Gen V STABmons

[Piccolo289]

Gyarados+Brave bird+ Crabhammer = Yay

 

[SpartanMalice]

@effyouzion, I didn't say Metagross should be > Scizor, just that it deserves more usage as it's one of the best Shift Gear abusers around, close to Scizor's usage at least i.e the top 10, as I said the only real problem Scizor has is that can't outsped Scarf Keldeo at +2 whereas Metagross can and kill it with Zen Headbutt. So basically Metagross is better if you want more speed and Scizor if you want more power, plus it's still the best user of Bullet Punch so it's justified that it should be higher than gross. My point was that gross isn't completely outclassed.

Also, as for Whimsicott, even with 116 speed, most of them run bulk and no speed EVs, which means they'll always be outsped by a Max Speed thundurus, which is what it uses as it's an offensive mon, and hence can at least Paralyze them before being sent to sleep.

 

[Adonzo]

A boosted Bibarel with aqua jet in the rain should ohko Sableye before it can even use a prankster move.

In the rain, yes, but I honestly did not encounter many Bibarels on rain teams, and also ran Abomasnow, so rain was rarely active. Outside of rain, most people overestimated how hard Bibarel hits even at +4, leading to Sableye tanking Aqua Jet and ko'ing in return with Foul Play. Caused quite a few rage quits.

Bibarel could use Waterfall instead, outspeeding Foul Play and easily KO'ing, but then it runs the risk of Prankster Dark Void.

 

[SpartanMalice]

Probably a safer way to run bibarel is get Jellicent out of the way and use both Waterfall and Aqua Jet with Espeed and whatever coverage it wants to use.

 

[Mr Omgness]

fyi, usage stats are crap, for gods sake even 1850 stats still have latias under top 10, we all have to admit latias at least deserves a fair shot a being higher or equal with latios's usage. There are more notpicks I could go on about, but the STABmons meta hasn't really "evolved", there haven't been new things added really, nothing has been banned since then really, it's more of a thing about TRENDS and LADDER trends changing, for instance, Sawsbuck is still amazing these days, but everybody forgot about it by the time there was a way to test the theorymon about it on main server (OMotm and perma ladders).

ALso, Reuniclus is incredibly amazing in OU still, it's just it struggles with the high powered moves these days, aside from that, it has 0 problem picking away at the fast paced metagame with trick room and it's excellent overall features.

tl;dr: uberloom and RANKEROUSU LOL are still awesome in their perspective metas, also fyi sawsbuck doesn't rely on sun, chloro buck on the "uberloom" set was a new discovery made during the joims lab playabillity era, it was still almost considered uber without the invention of the chlorophyl slash on the set

And fyi I never said anything about Sawsbuck nor Reuniclus being crap. I just gave 3 possible reasons why Sawsbuck isnt in the top10. Go find someone else to have your endless discussions with.


About the GG Metagross vs Scizor discussion: I'm more a fan of GG Metagross as well, as it has less counters/checks in my eyes. Technician Gear Grind may hit hard yes but Metagross can power through Scizor's counters. Like Spartan said, Scizor fails to outspeed Scarf Keldeo after 1 boost, which Metagross doesnt and OHKOes with Zen Headbutt. Gyarados straight out walls Scizor as well, while Metagross doesn't care about Intimidate and can fire off it's STAB while Scizor will have to rely on it's coverage move at best. All Steels normally wall Scizor as well, or it has to rely on Superpower for coverage which has a nasty side effect as we know, Metagross handles them with Earthquake (bar Bronzong & Skarmory, the latter being a hard check to both anyway).

The discussion life orb/leftovers is a bit off I think because lum berry is the way to go imo for both Scizor and Metagross, so you don't have to worry about an intact Sableye/Whimsicott/Thundurus on your opponent's side.

I still prefer Scizor's CB set who can fire off a powered Gear Grind right off the bat, revenge kill with Bullet Punch or give momentum with U-Turn. Scizor's capability of running two different sets, where Metagross can only play the GG set (altho an offensive TR set could be a possibility), is what makes it shine over Metagross though.

Speaking about Gyarados, I'm kinda surprised it didnt make top10. Intimidate can disrupt ESpeeders, Shell Smashers & Gear Grinders; Roost gives it longevity and it's DD set got a lot scarier with Flying Gem Acrobatics, not to mention it has Sleep Talk.

 

[effyouzion]

@effyouzion, I didn't say Metagross should be > Scizor, just that it deserves more usage as it's one of the best Shift Gear abusers around, close to Scizor's usage at least i.e the top 10, as I said the only real problem Scizor has is that can't outsped Scarf Keldeo at +2 whereas Metagross can and kill it with Zen Headbutt. So basically Metagross is better if you want more speed and Scizor if you want more power, plus it's still the best user of Bullet Punch so it's justified that it should be higher than gross. My point was that gross isn't completely outclassed.

Also, as for Whimsicott, even with 116 speed, most of them run bulk and no speed EVs, which means they'll always be outsped by a Max Speed thundurus, which is what it uses as it's an offensive mon, and hence can at least Paralyze them before being sent to sleep.

Yeah, most Whimsicotts don't have speed, which is why I like him. I run sub on Thundurus (no twave) so I can avoid all that nasty shit.

 

[SpartanMalice]

Buck is also generally more easy to killer with newer threats like Thundy running around to screw around with both of its sets with either T-Wave, Sub, Taunt or Hurricane, pretty much anything really. There was plenty of discussion early about buck but in the early stages of the meta when we were playing it on Joim's we didn't see much bucks running around. Made my teambuilding a bit easier.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Buck is also generally more easy to killer with newer threats like Thundy running around to screw around with both of its sets with either T-Wave, Sub, Taunt or Hurricane, pretty much anything really. There was plenty of discussion early about buck but in the early stages of the meta when we were playing it on Joim's we didn't see much bucks running around. Made my teambuilding a bit easier.

you do know that espeed > prankster in terms of priority right?

 

[SpartanMalice]

That is if they go for espeed first turn and with just 100 attack, I doubt it would kill.

Sawsbuck's biggest problem IMO is the lack of coverage its regular meta set runs. Because it uses two slots for Spore and Drum, it always has just two attacking moves which can be walled by certain mons, especially if you don't have Chlorophyll (As you were talking about even Sap Sipper being potentially uber). Extremespeed/Horn leech is walled by 39 pokemon (I rounded it to 22 fully evolved/viable in OU mons), Extremespeed/Nature Power fares better, being walled by 10. Extremespeed/Hi Jump Kick is walled by the entire set of Ghost mons. Espeed/Megahorn (I recently learned it has Megahorn) is walled by 58. Take out espeed and use Grass stab with coverage, and you will be walled by even more AND outsped without chlorophyll and you are vulnerable to prankster. You could argue even resisted hits will do a lot to some mons, but that is if you do outspeed them with Sap Sipper, as mons like Gengar wont fear Espeed and can hit buck before it uses Horn Leech on it.

However if buck gets Spore/Dvoid support from someone, preferably a Prankster, it can come in and set up and the Chloro set is a much bigger threat with three attacking moves.

 

[effyouzion]

I mentioned this a few pages ago, but if you're not using chlorophyll with Ninetales support then Tauros > Sawsbuck. Tauros has the same attack, higher speed, and while he doesn't have dual stab, he has intimidate and better defense to allow you to get the belly drum off more easily. A set with BD + Espeed + Earthquake + Zen Headbutt hits most things hard and can speed tie with Gengar. The only major thing you lose is the fighting move for coverage on Ferro.

 

[SpartanMalice]

You also lose Spore, and Spore is what made Sawsbuck the threat it is.

 

[Mulan15262]

Are move illegalities that involve one STAB move and one non-stab move (such as Volt Tackle/ExtremeSpeed Pikachu or Dragon Dance/Pursuit Tyranitar) allowed? What about illegalities that don't involve a STAB move (such as Stomp/Focus Energy Tyranitar)?

 

[Pikachuun]

Are move illegalities that involve one STAB move and one non-stab move (such as Volt Tackle/ExtremeSpeed Pikachu or Dragon Dance/Pursuit Tyranitar) allowed? What about illegalities that don't involve a STAB move (such as Stomp/Focus Energy Tyranitar)?

1st question: Yes. Pika gets Volt Tackle by level-up (or whatever else) now, so you can just teach it Volt Tackle through normal means. Bolt Strike is far better though :P
2nd question: No.

 

[EV]

I just saw a Conversion+Entrainment Delcatty on the ladder. If you know how that works, do you think it's too gimmicky or a viable strategy?

EDIT: get the move right

 

[TheCuylerClan]

It sounds gimmicky to me but if it works sounds good

 

[EV]

It sounds gimmicky to me but if it works sounds good

First post, woot! Welcome!

So anyway, STABmoney makers aka you guys, this is the point where I make a drastic change in this metagame. We've talked about it for a while now and I want to know if the metagame is still unbalanced. Is it too offensive to where other strategies just can't compete? Is Normal spam too powerful? Should certain boosting moves go?

I'm proposing the following changes that we as a group can vote on:
1) Ban setup moves that aren't learned normally (Tail Glow Yanmega, Shift Gear Scizor, Dragon Dance Kyurem-B would be gone for example)
2) Ban only Normal-type setup moves that aren't learned normally (Shell Smash Espeon, Belly Drum Kangaskhan, Swords Dance Staraptor get the boot)
3) Ban ExtremeSpeed on Pokémon that don't learn it normally (Ursaring, Bibarel, etc would drastically fall in usage)
4) Ban priority sleep (adios Prankster Spore and Dark Void)
5) Keep it the same until Gen 6 comes out and reevaluate
6) Normal fix TBD (See Arcticblast's post and Mr Omgness's post for an example)

Vote like this:
I say we impose change #2 because blah.

or:
I say we impose changes #1 and #4 because yadda yadda.

Arcticblast edit: POST 666 HAIL SATAN
Eevee edit: IKR I was thinking the same thing

 

[Seraph's Fire]

Change #3 because I think that set up moves aren't what's overpowered; it's the powerful priority that comes with them.

 

[4TEHGUY]

I think that while priority makes set up moves broken, set up moves are what make priority moves broken. Only one of them needs to go, to be honest, and I doubt priority would be diffucult to deal with without any way (via STABmons, at least) to boost it. Voting for #2.

 

[urdrakonis]

I like #1, #3 and #4. I stopped playing on the ladder because it was filled with lame teams full of boosting sweepers.

I think all boosting moves that aren't learned naturally need to go. If SS / BD is banned, there will be more Shift Gear / Quiver Dance nonsense. It's frustrating dealing with boosting sweeper after boosting sweeper that can just muscle through your walls with shit like Tail Glow and high BP moves. Sableye was a great check to a lot of these threats but powerful priority from stuff like Azumarill could OHKO with hazards.

#3 and #4 hurt the popular anti-meta mons (Ursaring and Sableye), who would be free to ravage the tier now that you don't need to preserve them to check boosting sweepers.

 

[Seraph's Fire]

I don't think the setup moves should be banned because they're not difficult to counter without espeed. There's basically nothing most set up sweepers can do to stop heart swap alakazam, for example. It can take a hit with sash and steal their boosts, and without priority they can't kill it immediately thereafter. And that's just one example. Set up sweepers are still in general vulnerable to being crippled with status or walled by things like ferrothorn and forretress. (both of which can take on most shell smashers and shift gear-ers with gyro ball easily, btw) Once espeed is out of the picture, revenge killing is much easier, unless they're behind a sub. But if you've managed to keep a sub up and get a couple boosts, I think you deserve to sweep.

 

[Adonzo]

#5 Keep it the same. OMs already have niche userbases, no point in catering to people to think each and every meta should be balanced.

Mr Omgness just (almost) solved the meta. New post further down.

 

[Mr Omgness]

I'd like to suggest a different change (if I may):

I actually have been thinking to limit the amount of extra STABmoves Normal mons can choose. With a defensive movepool consisting of rapid spin, healing moves, roar/whilwind and heal bell and an offensive movepool consisting of shell smash, extremespeed, naturepower, judgement, fake out and belly drum Normal mons really got to shine here.

My proposition is that Normal mons can only choose one extra normal stab. That way we dont face combinations suchs as Shell Smash/Belly Drum + ESpeed unless the pokémon in question has one of the moves in it's original movepool in which case it becomes more predictable.

For clarification: A Normal mon with a secondary type is still allowed to take extra STABmoves from it's other typing as many as he wants, he just cannot get more than 1 through his normal-typing. So Sawsbuck could without problem run Belly Drum / Spore / Power Whip / Return. This also counts for mons that get access to all normal moves through prior evolution (Eeveelutions and Azumarill).

This way your priority mons or your defensive mons can stop the vast boat of normal sweepers more easily or reliably because in 95% of the cases they won't have the setup-move + ESpeed.

 

[Monte Cristo]

#4 and #3 and #2 mianly because I believe normal abuse and pranksleep are really keeping this OM from being well, balanced and not a pain to play, espeed and normal set up moves are way too good to pass up, and they basically can use the same strat that OU rain HO uses to "overload" their checks by brute focing htem with or two to let 1 get a sweep, I've done this before, the rush you get from simply leaving your foes rachi to jump kick kill range from +2 sawsbuck or just demolishing shit by overloading them is insane imo, especially with how much offensive pressure you put on the foe with multi-normabuse, it's like 3 steel 3 dragon meta in late DPPT (I may be pro latias g4 unban, but I will admit that the move tutors and salamence did make this metagame, and it made the meta a hell to play in) 3 norm checks 3 norm abusers
edit: Mr OMgness's post makes a lot of sense, and I really think it should be used as a emergancy option, ah well, though we do have to deal with pranksleep still

Double EDit: just re-read post 666, OH YOU SILLY ARCTIC

 

[Arcticblast]

I think it might be a decent idea to have a Fix Normal-types option with a secondary vote later on as to how to do this. I've seen just how bad it is trying to check all of these Normal-types - even with a Shuckle, Jellicent, Excadrill, and Sableye all on my team, getting past a Sawsbuck or a Bibarel can be pretty damn hard sometimes. These Pokemon are able to overwhelm some of their checks by brute force alone, or by other methods like Spore or even Disable (?).

That said, I'm going to suggest that people don't vote for #5 - a playable Gen6 is actually pretty far away since we won't be able to get Pokemon information right away, let alone new mechanic quirks. There might even be a move we don't know about until someone spams Metronome for hours on end.

Final note: if the metagame leader asks for a vote reason, give a vote reason. If your post does not have a decent (read: not a troll) vote reason within twenty four hours of this post it will be deleted.

 

[EV]

Added a 6th option based on Arcticblast's feedback and Mr Omgness's idea.
(Too smart for their own good)