Garchomp and this Metagame

[D3FAULT]

Garchomp on its own is not what is making Standard a 20-pokemon metagame. Garchomp is just one of the problems. Personally, I think UU/BL with a few specific OU allowed would make for a much more interesting and balanced format than anything we're currently playing. Don't based it on usage statistics, use real design principles and analysis instead. If anyone wants to try, I can help with the system analysis, I'm good at that.

This.

I always thought that we they should re-name the tiers, and instead of basing them on usage, base them on stats/abilities/move pools/type coverage/survivability, etc. I just don't see it happening though. This isn't the thread for the discussion though*. Regardless, I agree.

(*Maybe a thread about this should be made? I doubt it would gain enough traction for it to change anything, but it can't hurt too much to try. At least we could get some opinions on the matter.)

 

[Instinctive]

Get some experience before posting this shit. You talk like you know what you're saying, but you clearly don't. Gyarados is a very effective Choice Band pokemon, and actually maxes out at a very respectable 287 speed. No, it doesn't have the 2HKO power of CB Garchomp or Heracross, but that doesn't make it not effective, especially considering Gyarados makes a very good switch into threats as I said earlier.

If BandGyara was as effective as you say, it would be used a lot, correct? I have not seen one in...so long...that I can't even remember the last time.

If you think Gengar is predictable, then you must get fucked over quite a bit. While there are obviously popular sets, Gengar is far from predictable, and Blissey is not a 100% counter, with Hypnosis, Substitute, Focus Punch and Focus Blast all attacks in Gengars aresenal.

How many SubPunching Gengars have you seen in the last month? I have seen ZERO. I believe I stated, use a sleep absorber then go to your counter, but you must have missed that one...and If it does run SubPunch, it loses 2 attacks worth of coverage, making it much easier to counter.

Hippowdon beats physical Tyranitar sets, but not mixed or special. All it takes is 96 SpA EVs and an Expert Belt for Mixtar to 2HKO Hippowdon with Ice Beam.

So the TTar is predicting a Hippo to come in, sacrificing some attack and/or speed or even defenses, using an item with less use in general than, say, Band/LO, and all juts to beat Hippo. That opens it up to quite a few other pokes, so I say, well done hippo.

There are very few pokemon that aren't OHKO'd by SD Lucario. Bronzong isn't one of them. Gyarados, Salamence, Cresselia, Hippowdon and Gliscor make good counters to SD Lucario (depending on the 4th attack), but they're all utterly destroyed by Specs Lucario.

If you have a poke that you expect ot get CC'ed in the face, and you go to Cressy/Gyara etc... and get Aura Sphered, you know many things. The Luke is special, it doesn't have ES, and it will be locked into one attack, making prediction and countering it considerably easier.

I don't know what other comments have been made, as I haven't read the whole thread yet, I wanted to respond to these before I forgot about them.

 

[G-Beast]

and if it gets t-waved, then it's as good as dead.

who garchomp? twave wont affect him... hes ground type

 

[D3FAULT]

who garchomp? twave wont affect him... hes ground type

He/she was probably talking about Gyarados.

 

[notorious]

He/she was probably talking about Gyarados.

Actually i think she was talking about Salamence. Also im going to say garchomp has never been a problem for my team and I didnt even design it to have a garchomp counter, I just threw the team togethor and it has worked well.

 

[D3FAULT]

Actually i think she was talking about Salamence. Also im going to say garchomp has never been a problem for my team and I didnt even design it to have a garchomp counter, I just threw the team togethor and it has worked well.

Ah, k. And I said the same basic thing earlier: I've never had a real Chomp problem personally. =/ Although I do have at least 2 Pokemon on a team that can do real damage to Dragons normally. (AKA 2 Pokemon with Ice moves, and then of course I usually have my own Dragon on my team.)

 

[G-Beast]

Bronzong can take care of him pretty well. Coming in even on SD outrages. Reflect helps. Then gyro ball or hypnosis away. Intimidate shifting helps to. Believe it or not, Bulkyraptor did quite well coming into chompies EQ. Also, a fast Encore user like Lopunny, Alakazam, and Jumpluff can screw him over.

okay about bronzong... what if that garchomp decides to run fire fang? do you really think bronzong is going to be taking hits from SDed+orbed fire fangs?
how can you say encore screws him over? just switch out next turn.... or if you mispredict, you might get an outrage in the face! and last time i checked, none of them can survive a CBed outrage...
off topic but why did alakazam get bumped down to BL?

 

[Kagster123]

okay about bronzong... what if that garchomp decides to run fire fang? do you really think bronzong is going to be taking hits from SDed+orbed fire fangs?
how can you say encore screws him over? just switch out next turn.... or if you mispredict, you might get an outrage in the face! and last time i checked, none of them can survive a CBed outrage...
off topic but why did alakazam get bumped down to BL?

Uhhh.. i said bronzong can come into outrages, and he can. If he comes into Outrage Garchomp is stuck in outrage, or did you not know that? If you believe Garchomp is an SD variant, then you can predict the SD and switch to your encore user, and yes that does screw him over, forcing a switch and giving you a turn of set-up. And Alakazam has been BL for a while, maybe even in all of D/P, i dont remember.

 

[G-Beast]

ive been using outrage since G/S/C... i know full well what it does...
just saying that it is not something you want to come in to, especially since, in my experience, charizard and metagross are good pokemon to be teaming switch-ins with garchomp, by the time your bronzong is in and gets its reflect up, garchomp may very well be confused by then, allowing a switch out to charizard to introduce bronzong to specs overheat or something of the like... or bring metagross in if you think explosion is coming... and for the EQ bronzong could have, switch zard in... bronzong really stands no chance against a charizard that has overheat or even flamethrower... unless you have trick room going on.. thats a good time to put bronzong in, but still he wont want to stay into charizard, also if yuo dont have explosion, a bellyzard WILL set up on you since most of them carry substitute. sure this takes more then one pokemon, but it nullifies bronzong in the end and what it intended to do, unless he switches out, and keeps your garchomp alive, ready to destroy something else. of course... some try to be cocky and maybe get through their confusion in hopes of fire blast landing down.. but thats not a good idea generally.
also do not forget the chainchomp set. the swords dance might fool you

 

[Kagster123]

Bronzong can still get that 1 turn of reflect up which is still really handy. It's immune to Earthquake and resists its main stab, its one of the most popular switch-ins, i dont see how your trying to argue that its a bad switch-in just because Charizard can come in on it IF Garchomps outrage is even done. With this argument i can just assume in the same battle Garchomp will SD when it switches in to a poke it scares, i can switch into my Starmie and OHKO or force the switch. Its the same thing. Once Garchomp SD's the suprise of scarf or band is gone. Garchomp really only has 1 oppurtinity to do an SD sweep and it needs to count.

BTW, Garchomps Draco Meteor is weaker then an SD Outrage on zong, depending on the EV spread of course, but zong resists it and its not boosted 2 times like Outrage.

 

[G-Beast]

Garchomp also runs fire blast on chain chomp, fyi

 

[Darth Meanie]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

No, my last team worked well whether or not Garchomp was around, I never really had to fix a Chomp weak.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

No, Garchomp isn't a pokemon I find myself needing a counter for as badly as I need a counter too Heracross and TTar.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

I have multiple ways to deal with it. Toxic Spikes, Ice Beam, etc.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Sure. You rarely see Dragonite, for the same reason you rarely see blaizken.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

Probably not, I have a different style of play though, I personally don't feel as threatened by chomp.

 

[GB_Packers_Ftw]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how? No, honestly not. I mean certainly garchomp is not the only reason I carry Ice moves. Ice overall is a great type and it just happens to have great coverage on other big big threats.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building? No, I have never believed in countering pokemon when team building i simply form a strategy and build off of my own pokemon.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
Yeah, but its just because i happen to run 2 different pokemon that can hit him. I run Scarfed Heatran with hp ice and also a Shiftry with HP ice...just happens to be on my team, not specifically for Chomp, but perhaps for the dragon type as a whole.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
No, not garchomp alone. Simply the increased usage of dragons as a whole i think increase HP Ice usage. Ice is just a great type as i said before.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

I think Bliss has more of an impact than garchomp, just the need to have a pyschical threat always pops into my mind.

 

[Kagster123]

Garchomp also runs fire blast on chain chomp, fyi

And FYI after Draco Meteors -2 special attack drop Garchomp wont be doing much damage even with fireblast.

 

[IggyBot]

Hitit4three, you still don't get it. Obviously you don't know what you're talking about in your attempted argument, so this will be my final post.

1.) Being effective and being used are two different things. Just because CB Gyarados isn't used as much as Dragon Dance Gyarados does not mean it's not an effective set. Would you say that TyraniBoah isn't effective, because it's not used anymore? I haven't seen one Boah in probably 2 months now.

2.) You said Blissey counters Gengar. I don't fucking care how much Sub Punch Gengar is used, but it does beat Blissey. I personally use Hypnosis / Substitute / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast all the time. Just in case you don't know, Ghost + Fighting is unresisted. My point wasn't that Sub Punch Gengar is used all the time, my point was that Blissey doesn't counter Gengar 100% of the time.

3.) Tyranitar can 2HKO Hippowdon with 0 SpA EVs, all it needs is a Life Orb. Or it can run 76 SpA EVs and an Expert Belt to ensure the 2HKO. It's not cutting Tyranitar's effectivness at all, especially considering Tyranitar does so much more than just the "physical attacker" role. Oh, and Ice Beam also beats Gliscor and Garchomp, which also happen to be very good Tyranitar switch ins.

4.) Ok. So the next time, Lucario Dark Pulses to take out Gyarados/Cresselia, something physical Lucario won't do. Oh, you can predict and go to Blissey? Well I can to, and Aura Sphere 2HKO's. Specs Lucario doesn't carry Extremespeed, it carrys Vacuum Wave (a special, fighting type priority attack).

Feel free not to respond to this, so that we don't further derail the topic.

 

[Janenmori]

My personal solution to Garchomp is Crocune with Ice Beam instead of Surf. It works like a charm and stops a lot of Chomps cold, no pun intended.

 

[D3FAULT]

My personal solution to Garchomp is Crocune with Ice Beam instead of Surf. It works like a charm and stops a lot of Chomps cold, no pun intended.

Wow, why didn't I think of that? A friend of mine who battles me always uses a Cune, and my Chomp ends up switching out every time. 0_o I don't know how it would do against an Outraging Chomp though. Too lazy to run damage calcs. But my SDYacheChomp fails against it. :P

 

[Kietharr]

Guys, stop saying P2 is a 100% Gyarados counter. Modest cspecs Gyarados outspeeds and 2HKOs all standard sets with hydro pump. P2 is a 99.9% Gyarados counter at best.

 

[Bourbon]

And Modest Choice Specs Gyarados is a useless piece of crap that will never work... and then Porygon2 can come in later, on Vaporeon, heatran, jolteon or something, and Recover.

That's like saying Bronzong isn't a counter for Weavile because somewhere, out there, someone runs Modest Choice Specs Hidden Power Fire Weavile.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm pretty sure he was joking, there...

 

[D3FAULT]

I'm pretty sure he was joking, there...

Yeah, and he got the exact response that he was hoping for. xD

 

[muna]

I don't have the time now to answer all the questions (and I actually use Garchomp so my answers wouldn't really help), but I will say that the EV spreads of some Pokemon will change. Some Pokemon carry 273 special attack just to be able to OHKO a non Yache Garchomp. I am sure that these Pokemon will get rid of some SpA EVs and invest them into another stat if Garchomp were ever banned.

 

[Bourbon]

Yahoo! Garchomp is so much fun to use! I just got a 6-0 with him.

I switched into Celebi, as Grass Knot missed, then he tried to leech seed, and that missed. I used Swords Danced Fire Fang, and it leech seeded again. I Earthquaked and OHKOed Starmie as it switched in. Then he sent in Gliscor, and I outraged and killed that. he sent in Restalk Heatran, absorbed a couple of Outrages, and when my "rampage ended" I Earthquaked, but he switched to Celebi. A second Earthquake killed his Celebi. Then, I won the speed tie with his Garchomp and it was GG, nothing else could outspeed me, and I still had my Yache Berry anyways.

I can't wait until it is tested, however, his spot on my team will be hard to fill.

 

[YukiJadenSurvives]

Garchomp is not the biggest threat though.

 

[Bourbon]

Who would you say is? Name one pokemon that's as fast as garchomp that gets 100 and 120 power STAB moves that hit 99% of the game for neutral or better. And gets swords dance. And can survive a 4x 95 base power attack. Oh yeah, don't forget Sand Veil either.