General Discussion

[Darkamber8828]

In Gen 4, we managed to sort of get around Speed ties being an issue, I don't know why it's been such an issue in the next two Gen's, but it probably has to do with the smaller banlists

Well, first of all, Misdreavus and Murkrow were banned. The only viable pokemon with 19 speed were like, Gligar, Buizel (Aqua Jet), Meowth (suicide lead), Staryu (pretty rare), and Ponyta / Magby (rare + can't switch on EdgeQuake). Then there were Diglett, Elekid, and Voltorb, who were all a lot more viable back then than they are now, and they all ran HP Ice / Ice Punch.

Second of all, Gligar was much less useful as a mon. Most importantly, it didn't have STAB Acrobatics, so Swords Dance sets had to run Stone Edge, which means it couldn't break past most Ground-resists. It didn't have Defog. It didn't have a strong Knock Off to let it 2HKO everything that the rest of the tier could only 3HKO, because everything in Gen 4 was a 2HKO. It also hit Bronzor, who was one of the best SR setters at the time and walled Gligar to shit. It couldn't use Berry Juice or Eviolite or Flying Gem because they were banned / didn't exist.

fuck i miss when there were no eviolites

 

[Camden]

Posting here because I want to hear peoples thoughts on the meta at this point. What are you guys expecting to see rise up now that Gligar and Swirlix have been banned...besides obviously Meditite?

I see Fighting-types in general becoming more common, and as a result fighting-type checks becoming more common. But the question stands: Given the presense of Knock Off, what in this point and time best checks Fighting-types, especially Meditite?

 

[DTC]

Spritzee and Snubbull are probably the two best Fighting-type checks in the metagame. Snubbull is bulkier on the physical side while Spritzee has Wish for support.

Gligar being banned means a lot of Pokemon can stop running Ice-type coverage just for Gligar. Aside from the obvious Meditite, Timburr and Murkrow appreciate from this. Timburr can now use Bulk Up > Ice Punch which is pretty nice. You have to remove quite a lot of Pokemon before Timburr can actually sweep, but it's a nice move to have when the opportunity arises. Life Orb Murkrow can use Prankster Thunder Wave in the last slot as a last resort for a threatening sweeper, or just Hidden Power Grass.

Honedge is pretty cool now that Meditite is a lot better and its best counter Gligar has been banned. I'm not talking about Swords Dance Hondge, though; Automize / Destiny Bond / Iron Head / Shadow Claw or Sacred Sword is where it is at.

 

[Wobbyble]

IMO:

• Gligar and Swirlix banned = shitton more fightings = use moar Spritzee
• Also more Honedge, which is still trash, like C tier maybe at best.
• Full offensive Krow rather than defensive ones are gonna be seen more because the loss of the other best offensive flying type.
• Foongus might become more popular
• Grimer and Koffing can go back to being trash, ty
• Probably a decrease in Magnemites
• Meditite counters all the fighting types barring itself and doesnt need Ice Punch so its basically op now lol
• Missy becomes more popular due to bs Meditite

tl;dr fucking swirlix

 

[Kappaten]

Fletchling handles most fighting types well, and I definitely see its usage increasing now that it doesn't have competition for that teamslot with Gligar. Trubbish can also handle fighting types with recycle + berry juice + sticky hold, but can't handle Meditite. In fact, Trubbish could be a great check to fighting types in general.

Meditite is handled easily by Wynaut (who is probably the strongest check out there, even stronger with voltturn support), while Misdreavus and Honedge both handle rather easily, too. Let's hope that fire punch Meditite isn't going to be a big thing.

I could also see Elgyem getting some good use to handle Meditite, but it can't really do much else other than that. It does have everything it needs to handle Tite, with options like Skill Swap, Cosmic Power, Trick, Recover, Disable, and Thunder Wave.

As far as threats that appreciate Gligar being gone (because everything hated Swirlix except like, Cottonee), I see Ponyta and Larvesta getting more general use thanks to Gligar no longer being on 40% of teams, since they were already good and now only really have issues with Stealth Rock.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Cofagrigus is a pretty good stop to fighting types, and so is slowbro, i heard.nah jk on a real note i see le fairies rising in usage (bull and spritz and #basedcotton) i expect more flying types and larvesta as well

 

[skies]

I'd like to discuss Offensive Tyrunt.
Tyrunt is seen often as just a bulky SR Setter, which it's good at, but let's not neglect its huge 19 Base Attack and access to Dragon Dance!
Tyrunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Strong Jaw
Level: 5
EVs: 212 Spd / 204 Atk / 92 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Fang
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang

After one Dragon Dance, it hits 21 Speed and 28 Attack, allowing it to wreck. Look:

+1 204+ Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Tyrunt Ice Fang vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 26-31 (104 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

will type up the rest later, laptop about to die

 

[Wobbyble]

whats the point of ice fang lol? use like crunch or dragon claw
either way, its typing, poor coverage, and lack of outrage make it pretty weak, tbh it has no real niche or viability even as an offensive SR setter, pawniards so much better for that

 

[GlassGlaceon]

I'd like to discuss Offensive Tyrunt.
Tyrunt is seen often as just a bulky SR Setter, which it's good at, but let's not neglect its huge 19 Base Attack and access to Dragon Dance!
Tyrunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Strong Jaw
Level: 5
EVs: 212 Spd / 204 Atk / 92 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Fang
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang

After one Dragon Dance, it hits 21 Speed and 28 Attack, allowing it to wreck. Look:

+1 204+ Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Tyrunt Ice Fang vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 26-31 (104 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

will type up the rest later, laptop about to die

19 base attack would be dreadful tbh

 

[Darkamber8828]

tyrunt gets shit on by fighting-types, which are going to be ubiquitous, and gets wrecked by mach punch / bullet punch / ice shard, which really hurts its sweeps

also tirtouga / dwebble kinda outclass it as rock sweepers

 

[PumpHead]

tyrunt gets shit on by fighting-types, which are going to be ubiquitous, and gets wrecked by mach punch / bullet punch / ice shard, which really hurts its sweeps

also tirtouga / dwebble kinda outclass it as rock sweepers

this.
Also, the one thing that makes Tyrunt threatening is the coverage it gets with Strong Jaw buffs. Something like Timburr just stomps it though.
Scarf can also work on it decently.

 

[macle]

can we not make posts saying "x gets beat by y-type"? Every Pokemon has weaknesses. Its better to talk about how it can possibly overcome the weaknesses (team support, certain ev spreads, moves) then just dismissing it.

 

[Darkamber8828]

ok so

what does DD tyrunt do that SS tirtouga doesn't

A. dragon stab (that it doesn't use? edgequake + fire fang is the best option i think)
B. not weak to grass/electric (but foongus will sleep/clear smog/paralyze you, cottonee will paralyze/encore/dazzling gleam you, scarf snover speed ties unless you run jolly for some reason, chinchou has ice beam, and tirtouga OHKOs elekid anyway)
C. not as vulnerable to SR / hail

but tirtouga has

A. sturdyjuice
B. amazing stabs
C. more attack after 1 boost
C. STAB priority
D. isn't weak to steel (bullet punch) / ice (ice shard) / fairy

it's not unusable, i guess, just doesn't really offer anything new (except it beats ferro??)

 

[skies]

ok so

what does DD tyrunt do that SS tirtouga doesn't

A. dragon stab (that it doesn't use? edgequake + fire fang is the best option i think)
B. not weak to grass/electric (but foongus will sleep/clear smog/paralyze you, cottonee will paralyze/encore/dazzling gleam you, scarf snover speed ties unless you run jolly for some reason, chinchou has ice beam, and tirtouga OHKOs elekid anyway)
C. not as vulnerable to SR / hail

but tirtouga has

A. sturdyjuice
B. amazing stabs
C. more attack after 1 boost
C. STAB priority
D. isn't weak to steel (bullet punch) / ice (ice shard) / fairy

it's not unusable, i guess, just doesn't really offer anything new (except it beats ferro??)

It also doesn't lose a shit ton of bulk after one Shell Smash. It gets doubley fast, but Tirtouga cannot beat Ferroseed, another reason that Tyrunt is used. I'm not saying either is better than either, but both have many strong points and should not just be classified as one being better than the other, as they are not.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

It also doesn't lose a shit ton of bulk after one Shell Smash. It gets doubley fast, but Tirtouga cannot beat Ferrothorn, another reason that Tyrunt is used. I'm not saying either is better than either, but both have many strong points and should not just be classified as one being better than the other, as they are not.

neither can beat ferrothorn tbh. Tyrunt has better coverage, but neither beat fighting types it seems. I still say tirtouga, because it gets an immediate +2 as opposed to +1 and it seems like the def. drops dont usually end up mattering in my experience

 

[skies]

neither can beat ferrothorn tbh

Ferroseed* sorry lol.
but, ahem +1 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrunt Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 320-380 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

[Awesomebob333]

Has scraggy's popularity gone down. When I first played little cup (4 months ago) almost every team had one with the same exact moveset and I don't see anybody using one. It may because I am low on the ladder but still

 

[GlassGlaceon]

it's just because spritzee is everywhere and being low-ladder doesn't help

 

[Pancham]

Now that Gligar and Swirlicute have been forsaken, I think there's only one last thing to say:

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

Yeah, Meditite is now the dominant pokemon in the tier due to it now being able to run ThunderPunch for Slowpoke. Spritzee remains a decent check, but Meditite looks like the next broken thing this round of LC.

 

[Pancham]

Yah, Meditite is definitely a major threat, but I do feel like we're underestimating Murkrow's power-level. Murkrow has no true counters, due to it now being able to run Dark Pulse or HPGrass, seeing as though HPIce is unneeded. Defensive Archen is now 2HKO, after Stealth Rock, by Dark Pulse (it was by HPIce also, though), but now Murkrow has a chance to flinch Archen, and coupled with Rock Slide's 90% accuracy, you could potentially lose because of this. Murkrow will take some serious playing around, and stalling out with Brave Bird and Life Orb recoil.

One mon I look forward to trying out this meta is Wynaut, however. It's probably the best check to Meditite in this meta, now that Thunder Punch can be used on it. Sowpoke is still decent for those Medi's that still run Fake Out+Bullet Punch, mostly for weakened Spritzee.

(I still plan to vote Carvanha as #1 just because it's so ugly, and ugly mons should not be LC)

 

[Darkamber8828]

is elgyem actually viable or are people really that desperate

analytic is nice but most of the time people use recover so they don't get shit on next switch

 

[GlassGlaceon]

is elgyem actually viable or are people really that desperate

analytic is nice but most of the time people use recover so they don't get shit on next switch

elgyem is actually viable, i've used him reliably since BW2, although the knock off buff makes him require more support

 

[macle]

hi

I was wondering what you guys feel are the 3 most potentially broken mons / items / moves atm. I'll share my current ones

• meditite - extremely hard to counter. 2hkoes most of the metagame. Its speed its its biggest downside and often can be forced out with faster pokemon like missy and krow
• Murkrow - extremely powerful mon. Mix sets do damage to every mon except like nosepass. Prankster Twave sets are just lame
• Prankster + Confusion - if you have ever played my swag team, you know why

 

[Phemeto]

hi

I was wondering what you guys feel are the 3 most potentially broken mons / items / moves atm. I'll share my current ones

• meditite - extremely hard to counter. 2hkoes most of the metagame. Its speed its its biggest downside and often can be forced out with faster pokemon like missy and krow
• Murkrow - extremely powerful mon. Mix sets do damage to every mon except like nosepass. Prankster Twave sets are just lame
• Prankster + Confusion - if you have ever played my swag team, you know why

Pretty much that. thats the entire meta. I actually miss gligar =(