Grass Knot or Energy Ball?

[GG Crono]

Both are seen as very viable moves for any Grass-type that needs a good STABby punch. But which do you all prefer?

Grass Knot is potentially stronger, and has a lot more PP, and a lot of the things that grass is typically used to do away with, like rock and ground types, are pretty heavy.

On the other hand, Energy Ball is more consistent, and surpasses Grass Knot on the first few weight categories, being beaten only on things that weigh over 200 lbs, and is overall more versatile. Not to mention the Sp Def lowering, for how often that makes a difference.

So, what are the thoughts of the community on this matter?

 

[RaikouLover]

There have been many threads on this already. In fact, X-Act did a numerical analysis that said in OU the average base power of grass knot IS about the same as Energy Ball. However, I think that may change when Manaphy becomes tested. Personally, I prefer Leafstorm. Grass Knot is probably better on most Grass Pokemon, but Ludicolo likes Energy Ball more, since most things that are hit super effective by the grass attack dies to Surf, and Vaporeon is a pain the ass.

 

[Dexterity]

Here's x-act's thread from before
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42308

In OU, I would only really consider energy ball for vaporeon. Grass knot is probably better for all the key, heavyweight OUs such as gyarados and tyranitar.

 

[GG Crono]

I see. Well, pardon my ignorance, and thank you for the prompt replies. :)

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

I just want to add one thing to this.

According to X-Act's Type Coverage Worksheet:

From a Grass type with 236 SpA (i.e. most Celebi)...

Grass Knot will inflict 29.78% on average.
Energy Ball will inflict 30.34% on average.

I would still use Grass Knot, though, considering the desired targets of your Grass attacks.

 

[Thorns]

Depends what Pokemon you're using it on.

A sweeper like Roserade wants Energy Ball for the potential SDef drop, and anything you switch it in on should be severely hurt by either move, but if you're intent on sweeping.

Leaf Storm is good for a one-off powerful hit.

Celebi, a generally defensive Pokemon, wants Grass Knot for the extra PP and the chance to kill things like Gyarados.

 

[Syberia]

Grass Knot in OU, Energy Ball in UU. Energy Ball during the Manaphy test phase, definitely.

Unless you're using it as the primary STAB attack on a Grass-type sweeper (in which case you'd be using Seed Flare), you're probably using your Grass-type attack to hit specific targets for super-effective damage. Most Ground, Rock, and Water-types are heavy (bar Vaporeon, who's just a dick), so Grass Knot should end up doing more damage against the targets you'll actually be using it against.

 

[Scofield]

If you're using it on a pokemon that needs an attack to hit water types for super effective in ou (think infernape) then grass knot is preferred. If you're using it on a sweeper where it's their best stab move which they use to hit things neutral (think roserade) then energy ball is preferred. Some people do prefer grass knot in that case, since they don't want to stay in unless they have a super effective hit anyways but the way I see it, that just limits their options (think celebi versus azelf).

 

[X-Act]

As COTH's post says, Grass Knot and Energy Ball basically deal the same amount of damage on average in Standard. Hence it's just a matter of personal preference in that metagame.

In UU, Energy Ball deals 27.64% to Grass Knot's 23.66%, so Energy Ball is significantly better here. We're talking a 4HKO as opposed to a 5HKO on average.

In Ubers, Energy Ball deals 20.84% to Grass Knot's 24%, so Grass Knot is significantly better than Energy Ball in Ubers.

So my advice would be:

• Energy Ball is better in UU
• Grass Knot is better in Ubers
• They're evenly matched in Standard.

 

[cim]

They're evenly matched if you're using it against everything in the metagame. Generally, though, one uses a Grass attack for Gyarados, Tyranitar, Swampert, or other things like them, so Grass Knot is usually better. Of course, it all depends on the role the Pokémon serves.

 

[Jenigmat]

I tend to only use Grass attacks on pokemon either weak to it or on Gyarados, as Grass's piss poor coverage isn't something you want to spam, and if I do spam a Grass attack, it'll be Seed Flare, not either GK or EB. The only times I'd use Energy Ball is if you don't lose out on a KO/2HKO on TTar/Gyarados/Milotic/etc. and if the pokemon is going to be in long enough to potentially benefit from any Sp. Def. drops or if the pokemon will be in long enough to hit many non-fat pokemon. In the current metagame Energy Ball is hitting what, Vaporeon?

 

[RaikouLover]

Hitting Vaporeon is justification enough, especially in the scenario I described with Ludicolo. Since it has Surf to manhandle grounds, Energy Ball is strictly for water types and happesn to 2HKO Suicune, Vaporeon, Milotic, AND Gyarados. In that case, I think it is the superior option.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Well... it all depends on what you want to kill, not just the average damage.

Vaporeon isn't going to be running any SDef boosting surprises most likely, but on the other hand many Suicunes run Calm Mind and you would naturally want to get rid of it as soon as possible, so it would not pose a threat to your team.

Also, GK has twice as much PP as Energy Ball and Ubers and to a lesser extent OU have a number of Pressure pokémon that'll just eat away at that PP. So, yeah I would stick to GK in those metagames.

When Manaphy testing comes around that'll be fun to see how much the usages will shift though.

 

[Vaevictus_Asmadi]

I'm gonna have to agree with Syberia:
Grass Knot in OU, Energy Ball in UU.

 

[Sixonesix]

Taking only OU into account, I'd use Grass Knot if I have more than one attacking move on my grass type pokemon, and Energy Ball if it's the only attacking move. I believe if you have to choose one attacking move, to go with the one that hits decently all around (and has a small chance of hax).

 

[Cynthia]

If you're using Grass as a STAB move (and not using Leaf Storm/ Seed Flare), go for Energy Ball. Using Grass Knot means you're running the risk of being walled by things like Weavile and Azelf which just sucks.

Energy Ball is just superior overall in UU since there aren't many heavy Pokemon, don't forget the chance for a spdef drop either. Grass Knot is mainly useful in Standard for hitting Gyarados, Tyranitar, and other heavy Pokemon that deal with your STAB attacks, although you lose damage on things like Vaporeon.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Amusing note, Cynthia. Grass Knot hits for 80 BP on Weavile, so really, the pixies are the only reason to use Energy Ball over Grass Knot on a sweeper, and given how most Azelf are suicide leads nowadays, the likelihood of a pixie interrupting your sweep is minimal.

 

[1234gjy]

Grass knot is for walls, as it goes up against heavy threats and energy ball for sweepers for the steady damage.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Weight_______Base Power

Under 22lbs_________20

22.1lbs – 55lbs ______40

55.1lbs – 110lbs _____60

110.1lbs – 220lbs ____80

220.1lbs – 440lbs____100

440lbs +___________120


Pretty terrible table I know, but I thought it might be of some value to this thread.

These are the BP values of Grass Knot in OU:

Aerodactyl - 80
Alakazam - 60
Azelf - 20
Blissey - 60
Breloom - 60
Bronzong - 100
Celebi - 20
Cresselia - 80
Donphan - 100
Dragonite - 120
Dugtrio - 60
Dusknoir - 100
Electivire - 100
Forretress - 100
Gallade - 80
Gengar - 60
Gliscor - 60
Gyarados - 120
Heatran - 120
Heracross - 60
Hippowdon - 120
Infernape - 80
Jirachi - 20
Jolteon - 40
Kingdra - 100
Lucario - 80
Machamp - 100
Magnezone - 100
Mamoswine - 120
Metagross - 120
Ninjask - 40
Porygon-Z - 60
Rotom-H - 20
Rotom-W - 20
Salamence - 100
Scizor - 100
Shaymin-S - 20
Skarmory - 80
Snorlax – 120
Starmie - 80
Suicune - 100
Swampert - 80
Tentacruel - 80
Togekiss - 60
Tyranitar - 120
Vaporeon - 60
Weavile - 60
Yanmega - 80
Zapdos - 80

Grass Knot's mean power in OU: 77.6
Energy Ball's power is of course: 80

However, when you consider the pokemon you will most likely be using Grass Knot against:

Donphan - 100
Gliscor - 60
Gyarados - 120
Hippowdon - 120
Kingdra - 100
Mamoswine - 120
Starmie - 80
Suicune - 100
Swampert - 80
Tentacruel - 80
Tyranitar - 120
Vaporeon - 60

You can see that with the exception of Gliscor and Vaporeon, every pokemon you usually use a Grass attack against takes equal or more damage from Grass Knot that they do from Energy Ball. I think being able to hit Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Gyarados and Mamoswine with a base 120 move is definitely better than Energy Ball's meagre 80, so that is why I think Grass Knot > Energy Ball in OU.

LR.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Did you consider that he might haven taken into account the pokémon's usage?

 

[Legacy Raider]

No, I didn't. But now that you mention it, I can see that I made a mistake in assuming it would skew the results. I've edited the bit about X-Act's calculator out of my post, but I still think the table and the BPs for OU pokemon are useful.

LR.

 

[RaikouLover]

In the sake of Jumpman's popular consistent damage argument, I would still prefer Energy Ball in most instances. Then again, think of the Pokemon using Grass Knot anyway, and their better options:

Sceptile: Leafstorm / Leaf Blade
Roserade: Leafstorm
Celebi: Offensive uses Leafstorm, defensive should use Grass Knot*
Ludicolo: Surf
Shaymin-S: Seed Flare / Leafstorm
Shaymin-L: Seed Flare
Breloom: Seed Bomb
Cacturne: Seed Bomb
Abomasnow: Blizzard / Wood Hammer

Infernape (has no other options)
Empoleon (has no other options)

Then, you see that unSTABed pokemon are going to be the ones using Grass Knot anyway since every grass pokemon really has a better move to be using. I mention Surf and Blizzard since they have nearly identical coverage in the way of grounds.

 

[Eternal]

Weight_______Base Power

Under 22lbs_________20

22.1lbs – 55lbs ______40

55.1lbs – 110lbs _____60

110.1lbs – 220lbs ____80

220.1lbs – 440lbs____100

440lbs +___________120


Pretty terrible table I know, but I thought it might be of some value to this thread.

These are the BP values of Grass Knot in OU:

Aerodactyl - 80
Alakazam - 60
Azelf - 20
Blissey - 60
Breloom - 60
Bronzong - 100
Celebi - 20
Cresselia - 80
Donphan - 100
Dragonite - 120
Dugtrio - 60
Dusknoir - 100
Electivire - 100
Forretress - 100
Gallade - 80
Gengar - 60
Gliscor - 60
Gyarados - 120
Heatran - 120
Heracross - 60
Hippowdon - 120
Infernape - 80
Jirachi - 20
Jolteon - 40
Kingdra - 100
Lucario - 80
Machamp - 100
Magnezone - 100
Mamoswine - 120
Metagross - 120
Ninjask - 40
Porygon-Z - 60
Rotom-H - 20
Rotom-W - 20
Salamence - 100
Scizor - 100
Shaymin-S - 20
Skarmory - 80
Snorlax – 120
Starmie - 80
Suicune - 100
Swampert - 80
Tentacruel - 80
Togekiss - 60
Tyranitar - 120
Vaporeon - 60
Weavile - 60
Yanmega - 80
Zapdos - 80

Grass Knot's mean power in OU: 77.6
Energy Ball's power is of course: 80

However, when you consider the pokemon you will most likely be using Grass Knot against:

Donphan - 100
Gliscor - 60
Gyarados - 120
Hippowdon - 120
Kingdra - 100
Mamoswine - 120
Starmie - 80
Suicune - 100
Swampert - 80
Tentacruel - 80
Tyranitar - 120
Vaporeon - 60

You can see that with the exception of Gliscor and Vaporeon, every pokemon you usually use a Grass attack against takes equal or more damage from Grass Knot that they do from Energy Ball. I think being able to hit Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Gyarados and Mamoswine with a base 120 move is definitely better than Energy Ball's meagre 80, so that is why I think Grass Knot > Energy Ball in OU.

LR.

Thanks for this information. I always wondered how much Grass Knot has an effect in comparison to other Pokemons. Since I am more concerned with threats like Gyarados and Suicune in OU, I'd go with Grass Knot.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Thing about grass knot is that a lot of non-grass pokemon learn it. That more than its mechanics give it value in my opinion.

Overall though I would almost always pick energy ball myself given the choice. Vaporeon is that much of a bitch.

 

[goldemblem]

I am really split in these thread, but when playing shoddy I usually use Grass Knot but, i agree vaporeon is a pain in the ass, but in my opinion it's not that much a pain to justify the use of Energy Ball, i would rather take Tyranitars, Hippowdons and the likes with a 120 Grass Knot than having to deal with them with a weaker move just because i am afraid of Vapy