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Garchomp (BW2 Revamp) [GP 1/2]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Husky, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. Husky

    Husky

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    QC approvals: 2/3 [ ginganinja || PK Gaming || Lavos Spawn ]
    GP approvals: 1/2 [ srindpt || --- ]


    [Overview]

    <p>Along with a change in the definition of Evasion Clause–now including Sand Veil from OU–Garchomp dropped off most of his Sandstorm synergy, leaving him back with only with his Rough Skin ability. However, don't think Sand Veil was the only reason for Garchomp's success; great Dragon / Ground dual-type coupled with viable base stats give Garchomp a lot of merits. Garchomp has almost perfect STAB coverage, with his STAB moves only resisted by the rarely seen Bronzong and Skarmory. Resisting Stealth Rock as well as working well under any weather condition are just a few more of his abilities.</p>

    <p>Although it faces competition from his Dragon brethren Dragonite, Salamence, Haxorus, Latios, and Hydreigon, Garchomp can stand his ground thanks to his unique abilities, including the ability to set up Stealth Rock and an immunity to Electric-type moves, blocking Thunder Wave and Volt Switch completely. Although he has just two weaknesses, Dragon- and Ice-type moves are seen on any team, giving him some problems with Choice Scarf Dragons unless he wields one himself, as well as Mamoswine—which his teammates should work around.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Fire Fang / Aqua Tail
    move 4: Dragon Claw / Dual Chop
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Rough Skin
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>What to do if you don't have the time to set up or you just don't want to? Slap a Choice Band on him and you are set to go. With an instant Attack boost, Garchomp's attacks will reach destructive levels. Outrage will at least 2HKO the entire OU metagame, bar Steel-types—which is, where Earthquake comes in. Although Earthquake is a risky pick for any Choice Pokemon, Garchomp makes good use of it, as it offers needed coverage along with gaining STAB. Fire Fang lets Garchomp break through Pokemon such as Scizor, Ferrothorn and Forretress, which laugh at Outrage and take just neutral damage from Earthquake; it is therefore the preferred move outside of rain.</p>

    <p>In rain, on the other hand, Aqua Tail gets a significant boost, allowing him to hit most Steel-types—including Skarmory and Bronzong—harder; it also 2HKOes Gliscor. In the last slot, a secondary Dragon-type move is recommended so as not to lock into Outrage to early. While Dragon Claw is the more secure pick, Dual Chop lets Garchomp get past Substitute Dragonite and SubCM setup sweepers.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Band Garchomp has a handy ability to deal with most weather inducers. Tyranitar is dispatched by Earthquake, even physically defensive Ninetales will be OHKOed by both Garchomp's STAB moves. While 252/0 Politoed can be OHKOed with Outrage, a physically defensive variant is only in 2HKO range, so is 252/0 Hippowdon. Physically defensive Hippowdon is the only weather inducer, that has a chance of not being 2HKOed.</p>

    <p>Before Garchomp can unleash Outrage's full potential, Steel-types and faster Dragons will need to first be removed. Skarmory especially is quite a nuisance, as it is barely 2HKOed by Fire Fang in neutral weather and by rain-boosted Aqua Tail. Both Magneton and Magnezone make good partners for Garchomp as a DragMag combo, in order to remove not just this specific threat, but also Ferrothorn, Forretress, and a Scizor Choice-locked into Bullet Punch. Any other potentially problematic Steel-types will have a hard day facing Dugtrio; examples include Heatran, Jirachi, as well as opposing Magnezone and Magneton. Another offensive option is Mamoswine, which has a high base Attack stat and great dual STAB moves, being able to deal with most Garchomp threats. Defensively, Heatran and Jirachi can put a full stop to most Dragon- and Ice-type moves aimed at Garchomp.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Fang
    item: Yache Berry / Haban Berry
    ability: Rough Skin
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Garchomp can utilize Swords Dance rather easily thanks to his good number of resists and immunities. Just bring him in on moves such as Volt Switch, Flamethrower or most unSTABed moves, set up Swords Dance and start sweeping. Dual STAB is pretty much all he needs, since with a +2 boost under his belt, everything in his way will be overrun by Outrage, including physically defensive Hippowdon and physically defensive Gyarados, even factoring in Intimidate. Still, Fire Fang is needed to deal with Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress—but note that Scizor is OHKOed by +2 Earthquake after Stealth Rock. Fire Fang should always be used over Fire Blast, as it does more damage after a boost.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Garchomp has enough power after a Swords Dance boost, so he can use an item that helps in taking hits better. Thankfully, he only has two weaknesses, which can both be reduced a bit by using a Yache Berry or Haban Berry respectively. The former allows Garchomp to take any unSTABed Ice-type move, and also always survive Life Orb Mamoswine's Ice Shard while the latter lets Garchomp survive an Outrage from Life Orb Salamence, Life Orb Dragonite, and opposing Choice Band Garchomp, as well as a Draco Meteor from Life Orb Latias and Choice Scarf Latios. Draco Meteor from Life Orb Latios and Hydreigon still always OHKOs Garchomp, though, as does Outrage from Kyurem-B 43.75% of the time. Dragon Claw can be used instead of Outrage to avoid being locked into it; however, Dragon Claw is weaker and will miss out on OHKOs on Deoxys-D, Gliscor, Celebi, and Hippowdon.</p>

    <p>Again, Garchomp fits well on DragMag teams, where he can get free switch-ins from Magneton's and Magnezone's Volt Switch. Generally, Steel-types work very well with Dragon-type Pokemon. Jirachi and Scizor can both use U-Turn to give Garchomp more safe switch-ins. Jirachi can even pass Wish to grant Garchomp multiple chances to attempt a sweep. Even though Garchomp can wreck almost anything, he still detests Scald or Will-O-Wisp burns from faster Pokemon, such as Choice Scarf Rotom-W and Starmie. Gastrodon works as a solid counter to these moves, and doesn't care much about burn. In case of an unexpected status ailment on Garchomp, look to cleric support; Vaporeon can cure status, pass Wish, and allow soft switch-ins by using Baton Pass.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute + Swords Dance
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Swords Dance
    move 3: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Leftovers / Salac Berry
    ability: Rough Skin
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Garchomp doesn't hide; Garchomp retreats tactically behind a Substitute. This allows him to set up more easily or attack right away if needed, depending on the situation. Either of two conditions are required for a successful late-game sweep: either remove all the opponent's Outrage sponges, or leave him with no more than one faster Pokemon. With only his STAB moves, Garchomp might lose some coverage, but he gets significantly more power in return. A neutral Earthquake is often enough to let him power through most Steel-types, including Scizor, Ferrothorn and Forretress, all of whom are easily 2HKOed at +2.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Both Leftovers and Salac Berry work well with Substitute. But since speed is a real big term in OU, there are a lot of Pokemon running a Choice Scarf or have access to priority. This includes Latios and Terrakion for the former and Scizor, Breloom, Dragonite, Mamoswine, and Lucario for the ladder, making them all a threat to Garchomp without an active Substitute, even when getting the speed boost by Salac Berry. This ultimately makes it an inferior option in general over Leftovers's constant recovery effect. In case you want to use Salac Berry though, make sure these threats got eliminated before activating. A Life Orb boost enables Garchomp to 2HKO Skarmory with +2 Outrage; however, be aware that residual damage will rack up quickly.</p>

    <p>Lacking any Fire-type move and potentially being unable to set up, Garchomp badly needs support to remove opposing Skarmory and Bronzong. Besides Magnezone and Magneton, there are a number of other viable teammates for this purpose, namely Thundurus-T, Rotom-W, Heatran, and even Infernape</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Fire Fang / Aqua Tail
    move 4: Dragon Claw
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Rough Skin
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Scarf Garchomp noticeably lacks the immediate wallbreaking power of his other variants, but is one of the fastest Pokemon in the game—aside from Choice Scarf Latios and Choice Scarf Terrakion, as well as Chlorophyll sweepers such as Venusaur— nd is hence an effective revenge kiler. Outrage is his main move once certain threats are removed. STAB Earthquake hitsmost Steel-types hard, while he can pick between either Fire Fang or Aqua Tail for coverage. The latter should only really be used on rain teams, however, where it hits Skarmory and Bronzong as hard as possible. With near-perfect coverage, Garchomp can run any move in the last slot. Dragon Claw is recommended for a consequence-free STAB move.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Typical partners that remove Steel-types are needed for an eventual Outrage sweep: Dugtrio in combination with Scizor or Jirachi can drag most of them out and remove them easily, while Magneton and Magnezone can take out Skarmory safely. Breloom, Scizor, and Mamoswine can threaten faster Choice Scarf users with their priority moves to prevent them from revenge killing Garchomp.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Stealth Rock
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast / Swords Dance
    item: Life Orb / Focus Sash
    ability: Rough Skin
    nature: Naive / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Garchomp is no one-dimensional hard-hitter; he can also securely set up Stealth Rock for the team, as he can handle most spinners between its dual STAB and Fire Blast. The latter OHKOes Forretress with Life Orb, 2HKOes specially defensive Skarmory, and decimates Ferrothorn and Scizor. Swords Dance also works in the last slot to give Garchomp a secondary role as a setup sweeper.</p>

    <p>Focus Sash can be used to make Garchomp a fantastic lead, as he is one of the fastest Stealth Rock users in the tier, ahead even of Terrakion and Aerodactyl. Thanks to Rough Skin, Garchomp is able to break Terrakion's Focus Sash, ensuring an easy OHKO with Earthquake. Rapid Spinners, such as bulky Starmie, Forretress, Tentacruel, and even Donphan are almost no problem for this set, being able to KO most of them easily, allowing it to keep up Stealth Rock on the field. This again reduces the actual need of a spinblocker on the same team.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Deoxys-D works nicely with Garchomp by setting up Spikes and increasing residual damage on the opponent's team. Other than this, Stealth Rock Garchomp works very independently in contrast to his other sets, as it follows its own strategy. This allows the team to be more flexible than usual.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Dragon Claw / Dragon Tail
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast / Aqua Tail / Protect
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Rough Skin
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Garchomp has great natural bulk and thus can work in a more support-orientated way. Stealth Rock is again Garchomp's main aim. In contrast to his other sets, this one forgoes Outrage completely, as it doesn't hit nearly as hard, but instead using Dragon Claw as it has the same great standalone neutral coverage, but Dragon Tail can be used to phaze through the opponent's team, racking up residual damage. The combination of Earthquake and Fire Blast destroys all Steel-types, but Aqua Tail can be used in rain to take out Gliscor and Skarmory. Alternatively, Protect lets Garchomp schout for super effective moves, and aids prediction around Choice users.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given Speed investment lets Garchomp outspeed neutral base 90s, such as Adamant Lucario, but also positive-natured Heatran and Breloom. The given spread maximizes Garchomp's bulk, and specifically allows him to survive +2 Life Orb Breloom's Mach Punch and Choice Band Terrakion's Close Combat. Even Jolly Life Orb Mamoswine's Ice Shard has just a 37.5% chance to OHKO from full health, while unboosted Hidden Power Ice from the likes of Jirachi, Heatran, Alakazam, and Jolteon also fail to OHKO. However, even this bulky Garchomp should avoid Outrage, Draco Meteor, and Ice Beam.</p>

    <p>This set works in almost any weather. In particular, sandstorm increases passive damage on the opponent's team; Dragon Tail and even Rocky Helmet should therefore be considered on such teams. In sun and in rain, Fire Blast and Aqua Tail get pseudo-STAB respectively, making them significantly.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Dragon Tail can replace Dragon Claw on any set where the latter is secondary STAB. Bulldoze receives STAB and allows Garchomp to slow down faster Pokemon or Choice Scarf users on the switch potentially letting him fire off another attack. Garchomp can also learn Stone Edge and Rock Slide, but these offer almost no additional coverage but against Volcarona and have subpar accuracy.</p>

    <p>A Classic ChainChomp set with Draco Meteor and Fire Blast might catch the opponent by surprise, usually expecting Garchomp to be physically offensive. It lacks general power in comparison to Outrage and Fire Fang due both to Garchomp's higher Attack stat and his ability to boost it but does a decent job on more physically defensive oriented Pokemon and doesn't mind that much about getting burned. Mixed variants should use a Hasty nature to keep Garchomp's good bulk against common priority moves. A passive damage stacker with Protect, Toxic and a Rocky Helmet can be used in sandstorm teams. RestTalk can surprise most opponents, with Garchomp's natural bulk and newfound ability to get rid of status, he can increase his staying power to some extent.</p>

    [Checks and Counters] *will be redone entirely*

    <p>Skarmory and Bronzong are the only Pokemon that ever happen to be seen in OU that resist both of Garchomp's STAB moves. More annoyingly, both are known to be effective physical walls, making a Fire-type move coverage almost mandatory. Choice Scarf Kyurem-B is faster than any set Garchomp has except when running a Choice Scarf by himself. Also, Kyurem-B's Outrage will definitely hurt a lot so prober Team support is needed to take care of him. Heatran, Jirachi and Scizor can take Outrage somewhat ok, allowing to hit back hard with their STAB moves.</p>

    <p>Defensive Gliscor is really annoying, being able to switch easily into Garchomp's Choice locked Earthquake, forcing him to switch. Mamoswine can cover this problem easily with his ridiculously powerful Ice-type moves but Rotom-W also works well to full stop most Glisor. In Rain, Garchomp can hit it really hard with Aqua Tail and Vaporeon doesn't even care at all, negating Toxic with her Hydration ability. Speaking of Mamoswine, he not just makes a good partner but is also one of Garchomp's worst problems. With just an Adamant nature, Ice Shard can almost OHKO from full health, which again makes Rotom-W one of Garchomp's best partners. Garchomp generally has only two weaknesses which is low in quantity but immense in quality: Garchomp will die to almost any Outrage, Draco Meteor, Ice Beam, Blizzard and even several Hidden Power Ice. Steel-types luckyliy can take hits from both of this types, so one of them should always stand at Garchomp's side.</p>
  2. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    I think Choice sets are usually split into two separate sets; Normally they don't play similarly enough to justify having them on the same set - ex. Choice Scarf Garchomp is primarily a revenge killer, while Choice Band Garchomp is primarily a "hit shit hard" Pokemon. Also, I think Fire Blast should be put over Fire Fang on both Choice sets because it 2HKOes Physically defensive Skarmory, which Fire Fang doesn't do, although Choice Band can justify using Fire Fang since it does more damage to Ferrothorn than Fire Blast (80 base SpA lol).

    On the Swords Dance set, maybe AC mention dropping the Defense IVs to 10 (11 if the leftover 4 EVs are placed into Special Defense) to prevent Genesect from getting the Special Attack boost? It's irrelevant if you're using Life Orb, but with Yache Berry, it prevents Genesect from OHKOing you with Ice Beam through Yache. I'm not a QC member but I think Aqua Tail might deserve a slash with Fire Fang if Garchomp is being used on a Rain team.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Definitely split the choice sets, they play very differently.

    Also add SubSD with Salac, monster late game sweeper. Weaker than SubSD Salac Terrakion, but way easier to set-up.

    Finally add a strong mention on the SD set, that if you go with Yache Berry, going with 11 Def ivs to give ScarfSect an Atk boost is a must, preventing your Yache Berry from being uselss. ScarfSect is one of the main reasons to use Yache Chomp anyway...

    EDIT: I am not sure on this one but maybe 3 attacks + SR Garchomp deserves a set. Something like this:

    Garchomp @ Life Orb / Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 Atk
    Naive / Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Outrage / Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast / Fire Fang

    EDIT2: Forgot to slash D-Claw, which is a fine choice as well. Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet fucks most spinners such as Bulky Starmie, Forretress, Tentacruel and Donphan (you beat Forretress and Tenta anyway but whatever), and harasses over jealous U-turn spammers and priority users.
  4. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Hm. Nice-looking set, alexwolf. I actually tried out a similar set weeks ago, and it did great when I needed a fast killer/cleaner, and when I needed a dose of Stealth Rocks. I alternated between Expert Belt (to feign a Choice set, which most Steel-types and Earthquake-immune targets will switch into happily) and Life Orb (you're not hitting much super effectively with Outrage). Not sure if it's worth a full set though.

    Also, yeah, it's worth mentioning Salac Berry in the Swords Dance set, and splitting the two choice sets (with concise writing in mind) for now.
  5. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    On your SD set, I would include giving Garchomp 10 IV's in Defense. This ensures that Genesect gets an Attack boost upon switching in, meaning that Garchomp can survive an Ice Beam if he's holding a Yache Berry (+0 Ice Beam from Genesect does 63-74% after Yache Berry, allowing Garchomp to survive the hit and KO Genesect with a Fire Fang)
  6. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    cool, cool, cool


    • Definitely split the 2 choice sets. I'm not sure on the order, but for now I think we should stick with Scarf > Band.


      [*]Leftovers might be a more reliable item choice over Salac on the Substitute set. Salac berry has always been a bit too inconsistent for me... tbh i'd rather see it as an AC option, or at the very least listed after Leftovers.
    • I'd mention CB Haxorus (and Kyurem-B if it gets unbanned) as a partner to the Scarf set. CB Haxorus wears down all of the Pokemon that check Choice Scarf Garchomp (barring Skarmory) which allows Garchomp to basically clean up lategame unhindered.
    • Definitely digging alexwolf's Garchomp set. I'll test it to see if I can improve it any way.
    • What do the 92 speed evs accomplish on the support set?
  7. Nachos

    Nachos
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    This is BW2 - you are not sweeping with 102 speed. The Choice Band set should be the top set as Garchomp is going to be switching in, using a STAB move backed by a lot of attack, and then is switching out again. Now, 10 Defense IVs is a terrible idea. You beat Genesect...and now you're more weak to many physical attackers who can now possibly OHKO like +2 Breloom, CB Terrakion and CB Stoutland. Not to mention random Earthquakes and the like.

    The Choice Scarf set is terrible in OU and does not deserve a spot on this analysis, as well as everything else apart from CB and SD. SR Suicide lead and Rocky Helmet go into other options.
  8. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs

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    Could you please explain the EVs behind the bulky support set? I can see that the Spd EVs are there to beat positive base 70s, but I'm a bit confused as to whether or not those particular Atk and HP EVs are there to help you kill something in particular or take a certain attack better, respectively.
  9. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Okay, a few things:

    1) The support set just seems bad too me. You are using none of Garchomp's strengths, although I guess you could say you're using his bulk. However, while Garchomp's bulk is great for a sweeper, it's not enough for a full on support/tank. That Garchomp is slower than everything it should be beating without any problem at all, while not really contributing much in terms of defensive potential. Don't even get me started on this, either:

    2) No to 10 or 11 Def IVs. While I don't like defensive Garchomp, its defensive are what really makes it a great sweeper. Like Nachos said, 102 base Speed is kind of iffy in this metagame for sweeping, but I reckon it's still a great sweeper simply because of its bulk when uninvested. Gimping your own defense to give Genesect an Attack boost is not worth it when you're now getting hit much harder by stuff like Bullet Punch, Mach Punch and all that kind of thing. Garchomp is getting more of his switch-ins and setup opportunities on physical attacks, not special ones. If you REALLY want to give Genesect an Attack boost, I'd much rather run 172 Atk / 84 SpD / 252 Spe.

    3) Consider Focus Sash and Swords Dance on the offensive SR set as well. I've seen Taylor use it, and I've also tried it, and it's pretty much like Terrakion except it's a Dragon-type. The good thing is though, that he beats offensive SR Terrakion one-on-one because of Rough Skin breaking Terrakion's Sash.
  10. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast (im)patiently waiting for SPL
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    I honestly think that the Choice Scarf set deserves a spot in the analysis, if not at least an OO mention. It's supposed to be a revenge killer. It's good at revenge killing - arguably as good as Terrakion, better than Landorus-I and far better than Thundurus-T. If the only +100 revenge killers we can have an analysis for are Thundurus-T, Landorus-I and Terrakion, either we're grossly underestimating Garchomp or this metagame is even worse than everyone says it is.
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Arctiblast relax, ScarfChomp is getting an analysis, at least from what i heard from the QC team. Just because a person in the QC team doesn't like it doesn't mean it won't get a set.
  12. Husky

    Husky

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    Ok, let's start this from the very beginning:

    1.) splitted Choice Sets into both Choice Band and Choice Scarf set.
    » I put Scarf > Band for now as it seemed more reliable to me even though it's hitting significantly less hard than the Swords Dance and Choice Band set. Base 102 Speed is enough to outrun most other Choice Scarfers and it's meant to revenge kill anyways, so no absurd raw power is needed here. Terrakion and Latios are the only common faster Scarfers lately but they shouldn't be all too much of a problem with proper team support.
    ... uhm... guess I should put that in AC as well..

    2.) set IVs on SD set down to 10 and will keep it there.
    » I checked both variations and it doesn't seem to be too much of a loss for Garchomp to drop its Defense. I did some damage calcs with all physical attackers in the current Top20 and there's no Xhko that will change at all. Breloom's Bullet Seed still needs 4 strikes to actually KO, but even with 31 Def IV, this wouldn't change. It's also way too important for Garchomp to survive Genesect's Ice Beam, as this certianly helps to pull of a late game sweep.
    .. If it makes you happy, I can set the IVs back to 31, but giving Garchomp a Hasty nature in return, which will drop its Def below its SpD, which means Fire Blast can be put in AC.

    3.) implemented alexwolf's Stealth Rock + 3 attacks set.
    » It looks really nice and I think it will do a nice job over all. Maybe it will replace the Support set at all, as they have similar movesets but alex's version is way more aggressive in the end (which again is one of Garchomp's main attitudes). However, I haven't really tested it the day ago, and it's going to be a really, really annoying week for me =_=' Maybe alex might help me out with this one a bit, telling some more benefits and downsides apart from standard Chomptalk?
    *this by the way means, I'm going to scratch the Support set completely, so I ignore any suggestions / questions about it to make this thing shorter.*

    4.) changing items on SD set to Yache Berry / Leftovers.
    » Keeping Salac Berry and Life Orb to AC, as they both have good use on Garchomp. It seems I can be manipulated too easy when it comes to switching items on analyses. I promise this won't happen again. So, for now I think this is the best way for this set to work.

    5.) Will add PK's suggestion of taking CB Haxorus as a partner for Scarf Garchomp in AC. Dual Dragons always work, I'm using CB Haxorus and CS MoxieMence along each other and they work too.

    6.) @shrang:
    » willing to consider Focus Sash and Swords Dance for the Offensive Stealth Rock set, you're right that it actually beats Terrakion 1v1 in a lead battle, but i hardly see this will ever take place at all.. And since Rough Skin is Garchomp's only legit ability outside there for now, I see nothing that this certain set will have in advantage over the others, though. Any set will survive an unboosted Close Combat easily, letting Terrakion take Rough Skin damage thus breaking its Focus Sash.



    ..Ok, I guess that's all for now. I will implement said changes after submitting this post so don't overrun me within a few seconds please ^.^
    If I missed out something, let me now and I'll come back on it.
  13. Doughboy

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    I've got lots of ideas for Garchomp, but for now I would like to see a mention of a bulkier spread on SubSD Garchomp that uses 101 Hp substitutes. Iirc, it is a spread of 188 HP / 60 Atk / 252 Spe. I find the bulk very helpful for setting up against weaker attackers and it makes it very helpful against Night shade Deoxys-d and seismic toss Chansey.
  14. Nachos

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    Have you used Garchomp at all? ScarfChomp was not used at all on the Suspect ladder, and isn't used by any good player in OU now. It's weak and it's set up upon too easily. Every Choice Scarf used these days either has access to U-turn or a stupidly high powered move (Keldeo's Hydro Pump in the rain). The whole Scarf Dragon thing is done better by Salamence, who can sweep teams by itself with Moxie. Scarf Landorus isn't as popular as it once was with Sheer Force becoming its new best set, so they're basically sitting at the same speed. Even Latios does it better in this scarf and speed obsessed metagame.

    Now let's look at the much superior Choice Band set. The only things resisting your STAB moves are Skarmory, Bronzong and Heatran. Skarm is uncommon these days, Bronzong is extinct and Heatran has dropped in popularity due to rain and Gene+Dug being more common. With those out of the way, you're free to come in on something such as Tyranitar or Terrakion locked on SE and just click a button to OHKO/2HKO most of the tier. You can even come in after Sheer Force Landorus has killed something and just smash it with Outrage. Unlike the other CB Dragons, Garchomp can come in repeatedly due to its defenses and SR resist. It's better than Haxorus as a Bander, and putting it as the 3rd set makes me wonder if you've tested any of these sets..

    Are you saying that beating Genesect is more important than taking every physical attack in the game significantly better? You're now suddenly more prone to being revenge killed by Dragonite, Breloom (yes this is very big as Garchomp is one of the few offensive sweepers that actually take a +2 Mach Punch), Scizor, Azumarill. Please take into account that hazards are very common and you're not likely going to be using a 100% health Garchomp. And not only this, but by making it sound like Genesect is the #1 revenge killer/problem for this set, you're misinterpreting what actually does kill Garchomp, and I'll tell you what they are. Lati@s, Keldeo/Starmie in rain, Tornadus-T, Terrakion and MoxieMence. I think Ferrothorn can now 2HKO with Gyro Ball/Power Whip instead of 3HKO, but don't quote me on that one. If you're going to be doing something like this, at least use shrang's suggestion, and put it in AC. Finally, Aqua Tail should definitely get an AC mention, so should DoughBoy's suggestion.

    Quoting these together because they're similar. I've used a Focus Sash SD lead Garchomp with SR and it has been successful. So have other good players. Your moves are SR / Outrage / Earthquake / SD or Fire Blast. Fire Fang is weak unboosted, you probably don't even OHKO anything 4x weak to it, so get rid of it. Rocky Helmet is AC, it's a waste of an item. With Sash, you're guaranteed that SR. With LO, you get that extra bit of power if you don't have time to boost. With Rocky Helmet.....you get that extra bit of damage on Starmie and Tentacruel, both of which can heal it up easily.

    Really? Saying that Garchomp is as good of a revenge killer as Terrakion is far-fetched, and it's definitely not better than Thundurus-T. If you played in this recent suspect round, you'd see that for a lot of people, their only electric resist was Latios or Ferrothorn, both of which are easy to wear down. Once they're on low enough health, Thundurus-T can literally pick off a rain team frighteningly easily.
  15. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    I sat down with Nachos, and we went over each Garchomp set in detail.

    Swords Dance

    The Swords Dance needs to be completely redone from the ground up. 10 Def IVs is terrible, terrible, terrible on Garchomp. Getting the jump on Genesect is not worth sacrificing Garchomp's awesome physical bulk. I apologize for misleading everyone into thinking that lowering Garchomp's defenses was EVER a good idea.

    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Fang
    item: Yache Berry / Haban Berry
    ability: Rough Skin
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    You'll notice that we added Haban Berry to the Swords Dance set. While it might not be of any use against LO/Specs Latios, Haban berry let's you somewhat bypass Latias and opposing Garchomp, Salamence (unboosted) and it'll definitely be relevant if Kyurem-B gets unbanned, since Garchomp can take Scarf outrages with a haban berry. We decided to split Swords Dance 2 different sets. We didn't like the idea of shoving multiple playstyles into a single set, so we decided to create a new set, SubSD.

    name: Substitute + Swords Dance
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Swords Dance
    move 3: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Leftovers / Salac Berry

    They're similar sets, but this variant focuses on setting up Substitutes on switches and setting up on Pokemon that can't touch it (or just damaging fast checks like Latios) or abusing salac berry to sweep.

    Stealth Rock + 3 Atks(set name: Stealth Rock)

    Swords Dance should get an AC mention because after Garchomp lays down SR, it can also pull double duty and act as a Swords Dance user. It comes in handy when your opponent has something like Hippowdown or physically defensive Rotom-W / Jellicent. Remember though, it's too situational to get any mention outside of AC. Fire Fang should have priority over Fire Blast. Both moves are situational, but Fire Blast comes with lowered defenses, which might screw you over if your opponent isn't using Skarmory.

    Support

    We didn't have enough time to go over the Support set, but it needs to be tested again. Nachos didn't feel think there would be a point to using it over the SR + 3 atks set that Alexwolf posted.

    Choice Band

    Remove this. Fire Fang should be used on all teams outside of rain.

    Set order:/B]

    Choice Band > Swords Dance > Substitute + Swords Dance > Choice Scarf > Stealth Rock > Support`

    The set order is subject to change, but for the most part it should look like this. Choice Band gets top spot because it's the most effective set Garchomp can run in BW OU2. Skarmory usage is at an all time low, and teams are relying on grounded steel-types to check Dragons. CB Garchomp unquestionable thrives in this metagame. The Swords Dance sets are next, and they're more or less on par with each other (they might switch positions). Scarf has definitely taken a hit in viability, but it's still decent in the current metagame. Being able to outspeed common scarfers like Salamence, Genesect and Thundurus-T is definitely a plus, and Garchomp can still sweep lategame if Steels are gone (that didn't stop being a thing). Stealth Rock & Support get the last 2 set slots, although Stealth Rock is liable to move up if it ends up being better than we initially anticipated.
  16. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Where's the defensive Landorus-T-ish support set? I don't have the exact set on me right now, but I ran Impish Nature, max HP, some Defense, enough Speed to hit a value of 281 (outspeeds Adamant Lucario, Jolly Heatran, etc.) with a Rocky Helmet. Moveset was Stealth Rock, Dragon Claw, Earthquake, filler slot that you can do a lot with. My filler move of preference was Aqua Tail, since I was running it on a Rain team and Aqua Tail happens to wreck Gliscor, who is otherwise a pretty solid counter to Chomp. Toxic is another cool option, it puts bulky Waters such as Politoed, Jellicent, Slowbro, etc. on a timer so you can stall them out with SDef Jirachi, a good partner to this set.
  17. TonsofPuppies

    TonsofPuppies

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    My apologies if this is a stupid question, as I'm new here and this is my first post. Why is there no mention of Stone Edge on any of the proposed sets? It seemed to be pretty much mandatory on all of the DPP/BW sets in the past.
  18. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    because all the old analyses were either a) for ubers, where fire fang was comparatively less useful (cannot beat lugia without stone edge), or b) choiced sets, where there's room to run stone edge. in OU, when you can only run one of rock or fire coverage, garchomp benefits much more from the fire coverage, which, with a boost, can break through most defensive steels. the things that are hit hard by stone edge and not by fire fang are generally hit hard enough by garchomp's dragon stab as it is.
  19. TonsofPuppies

    TonsofPuppies

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    Ah, Gotcha. With the Sand Veil ban in OU, will there also be a revamp of Garchomp in Ubers?
  20. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    possibly but that is a question for ubers C&C, not OU
  21. Husky

    Husky

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    finally done with all changes.
    ..seriously, the Support set won't ever find a use in any team with the more offensive Stealth Rock set being like a bazillion times better, don't even bother trying to test it.

    I'm currently working on a set, that tries to get more use of Rough Skin for defensive teams (stacking up passive damage and such) but i'm not exactly sure if this would deserve a set..
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Well, this is flat-out wrong, as I've tested both extensively on the OU ladder under inconspicuous alt names such as "lavos da best" and I've concluded that the defensive support set is a far cry above the offensive SR set. Offensive SR is 100% outclassed by Terrakion in every single way as a lead rocks user, whereas defensive support rivals Landorus-T's classic set in its usefulness. In Rain, support Chomp is a god. It can set up SR with ease, and stuff that normally likes to switch into Chomp (i.e. Gliscor) can say hello to Rain-boosted Aqua Tail. It's a good set with some surprise value, and a set worth adding to this analysis. Look at it from a net cost vs. net benefit standpoint: if you add it, it takes you like 10 minutes and we've got another good set on-site. If you don't add it, we miss out on this good set and you save 10 minutes. The choice is pretty clear to me, but I guess that depends on where your interests lie...

    edit: hey look QC approved my set! (pk gaming, ballabrown24, me, etc.)

    [​IMG]
    Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Aqua Tail / Protect

    Aqua Tail for Rain teams (or even non Rain if you prefer), Protect if you don't like Aqua Tail because it's wonderful at scouting out Genesect and other commonly choice-locked Pokemon, if you can catch the opposing Trainer off guard with it then they're forced to make a play they would rather not make in either U-Turning for a ton of damage with Rough Skin + Helmet, or using Ice Beam into the switch and giving you a free setup opportunity.
  23. Husky

    Husky

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    There was a good reason I brought up a Support set at the very beginning, since it was the way I played it and it was certainly bulky enough to take anything that wasn't named Outrage, Draco Meteor or Ice Beam on certain Pokemon. Even though these moves are very common these days, there were enough opportunites to set up Stealth Rock and go ahead with attacking.

    The main reason I scratched it for now was what shrang posted pretty early in this thread:

    ...for me, this sounds like: QC rejects, delete it; and as personal note: Why on earth do I even consider putting Protect on Chomp, even though I explained its great use of it, making it a fantastic scout for all U-Turn user and Choice locked Pokemon..

    Now reading your set that isn't all too different from what I've written got approved (and which also has Protect on it), I again feel sort of ... I don't even know a word that might fit here.. What am I doing wrong that QC always says "Set X is bad, remove it." but shortly later, someone else pops up with a slight deviation and it's suddenly perfect for QC, like it happened with offensive Cobalion already? Sorry, I don't want to start any discussion here, I just want to tell what's going on inside of me.

    I actually already made an update with my version of a Support set, which actually can take pretty much any hit yours can as well, except for Metagross's Ice Punch, but I honestly don't even see Metagross lately at all. Also, with a more offensive spread, Garchomp doesn't lose its amazing offensive capabilites.
    I'd kindly ask you to talk about it before this got rejected (again?) by a single member for whatever reason.
  24. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Well personally, I'm not a fan of the defensive set, but I'm not overly against it either. I'm okay with it staying, provided that we don't slash Protect on it. I see no merit slashing that move on, and don't give me "predict around Genesect" because that is bullshit and you know it. You have a lot more useful options in that slot: Dragon Tail and Fire Blast are definitely more useful than Protect, since they can actually do more things.
  25. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast (im)patiently waiting for SPL
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    As much as I love spamming Protect, I have to admit shrang's right. Garchomp has so many more good moves at its disposal - why scout around Genesect when you can roast it on the switch with Fire Blast? Heck, you could even run Sandstorm to fuck with weather teams. Dual Chop hits Dragonite on the switch too.

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