Garchomp and this Metagame

[Captain Falcon]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Yeah, for starters i wouldn't be running my own Garchomp, also a lot less stuff would be carrying HP ice to deal with him. I would also not have to have a steel on every team I built to take his outrages.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

To a certain extent, there is a sort of "core" of Pokémon I make sure I am able to counter when team building (mainstream stuff like gyara and mence) and Garchomp is part of that core.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

Due to its diversity, you have to have more than one counter. It is always important to have a backup anyway when you bring an ability like sand veil into the equation. I try to make sure that it doesn't have a safe switch in against the majority of my team.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

It increases hp ice usage drastically on Pokémon. It also reduces the amount of Mence/Nite being used. Every Pokémon has an impact on the metagame though, so this is a bit meh

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

Possibly Mence or Luke, but nowhere near the same extent as Garchomp.

 

[Chimera]

I also have to note that 4 out of 5 of these questions really say nothing as to whether Garchomp is unfair, but simply affirm that it is good. Again, I cite Gyarados due to its ease of drawing a parallel.

I'll answer all the questions in terms of Gyara.

1. My team would change drastically if there was no Gyarados. I often build teams that are solid, yet due to a lack of water or grass types with the proper movesets I need to rethink them.

2. I have to prepare for Gyarados more than pokemon like Gengar or Heracross simply because of how many builds there are. I need something that can take a Bulkydos with Taunt or a more offensive-designed Dragon Dancer. And with the former I need to be able to handle all combinations of attacks, Waterfall with Stone Edge, EQ, or Ice Fang. Hell some even run Bite now to deal with Slowbro and Starmie.

3. I gotta have more than one way, a critical hit Stone Edge or Waterfall flinch could mean game over if I only have one counter. Usually I have one solid counter, like Starmie or Weezing, and one scarf'er who is faster than Gyara after one DD and can threaten an OHKO while barely surviving a hit if it has to, like PorygonZ, who can take a +1 Waterfall and threaten with tbolt.

4. Gyarados is one of the pokemon that makes walls very difficult to use due to the popularity of Taunt on it. suddenly Skarmory, Forretress, and Bronzong are rather useless against it. It's a big reason that I use those walls less. Granted, I play on wifi and Gyarados is a very common lead so it may be different than on shoddy.

5. I've already listed the big 6 who centralize the game. They are more critical in teambuilding than any other poke, and banning one won't suddenly make OU any better.

 

[Wulfspade]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
Hmmm I don't know if dramatically is the right word, I mean sure maybe one two pokes max would be something that I like more than just standard OU blah for countering it but really who wouldn't?
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building? Well I guess that one can tell from my first answer that yeah I do end up adding in a couple of counters specifically for Chomp.
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
The only thing I really hate about Garchomp is that the sets stick to basically the same moves but they sometimes require different counters.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
I'd say yes but I think it's mostly related to hidden power or elemental punch/fang type choice.
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp?
Hmmm maybe Lucario and Salamence, possibly Gengar, but then againI don't usualy don't have as much trouble with them.

 

[Bourbon]

*snip* "Gyarados >:( "

Theres this amazing duck thing called Porygon2, it's been mentioned on every single page by me and other individuals... try reading the thread before you post. it Intimidates Gyarados and Thunderbolts it for a OHKO... it has Recover too, so yeah... Gyarados has an awesome 100% counter. Don't forget Tangrowth either. Stop comparing Gyarados to Garchomp.

 

[_PiSo_]

1: No, not at all.
2: No
3: I would say i have two, but the second just happens to be a pokemon with a good ice attack that i would've used whether or not garchomp existed.
4: By himself? probably not. but I'm pretty sure that he does contribute to the popularity of ice attacks.
5: Yes. Gyarados. especially with the DDGyara set.Lucario can also be a pain to deal with. Ttar as well..

 

[Dr.Traveler]

I think unbanning Lati@s without Soul Dew (drastically reducing the viability of the Yache Set due to outspeeding and OHKOing with Dragon Pulse), unbanning Deoxys-D and Manaphy (both defensively capable of taking a hit and responding with Ice Beam) and keeping Deoxys-S in OU is more than enough to deal with the Garchomp issue :P

I could get behind at least getting Manaphy back into the OU.

I don't think you have to ban Garchomp. There are other things that could be done to OU to avoid that like reintroducing other pokemon, banning Stealth Rocks, etc. I just don't think there's mch you can do about him in the current environment.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Theres this amazing duck thing called Porygon2, it's been mentioned on every single page by me and other individuals... try reading the thread before you post. it Intimidates Gyarados and Thunderbolts it for a OHKO... it has Recover too, so yeah... Gyarados has an awesome 100% counter. Don't forget Tangrowth either. Stop comparing Gyarados to Garchomp.

Just chiming in to say that Skiddle's absolutely right. If you have a Porygon2 on your team, Gyarados is nearly a non-issue. Gardevoir is also very good if it is appropriately EVed. Porygon2's utility isn't limited to being a Gyarados counter, either. With BoltBeam, Recover, and space for an additional support move (Toxic, Thunder Wave, Magic Coat), it's a solid team player.

No such Pokémon exists for Garchomp. Garchomp is also less predictable, has better stats, and has much better type coverage with its attacks. Please stop comparing the two.

 

[Kagster123]

I've also found Milotic and Slowbro to be excellent counters if using HP Electric, especially against the weaker Bulkydos.


After playing a little today, i realized that Garchomp is less annoying then Deoxys-E, Azelf, Gengar, and Togekiss.

 

[Kingdrom]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Probably. Garchomp poses a threat like none other. Only the most carefully EV'ed Bronzong and Cresselia stand a chance. But the threat of Chainchomp is enough to make sure that you can't just use Bronzong. This is the way most pokemon used to deal with Bronzong fail- they can't handle one particular set or move on a certain set. This is why everyone must have a counter to every Garchomp- you could expect Garchomp to appear 25% of the time on any given team- with the chances even higher on sandstorm teams.

That being said, I would not be tempted to use Bronzong and Scarf Hp Ice Heatran as much. And Steels in general would be less useful. I'd be using Hp Grass and Electric on my Heatran instead of Ice.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

Yes, definitely. On my team I have a combination of Gliscor+Starmie+Random Scarfer with HP Ice to take care of Garchomps, and even that doesn't work sometimes due to sandstorm.
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
Already answered. The ability for a team to deal with Garchomp is probably one of the biggest factors in whether it can suceed or not. Tyranitar/Celebi/Heatran/Starmie/Zapdos/Gliscor teams work well in part because they have multiple ways to deal with the many flavors of Garchomp.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
Absolutely. I love SD Gliscor, yet if I use him, then I'm using an inferior Gliscor. I'm sure that Hp Ice infernape, Hp Ice Celebi, Hp Ice Bronzong, and many more are popular because Garchomp is ubiquitous. Garchomp is not alone in this- it just occupies the niche of general sweeper (yes, I know, an oxymoron). But Garchomp basically has become the benchmark for a sweeper.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

No. Dealing with Garchomps has become second nature for most people, since it is truly hard to make a sucessful team that is completely Garchomp weak. Infernape doesn't have the perfect coverage and is frail. Lucario doesn't have enough speed and is similarly frail, but has 54873984372 resists to switch in on. Many pokemon can pose a threat through surprise. But only Garchomp has the defenses, speed, and offense as well as high Base Power moves and evasion in Sandstorm that allows it to be a large threat even when your opponent is prepared for it.

 

[Chimera]

But doesn't having to run Porygon2 fit into that idea of "overcentralizing?"

Maybe it does, but it seems like the bandwagon's been made, and like in previous discussions, there is no way out. It looks like Garchomp is headed for ubers if this level of support for the decision exists.

 

[deathshadow8895]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Nope, probably not. Maybe some small changes here and there, but not anything dramatic.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

Yes. It may be the reason why some of my teams are more physically defensive, in attempt to slow the land shark down.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

I have two ways of dealing with it. Maybe three if you include improvising.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Yes, mainly those ice/electric choices and what physical walls your going to use. A couple of Pokemon need some sort of ice attack to stay safe.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

I'd have to say Deoxys-S, mainly because of all it can do. It doesn't just sweep teams like chomp does, but it can wall or set up spikes. It's not as immediately threatening as Garchomp does, but it has it's own little unpredictability.

 

[feral_brute]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

I don't really know if there would necessarily be a "dramatic" change to my teams, but I would be less prone to carry a steel type as already mentioned, and use pokes like the other two OU dragons without fear of being revenged by Scarfchomp. Ice moves would still be important to my team because of the good type coverage they offer and the other OU threats that are hit by them as well. The use of flying types and levitators isn't just to avoid Garchomp, Earthquake is arguably one of, if not the best moves in the game, and there are plenty pokes that use it besides chomp.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

Generally speaking, yes. Why would I not prepare for the most popularly used poke in the entire OU metagame? (although with "Team Astral Projection" being posted, I won't be surprised when Deo-S' usage rockets upward as well). As said in previous posts I'm sure, chomp is just bulky enough, especially with yache or ev spreads with def/hp investments that having only one means of dealing with him could spell good game for you. I normally only prepare for a poke more than the other threats only if it poses a significant threat to my team because of how it's constructed. Garchomp always poses a threat.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

I always make sure to have a bulky ice beamer, but they also serve other purposes in my team as well. The use of pokes with speed tiers of 110 and over isn't because of chomp, but these pokes are generally really fast and great sweepers in their own regard. Do they help kill a weakened Garchomp? Yes, but I would use them anyways even if he were uber.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Yes and no. There are pokes, like Garchomp even, that pose a threat from 3 or 4 different sets they can run. There are, especially some utility pokes, that really only have maybe 1 set worth using on them for maximum efficiency. Gliscor causes some mix-lukes to run HP ice, and Garchomp cause some of his counters to run sets/spreads meant to counter him.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

Yes. Deoxys' usage will greatly increase because of the threat it poses to scarfers locked into moves, and weakened pokes it can easily pick off without having to run a scarf of its own. Garchomp is very threatening, but it has a lot more to do with what your particular team has problems with. I could run a team with 6 different counters to every possible chomp set, and have a huge azelf weakness persay. I agree that chomp is very powerful and capable of demolishing teams, prepared or not. I think testing an environment where he isn't present would allow for a more diverse metagame that would see increased usage in pokes that were in essence, weaker team members that Garchomp could replace much better. If he is removed, yes someone else will rise to the top of the usage list, but quit worrying about the effect his absence will have until its been tried.

 

[Taylor]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Most likely, yes. That only stands for the majority of my teams, though, as I have built teams in the past with Garchomp coverage not in mind. Fortunately I naturally end up constructing the team with two Pokemon that outspeed Garchomp and can deliver an Ice Beam / Dragon-type move anyway.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

There's always a chance that I may overprepare in favor to counter, for example, Gengar more than Garchomp. But, I generally aim for having complete Garchomp coverage (or atleast a strategy I find reasonable). It's not the most exciting threat to account for when making teams. My idea of a Garchomp counter is atleast two Pokemon that wield an Ice-type and/or Dragon-type move, preferably the latter of the two. To add to that, I must make sure that one of them will outspeed Garchomp. It's simple - activate Yache Berry with my bulkier Pokemon that will end up being 2HKOed, but immediately after, calling forth my second in order to revenge kill the opposing Garchomp.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

I think I have answered that question above. Yes, two counters minimum.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

I would be inclined to say yes. If it wasn't for Garchomp, Hidden Power [Ice] wouldn't be first priority on certain Pokemon, namely Celebi, Heatran, Zapdos and Bronzong, for instance. As mentioned, Starmie would be more suitable with Thunderbolt more often. Garchomp would influence Gyarados' moveset also, as there wouldn't be a need for Ice Fang if there was no Garchomp to OHKO.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

No. There are Pokemon whom are close - for example, Gengar, but are no way considered 'rivals' as they're clearly outclassed when it comes to centralizing the field of play and the teams that we have to resort to using in order for Garchomp coverage. People who voice Gyarados' power in OU, indicating that it's a far more dangerous and a severe threat, are fogetting that it has clear-cut counters that, more often than not, care for Gyarados and take him down instantly - Vaporeon, for example. That's not a guarantee when Garchomp is on the agender.

 

[Bourbon]

But doesn't having to run Porygon2 fit into that idea of "overcentralizing?"

Maybe it does, but it seems like the bandwagon's been made, and like in previous discussions, there is no way out. It looks like Garchomp is headed for ubers if this level of support for the decision exists.

There is also Vaporeon and Suicine with HP Electric... that's not terribly overcentralizing, because it's smart not to get walled by other waters anyways.

 

[G-Beast]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how? i use him, so mine probably would but if i didnt use him... yes... especially since i have seen Garchomp take down any OU pokemon given thr correct moveset, and if flinched occur etc(using fire fang). yachechomp solves alot of problems
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building? i always, always think about him, because of what mine has done, taken down hippowdon and gliscor and cresselia(crunch defense lower/critical)
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it? generally my garchomp deals with other garchomp, and if not, i let my salamence deal with the garchomp as a revenge killer, i dont like any of garchomps counters except weavile, so i dont run any of them.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon? definetly, i dont think bronzong or cresselia would be used nearly as much, due to the abundance of taunt.
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp. ehh... thats a tough call... especially with Deoxys-S being downgraded to OU(altho 'chomp can still waste him) tyranitar is there... but he is quite easy to stop.. at least for me

I use garchomp because i think he is amazing... however i dont think he is all powerful. lets face it, when your opponents garchomp has a SD down or is gonna ravage through you team with CB outrage or w/e else, or even if you use my crackheaded garchomp set, there is absolutely NO MARGAIN FOR ERROR. as the page about him says; "A single critical hit or miss due to sand stream evasion can spell disaster for any team" honestly i think this guy needs a focus sash weavile to revenge kill the safest... i mean garchomps defenses are better then swamperts... no harm in goign out of line to go a little more defensive so that minimum SpA requirement to OHKO him might get a little snag in it...
i think garchomp may end in ubers tier as well... lets be honest... garchomp can defeat so many ubers, its scary... lets look..:
Latios/Latias: Latios is OHKOed by dragon rush/outrage unboosted even unorbed everytime, and is outran if he is running modest; latios needs timid to defeat garchomp. Latias is the same thing, but even the defensive Lati@s just cant come into a SD outrage.. otherwise she can tho and easily OHKO with dragon pulse. she needs a timid nature to do anything to garchomp, it is my belief that jolly is generally better for ubers, but adamant has its uses.

Mewtwo: he needs to be careful of yachechomp and sand stream, although modest mewtwo can outrun jolly garchomp, if theres an adamant garchomp running the bulky sweeper set, mewtwo is done for.

Mew: again, yachechomp will be problems, but i think dragon pulse can fix it... just remember chomp outruns mew, a couple crunches will hurt, especially with the 20% defense lowering rate on crunch.

Lugia: hoo boy here we go.... Lugia barely scratches the OHKO mark with unstabbed ice beam on garchomp(296 sp atk) and is never EVed for it, and if it calm minds, garchomp will swords dance and make Lugia eat stone edges for breakfast, and if lugia ha dragon pulse instead of ice beam for some reason, it needs even MORE sp atk to OHKO garchomp, and 252 EVs wont get you that on the special sweeper set because of lugia's measely 90 base sp atk. Lugia can stall out garchomp though, but he really, really needs to watch out for orbed, SDed stone edges.

ho-oh: are you serious? stone edge kgothnxbai. just dont switch into sacred fire...

Kyogre: Garchomp cant do anything about the CS kyogre unless your also running a CS and get extremely lucky with outrage(critical hit) or if you yache your chomp and get lucky with outrage that way, all the while risking a modest CSer ice beam.

Groudon: he has soo much defense it isnt funny, but i think the chainchomp set can stand up to him, fire blasts from the sunny conditions and draco meteor, but be careful... CB EQ from groudon isnt pretty to get hit by.

RayQuaza: hmmm, hit-and-miss here, garchomp will defeat RayQuaza unless he has a DD down or is running a scarf, but only because he has more speed, thats it.

Deoxys-A: now this one is hard, real hard. generally, i think Garchomp will win UNLESS you are facing a naive/naughty deoxys-A and the ice beam isnt powerful enough to overpower the yache berry, in which case deoxys-A will obviously die.

Deoxys-N: seriously, i think deoxys-N is the best one of his forms to use against him, he will survive crunch unboosted except from CB chomp i think... not sure on that one.. but then cant he just ice beam him?

Deoxys-D: i think its way too risky to use Deoxys-D due to his low HP and that 'chomp is immune to thunder wave... get a SD or 2 and its all over for Deoxys-D.
now for 4th gen...

Palkia: this beast cannot stay into garchomp once he is in, outrage WILL OHKO. but as for countering... chomp obviously cant come into any dragon type moves, and needs to be extremely careful with surf, a shot from specs palkia will OHKO chomp with surf. but thunder, aura sphere, why not give it a try?

Dialga: he absolutely needs to kill Dialga in one shot, which probably will require adamant nature and a SD with life orb, since all dialga sets call for many HP EVs. the stall set is a tough one, he MAY be able to SD up, depending on what offensive move the dialga is running, this will take scouting.

Giratina: The Great Wall set may very well be garchomps match, unless garchomp has 1 or 2 SDs, in which case outrage will make giratina have to wait untill he is confused. even then it is risky, chomp might have a choice band, major prediction, or reflect support, is needed. i seriously dont think any of the other giratina movesets will be able to do anything to garchomp, except if giratina has draco meteor... but only then... a SD+orb+outrage will destroy an offensive giratina.

Manaphy: manaphy is no counter to garchomp, unless its crunch or stone edge on the CB set. otherwise dont even try it. im pretty sure manaphy will have trouble with a SD chomp that has a yache berry on hand.

Arceus: i really dont want to list out all of arceus' used types.... i really dont... any speed increasing nature Arceus will be able to, at the very least, revenge kill garchomp as long as they have dragon or ice judgement or some other attack of that type. steel arceus needs to be careful of garchomps that have a SD down.

Darkrai: im mentioning Darkrai last because darkrai is Garchomps ultimate nemesis if you ask me. as long as Darkrai can outrun him Garchomp will not win. why not invest a large portion of defensive EVs so you can make darkrai a counter? Dark void->ice beam(s), Garchomp stands no chance against a proper darkrai. obviously darkrai cant come in on SDed outrages... but you can definatly outun and revenge kill him.

since tyranitar is sometimes used in ubers, all of these ubers need to watch out for the sand stream boost, a miss because of it means they are screwed

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how? Not dramatically. But there would definately be less Ice Beams and more, you know, variety...
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building? No. Gyarados is fast and terribly hard to wall. Same with Dd Salamence. For all of Garchomp's power, he's very predictable.
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it? Three or four of my pokemon are set to take on Garchomp.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon? Not really. He just has the "if it can hurt chomp, teach it Ice Beam / HP Ice" idea forced onto every team.
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp. No.

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

The people who complain about Garchomp are the people who realize no pokemon in the game can switch in on, and defeat him.

 

[Instinctive]

I wish to make a couple points:

1. Garchomp is infinitely superior to Gyarados.

With one turn of setup on each poke, Chomp has +2 atk and Gyara has +1 atk, at about the same speed. Gyara doesn't have the speed to effectively run Choice Band for anything more than a surprise. It also lacks the speed for a Scarf set to be anything more than a surprise.

Gyara cannot make 101 HP or better Subs. Garchomp can. Gyara takes a 25% hit from SR and gets hurt by sandstorm. Garchomp takes 6.25% from SR and gets an evasion boost from SS. This comparison is now over. (But, also, Chomp has ZERO 100% counters. Gyara does)

2. Garchomps performance in Ubers has absolutely no impact whatsoever on whether or not we keep him OU.

3. No other poke is as threatening, here is why:

Lucario - needs Specs or Life Orb to do respectable damage, lots of relatively bulky guys (i.e: Bronzong) can stop him by taking a hit (omg you can even PREDICT and take a resisted ES!!!) and then KOing. Residual damage hurts, and anything faster with the ability to take an ES wins.

Salamence - Takes 25% from SR. Specsmence is locked into an attack, lacks top speed, and has counters. DD Mence is easier to take down because of its lower defenses, lower HP, and inherent SR induced frailty.

TTar - HIPPOWDON! Tar is really really slow, and lots of things can deal with it on predicted attacks, revenge kills, etc...

Infernape - CRESSELIA. Also extremely frail, usually needs to set up a NP.
SS + SR + Possible spikes + LO + Paper defenses = less threatening

Gengar - Sleep absorber, anything with a decent attack, Gengar is countered because it has weak defenses, and it is often scarfed and thus locked into one move. Also quite predictable...and...BLISSEY!

If you have any questions or disputes, feel free to post them and I will debate freely with you.

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

I wish to make a couple points:

1. Garchomp is infinitely superior to Gyarados.

With one turn of setup on each poke, Chomp has +2 atk and Gyara has +1 atk, at about the same speed. Gyara doesn't have the speed to effectively run Choice Band for anything more than a surprise. It also lacks the speed for a Scarf set to be anything more than a surprise.

Gyara cannot make 101 HP or better Subs. Garchomp can. Gyara takes a 25% hit from SR and gets hurt by sandstorm. Garchomp takes 6.25% from SR and gets an evasion boost from SS. This comparison is now over. (But, also, Chomp has ZERO 100% counters. Gyara does)

Thats a load. Gyarados can EASILY be EVed to outrun virtually anything after one DD. Gyarados does not have any 100% counters either barring maybe reflect Celebi. Gengar and Starmie are both taken out by properly EVed sets, and Weezing is 2HKOed by Life Orb DD Aqua Tail. Thunderbolt does not always OHKO. Gyarados can destroy a whole team one a single pokemon is weakened. Garchomp has every available pokemon loaded with HP Ice just to do anything to him.

2. Garchomps performance in Ubers has absolutely no impact whatsoever on whether or not we keep him OU.

True.

3. No other poke is as threatening, here is why:

Lucario - needs Specs or Life Orb to do respectable damage, lots of relatively bulky guys (i.e: Bronzong) can stop him by taking a hit (omg you can even PREDICT and take a resisted ES!!!) and then KOing. Residual damage hurts, and anything faster with the ability to take an ES wins.

Lucario has Extremespeed which can OHKO virtually anything fast enough to revenge kill him. LO SDed Bronzong is likely OHKOed by Close Combat with SR down.

Salamence - Takes 25% from SR. Specsmence is locked into an attack, lacks top speed, and has counters. DD Mence is easier to take down because of its lower defenses, lower HP, and inherent SR induced frailty.

DD mence isn't as easy to take down as you say. +1 S/A LO STAB Dragon Claw is rape. Its also FAST.

TTar - HIPPOWDON! Tar is really really slow, and lots of things can deal with it on predicted attacks, revenge kills, etc...

Besides Boah or mixed LO Tar, Hippowdon can usually win. Of course, not every team has a Hippowdon. Still, Chomp > TTar.

Infernape - CRESSELIA. Also extremely frail, usually needs to set up a NP.
SS + SR + Possible spikes + LO + Paper defenses = less threatening

NPed LOed Fire Blast can OHKO Cresselia.

Gengar - Sleep absorber, anything with a decent attack, Gengar is countered because it has weak defenses, and it is often scarfed and thus locked into one move. Also quite predictable...and...BLISSEY!

What the hell is Blissey going to do to Gengar? Get slept and either give an opposing sweeper a free switch in or miss-predict and have natural cure backfire as you switch out and they Hypnosis again.

If you have any questions or disputes, feel free to post them and I will debate freely with you.

 

[Bixby]

Old Man Jenkins it has been said a hundred times in this thread Gyara has a 100% counter. His name is Porygon 2.

 

[Bourbon]

I have a few problems with your logic, Old Man Jenkins...

1. Porygon2 is the ultimate Gyarados counter. Vaporeon with HP Electric and Suicine with HP Electric work great too.

2. I agree, Garchomp won't be "not banned" no matter how much he sucked in Ubers.

3. Extremespeed isn't the be all end all solution to Lucario's counters. So what, you're getting hit with a 160 power move off of 455 attack. It's about as powerful as Scarfchomp's Outrage. There are plenty of pokemon that are faster that can take a hit like this. Lucario has paper defenses, and his resistances can never make up for that.

DDmence, while powerful, lacks STAB Earthquake and Outrage, so while a 789 attack Dragon Claw is painful, Garchomp can wreak much more havoc with Swords Danced Outrage. Also, Salamence is frail on the special side, so his speed doesn't mean anything when every sturdy Ice Beamer that can take a DD Dragon Claw is a counter.

There are many counters for Tyranitar, not just Hippowdon. The best, IMO, is Hariyama. Resists Fire, Ice, Dark, Rock, and isn't weak to Earthquake. The worst Tyranitar can do is Focus Punch, but without Choice Band backing it, it won't hurt him much. Swampert continues to be a good counter, so does Machamp and Hitmontop.

Infernape is a little more difficult because if it's physical, it's usual counters (vaporeon, starmie) eat Thunderpunches. However, Tentacruel, Starmie and Vaporeon counter Mixape very well, and Uxie, Gliscor, Swampert or Cressilia can beat Physical infernapes no problem.

Gengar is pretty difficult, because it will just sleep you if it can't beat you. However, when Sleep Clause is activated (which is very likely) Gengar is no problem at all. Shadow Ball has terrible coverage, and Focus Blast has terrible accuracy. It doesn't matter if Gengar can hit everything nuetral... because 359 special attack firing off 120 power moves isn't too big of a deal.

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

I have a few problems with your logic, Old Man Jenkins...

1. Porygon2 is the ultimate Gyarados counter. Vaporeon with HP Electric and Suicine with HP Electric work great too.

Ok yes, Gyarados has some counters. But most teams that stick a Starmie or a non-Reflect Celebi on their team and call their Gyarados problems solved. Far more teams are vulnerable to Gyarados then they are to Garchomp.

2. I agree, Garchomp won't be "not banned" no matter how much he sucked in Ubers.

3. Extremespeed isn't the be all end all solution to Lucario's counters. So what, you're getting hit with a 160 power move off of 455 attack. It's about as powerful as Scarfchomp's Outrage. There are plenty of pokemon that are faster that can take a hit like this. Lucario has paper defenses, and his resistances can never make up for that.

Extremespeed still makes it very difficult to just shove a frail revenge killer on your team and call it good. Scarfchomp's Outrage is still very strong...

DDmence, while powerful, lacks STAB Earthquake and Outrage, so while a 789 attack Dragon Claw is painful, Garchomp can wreak much more havoc with Swords Danced Outrage. Also, Salamence is frail on the special side, so his speed doesn't mean anything when every sturdy Ice Beamer that can take a DD Dragon Claw is a counter.

Salamence is like Gyarados. People don't see it as a real DD threat and put one counter in. Late game it can easily finish off its counter, and just kill everything.

There are many counters for Tyranitar, not just Hippowdon. The best, IMO, is Hariyama. Resists Fire, Ice, Dark, Rock, and isn't weak to Earthquake. The worst Tyranitar can do is Focus Punch, but without Choice Band backing it, it won't hurt him much. Swampert continues to be a good counter, so does Machamp and Hitmontop.

I agree. Although CB EQ can 2HKO Hariyama.

Infernape is a little more difficult because if it's physical, it's usual counters (vaporeon, starmie) eat Thunderpunches. However, Tentacruel, Starmie and Vaporeon counter Mixape very well, and Uxie, Gliscor, Swampert or Cressilia can beat Physical infernapes no problem.

Gengar is pretty difficult, because it will just sleep you if it can't beat you. However, when Sleep Clause is activated (which is very likely) Gengar is no problem at all. Shadow Ball has terrible coverage, and Focus Blast has terrible accuracy. It doesn't matter if Gengar can hit everything nuetral... because 359 special attack firing off 120 power moves isn't too big of a deal.

 

[Bourbon]

I don't know why you would stay in a Choice Banded Earthquake though... every team is chock full of Levitators nowadays, thanks to Garchomp.

PS you guys, Hariyama makes a decent Heatran counter too :P

 

[Alice]

I think the main difference between gyarados and chomp (when trying to counter them) is that Gyara has a somewhat serious coverage issue:

If it lacks taunt (assuming the typical Waterfall/Ice Fang/EQ), then things like hariyama or swampert can phaze away, and since almost every team carries SR, getting into the field again will cripple enough to be not such a threat anymore. Heck, even skarm can come in a DD, phaze and then roost the damage done by DD waterfall.

If it has taunt, then...

-It lacks Ice Fang: even chomp (or even better, salamence) can deal with it, and becomes setup bait for things like cm or subseed celebi.
-It lacks EQ: any water type can wall this...

Also, an opposing gyara is many times a nice counter, and that leads to the need to switch one of its basic attacks for Stone Edge, which again gives him some holes in its type coverage.

So far, Chomp can cover ANYTHING with EQ, Fireblast/Fire fang, Outrage/dragon claw... being its only concern to be locked into Outrage, but by the time it happens it usually brings something down with it (and cripple other things too)

 

[Glen ^^]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Yes, and a lot.
My entire strategy focus on taking down steels/counters and let chomp loose. Sad thing this works really well.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

Three Pokemon from my team counters him.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

Only one way, Intimidate and switch to a steel.
If said steel dies, I can at least revenge kill him.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Of course.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

Deoxys-e, durable, fast, great move pool to make up for the lack of raw power.