General Metagame Discussion Thread

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hamiltonion

Nostalgic
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In fact, Ubers is generally considered to be the game with the most stable metagame. By stable I do not mean dominated, Ubers has a number of equally viable and entirely unique teams.

This is something no other tier has ever come close to achieving. In many people's opinion Ubers is the best tier because it has all the key elements of a tier that the "legitimate" tiers do not always, or even often, possess.
Agreeing 100% with Vratix. Currently, I believe Ubers is the most stable and balanced metagame is extremely fun to play. In the coming days it will be even more fun to play with the new DW Pokemons being released. Also I believe that Ubers is the most skill rewarding and skill oriented metagame at present.
 

Go10

Storm Vanguard !
Who will be released ? The Uber metagame is always the most balanced since he dont need any ban (hum Arceus ... anyway).
 
To try to move the topic in a more productive direction, what are say the top 5 threats in ubers. Kyorgue is definatly up there along with arceus, but what else? Mewtwo maybe?
It's hard to pick five Ubers as best, so I think instead I'll just give five categories and the best for each.

In terms of best Uber, it's definitely Arceus. Not because its sets are impossible to deal with (they aren't), but because of the sheer amount of roles it can fill on any team. It can do pretty much everything short of Spiking and spinning, and hell, it almost can do that with Magic Coat. There is almost always a reason to run Arceus somewhere on your team. What role and type it has just depends on your needs.

Most deadly goes to Mewtwo. It can wreck almost everything with the offensive CM set, but Taunt CM Lefties Mewtwo is still also pretty deadly, and completely dismantles a lot of stall teams.

Most powerful? Definitely Kyogre. Specs Water Spout is the most deadly move in the game, hands down. Nothing except Palkia and the specialized lower tier mons is switching into that safely. Pretty much all of its sets are good, but Specs is really the best in my opinion.

I'll add a non-Uber for best supporter. Ferrothorn. It's like this thing was tailor-made for the Uber metagame. It's made Scizor completley obsolete as a Dragon-type resist, actually threatens any Kyogre that isn't Specs or running Scald, and has kept Spikes as common as ever in Ubers, taking over Deoxys-S's role. Thunder Wave and Leech Seed are also cool for messing up shit.

And lastly I'll throw in best revenge killer. Scarf Palkia. It's one of the few things that can deal with Kyogre, revenges a lot of threatening stuff, and just generally acts as a glue for a lot of teams. It can't revenge kill Extremekiller Arceus, though, so I'd say Scarf Terrakion is probably the best for that role.
 

drcossack

I'm everywhere, you ain't never there
Arceus obviously. Playing without him is like playing without SR, you've an handicap which can be troublesome.

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Not really. We've lost Latias, SpecsOgre can obliterate everything in his way and it's not your Ferrothorn who'll stop him. Yeah we have Palkia/Giratina/Ferrothorn but meh, a single layer of Spikes and/or SR ensure you'll 2HKO them. Sun is good since you have Reshiram / Ho-Oh, but seriously, the instant Power and the lack of SR weakness, Rain are really powerfull and can have issue even without the rain.

Actually, DialgaLO is the most annoying pokemon since he can TW everything and 2HKO/OHKO the TWcheck (bar Arceus Ground).
Arceus? You don't need him. I've top 10'd on the ladder without even using it on my current team. I think I peaked at 7th when I had Steel Arceus.

SpecsOgre is a HUGE pain in the ass, I agree. Nothing barring Palkia (maybe), Gastrodon, Quagsire, or Shedinja can switch in on Specs Spout. IF you sacrifice a pokemon (ie Forry), Ferrothorn can come in and Leech Seed, but it dies otherwise.

As for Reshiram, I quite enjoy the Specs set. It's a little hard to use though, especially with its base 90 Speed. Tailwind support is practically required for it to outspeed the things that threaten it though (ie Palkia); Rain really ruins its day too.

Honestly, rain is just really easy to play with. Send Kyogre out after Groudon dies and Ferrothorn can just sit there. Leech Seed + Protect Ferro just doesn't die.
 
I don't even bother considering Palkia as a check to Kyogre to be honest, at least when I use it. It utterly despises Specs Thunder and will lose to CM + 3 Attacks regardless (while risking paralysis in both cases).

Grass Arceus can check it (Grass Knot does enough damage to avoid the 2HKO on the second water spout) and recover health, but it loses if it gets caught by an Ice Beam. We need Soul Dew back lol.
 

hamiltonion

Nostalgic
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I don't even bother considering Palkia as a check to Kyogre to be honest, at least when I use it. It utterly despises Specs Thunder and will lose to CM + 3 Attacks regardless (while risking paralysis in both cases).

Grass Arceus can check it (Grass Knot does enough damage to avoid the 2HKO on the second water spout) and recover health, but it loses if it gets caught by an Ice Beam. We need Soul Dew back lol.
If your opponent gets a 100% Kyogre in safely, its basically the skill of the player facing the Kyogre which determines if he will be able to force it out or not. If you have a Ferrothorn and a Palkia, it's up to you to predict if the Kyogre is going to Thunder or try a Water Spout. If you predict wrong and if your opponent has Spikes+SR on the field, you can good-bye to your switch in, especially if its Specs Ogre.

Go 10 said:
Who will be released ? The Uber metagame is always the most balanced since he dont need any ban
I meant the unreleased DW pokemon like Regeneration Ho-Oh and most importantly our beloved Soul Dew.
 

Go10

Storm Vanguard !
Arceus? You don't need him. I've top 10'd on the ladder without even using it on my current team. I think I peaked at 7th when I had Steel Arceus.
Come on man, why are talking about the ladder ? You can pick first just by playing with your foot. I dont think it's really hard to beat some Charizard ...
I know you can play without Arceus, but why playing something when Arceus can do better in most case ? It's like playing Forretress for Spiking when you have Ferrothorn and you dont need Rapid Spin.

Nothing can check SpecsOgre right now. Ferrothorn and Palkia can switch in but they have to be aware of Ice Beam / Water Spout. Giratina / Arceus Grass can take everything bar Water Sp'/Ice Beam and Arceus Dragon / Rayquaza can setup on it after a kill (Ice Beam obviously). That's all.

I meant the unreleased DW pokemon like Regeneration Ho-Oh and most importantly our beloved Soul Dew.
In a while so.
 
Nothing can check SpecsOgre right now. Ferrothorn and Palkia can switch in but they have to be aware of Ice Beam / Water Spout. Giratina / Arceus Grass can take everything bar Water Sp'/Ice Beam and Arceus Dragon / Rayquaza can setup on it after a kill (Ice Beam obviously). That's all.
Gastrodon says hi. Can take anything, outstalls ice beam with recover easily, while being bulky enough to take special hits from other ubers as well.
 
You more begginer player might think im crazy to make this Declaration but face it its the truth

Uber is THE MOST BALANCED metagame ever existed.

For example, Yeah Kyogre is good, so what ? You have plenty of checks on your disposal, and Groudon + Ho-oh is good enough to rival Kyogre. Rayquaza is good and force you to use steel, but you can revenge him, or do gajilion things to stop it.

Unlike current OU, uber metagame almost never have overly dominating team archetype except the fact that its full of weather wars that no one will give shit about because they think its a broken metagame while its actualy VERY balanced
 
I'd go with Specially defensive Scizor IMO. nothing to deal with the fact that Ferrothorn sucks IMO and can be OHKO'd by an Overheat from GROUDON
 
My current team line-up is Thundurus, Mewtwo, support Dialga, Scarf Palkia, and mixed Giratina-O. I've tried Ferrothorn and not had much success with it.
 
My current team line-up is Thundurus, Mewtwo, support Dialga, Scarf Palkia, and mixed Giratina-O. I've tried Ferrothorn and not had much success with it.
In that case, I think Steelceus would be best for you, especially since you aren't running Kyogre(which helps Ferrothorn take those Flamethrowers a lot better).
 

Go10

Storm Vanguard !
I'd rather use Skarmory here, he has nothing for Groudon/Physical Arceus (Gira isnt enough). Also, Skarm bring a good Ground immunity.
 
He has Giratina-O for Groudon and a good Ground-type immune. Physical Arceus does rape that team though so Skarmory is probably the best choice.
 
My Thundurus carries Grass Knot specifically to deal with Groudon. I didn't consider Skarmory, but it's typing does complement the team well, I'll give it a shot.
 
Doesn't Steelceus normally use Will-o-Wisp and max Speed to outrun physical Arceus and burn it? The more troublesome variant would be Ground, who often runs max+ speed and KOs with STAB Earthquake... Skarmory would be a decent choice. Too bad you don't run your own Groudon!
 

polop

Would you look at the time?
is a Contributor Alumnus
Hmm steelceus does the better job in my opinion it can wow and phaze via roar but if wow misses its kinda screwed. But, about the metagame itself, shell passing is considered broken in every tier, but I haven't tested it enough nor seen it enough to think its broken or even viable in ubers. Anyone tried smash/shell passing in ubers?
 
Ferrothorn is probably like the most annoying Pokemon in existence -______-. Like you need to run Ho-oh or Reshiram to beat it (or FP Groudon I guess) because otherwise, it can just Leech Seed you to death and Protect spam until you die. Ferrothorn is probably the most influential Pokemon in the metagame; he (and Drown All) are the predominant reason for all the teams that are like Ferrothorn/pHazer/pHazer/pHazer/Giratina(-O)/Kyogre, lol. Ferrothorn wouldn't really work because he just doesn't have as many necessary resistances as Ferrothorn does (for example, he can't check Zekrom at all lol - so you'd need to run Forry + Groudon or Forry + Arceus-Ground).

Secondly, Bulky SubRoost Ho-oh is just amazing in this meta, imo. He easily sets up a sub on Ferro and BB 2HKOes most common switch-ins. The main way to check him seems to be by using Kyogre + Dialga, but they need to be able to switch Kyogre in safely (which is hard seeing as BB 2HKOes and Sacred Fire does like 30% with a burn, which really adds up since the Kyogre is usually Choiced, and if it's not you can SubStall it until it dies), and even Dialga can only Roar it away, and if you can burn it then it'll slowly succumb to residual damage. I guess Giratina checks it, but +2 FB probably even 2HKOes Giratina too (in sun) -_____-.

Gastrodon is also really strong, tanking stuff like LO DM from Dialga and recovering off the damage. Sand is also pretty good because Excadrill is the best spinner (which lets Ho-oh get in safely), and TTar basically maims Giratina-O, stopping all Spinblocking. Blaziken + Sun is also amazing; it basically kills any team with just a bit of residual damage: stuff like Lugia is like 2HKOed by Flare Blitz.
 
I never had much trouble with Ferrothorn. An Adamant RP Groudon with no special attack investment can OHKO with Overheat unless the opponent sacked Kyogre earlier or something. Seeing as Groudon pretty much needs only Earthquake and Dragon Claw, you can afford to sack a slot for Overheat(you still have trouble killing Lugia so you don't need Stone Miss)
 
I never had much trouble with Ferrothorn. An Adamant RP Groudon with no special attack investment can OHKO with Overheat unless the opponent sacked Kyogre earlier or something. Seeing as Groudon pretty much needs only Earthquake and Dragon Claw, you can afford to sack a slot for Overheat(you still have trouble killing Lugia so you don't need Stone Miss)
The opponent switches in Kyogre and takes minuscule damage from Overheat. What will you do now? I find that Rock Polish Groudon is much better with Swords Dance in one of its moveslots, as this provides it with much more power, allowing it to muscle past Lugia and Ferrothorn with more ease. Still, using no Fire move Groudon to beat Ferrothorn is stupid unless you're at +4...

If you have trouble with Ferrothorn, Dragon-types not named Palkia or Giratina have an easier time with it. Dialga is notable as it walls it hard and bulkier variants aren't totally crippled by paralysis. Under the rain, Max SpA +Natured Dialga deals 59.1% - 70.5% to Ferrothorn with Fire Blast, ensuring a 2HKO. Flamethrower deals 47.7% - 56.8%, which can only ensure a 2HKO after some residual damage. Dialga is generally able to come out on top.

Another decent check for Ferrothorn is Mixed Rayquaza, especially when it leads. Many expect the physical set, switching in their precious Ferrothorn, only for it to get cooked with Fire Blast or Flamethrower, both of which OHKO with a Life Orb. Mixed Rayquaza also deals heavy damage to offensive Kyogre with Draco Meteor. Ferrothorn still cannot switch in safely after that, as -2 LO Fire Blast does 70.5% - 84.1%, easily 2HKOing. However, Rayquaza doesn't enjoy Leech Seed and is totally crippled by Thunder Wave, making it an unsafe switch-in.
 
The opponent switches in Kyogre and takes minuscule damage from Overheat. What will you do now? I find that Rock Polish Groudon is much better with Swords Dance in one of its moveslots, as this provides it with much more power, allowing it to muscle past Lugia and Ferrothorn with more ease. Still, using no Fire move Groudon to beat Ferrothorn is stupid unless you're at +4...
Swap? Usually the opponent never expects Overheat Groudon(I dunno why) and switches in Ferrothorn in the middle of a Groudon sweep, only to get destroyed instantly. ._.
 
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