it was before >_>)
  18. Thorhammer

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    I don't think the likelihood of Sand Veil Garchomp being used against Sand Veil teams even matters when we don't have any reason to be concerned about it in the first place, no matter how prevalent it is. You run Rain, you accept that you might face Kingdras with doubled Speed. You run Sand, you accept that you might face Garchomps with 20% Evasion. That's your choice, and it's a perfectly reasonable cost for using certain playstyles.
  19. FateFellShort

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    I'm pretty sure Garchomp could succeed without Sand Veil, just saying.
    And removing Sand Veil from OU is making a step in the direction of removing unnecessary hax.
    Skill is the game. Not luck.
  20. bwburke94

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    Arguments for a SaSt + SV ban:
    1. Under a SaSt + SV ban, it is your choice to run Ttar/Hippowdon and risk 20% Garchomp evasion.
    2. Cacturne would lose out on its best moves because its only other ability is its DW ability, despite the fact that it has no use for SV in its own tier even before the prospective SaSt + SV ban.
    3. Swift Swim was banned as a complex ban with its weather-inducing ability.
  21. deluge

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    I hate when people make unfounded and demonstrably false statements such as "Pokemon is about skill not luck". WRONG. Chess is a game of almost pure skill while Pokemon combines aspects of skill with luck. The game is riddled with traps that can shatter plans whether they be critical hits, move innacuracies, secondary effect activation (freeze, flinch, para, burn, buffs, debufs) etc. The element of chance is an essential aspect of Pokemon as it is in many card games (which are nonetheless played competitively and for money). In fact, I'm pretty sure I could make a clear analogy between Pokemon and a 6 handed card game with dice for the RNG. The element of chance in Pokemon battles is the "act of God" that NEITHER player can directly control but they have to play to mitigate or benefit from its effect and manage the risks.

    There are less burdensome strategic options against Sand Veil activation than there are against critical hits, misses by imperfectly accurate moves, and secondary effect activation. So, in light of the pervasiveness of luck in Pokemon, the decision to target Sand Veil (which is possessed by relatively few Pokemon and which may activate only in a specific field condition) is particularly puzzling. Decisions to ban shoudn't be made to eliminate luck. Such a campaign is futile unless the aim is to invent a game other than Pokemon. They should be made because a strategy or Pokemon is deemed overpowered (ie matches between opponents of similar level end disproportionately often ["large" ratio] with a win for the side employing the overpowered strategy).

    The simplest resolution if Garchomp is deemed overpowered is to ban it. However, if there is an interest in banning as little as possible (an interest NOT served by banning Sand Veil) then a "complex ban" seems reasonable. The Swift Swim + Drizzle ban is a useful precedent. A team strategy is banned without engineering the game and manufacturing unintended moveset/ability illegalities for the Pokemon themselves. In fact, I'd rather call it a strategy ban than a complex ban. The Smashpass ban in lower tiers is similar. You're simply banning a strategy in the same way you'd ban a Pokemon. I'd be very willing to argue that Sandstorm + Sand Veil Garchomp does not in any way approach the potency of any of the aforementioned banned strategies. However, if the decision-makers staunchly disagree I'd prefer a "complex" but conservative and necessary ban over a simple but expansive and unecessary one.
  22. Keikari

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    Well, if people here are so desperate to get Garchomp back, I think we shouldn't entirely ban Sand Veil. We should just ban Sand Veil in combination with Sand Stream. You can stilll have it legal and allow it to be used with Sandstorm.
  23. jc104

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    The issue with a potential sand + sand veil ban (and also the drizzle+ss ban, with which I disagreed) is that it might further increase the importance of team matchup in a way that I dislike. Sand teams have no option but to deal with the incredibly irritating sand veil, and other teams do not.
  24. GatoDelFuego

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    After watching this thread for a few days, I've seen it change completely. It's gone from "is sand veil actually broken" to "is garchomp actually broken". Now, it seems like nobody cares whether garchomp is broken or not, but seems to already be discussing the best way to try and loophole around previous systems just to fit him in.

    I've also seen a real lack of reason why he should actually be OU. People say that you can check him with Weavile and Mamoswine, but guess what? You could do that before, and just because Mamoswine is used more doesn't make it any better to have garchomp back. It was still banned with those old checks in mind. Now, I hear people saying that garchomp was only banned because of sand veil. So what about that?

    If a pokemon is broken with an ability, you don't ban that ability, you ban the pokemon. Is gliscor broken with sand veil? Not really. The chances of missing with that crucial ice beam may still be there, but then again SD gliscor isn't exactly boasting the most powerful coverage out there. Basically any steel-type will deal with him. However, garchomp on the other hand can 2HKO both of his "counters", skarmory and bronzong, with appropriate moves, as well as having a bonus of not even lowering his validity. That seems to remind me exactly of last generation as well as garchomp's previous ban several months ago. What's changed? The usage of mamoswine? Tornadus-T outspeeding him like many things could do before? Please, don't call Tornadus a check to garchomp, its just not.

    Basically, a lack of things have changed since garchomp was banned, and the reasons he was banned still stand here today. Why are we debating about sand veil just for one pokemon? If that pokemon is broken, ban the pokemon.

    Also, if you have that much of a garchomp fetish and need to use him that bad, just go play ubers.
  25. Ninetale3

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    I don't think that wouldn't happen often since sand veil needs sand stream to exploit the ability to it's fullest and not many people would waste move slots for sandstorm just to exploit sand veil. I can see it happen with swift swim since it isn't much of a gamble and the speed boost is helpful where as sand veil and the move sandstorm is too much of a gamble and would most likely back fire.
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