Garchomp and this Metagame

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I'd rather face a metagame that isn't dominated by a select few sources honestly. Also what are these Gyarados counters in a metagame without SR? (just curious)
Slowbro off the top of my head for one. Celebi also poses a threat to BulkyDos I hear.
 
I'd assume Porygon2, Cressy, Tangrowth, and Starmie as the better ones. Cressy not as much due to crap electric attack, but it stil works
 
Gyarados can dragon dance then use Ice Fang on Celebi... I'll give you slowbro though. So SR-less metagame gyarados has 1 counter so far.


Edit: I meant gyarados.
 
Ice Fang is not a huge threat to celebi, not to mention running it means you are stopped cold by starmie, vaporeon, slowbro, any water type really.

And let's face it, every metagame has a half dozen or so threats that stand out above the rest. OU has garchomp, gyara, gengar, UU has swellow and kabutops in rain teams, hell even the little cup has people fearing to see murkrow or a scarf'ed cranidos.
 
Bulkydos can dragon dance then use Ice Fang on Celebi... I'll give you slowbro though. So SR-less metagame gyarados has 1 counter so far.
Wow. How does SR counter Gyarados, how many hits that aren't normally OHKO/2HKO are opened up by that piddly 25% damage he'll probably take once if at all per match? It's not like anyone runs sash gyara. Gyarados has more true counters than Chomp does even without SR. No bulkydos carries ice fang, no bulkydos that doesn't want to get walled by any water pokemon in the game or forgo STAB boosted waterfall, celebi destroys it with 120bp STAB grass knot. Weezing is a counter considering it threatens a 2HKO (or a burn, which is as bad as being dead for gyara) on all variations and can take a hit even after a DD.

Anyways, back to Garchomp please.
 
Funny, Husk's Gyarados (you know number 1 team right now) has ice fang. Seems to help him out. I didn't mean bulkydos (check edit, sorry about that). Honestly, having three attacks and huge coverage > taunt in my opinion.

I said SR is a counter to gyarados? Interesting. I believe I said that gyarados and salamence would become more useful and dominant without the prescence of stealth rock. Stealth rock helps keep switching them in and out painful. This has also been said before inside the stealth rock discussion thread

But yes, Garchomp is a beast, but there's no point in people QQing about him beating them, we need to just hold a legit test.
 

chaos

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The Garchomp vote will be different than the ones for Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S: a secondary ladder will be made on the Smogon server and only those who have actually participated in the ladder will get the opportunity to vote.

That being said, we might revisit Deoxys-S once Garchomp is removed.
 
Sounds good chaos. Honestly, colin's policy of "lol unban wobby randomly" was pretty dumb. With the metagame probably shifting to offense, revisiting D-S after seeing him in that environment might be interesting.
 
if Husk jumped off a bridge, would you? We were discussing one pokemon, not an entire team. Husk's position on the latter is at least equally if not more attributable to his ability and prediction skill.

I can't believe you just dropped Husk's name and team like it actually means something.
 
You're an idiot. I usually refrain from calling someone something in this sort of discussion, but you are. I meant what I said as an example that Ice Fang on gyarados works. With that set, how does running ice fang run you cold vs. other water types

as you claimed:

not to mention running it means you are stopped cold by starmie, vaporeon, slowbro, any water type really.
*facepalm*
 

Aldaron

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1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
1. Abso-fucking-lutely. Because...

2. I prepare for Garchomp on EVERY OU team SIGNIFICANTLY more than ANY other Pokemon, Gengar / Lucario / Salamence / Tyranitar / Deoxys-S / Wobbuffet included. In fact, I ALWAYS have a Steel on my OU teams SPECIFICALLY for Garchomp, and if the Steel isn't Bronzong / Skarmory, I usually tend to Scarf it, like Heatran, Metagross and Jirachi. When I have a potentially open slot, on a Pokemon like Heatran, Gengar or Celebi, I tend to lean towards Hidden Power Ice SOLELY because of Garchomp's existence. Not just that though. When I rate my team, the FIRST thought that comes to mind is: Does Garchomp OHKO, outspeed this and have little fear and therefore able to set up? If so, it's probably gone from my team. Note I still use Magnezone / Kingdra because both are capable of preventing Garchomp from Swords Dancing on me. Every team of mine, due solely to Garchomp, has a Choice Scarfer with an Ice move and a Steel to absorb Outrage.

3. I usually have around 3 ways minimum, whether HP Ice on ScarfTran, HP Ice on ScarfGar, Ice Shard on Weavile, Ice Beam on a bulky Water, Bronzong / Skarmory etc. etc. I emphasize minimum, because every Pokemon on my team has a way of preventing SPECIFICALLY a Garchomp sweep. This is also why I am very hesitent to use Choice item users besides Choice Scarf, as I hate the potential set up turn they grant to Garchomp.

4. Absolutely. Without ScarfChomp serving as a check against offensive DD Salamence and Dragonite, those two would run those sets much more often. Scarf Gengar (or Gengar in general, as now due to Yache's popularity I have seen Expert Belt Gengar carry HP Ice solely to lure Garchomp in on a Thunderbolt) would not carry HP Ice. The need for HP Ice on Scarf Heatran or Ice Punch on Agility / Scarf Metagross would be gone. Gyarados would certainly carry Ice Fang less. Without Garchomp, I would NEVER run Ice Beam on an Expert Belt Tyranitar, even for Hippowdon / Gliscor. Celebi and Bronzong would never run HP Ice for fear of Garchomp's supreme sweeping powers. Starmie / Swampert could run Thunderbolt / HP Electric (for Gyarados) as opposed to Ice Beam. Vaporeon could more confidently run its Wish set with the more dependable STAB move than with the centralizing Ice move. Basically...Garchomp influences everything a shitload.

5. No. Absolutely not. No way, no how.

However...I am not for banning Garchomp :P

I think unbanning Lati@s without Soul Dew (drastically reducing the viability of the Yache Set due to outspeeding and OHKOing with Dragon Pulse), unbanning Deoxys-D and Manaphy (both defensively capable of taking a hit and responding with Ice Beam) and keeping Deoxys-S in OU is more than enough to deal with the Garchomp issue :P
 
I'd assume Porygon2, Cressy, Tangrowth, and Starmie as the better ones. Cressy not as much due to crap electric attack, but it stil works
Porygon2 is the best, 100% Gyarados counter in the game. Intimidates it, so if Gyarados doesn't DD, it has -1 attack, if it does DD, it has 0 attack. Thunderbolt OHKOs, and Porygon2 can't even get 2HKOd by Adamant Life Orb Gyarados. Porygon2 also has Recover.

It also makes a good switch in to Vaporeon, Jolteon, Heatran and DDmence. Porygon2 is so useful, but no one uses him.
 

Chou Toshio

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1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

YES. At the very least, I wouldn't be packing my own garchomp:naughty:, which is already a big change.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

Maybe not, but I definitely prepare the team to use my own garchomp more effectively.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

Considering there are 3-4 different variants of garchomp around, how could a successful team not have multiple ways of dealing with it (or any other multi-set pokemon in the game)?

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Uh, yeah-- as does every other pokemon.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

No. All that needs to be said.

I don't think your questions really hit the problem on this, but there you go.
 

jrrrrrrr

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1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Yes. I would use a lot fewer Steel-types and a lot fewer Ice moves. Also, I would have to find something else to take up the last spot on all of my teams, since if I'm stuck in the team builder, I just go with an SDYacheChomp and get 2 free kills in every match with it. It's cool to have something so easy that can have that much of an impact on every single match, it really makes my decisions so much easier. I just love it when I don't have to use any skill to win a match. (If you haven't gotten it by now, I think that Garchomp is broken)

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

Yes, I for one am sick of having to base my entire team around beating SDYacheChomp. It is by far the best pokemon in OU, and by far the most used pokemon. Not carrying at least 2 counters to it means that you will lose most of your matches.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

Since there is no 1 counter to Garchomp, I obviously have to carry more than one way of beating it.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Yes, anything weak to Ground and anything that doesn't resist Dragon is suddenly a lot less usable. Anything that uses Electric attacks is asking for a free Garchomp switch. Garchomp doesn't so much make things less popular as much as it does make things useless.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

No, absolutely not and there never will be. Garchomp outclasses every sweeper in OU (except maybe Deoxys-Speed, but D-S actually has counters so Garchomp still wins) and tbh I wouldn't be surprised if Garchomp's lead over #2 Gengar was at 20 million points by the end of next month.

I am sick of every match coming down to a Garchomp speed tie or a Deoxys vs YacheChomp. This is centralization right before our eyes. Garchomp is broken in OU, and usage statistics combined with playing experience tell me this. I don't think that unbanning Lati@s and Deoxys will "solve the problem". Introducing more broken pokemon to make the already broken ones look worse is not a good idea.
 
I can't wait until the Garchomp poll. This one will be even better than the Deoxys-E one... I think it may go 50/50. I for one don't think Garchomp is too broken but I'll save that for later.
 
I can't wait either. I'm going to post the most amazing essay ever written, so my vote counts for sure... Garchomp is gonna get banned so badly when Jumpman16 reads my masterpiece XD
 
I just don't see banning Garchomp doing anything to make the OU metagame "healthier." Perhaps I'm just missing it, after learning from nitnit that I am apparently an idiot. It's not going to slow down the offensive pace of the metagame, or allow a significant number of pokes into the tier.

It's good, so's Deoxys S, so's Gyarados, so's all the other things I listed. You gotta be able to stop it.
 
I called you an idiot for a completely unrelated point. I was actually going against the idea that removing stealth rock changes anything. Personally I'm not going to have a solid opinion either way about garchomp until we see some testing on the smogon shoddy server.
 
1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
Yes I believe my team would change dramatically without Garchomp. I would not need so many Ice moves.There would stilll be Salamence and Dragonite but they are not as popular in the OU metagame.
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
Yes it is the number one threat in OU. You almost have to think of different Garchomp sets as different Pokemon. You deal with Yache Chomp differently than Chain Chomp or Scarf Chomp
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
Yes I have more than one way because of Yache Chomp and the different sets he can run.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
Yes he does. Most Pokemon that it would be viable to have Ice Beam or Hidden Power Ice and are faster than Chomp or can take a hit from him carry an Ice move.
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
No, nothing comes close. Sure other Pokemon like Gyarados and Lucario are threatning but they don't take two Pokemon to counter.
 
1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

I'm not sure if it would be "dramatically" but my team would certainly change (as it would if any of the popular OUs were taken out of the picture). I probably wouldn't feel the need to use Deoxys anymore as I mostly have him to revenge kill Garchomps and there would definitely be less ice moves used on my team. I would continue to use steel types as their many resistences and immunities are helpful for a lot of Pokemon besides Garchomp.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

Yes. I feel the need to have at least two Pokemon that can deal with him because of things like Sand Veil and Yache berry. I find that if I don't give him extra consideration when team-building, the team will end up losing to him.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

I don't have any Garchomp "counters" but most of my teams end up having two Pokemon with an ice move just for him. My current team has an Infernape with Hidden Power Ice AND a Deoxys with Ice Beam. I used to use Grass Knot or Thunderpunch on Infernape but found that I needed an extra ice move to help counter Chomp. Ice does offer nice coverage, though, so I can't say whether I'd change that if he was unbanned now.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Definitely but there are other threats that do the same thing. Hidden Power Ice is very common on Pokemon mainly because of Garchomp but you'll also find Pokemon using electric moves for Gyarados/having a Lum berry for lead Bronzong/carrying Shed Shell for Magnezone/etc. It's hard to say if Garchomp is really different in this regard.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

No, definitely not. Gengar comes close, though. Salamence would be if he had a tiny bit more speed.
 
1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
Firstly, I would not have to pack a steel or a revenge-killer or counter to Garchomp. Currently I pack both a counter and a revenge-killer although I rarely use my Steel to block Outrage.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
Usually I do, Garchomp is one of the main offensive forces in OU and it is one thing that I always make a note to prepare for. I agree with jrrrrrrr, I would not want to pack both counters and revenge-killers and a steel for every team, just for SDYacheChomp.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

On almost all of my teams that I have, I have a counter, a revenge-killer and a Bulky Steel just to take Garchomp. I would lose to a well-played YacheChomp if I didn't pack these, and even in spite of all this it still manages to inflict considerable damage on teams.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
I think this is not much of Garchomp completely outclassing sweepers and thus making them unviable, or that pokemon is setup bait for Garchomp, but rather it is more of teambuilding wherein the first thing that comes to mind when considering a physical sweeper is Garchomp.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

No, Garchomp is by far the most threatening and centralising sweeper, by far it requires packing at the very least a counter for it - whose efforts may be negated due to Yache Berry.
 

JabbaTheGriffin

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1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Yes. I feel like Garchomp really stifles my creativity, whether it's through forcing me to make sure I have it fully covered on my teams or because on offensive teams there's no reason for me not to use it. You can bet your ass I'll be using crazy concepts on the Garchompless Ladder.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

Yes. Gengar comes close though (for some reason, even in Advance, I've always had a Gengar problem). But for Gengar I usually make sure I have one Pokemon that can constantly switch in on it. For Garchomp I usually make sure I have a steel to tank Outrage, a wall that can take out Yache Berry, and something faster that can revenge kill it.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

^

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Yes. Like many people have stated already, Chomp probably hinders DDmence/nite usage. Also I've had this feeling that a metagame without Chomp is going to be met with a huge jump in general Salamence usage.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

Like I stated earlier, Gengar always seems to have my number, but it's nowhere close to the guaranteed 1-2 kills that is Yache Chomp
 
Intead of answering this questionaire I'll just combine all my thoughts. Basically, and obviously, Garchomp changes the way I team build, and same for many experienced and unexperienced players. If Garchomp didn't exist, people wouldn't have to put let's say HPIce on Zapdos/Celebi/Magnezone. This in turn allows Swampert/Gyarados etc easier switch ins because the of the lack of HPGrass/Electric/Fire. People wouldn't have to have multiple counters like Zapdos, Bronzong, and Celebi specifically EV'd and move set to "counter" Garchomp. Garchomp is by far the most overcentralized pokemon in this metagame and we are obviously getting sick of it! And its kinda funny how much of a "fad" Garchomp is. One week its all about the YacheSD, another week its all about the Scarf, and now adays I see CBChomp everywhere! That's besides the point, but it just shows how much of an impact Garchomp brings on every single player.
 
i'll answer the questionnaire
1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

not dramatically i will still be running the same moves as before only change would be that i would still be using mence or my current thought, heracross

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
not really, I play to what I need and pack a good mix of moves, I run a good ammount of electric moves as well as ice so i dont see garchomp really making a differance

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

Ihave a unique setup, i use ninjask to boost the speed of metagross instead of agility giving me the free ice punch slot, i also can use infernape and porygon-z the same way

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

I think it adds a slight ice heavy metagame, whether that will change if garchomp went I dont know

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

i don't think so, gengar in #2 has some counters, namely steel types

the questions are not really making a point. in my view only testing will determine what happens, but garchomp is discussed every month.
 
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