I personaly find that its better to use brick break on pawniward
As then it doesnt get walled by the rising pawniward usage or carvahhna and can hit somethings harder then knock off/s-punch/iron head can and provides neutral coverage.
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As then it doesnt get walled by the rising pawniward usage or carvahhna and can hit somethings harder then knock off/s-punch/iron head can and provides neutral coverage.
I feel like Swords Dance Pawniard doesn't set up enough to be worthwhile. I don't like Brick Break because Pawniard's STABs hit pretty much everything, but there are other options. Pursuit pairs well with Sucker Punch and lets you remove some very scary pokemon like non-WoW Missy and Slowpoke, and Stealth Rock is really easy to set up with Pawniard's great typing.
So according to the recent usage stats on irc, Gligar is actually the most used Pokemon in LC at the moment, and further, I will have to disagree with Electrolyte on the matter. Gligar is useful for nearly everything. Virtually every Gligar set is "overcountered" on a given team because Gligar is simply the best in LC at multiple jobs atm. Let me give some example.
Do you need Stealth Rock? Gligar is the fastest reliable Stealth Rock user in the metagame right now, and one of the only SR users that is not weak to Fighting-types, allowing valuable weaknesses to be patched by an SR user rather than creating a liability.
Do you need Defog? Gligar causes switches, and almost never to Pawniard, so Gligar is essentially (aside from Vullaby) the premier Defog user.
Do you need something to absorb Knock Off? Gligar can take a Knock Off with its naturally good Defense and then take advantage of it with Acrobatics.
Do you need something to Knock Off surprise opponents? Gligar baits a lot of particular defensive switches, such as Slowpoke, which abhor being Knocked Off.
Do you want to play a more defensive LC team? Complete stall isn't really a thing in this metagame, but the fast Toxic + Taunt set it can run is devastating to teams that cannot OHKO defensive Gligar.
Do you need both immunities and strong stats? Gligar is once again your man.
Overall, Gligar being overcountered is not to imply it should be used less; Gligar being overcountered is simply because it does all of these things at an exceedingly high level. Gligar is being prepared for by most every successful team because it is the most common Pokemon in the metagame, and not without reason. Whereas a Meditite or Carvanha is strong but provides a specific niche to a team looking for it, Gligar is strong and is exceedingly easy to work into most any team.
Do you need Stealth Rock? Gligar is the fastest reliable Stealth Rock user in the metagame right now, and one of the only SR users that is not weak to Fighting-types, allowing valuable weaknesses to be patched by an SR user rather than creating a liability.
Do you need Defog? Gligar causes switches, and almost never to Pawniard, so Gligar is essentially (aside from Vullaby) the premier Defog user.
Do you need something to absorb Knock Off? Gligar can take a Knock Off with its naturally good Defense and then take advantage of it with Acrobatics.
Do you need something to Knock Off surprise opponents? Gligar baits a lot of particular defensive switches, such as Slowpoke, which abhor being Knocked Off.
Do you want to play a more defensive LC team? Complete stall isn't really a thing in this metagame, but the fast Toxic + Taunt set it can run is devastating to teams that cannot OHKO defensive Gligar.
Do you need both immunities and strong stats? Gligar is once again your man.
Overall, Gligar being overcountered is not to imply it should be used less; Gligar being overcountered is simply because it does all of these things at an exceedingly high level. Gligar is being prepared for by most every successful team because it is the most common Pokemon in the metagame, and not without reason. Whereas a Meditite or Carvanha is strong but provides a specific niche to a team looking for it, Gligar is strong and is exceedingly easy to work into most any team.
This just goes to further show pawniwards amazingness as this is a quad effective attack and he cant ko with it. Furthermore pawniward would never stay in against a fighting type or anything that would carry a fighting type attack so this is a unreal scenario. All in all i admit i may have exaggerated pawniward just a little smidge but he is still an amazing poke in the meta right now and i am jus trying to get people to realize it especially after he was buffed majorly this gen.
skrelp, tentacool, and trubbish say hi
not sure koffing has a slot for tspikes, where would it go, over fire blast? psplit/wow/clearsmog/tspikes could work but koffing is kind of a punching bag without fire blast
not sure koffing has a slot for tspikes, where would it go, over fire blast? psplit/wow/clearsmog/tspikes could work but koffing is kind of a punching bag without fire blast
only problem i have with T-Spikes is that regular poison is meh, and it takes 2 turns to setup bad poison, but you probably are not going to like long enough to set that up (unless they setup on you). And In LC Toxic doesnt see a whole lot of use due to the fast-paced, high offensive meta-game. So i would rather have WoW or T-Wave to spread status on targets, as it really hinders the target, unlike poison/toxic
So how is the metagame looking with Tangela and Yanma gone?
Personally I think now Tangela is gone Carvanha and Tirtouga are looking much more threatening. Ferroseed, Lileep and Foongus are looking like the most likely bulky grass types to replace bulky Tangela, but all 3 are much more easy to take advantage of than Tangela meaning that they can be weakened enough to sweep with Carv/Tirt.
Due to this I also see Croagunk and Timburr rising, thanks to their priority moves beating these two and Pawniard who is still amazing as fuck. The also have the ability to threaten any switch-in with Knock Off, possibly paving the way for a Carv/Tirt/Other physical sweeper to sweep... These two also appreciate the fact that Yanma is gone.
The metagame in general seems to be more physical-based now that the best physical wall is out the way. I'm finding Knock Off spam is a great strategy with Pawniard/Gligar/Mienfoo etc...
Munchlax has much less of a niche because of the physical nature of the tier, and the fact it doesn't wall the 2 best things in the game anymore. Still, it can be a good mon for people struggling with Sun, which is still looking strong despite Tangela's ban.
Personally I think now Tangela is gone Carvanha and Tirtouga are looking much more threatening. Ferroseed, Lileep and Foongus are looking like the most likely bulky grass types to replace bulky Tangela, but all 3 are much more easy to take advantage of than Tangela meaning that they can be weakened enough to sweep with Carv/Tirt.
Due to this I also see Croagunk and Timburr rising, thanks to their priority moves beating these two and Pawniard who is still amazing as fuck. The also have the ability to threaten any switch-in with Knock Off, possibly paving the way for a Carv/Tirt/Other physical sweeper to sweep... These two also appreciate the fact that Yanma is gone.
The metagame in general seems to be more physical-based now that the best physical wall is out the way. I'm finding Knock Off spam is a great strategy with Pawniard/Gligar/Mienfoo etc...
Munchlax has much less of a niche because of the physical nature of the tier, and the fact it doesn't wall the 2 best things in the game anymore. Still, it can be a good mon for people struggling with Sun, which is still looking strong despite Tangela's ban.
unfortunately due to the physical-based tier that we have now, many more pokes wont see a whole lot of use, like munchlax as you said. But also Spritzee, while still a great wish passer and definitely viable, i only had it on my team to soak hits from missy, yanma, and tangela when it could, so its really lost a lot of potential to me. On top of that Vulpix will probably see less use, since it was usually paired with tangela. Sure other sun sweepers exist and will probably be seen, but they arn't Tangela and cant 6-0 a team. it seems small, but i think a lot of the special side is going to be missing now, which does make me a bit sad.
Not just Croagunk and Timburr (although these two are pretty fucking incredible atm), but all Fighting-types are gonna see a lot more use without two of some of their best checks. Spritzee is gonna even better this time around since it counters most Fighting-types, but it's also extremely easy to Knock Off since a lot of the Pokemon it wants to counter carry Knock Off, which makes it easy to take advantage of with say a Poison-type (which I also see increasing in usage with Fighting-types becoming more popular) or Pawniard. Slowpoke is gonna be awesome too, especially if people start to use Swords Dance Gligar more (they should).
@phemto, generally you only want to set up 1 layer of Toxic Spikes because it's much more efficient. The theoretical poisoned Pokemon has to be out for 4 turns for the badly poisoned effect to do more cumulative damage than regular poison, so it only does less vs walls like Porygon that will stack around for a while. You don't want to use up 2 turns setting up Toxic Spikes unless you're fighting some sort of stall team that doesn't have a grounded Poison-type. However, Toxic Spikes does have some other issues now, particularly the fact that some of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier (Gligar, Pawniard, Misdreavus, and Murkrow) aren't affected by it, and Timburr is actually boosted by getting status'd.
@phemto, generally you only want to set up 1 layer of Toxic Spikes because it's much more efficient. The theoretical poisoned Pokemon has to be out for 4 turns for the badly poisoned effect to do more cumulative damage than regular poison, so it only does less vs walls like Porygon that will stack around for a while. You don't want to use up 2 turns setting up Toxic Spikes unless you're fighting some sort of stall team that doesn't have a grounded Poison-type. However, Toxic Spikes does have some other issues now, particularly the fact that some of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier (Gligar, Pawniard, Misdreavus, and Murkrow) aren't affected by it, and Timburr is actually boosted by getting status'd.
ok this meta is actually pretty fun, but obviously there's still some broken shit out there. i guess it's cool abusing it for now, but we all know it will eventually just turn to staleness just like bw lc. just a couple thoughts...
- am i the only one who thinks swirlix is definitely legitimate suspect material? cm was threatening enough (not grounds for banning tho), but now that people i guess discovered bd swirl it's incredibly hard to stop as a mon overall unless extreme precautions are made. bd just wrecks through teams that don't have really dedicated counters (i.e ferro), it isn't weak to priority other than lol bullet punch, and the sheer threat of it being cm and having flamethrower or another coverage move is just enough to deter pretty much ever possible switch-in. i know everyone says u just gotta keep it from setting up, but against good players it's really not that simple lol. when played right, it will find a way to set up.
- sub sd gligar is an absolute monster. easily mauls entire teams that lack bronzor, shellder, slowpoke, and i guess archen, but even then it's shaky due to knock and bronzor being complete set-up bait. it's sad when the most used tactic to combat other sd glig is to set up along side with your own glig and hope for speed tie.
- um ya pawniard what a piece of shit
- sun teams are still pretty good, and even tho sweepers like bulbasaur still can be dangerous, it just isn't near the threat it was when tangela around.
- am i the only one who thinks swirlix is definitely legitimate suspect material? cm was threatening enough (not grounds for banning tho), but now that people i guess discovered bd swirl it's incredibly hard to stop as a mon overall unless extreme precautions are made. bd just wrecks through teams that don't have really dedicated counters (i.e ferro), it isn't weak to priority other than lol bullet punch, and the sheer threat of it being cm and having flamethrower or another coverage move is just enough to deter pretty much ever possible switch-in. i know everyone says u just gotta keep it from setting up, but against good players it's really not that simple lol. when played right, it will find a way to set up.
- sub sd gligar is an absolute monster. easily mauls entire teams that lack bronzor, shellder, slowpoke, and i guess archen, but even then it's shaky due to knock and bronzor being complete set-up bait. it's sad when the most used tactic to combat other sd glig is to set up along side with your own glig and hope for speed tie.
- um ya pawniard what a piece of shit
- sun teams are still pretty good, and even tho sweepers like bulbasaur still can be dangerous, it just isn't near the threat it was when tangela around.
Swirlix's Belly Drum set is literally the most dangerous sweeper in the tier, Calm Mind is scary too, and nothing can beat both sets except Meditite, who only KO's like .4% of the time with Eviolite and gets destroyed by unboosted Dazzing Gleams / Play Roughs with Life Orb, and can't touch Cotton Guard sets. Nobody knows what Swirlix does until it sets up, and if you guess wrong and it sets up, it will destroy you.
Gligar is just as bad. It's so fast, it's so bulky, it's so strong, its STABs are amazing and its defensive typing is great too. SD + Knock Off set alone crushes everything in its path except Shellos. Yeah, sure, it gets revenged by random scarfers with Ice Beam, but practically every time it comes in something will die. Plus it has like thirty other viable sets that utilize its ridiculous movepool to cover basically every niche there is. It's easily the best pokemon in Little Cup and if you don't have it on your team, you're throwing.
pleeeeeease suspect them
Gligar is just as bad. It's so fast, it's so bulky, it's so strong, its STABs are amazing and its defensive typing is great too. SD + Knock Off set alone crushes everything in its path except Shellos. Yeah, sure, it gets revenged by random scarfers with Ice Beam, but practically every time it comes in something will die. Plus it has like thirty other viable sets that utilize its ridiculous movepool to cover basically every niche there is. It's easily the best pokemon in Little Cup and if you don't have it on your team, you're throwing.
pleeeeeease suspect them
I agree with your post but this is just wrong - Meditite is not the only thing that beats both sets. Grimer and Skrelp (koffing?) can take on both sets fairly well with the right EV spread. Aron also works, but it can be 2HKO'd by switching into an unboosted Surf, but you switch in on anything else it will win.
That being said, the annoying part of (BD) Swirlx is that you literally need to save Grimer or Skrelp JUST for Swirlx. Want Grimer to switch in on Mienfoo? Well you can't, because Grimer will live a +6 Return, but with just a little bit of health left, so you cannot take much damage at all.
SD Knock Off Gligar is getting more usage it seems, and it should because it is very hard to counter. +2 Knock Off beats Archen even if you carry Hidden Power Ice. Slowpoke also loses to SD + Knock Off sets if it doesn't carry Ice Beam. Shellos also loses if it does not carry Ice Beam.
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i want swirlix suspected cause of what you said. +6 +2 full health in one turn is absolutely ridiculous and not really fair. it also literally punishes you for NOT ohkoing you. like if you dont oneshot it you are so screwed.
i dont know about gligar though. i think its the best pokemon in lc, but its not broken at all. theres nothing that it does that makes me go "it beats you without over planinng for it" or soemthing like that. it has a lot of checks, it generally stretches itself too thin in what its trying to do cause its trying to do too much, and honestly idk i just dont think its broken. it can do everything but its not broken at anything.
pawniard is not broken at all imo, idk i dont find knock off a big problem at all though so my opinion on this matter is pretty bad. i think people spam knock off way too much and glorify it way too much cause honestly not that good of a move that EVERYTHIGN should be using it.
obviously i dont get to choose suspects but i dont exactly remember how it works but i definately agree swirlix is a pos but i dont think gligar is that badd
i dont know about gligar though. i think its the best pokemon in lc, but its not broken at all. theres nothing that it does that makes me go "it beats you without over planinng for it" or soemthing like that. it has a lot of checks, it generally stretches itself too thin in what its trying to do cause its trying to do too much, and honestly idk i just dont think its broken. it can do everything but its not broken at anything.
pawniard is not broken at all imo, idk i dont find knock off a big problem at all though so my opinion on this matter is pretty bad. i think people spam knock off way too much and glorify it way too much cause honestly not that good of a move that EVERYTHIGN should be using it.
obviously i dont get to choose suspects but i dont exactly remember how it works but i definately agree swirlix is a pos but i dont think gligar is that badd
thunderbolt is very viable
+1 204+ SpA Swirlix Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 8-10 (38 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 204+ SpA Swirlix Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Growlithe: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
grimer is not
idk gligar has lots of checks but nothing can switch into it and take a knock off except shellos. Bronzor, Slowpoke, anything else with Eviolite, Choice Scarfers, they all get wrecked by Knock Off and then either unceremoniously destroyed or shit on the next time they come in, which isn't that hard because Gligar can switch in on half the tier for free.
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I have found that Aron solves both of those problems. Sturdy/BJ is a guaranteed 2HKO on BD Swirlix AND he has the ability to run Roar, which goes through substitute and cancels stat boosts. As long as you can outpredict or even just swap him in on a Baton Passer or sweeper, you will always stop their momentum.
sturdyjuice is not reliable, stealth rock breaks it and they can acrobatics/dazzling gleam to break it, ihead/eq/sr/metalburst doesn't have room for roar anyway, and the next time they come in and you don't have sturdy, you're certainly fucked
idk knock off isnt that good idk why people act like its complete god mode all the time 9.9 and idk gligar doesnt really get a lot of free switchins if only because most things run some ice move as their last move cause of it LOL.
its kind of hard to switch into gligar but idk its pretty doable for the most part
Gligar: You can't underestimate Knock Off because it clears a path for other sweepers, specifically on Gligar who has such specific counters. Obviously SubSD is the most dangerous set though. I think Gligar at the very least is qualifying from the "deterring people from playing" or at least taking it seriously.
1) It has been the MVP for like 80% of all SPL games - meaning good players aren't just using Gligar; you can tell it's dominating the tier.
2) SPEED TIES.
Speed ties with Gligar vs Gligar and Gligar vs Missy turns the game into somewhat of a crapshoot, and with those two Pokemon, Substitute, and Swords Dance/Nasty Plot, the winner of the Speed tie is legitimately going to win the game. If you switch out, you lose or are severely disadvantage, if you stay in, it's a 50/50 shot. I think it's a little ridiculous and makes LC look bad.
Missy vs Missy would still be a problem (cross that bridge when we get there....) but Murkrow vs Missy is less of an issue because most Murkrow sets will be using Sucker Punch and Substitute, so it's Speed isn't a factor.
1) It has been the MVP for like 80% of all SPL games - meaning good players aren't just using Gligar; you can tell it's dominating the tier.
2) SPEED TIES.
Speed ties with Gligar vs Gligar and Gligar vs Missy turns the game into somewhat of a crapshoot, and with those two Pokemon, Substitute, and Swords Dance/Nasty Plot, the winner of the Speed tie is legitimately going to win the game. If you switch out, you lose or are severely disadvantage, if you stay in, it's a 50/50 shot. I think it's a little ridiculous and makes LC look bad.
Missy vs Missy would still be a problem (cross that bridge when we get there....) but Murkrow vs Missy is less of an issue because most Murkrow sets will be using Sucker Punch and Substitute, so it's Speed isn't a factor.
yeah i'm of the mindset that gligar is worth banning--all of the "lc is just speed ties" is inflated by gligar being on so many teams. gligar being many people's gligar check likewise means the gligar gligar speed tie happens a lot. it's just an overinflated representation. if gligar were to go, in my opinion, so would this perception.
though we do need to accept the inevitability of speed ties. there are like 15 speeds period, so it'll happen. * shrugs *
though we do need to accept the inevitability of speed ties. there are like 15 speeds period, so it'll happen. * shrugs *
Yes, but those 15 other Speeds aren't 19 Speed super Little Cup mons like Missy or Gligar, idgaf if Mienfoo wins a Speed tie vs my Mienfoo it's not as big of a deal because it can be revenged reliably with most faster Pokemon. In Gen 4, we managed to sort of get around Speed ties being an issue, I don't know why it's been such an issue in the next two Gen's, but it probably has to do with the smaller banlists and Eviolite making middle-speed bulky pokemon more viable. Either way, Gligar is the poster scorpion for this problem - sooner its gone the better imo.
Edit: darkamber8288 elaborates on my gen 4 point on the next page -> respond to that instead ;p.
Edit: darkamber8288 elaborates on my gen 4 point on the next page -> respond to that instead ;p.
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After a lot of thought i agree that gligar is ban worthy or at least definitely suspect worthy mostly for the reason it was banned last gen its unpredictability and ability to perform so many roles. To answer one of your questions in the suspect threads I believe gligar makes the meta less fun as with its speed and bulk so amazing you must run a counter to it at all times or you will lose most games and of course theres the speed tie thing which is true as if you don't run something that is a scarfer of 14 speed and higher or 19 speed that is relatively powerful and is has a ice or water move you will lose.
Hai guys, I made a new set. This is just one replay I recorded, I could get a lot more if needed. Complete 6-0 or like 4-0 stomps are common, I'd say I get them in 65-70% of the games I've played with this team, which is around 40.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-78040401
In conclusion, Torchic is stupid. Sub/Protect/Curse/Baton is definitely Torchic's best set, having tried out multiple variations as well as Swords Dance sets. Substitute lets you safely pass to other mons and eases tension on prediction. Protect gives a free +1 Speed. Curse is the real deal maker, letting you tank things like Earthquakes and Brave Birds. Basically no physical move OHKOs at +1 def, and since Protect gives a free speed boost, you will almost never be taking hits at +0 defense. This lets you almost always get a +1 +1 +1 pass to something like Gligar or Meditite.
This game was won from the very beginning, there was nothing my opponent could have done other than not use Spritzee at all. Getting a physical Quiver Dance of boosts to Meditite is basically game against most teams. At +2, it OHKOs everything except Spritzee. I'm not sure how people are supposed to deal with this set other than stupid shit like Prankster Encore/Haze/Twave, considering that with defense boosts, Meditite basically takes any priority, and then heals it all back with Drain Punch. There are an extreme lack of viable Roar users in this meta, and there is literally nothing you can do to stop Torchic from passing +1 def, atk, and spe at some point in the game. Right now I'm running Haze Krow in case I run into someone using my set, and I'm thinking about WW Vullaby, but for now I can't think of any other reliable ways to deal with it. Sturdy BJ doesn't work because you can Bullet Punch to break Sturdy then heal off all damage with Drain. Gale Wings Acrobatics is the 2nd best answer aside from phazing, but it's not 100% reliable either seeing as Acrobatics doesn't even OHKO +1 Meditite.
I've already abused enough out of this set on the ladder to see that it potentially poses a problem for the metagame, and I would like to see some discussion on it. This set is far more punishing of mistakes than Swirlix, and this set can win games in the first 5 turns. Idk guys. I just don't see a good way to deal with this without having to use a set that would be detrimental to its teams potential when not facing Torchic.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-78040401
In conclusion, Torchic is stupid. Sub/Protect/Curse/Baton is definitely Torchic's best set, having tried out multiple variations as well as Swords Dance sets. Substitute lets you safely pass to other mons and eases tension on prediction. Protect gives a free +1 Speed. Curse is the real deal maker, letting you tank things like Earthquakes and Brave Birds. Basically no physical move OHKOs at +1 def, and since Protect gives a free speed boost, you will almost never be taking hits at +0 defense. This lets you almost always get a +1 +1 +1 pass to something like Gligar or Meditite.
This game was won from the very beginning, there was nothing my opponent could have done other than not use Spritzee at all. Getting a physical Quiver Dance of boosts to Meditite is basically game against most teams. At +2, it OHKOs everything except Spritzee. I'm not sure how people are supposed to deal with this set other than stupid shit like Prankster Encore/Haze/Twave, considering that with defense boosts, Meditite basically takes any priority, and then heals it all back with Drain Punch. There are an extreme lack of viable Roar users in this meta, and there is literally nothing you can do to stop Torchic from passing +1 def, atk, and spe at some point in the game. Right now I'm running Haze Krow in case I run into someone using my set, and I'm thinking about WW Vullaby, but for now I can't think of any other reliable ways to deal with it. Sturdy BJ doesn't work because you can Bullet Punch to break Sturdy then heal off all damage with Drain. Gale Wings Acrobatics is the 2nd best answer aside from phazing, but it's not 100% reliable either seeing as Acrobatics doesn't even OHKO +1 Meditite.
I've already abused enough out of this set on the ladder to see that it potentially poses a problem for the metagame, and I would like to see some discussion on it. This set is far more punishing of mistakes than Swirlix, and this set can win games in the first 5 turns. Idk guys. I just don't see a good way to deal with this without having to use a set that would be detrimental to its teams potential when not facing Torchic.
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