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Garchomp and this Metagame

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Caelum, Jul 2, 2008.

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  1. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    As shown by X-Act in this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1292960&postcount=26 and http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1292986&postcount=28 Garchomp usage is continually increasing to the point where he may be the single most prominent force in the metagame. Anyone who plays competitively knows the impact of Garchomp and its ability to change a game in the blink of an eye. That said, I ask you

    1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
    2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
    4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

    1: My team would change substantially. No doubt steel types have great resistances and defenses but I believe I could make a team without a steal type were it not for Garchomp. This isn't to say it's impossible to do without a steal type but it's incredibly difficult to come into a CB Garchomp's Outrage without a steal type and even then it is hard. Additionally I always have multiple checks on how to revenge kill it. I almost always have a Scarfer or Deoxys-S who has Ice Beam/HP Ice to catch it on Outrage, and even YacheChomp gives this strategy some trouble. At one time I used DD-Dragonite but the risk was just too much what with ScarfChomp coming out. Choice Scarf Garchomp limits the ability to use, for me personally at least, DD Dragonite or Salamence. Another thing I have on my team now is Toxic Spikes. Although Toxic Spikes are for other Pokemon such as Deoxys-S and Tyranitar, the primary reason I included them was for Garchomp. Toxic Spikes can wear it down so it doesn't cause to much havoc. I have other changes to my team that I know I'm forgetting but I've covered some of its impact.

    2: Yes. Garchomp has enough options between CB, Choice Scarf, YacheChomp that I find I need to be hyper-prepared for Garchomp. For example, I don't have multiple guys just to deal with Infernape. Garchomp's power and access to STAB moves with high base power threaten many Pokemon whereas no other Pokemon (maybe an unfair generalization but I feel this is true) has access to such great coverage and STAB moves combine with his speed and power. I find I have to hyper-prepare for it.

    3: I find it isn't reliable to just have 1 way of dealing with Garchomp because each set is incredibly different in its function. Even Garchomp's so called "counters" can be killed in 2 Hits from an SD Outrage so I don't think I can, and I don't, rely on only 1 way to end Garchomp. My currently team has at least 3 ways or taking out Garchomp because I find him that threatening. Plus, with Sand Veil your one hit wonder for Garchomp may miss and be killed in the process.

    4: I believe Garchomp does. Cresselia is a good Pokemon in it's own right, but I question whether or not Cresselia would be so popular if it weren't for Garchomp. I believe Garchomp has also lead to a bulky metagame because one can't simply rely on frail guys to take him out because Garchomp is incredibly powerful. Granted it wasn't solely Garchomp that forced a shift to a bulky offensive metagame, but I think he was certainly a driving factor. Deoxys-S with near maximum speed is obviously a response to Choice Scarf Garchomp since it can outrun it and OHKO with Ice Beam. HP Ice is on many Pokemon now and while I understand it is also for Salamence I believe most would say it is for greater Garchomp coverage. Also, Dragonite and even Salamence to some extent are pushed aside by Garchomp for it's greater speed and ability to sweep.

    5: I personally do not. No doubt things like Gengar or Salamence are powerful but they seem to be much easier to deal with than Garchomp because even though Garchomp is predictable it is incredibly hard to stop unlike Gengar and Salamence once you know the set they are running. The frailty of many powerful sweepers such as Gengar also makes them much easier to deal with as opposed to the relatively bulky Garchomp.

    Probably I didn't cover the answers to my questions entirely so hopefully the rest of you can pick up things I left off.

    Please, do not turn this exclusively into a Garchomp is uber discussion because this isn't what I intended it to be about. Although I suspect a lot of people will find need to mention it, which is fine, just don't rant about how Garchomp should be uber and please discuss the questions I posed.
  2. Stagnant

    Stagnant

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    Garchomp isn't nearly as bad as people think it is. However, I would like to see what would happen to the metagame. Seriously, as I feel when pokemon come to question as for tier position the phrase "your actions speak louder than your words" comes to mind. So what if we have a 'off month'. It was tested and results would/ should show if the movement was right or wrong. Less debate more action.
  3. notorious

    notorious

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    I agree. I feel like we've talked about this forever. The creator of this thread made very good points but ive heard them all before.

    So i believe we should also take action or just leave it be and not have a discussion about it everyday.
  4. Kagster123

    Kagster123

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    1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how? Maybe. I'd most probably be less inclined to carry a steel type to absorb those outrages. (I was never a fan of the steel type anyway.) I'm also sure i wouldn't need as many pokemon packing ice-type attacks. Usually you need 2-3 ice-type users in your team to deal with yachechomp.
    2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building? Not really. I try and fit most of the OU list instead of worrying about only him. I'm actually more scared of Gengar then Garchomp.
    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it? I have multiple ways. Lets face it, everyone needs atleast one backup counter to the counter, and maybe even a backup to that backup. I must say that Toxic Spikes is also effective at taking down LO variants if your ice-type user is gone.
    4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon? Steel types probably got a major boost. Things like Bronzong.(Although skarmory's decreased) Almost every set will try and pack an ice-type move, however i dont think thats only because of Garchomp, as Ice is a fabulous offensive type. It, however, probably contributes to the HP ice usage.
    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp. Like you said there are powerful pokemon (most of them sweepers) like Gengar, Salamence, Tyranitar, Mixape, etc... But they dont centralize it as much as garchomp.
  5. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    just so you guys know the plan on the shoddy smogon server is to have and generally compile logs on a non-garchomp ladder for two months, after which we will ask "high-ranking people" who laddered which metagame they like better
  6. Pulse

    Pulse

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    1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

    Dramatically? Probably not. But they would change. It's simple logic that with one less threat to account for (the biggest one in the game) that my team building would change. It would be little things though. I probably would always use Thunderbolt on Starmie instead of Ice Beam, and the number of Ice attacks on my team would cut down.

    ---

    2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

    Yes. It has become practically subconcious now. The amount of attacks on my team that are directly linked to taking out Garchomp is ridiculous. I need one on a Pokémon who can live long enough to take out Yache Berry, one on a Pokémon to revenge kill it, and usually two more Pokémon have Ice _____ for the _required_ insurance. I fail to see why one wouldn't prepare more for a threat that is on probably over 70% of teams.

    ---

    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

    No. Not at the same level of Garchomp. Deoxys-E comes pretty fucking close, but other than that there is not any Pokémon at the same level of Garchomp when it comes to being so threatening.
  7. Blln

    Blln

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    I might go through and answer all the points individually a little later, but right now I just want to bring up one thing. Just because Garchomp is used so much more than any other pokemon does not make him inherently broken, so much so that he is having a major negative impact on the metagame.

    I am not saying that this is not the case (in fact, I would probaby argue Garchomp does have a negative impact on the mmetagame), I'm just saying I don't think you can draw that conclusion merely from usage. I think the reason Garchomp is used so much is that he doesn't really have any downside, and fits extremely well into a majority of teams and into this "bulky sweeper" metagame. This fact doesn't necessarily mean that he is broken, it just means he is so good at what he does that there is no reason not to use him. Now, in my opinion this is different from being broken in the same sense that something like Kyogre would be broken in OU.

    All I'm trying to say by this is that a pokemon can be by far the most used and still be completely fine in the metagame. If it was Blissey in that much of a lead, I doubt anybody would care. Now all I mean is that I don't think usage should be an argument for Garchomp's teir placement, although I could be wrong in this area. I personally am leaning towards moving Garchomp up, mostly because of Yache berry and Sand Veil. These two elements mean that no matter how well prepared you are for Garchomp, you can still lose to it, which in my opinion is not healthy for the metagame.
  8. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

    Nope, not at all. Everyone has their own approach to battling. Mine is not to conform to my opponents strategy, but to execute my own.

    2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

    Nope, Gyarados and other DDers are scarier to me because you have to worry about speed.

    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

    Counter... uh no more than 1. But the way to finish the job is just to have a fast team. Garchomp's speed limits him from sweeping.

    4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

    Not that I know of other than Ice Fang on things like Gliscor.

    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

    Wob is both more threatening and centralizing, and Deoxys-E is just more centralizing.
  9. Syberia

    Syberia [custom user title]
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    I agree. It has always been my opinion that usage should be the aspect of a pokemon that is considered the least when trying to determine its tier status (especially as it relates to OU and Ubers). What's really more important is the impact a pokemon has when it is used, as opposed to how much it's used. For example, Wobbuffet hung out down at #46, but there's no doubt in my mind and the minds of the majority of Smogon users that it belongs in ubers, because of what it does when it is used. Similarly, Blissey has always been only slightly behind Garchomp in terms of usage, and was #1 in usage during R/S/E, but you never heard anyone seriously complaining that she should be uber.
  10. Bourbon

    Bourbon

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    1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

    I would be tempted to run Modest Starmie sometimes, also I wouldn't use HP Ice so much... Fire and Grass tend to be more useful. I would also use DDmence more, because I wouldn't get forced out by Scarfchomp all the time. I would also aim for 329 speed, not 333 on my pokemon.

    2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

    Yes. I typically have two Levitators or Flyers. I have a Steel type or two, and usually two pokemon faster than Garchomp. Every pokemon I have can do something to it, I even have Encore on my Alakazam so I can force it to repeat Swords Dance if I'm that desperate.

    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

    See above. I have all my pokemon ready to hit it hard, I have lots of steels, levitators, and faster pokemon.

    4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

    Yes. DDmence isn't used because SDchomp does it better, and Scarfchomp can revenge kill it. SD Gliscor isn't used either, despite how awesomely fun it is.

    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

    No. While Gengar is awesome and can sleep it's counters, Garchomp can easily take fatal attacks thanks to Yache and Sand Veil, and has near perfect coverage with it's STAB moves.
  11. Jenigmat

    Jenigmat

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    1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

    No, my only Steel type (Metagross) can't do shit to Garchomp anyways and so I don't have anything resisting Outrages, most of my team that carries an Ice type attack doesn't particularly do so because of Garchomp and I don't have a designated Garchomp counter. Everything I have that can take Salamence or 'Nite can take care of garchomp, and without Garchomp I'd still maintain the same team to get those two.

    2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?


    Again no, I don't particularly sit down to change a team for any specific pokemon unless that pokemon has been a problem, which Garchomp hasn't.

    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

    I don't have a definite counter, I usually do a couple of different things to take care of it.

    4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

    In a way, yes. Salamence and Dragonite make it important to have Ice moves, but those two alone wouldn't require it. Garchomp is definitely enough to make the choice Ice over something else, to the point where my TTar carries Ice Beam over a STAB move. I probably wouldn't add another pokemon just to counter Garchomp, but I do have a healthy amount of Ice moves.

    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp?
    This is a tough one. I personally don't find Garchomp as big a threat as things like Gengar or Azelf, both of which are faster and hit just about as hard. SDChomp's require a turn to set up, which is often enough for me to neuter the Garchomp. Choiced chomp's, in my opinion worse than SD ones, can't do shit if they're locked into a ground move against an immunity. At the same time, I'm not gonna say that Garchomp isn't an amazing pokemon. That retarded 102 is my biggest problem with Chomp, and I think that above all other pokemon that have high speed and high attack, Chomp has bulk behind him. But the same thing goes for other bulky attackers, and so I don't think Chomp is too much more centralising than things like Gengar. Chomp is definitely up there though.
  12. BlakBlastoise

    BlakBlastoise

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    No. Garchomp is not the only fast hysical pokemon in the game.
    No. Garchomp is not the only fast hysical pokemon in the game.
    There are plenty of pokemon that can handle Garchomp. In my opinion to focus too much on a single pokemon is fucking stupid.
    Yes in a way, but i think it affects the metagame just like every other pokemon out there.
    Blissey and Salamence. Bliss is a fucking pain to battle. If your team has no Blissey killer it's GG. Salamence in my opinnion is more dangerous than any other pokemon out there. You don't know if it is specs, banded, dragon dance, mixed or even a bulky variation of one of those. if you predict wrong, go to your special wall and it DD's you are pretty much fucked. If you predict wrong and go to your physical wall, your physical wall is either dead or close to that. Every time i see a Salamence i have to sacrifice somthing. just to see what the fuck it wants to do. This is why Salamence is my favorite OU pokemon. It's just too deadly.
  13. Lesha

    Lesha

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    Mine wouldn't, I'd just use a different physical sweeper, in fact, Garchomp isn't even all that great, I mean, almost every team carries a Garchomp counter and then it has a backup plan if Garchomp screws there origional counter over.

    Actually, no, I think expireienced team builders such as myself, at least I know we do at Marriland, build teams to be able to do good in any situation, Garchomp is only one in over 470 pokemon we can encounter while battling.

    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
    4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
  14. SilenceMist

    SilenceMist

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    1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

    No. It would change slightly as I no longer have to carry an ice move on my physical walls.

    2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

    No I don't really see the point in focusing on just one dangerous pokemon. If I focus on Garchomp too much I could possibly have a problem with other pokemon, and Garchomp's just no threatening enough for me to allow that.

    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

    I usually have one physical wall that can handle Chomp and a revenge killer. However, the physical wall I have can also handle other pokemon as well so it's not like I specifically have it to counter Chomp.

    4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

    Many offensive pokemon can impact the popularity of many sets. Many people that see a set that Heatran counters will change it simply because Heatran counters it. Same with other offensive pokemon. Garchomp's not special in this regard.

    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

    Heatran. Gengar. Lucario. Blissey
  15. Pimplup

    Pimplup

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    1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
    A little bit I guess.
    Well, I would have room for another sweeper, and a chance to enlighten some UU's.

    2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
    Yes, every time I think of a moveset for my Pokemon, it involves either countering Garchomp or surviving it's attacks, one way or another.

    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
    Sometimes I have 1 pokemon, and sometimes I have a couple. I always have Jolteon on my team so it can outspeed and OHKO with HP Ice. I also like Suicune as well, it can survive an EQ, or if the Chomp SD's it can always Roar it away.

    4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
    Yes, and so much so, that most of the Pokemon in the current metagame pack HP Ice, so they can have some way of damaging Chomp. It's getting way out of hand...

    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
    Gengar is close, but BulkyGyara is threatening in which it can DD and start to OHKO and outspeed everything. It can also Taunt walls so they have no way of impeding it.

    Well, that's what I have to say, hope the decision of Chomp is made soon.
  16. Brawley

    Brawley
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  17. Kietharr

    Kietharr

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    1. Not really, he's not much more threatening than Gyarados. The big difference is Garchomp has better typing but is slower (given one setup move) and more fragile (generally speaking). I'd still be packing a good deal of ice and electric moves. I have two pokemon somewhat capable of switching in on Chomp for a kill and another two who will outspeed non scarf sets (who are raped by my switchins anyways) and revenge. Three of them fuck Gyarados up just as hard.

    2. Not so much as preparing for dragon types in general. I always pack more ice moves than I'd feasibly need. I think my current team has four pokemon toting ice attacks (3 ice beams and a HP ice) and another two using thunderbolt (plus one with grass knot). Boltbeam has always been popular.

    3. Having exactly one counter for a top tier OU threat is fucking dumb, sorry. I carry multiple counters for all of the top 10 bar gengar.

    4. What pokemon doesn't? Should we ban blissey because it encourages Infernape to pick close combat over focus blast?

    5. This is a loaded statement as it's saying that he's exceptionally centralizing in the first place. Yes, there are things that pack as much power as Chomp does, SD lucario is arguably just as scary of a setup with Extremespeed killing anything that isn't either bulky or resistant regardless of their speed, with extremely powerful STAB close combat to kill anything that's bulky enough to survive it. Gyarados is just about as scary.

    I feel he's somewhat in limbo and arguable, but personally I don't think he's really all that frightening.
  18. Chimera

    Chimera

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    If Garchomp was pushed to uber, I can only imagine that a new threat would become the target. The only way I could see it validating uber status was if it either broke a fundamental game concept (Wobby) or on its own invalidated a significant number of pokemon. It does neither, so it's just a really good poke that needs to be accounted for when buildling a team, just like Salamence Gyarados, Lucario, Infernape, Tyranitar, Gengar, etc. All those guys are dangerous attackers because of stats, typing, and versatility (except Gyarados, who's just a beast).
  19. Fabbles

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    1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
    Dramatically? No. The most that would probably change is how they are EVed, depending on the sweeper(s) that emerge(s) the most after Chomp is banned.

    2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
    Slightly, but out of usage, not necessarily power. I know I am more inclined to run into Garchomp than say Dragonite.

    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
    Having only one way to counter something is very risky, so I try to have multiple ways to deal with certain threats.

    4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
    Absolutely. I am sure new sets will arise after Chomps ban to better deal with the rest of the metagame.

    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
    Of course. Overlooking any sweeper in the metagame can cause certain disaster for most teams. I think Salamence can come back to almost the dominance it had in ADV, save Stealth Rock.
  20. nitnit

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    1. Yes, they would not all have a method of dealing with Garchomp. Dnite and Mence can be dealt with stealth rocks or rock attacks in general if needed.
    2. Yes, he's the most overused pokemon in the game...
    3. Usually
    4. Yes, usage of ice and dragon type moves that can deal a lot of damage to garchomp increases.
    5. No, though if the metagame shifts to offense then Deoxys-S might increase in threat/centralization.


    I think I might just take it upon myself to write a real thread about garchomp since this is getting ridiculous. (Yes, I might actually try to contribute something in the nera future)
  21. Dr.Traveler

    Dr.Traveler

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    There's always a lot of talk about banning Garchomp....

    But I find myself wondering whether if Manaphy or the Twins came back from the Ubers would that solve the problem?

    I'd also wonder about Stealth Rocks. Stealth Rocks helps eliminate probably the best Garchomp counter in the game from contention. What if the 'Rocks went?
  22. nitnit

    nitnit

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    Then salamence, gyarados, and dragonite would rise a lot I believe. We'd also see more pokemon with great potential be used for a change (moltres, charizard, articuno), but mence and gara would probably dominate.
  23. Flash_gearz

    Flash_gearz

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    1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

    Not really. A change here might happen, but thats it.


    2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

    NO actually, garchomp is usually somthing I think of after alot of others. He has actually a surprising amount of things that can kill him, most of my teams usually have 2-3 counters just from me building it.

    3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

    I have about 3 on my 2 teams right now. Usually my idea is switch in a counter hit it hard, and get as much damage as possible, then KO wiht a revenge killer, but it's always changing. It just needs a bit more strategy to kill.

    4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

    Yes I think so. People are so worried, they give up the better set, to counter Chomp better. Cressy would get almost no use if he wasn't here. While Somthing like a BellyZard gets outspeeded, and KOed from it.

    5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp

    Nothing as threating, it's hard to match something that almost always gets a kill when it switches in. Though I think that Salamence can come close with the right build. I don't think it's overcentralizing the game too much. It's just that it fits into nearly every team well, and any team can use atleast 1 of his many sets
  24. Dr.Traveler

    Dr.Traveler

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    Which is better: Gyarados Domination or Garchomp?

    BulkyDos does a number on almost every iteration of Garchomp (except ChainChomp) as long as Stealth Rocks are not on the table.

    I'd personally rather face a Gyarados dominated metagame. He arguably has more counters than Garchomp.
  25. nitnit

    nitnit

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    I'd rather face a metagame that isn't dominated by a select few sources honestly. Also what are these Gyarados counters in a metagame without SR? (just curious)
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