General Metagame Discussion

[doughboy]

And then when you force him into focus blast you just have him miss 4 times in a row to get some free switches and setup...

I used the event Torrential Fall Cradily, boosts evasion 20 % in rain.

How does everyone feel about Dugtrio just breaching OU in this gen? It's like he came back for OU like he was in 3rd. In general how do you feel about Sun? It's the only weather now that has access to viable weather speed boosts, but it's still not #1.

 

[Medziddo]

Hi, I'm new to the VGC side of Pokemon. Would like to know which combo(s) has been winning or placing very well consistently in tournaments (such as vgc regionals) for the vgc 12 metagame?

Is the vgc 12 metagame one whereby all pokemon in national dex can be used, except ubers?

 

[Elentiya]

I used the event Torrential Fall Cradily, boosts evasion 20 % in rain.

How does everyone feel about Dugtrio just breaching OU in this gen? It's like he came back for OU like he was in 3rd. In general how do you feel about Sun? It's the only weather now that has access to viable weather speed boosts, but it's still not #1.

I think Dugtrio is a fantastic trapper in this generation. There are still a lot of sandstorm teams around, and Dugtrio is one of the only Pokemon capable of trapping and killing Tyranitar. It's also great for taking care of Ninetales for sun teams. Speaking about sun teams, I don't think they're number one right now because Venusaur can be easily countered, and it's not really overcentralizing the metagame like Excadrill was. You really just need a Heatran on your team to counter all of its sets, so it's not that big of a threat. However, I think Tangrowth is a very underrated threat at the moment, as it can make quick work of Heatran and just devastate teams not properly prepared for it.

Hi, I'm new to the VGC side of Pokemon. Would like to know which combo(s) has been winning or placing very well consistently in tournaments (such as vgc regionals) for the vgc 12 metagame?

Is the vgc 12 metagame one whereby all pokemon in national dex can be used, except ubers?

I think this thread would be a better place to pose questions related to the VGC.

 

[SlimMan]

I think Dugtrio is a fantastic trapper in this generation. There are still a lot of sandstorm teams around, and Dugtrio is one of the only Pokemon capable of trapping and killing Tyranitar. It's also great for taking care of Ninetales for sun teams. Speaking about sun teams, I don't think they're number one right now because Venasaur can be easily countered, and it's not really overcentralizing the metagame like Excadrill was. You really just need a Heatran on your team to counter all of its sets, so it's not that big of a threat. However, I think Tangrowth is a very underrated threat at the moment, as it can make quick work of Heatran and just devastate teams not properly prepared for it.

If Venusaur is Mixed, it's carrying EQ and will OHKO Heatran.
If Venusaur is all-Special, it's probably carrying Sleep Powder and will just put Heatran to sleep.

Heatran is a terrible "counter" to Venusaur.

 

[jake]

I honestly hardly see Sleep Powder on Special Venusaur. Giving up coverage against either Steels (HP Fire) or the omnipresent Dragons (Sludge Bomb) kinda sucks.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Is Energy Ball really required? Sludge Bomb/Hp Fire hit most things (as long as you Sleep Powder that Heatran!) and most waters still despise +2 Sludge Bomb, especially with the 30% chance of Toxic poison status. Well, I guess Tentacruel can take that but unless it has Icebeam, what exactly is Tentacruel going to do to you? Actually, Tentacruel also has to fear the possibility of a mixed Earthquake or even purely physical so that's redundant.

Although now I realize why a mixed or physical is better because Blissey walls all special and if it carries Flamethrower, it 2 hit koes (although that becomes Chandelure/Heatran powerup so more likely it'll do the other) or it can paralyze potentially or at least wear you down fast with Seismic Toss.

 

[Elentiya]

If Venusaur is Mixed, it's carrying EQ and will OHKO Heatran.
If Venusaur is all-Special, it's probably carrying Sleep Powder and will just put Heatran to sleep.

Heatran is a terrible "counter" to Venusaur.

For your first point, you can just give Venusaur an Air Balloon to make it immune to Earthquake. For your second point, you can get Venusaur to put another Pokemon on your team to sleep if and then bring out Heatran to kill Venusaur.

 

[X5Dragon]

D-Nite is a great Sun counter with lum berry.

 

[tocador]

Anyone know what all the rottoms lately are running? I've seen to be running in alot of WoW/V-swtich/Hidro/HP fire rottoms that are not carrying choice/lefties. Was there a increase on Expert Belt rotoms-w recently? Or what items are they running?

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Anyone know what all the rottoms lately are running? I've seen to be running in alot of WoW/V-swtich/Hidro/HP fire rottoms that are not carrying choice/lefties. Was there a increase on Expert Belt rotoms-w recently? Or what items are they running?

The most popular variant would be Choice Scarf w/ Hidden Power Ice due to its usage on Apocalypse teams and the gained popularity of Adamant Dragonite (meaning Rotom-W only has to use the Modest nature to go for the OHKO on Scizor and neutral Dragonite.

As for the expert belt Rotom-W you mentioned, I've seen once or twice, but they end up losing health far too easily. This makes for a rather good lure, however (what is Hidden Power Fire doing there?).

 

[Fluffy Otters]

The sole purpose for Hp Fire is Ferrothorn most likely (and should you ever see it Rotom-C although Ice hits that as well). I can't imagine any other reason for it.

I don't know why anyone would run Expert Belt on Rotom for that matter. That's just stupid when Choice Specs/Scarf/Lefties are overall better.

 

[SlimMan]

For your first point, you can just give Venusaur an Air Balloon to make it immune to Earthquake. For your second point, you can get Venusaur to put another Pokemon on your team to sleep if and then bring out Heatran to kill Venusaur.

1) Air Balloon Heatran doesn't counter Venusaur though, because it cannot switch in (if it gets hit on the switch-in Venusaur is free to EQ). It's a hella good Venusaur check, but a counter has to be able to switch-in risk free.

2) If your opponent knows that Heatran is your best Venusaur check, they won't waste Sleep Powder on something else.

 

[Elentiya]

1) Air Balloon Heatran doesn't counter Venusaur though, because it cannot switch in (if it gets hit on the switch-in Venusaur is free to EQ). It's a hella good Venusaur check, but a counter has to be able to switch-in risk free.

2) If your opponent knows that Heatran is your best Venusaur check, they won't waste Sleep Powder on something else.

Hmm, good points. Well, you could always use Dugtrio to trap and kill Ninetales and then bring in your own weather starter that's not Ninetales to keep Venusaur from getting its Speed boost.

 

[Suburvia]

Hmm, good points. Well, you could always use Dugtrio to trap and kill Ninetales and then bring in your own weather starter that's not Ninetales to keep Venusaur from getting its Speed boost.

That's needlessly complex for just stopping Venusaur. Obviously if you have Dugtrio, your priority is going to be killing the opponent's Ninetales regardless of whether they have Venusaur or not. Not to mention the fact that your strategy requires your own weather starter, and a very specific chain of events that could easily be disrupted.

And, in the end, as good as Venusaur sounds on paper, it rarely ends up being threatening. Even with the Growth boost it's rarely powerful enough to do significant damage, especially with low base power moves, low attacking stats, and the necessary investment in speed. Not to mention four moveslot syndrome; he's always hard-stopped by something, unlike several of the metagame's other threats.

You can claim his coverage is good all you want, but really, if your team is weak to Venusaur, of all things, you probably have broader issues to fix.

 

[Razza]

D-Nite is a great Sun counter with lum berry.

Dragonite is NOT a sun counter, saying one mon counters an entire playstyle is ridiculous. Dragonite can check chlorophyll sweepers and many other mons seen on common sun teams thanks to multiscale and his resistances.
A good sun offense team shouldn't be losing more than 1 mon to dragonite unless it is under dual screens.
In fact bulky sun teams like the one used by ziah, have things like Slowbro and mamoswine and don't have a particularly hard time dealing with dnite although it is a threat that can sweep teams regardless of playstyle given the chance.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Hmm, good points. Well, you could always use Dugtrio to trap and kill Ninetales and then bring in your own weather starter that's not Ninetales to keep Venusaur from getting its Speed boost.

Are we assuming that everyone carries a Dugtrio and Politoed/Tyranitar on their team or did I miss something here O.o

And, in the end, as good as Venusaur sounds on paper, it rarely ends up being threatening. Even with the Growth boost it's rarely powerful enough to do significant damage, especially with low base power moves, low attacking stats, and the necessary investment in speed. Not to mention four moveslot syndrome; he's always hard-stopped by something, unlike several of the metagame's other threats.

You can claim his coverage is good all you want, but really, if your team is weak to Venusaur, of all things, you probably have broader issues to fix.

Well Growth doubles both Attack and Sp.Att in the sun instead of the plus one boost it would normally get. Therefore boosting its stats from mediocre to dangerously threatening in the sun. I mean if you really want to push it here, Venasaur only needs a tiny 8EVs invested in speed to outrun the high majority of OU mons in sun (excluding Scarfed revenge killers ofc.) But we only need enough EVs in attack to OHKO Heatran with EQ so the rest can nicely go towards speed EVs. Thus Venasaur fairly easily obtain - 334 attack/ 490 sp.att/ 478speed (after one growth) and that's not even carrying Life Orb x.x. Sure it's going to be walled by something, but of course you see a Dragonite on team preview and any good player is not going to set up a Growth and try to sweep until that Dragonite is down. Let's be realistic here people. We don't try to sweep with a Pokemon when we are fully aware there's a Pokemon that completely walls us right around the corner. We aim to take down the biggest threats to our team team first and then once the timing is right, we proceed to go in for the sweep. Yes, Venasaur is a late game sweeper - it is walled by the select few counters but once that's out of the way what's stopping you?

EDIT: Furthermore let's not forget Venasaur is just one Pokemon on that opponent's Drought team. Meaning that he has 4 other Pokemon (if you don't include Ninetales) to play around with.

Ps. It's not set in stone that you need to use all Grass/Fire Pokemon in a Drought team, they can use other types too >.>

 

[alphatron]

Venusaur doesn't need to run hp fire on a sun team.

You're running a sun team, meaning that you probably have 3-4 pokemon who can take care of steels anyway and that isn't even counting Ninetales. Aside from heatran, (who can only check you if it has a balloon), the steels being used in this metagame are all defensive and don't pose all that much of a threat. There's also the fact that most players will assume that you are running hp fire and will avoid bringing in their steels to stop you right away. There's nothing wrong with running hp fire on venusaur if you're running a growth sweep set (as heatran and blissey are the only counters to his standard moveset. Everytthing else in OU is dead once he actually uses growth save for those who outspeed him. And in the DW tier where Venu can use giga drain, blissey doesn't do a dang thing). But if venusaur isn't your only sweeper, use him as bait. I for one, prefer luring in heatran with venusaur and picking him off so that volcorona can sweep. This also gives me an overall better teamslot than dugtrio too.

And yes, sun doesn't hve to run only grass/fire pokemon. When it comes out, I'm definitely running a keldeo to laugh at tyranitar and friends. Before he got banned, a garchomp with fire fang, earthquake, sword's dance, and outrage got STAB on all of his attacks. Salamence can now ohko gliscor with fire blast and doesn't have to run draco meteor to crush physical walls.

 

[JellyOs]

If you're running Venasaur it's most likely that the team will have support for such, like Heatran. In fact, I've seen a few Rotom-H's on sun teams because they handle Heatran quite well and work with HP Ice. One thing I'd like to discuss is Rapid Spin for sun. There's a serious lack of viable spinners (i.e. not Torkoal) for sun teams. I really don't know which to run

 

[Pocket]

Cloyster is a solid Sun Rapid Spinner, since it deals with problematic threats, particularly dragon mons like Dragonite, Haxorus, and Latias. Donphan is another solid Rapid Spinner in a Drought team, imo, thanks to its Sturdy Ability and its great physical defense and offense. It's a solid answer to Tyranitar and Terrakion. Donphan also has Odor Sleuth to reliably Rapid Spin through Ghosts, which may be crucial if you need the Rocks off for Volcarona.

 

[alphatron]

The spinners that you would use for other teams can spin for sun teams as well. I was never too keen on cloyster as a spinner since its weak to all hazards and is 2hko'd by CB Dragonite outrage even when running max hp and defense with an impish nature. That and its weak to rock.

Donphan and forry are my favorites. Hitmontop is good too as he gets foresight.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

How interesting, I heard Deoxys-S is going to get banned today.

How do you feel about this and how will it change the meta?

 

[Taylor]

expect a thread to follow soon but yeah, deo-s has been banned from standard ou. five trustworthy and dedicated members of the community, between them, were strongly favouring ou and thus, we dont have to deal with him for much longer.

st8 will likely keep him ou for the first round or so, but then he is toast.

 

[mazzulmaz]

I basically have 2 things to say here:

1: What´s up with the new tiering system? Claiming that it won´t cut off the community is just soft talk and we all know that that is not the case. I´m sure they will put our opinions into their judging, but they need to look at the tier from an objective perspective, and with all respect, that is impossible, since it´s simply a human nature that people favor their own tastes above others. There are many good players here that have an equally knowledge of the metagame, or even better, then the mods here. People should NOT be cut out of this and the voting system was way better imo.

2: Banning Deo-s sucks. Smogon has been quite ban-happy lately, but the point is that using Dual Screens Deoxys was quite a good way to fight against sun or rain teams, since it nullifies their damage boosts. Banning Deo-s will make the metagame more boring then it already is, since weather teams are now the only viable option of standing a chance against other weather teams. If we keep banning like this, we also get to ban things like Terrakion. Excadrill could check Terrakion, Garchomp was a threat to it, Thundurus could switch into CC and KO it with a Focus Blast, etc. The only thing that is not 2HKO´d if it is at +2 is Quagsire.

Please do not ban Deoxys-s.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

I basically have 2 things to say here:

1: What´s up with the new tiering system? Claiming that it won´t cut off the community is just soft talk and we all know that that is not the case. I´m sure they will put our opinions into their judging, but they need to look at the tier from an objective perspective, and with all respect, that is impossible, since it´s simply a human nature that people favor their own tastes above others. There are many good players here that have an equally knowledge of the metagame, or even better, then the mods here. People should NOT be cut out of this and the voting system was way better imo.

2: Banning Deo-s sucks. Smogon has been quite ban-happy lately, but the point is that using Dual Screens Deoxys was quite a good way to fight against sun or rain teams, since it nullifies their damage boosts. Banning Deo-s will make the metagame more boring then it already is, since weather teams are now the only viable option of standing a chance against other weather teams. If we keep banning like this, we also get to ban things like Terrakion. Excadrill could check Terrakion, Garchomp was a threat to it, Thundurus could switch into CC and KO it with a Focus Blast, etc. The only thing that is not 2HKO´d if it is at +2 is Quagsire.

Please do not ban Deoxys-s.

technically speaking things like CB Conkeldurr don't really care if its 2hko'd since it OHKOs back with mach punch

 

[mazzulmaz]

technically speaking things like CB Conkeldurr don't really care if its 2hko'd since it OHKOs back with mach punch

Yeah, but the point is he can only do it once. If Terrakion switches out and later sets up SD against something else, Conkelderp cant switch in again, so it´s only a check.