1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. Welcome to the Orange Islands! Please remember to read the rules. Come chat with us on our IRC channel and enjoy your stay!
  3. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

GSC In-Game Tiers Revamp

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Ender, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,015
    I would add the following to Bottom mostly due to poor availability:

    Electabuzz
    Cubone
    Kangaskhan
    Mr. Mime
    Porygon
    Grimer
    Larvitar
    Chansey
    Aerodactyl
    Diglett
    Pikachu
    Clefairy

    And these could probably go Low:

    Snorlax
    Lugia (G)
    Ho-Oh (S)

    These 3 are late arrivals but are better than the rest of Kanto because of their catch levels.

    Not sure what to do with Houndour. My instinct is to go Bottom but there was some talk about putting it higher because its typing gives it convenient match-ups...
  2. Lestrade

    Lestrade

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    New poster here, trying to figure out if I'm doing this right, but Krabby is available at Olivine City and makes good use of its attack and defense to be an interesting choice. Lack of special attack stat is a shame due to his special at-the-time signature move, but is enough to deal with geodude... since that's apparently a huge issue (I guess in like victory road? Are wild pokemon considered? Because not a lot of trainers have rock types in general. Union cave is maybe the place in Johto that actually has rock pokemon that you're required to deal with, but I digress). It evolves at a pretty decent level that isn't too long after you catch it, so it's a great powerhouse at that stage in the game. It doesn't have much for speed, and therefore gets its ass handed to it by many electric types despite having moves to fight them. It's not the best, but I wouldn't call it useless. If I had to give it a judgement I'd put it optimistically at mid tier.

    EDIT: Oh, right Gym Leaders. It doesn't do well against Jasmine or Morty, but otherwise... I mean... It's got a big claw and a resistance to water (which is the issue with Chuck, Pryce and Claire (to an extent)). So it gets the job done?
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  3. hinode

    hinode

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    172
    The Nidorans should only be high tier in Crystal, where you can get a Moon Stone after gym 4 instead of waiting until Tohjo Falls. That's not quite as bad as waiting for Kanto like the elemental stones, but it still leaves Nidorino/a as clear liabilities for the second half of Johto.
  4. Stalfos

    Stalfos
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    259
    nope. tauros's options for physical coverage are:

    -rock smash (lol)
    -iron tail (subpar coverage and shit accuracy but it's not a horrible option i guess)
    -earthquake (great; ground coverage on normal-types is amazing in this game, since rock, steel, and the only ghost-types that any trainer actually uses are all weak to it. too bad you don't get it until victory road)

    it can run surf to hit gravelers i guess, but with base 40 special attack it can only use it to hit 4x weaknesses.

    yeah, i haven't tested it enough, but i'm not completely sold on tauros in high yet, though i'm not 100% against it yet either. it is fast and good a throwing out powerful stab moves. at the very least, i think tauros should be in the same tier as (if not a tier lower than) crystal teddiursa, which trades speed for availability, higher attack, dig (this is huge; like i said, ground coverage on normal-types is amazing in this game), and a special attack stat that actually makes special coverage a sort of usable option (along with the elemental punches).

    really? i mean yeah it has super-effective stab against the two gyms right next to it, but i'm not sure how any convenient match-ups can compensate for the fact that you get it mid-kanto at like level 15

    nah, the moon stone in tohjo falls is before the waterfall. you can go there and get it as soon as you beat morty.
  5. Ender

    Ender meteoric
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    253
    Updated

    Changes:
    • Moved Tauros to mid
    • Added atsync's bottom and low list
    • Added Suicune (GS) and other legendary dogs to bottom
    • Houndour should still go in bottom because of it's level so late in the game
    • Added Krabby, Scizor, and Magikarp to low
    • Added Phanpy (C) to mid
    • Added Magmar (C) and Teddiursa (GS) to bottom
    I also think it might be beneficial to change to an S,A,B,C,D,E ranking system rather than Top, High, etc since everything is "viable" to some extent in-game and I don't want to stigmatize Pokemon by saying "oh it's only low so it clearly sucks and you should never use it" rather than implying "it's worse than these Pokemon" and nothing else. I mean, no one is going to use it, but it reduces a little of the "suck" stigma regardless. It also seems to be how competitive tiers are being ranked now. Finally, we may need to make a tier that splits off of high, either above or below, since we seem to have a few questionables that could go either way and might be better in an in-between tier rather than relegating them to one or the other if they're dubious.

    I was thinking that perhaps

    S = Top
    A = High
    B = Upper Mid
    C = Lower Mid
    D = Low
    E = Bottom

    Could work, or if we don't want to split mid, we could just use S through D and have E be unranked. Or if we don't want to use letters and stick with Top, etc, I'm fine with that too. Let me know what you think.

    Top:
    Abra
    Totodile
    Lugia (S)
    Ho-Oh (G)
    Suicune (C)
    Magmar (GS)

    High:
    Red Gyarados
    Geodude
    Cyndaquil
    Miltank
    Vaporeon (C)
    Lapras
    Mareep (GS)
    Nidoran M
    Nidoran F

    Mid:
    Tauros
    Spearow
    Sudowoodo
    Chinchou
    Gastly (Trade)
    Psyduck
    Tentacool
    Poliwag
    Growlithe (C)
    Teddiursa (C)
    Phanpy (C)
    Chickorita
    Onix (Trade)
    Rattata
    Skarmory
    Jynx

    Low:
    Onix (No Trade)
    Scyther
    Scizor
    Pidgey
    Hoothoot
    Krabby
    Sentret
    Drowzee
    Swinub
    Dratini
    Pinsir
    Gastly (No Trade)
    Lugia (GC)
    Ho-Oh (S)
    Magikarp

    Bottom:
    Houndour
    Ho-Oh (C)
    Delibird
    Ditto
    Hoppip
    Ledyba
    Misdreavus
    Murkrow
    Shuckle
    Slugma
    Smeargle
    Togepi
    Unown
    Spinarak
    Caterpie
    Weedle
    Gligar
    Sneasel
    Electabuzz
    Cubone
    Kangaskhan
    Mr. Mime
    Porygon
    Grimer
    Larvitar
    Chansey
    Aerodactyl
    Diglett
    Pikachu
    Clefairy
    Raikou
    Entei
    Suicune (GS)
    Magmar (C)
    Teddiursa (GS)
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  6. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    With Exp Share, Houndour can catch up with the party if you do Sabrina first, then by the time you're in Saffron he's close to the party in levels. Tutoring Flamethrower was a good decision on my run and by the time I faced Erika and Janine he was tearing things apart better than my higher-levelled team mates. I would expect the same of GS Electabuzz though I have no clue where you catch one. I think they should be in Low, while Lax/legends go up to Mid.

    Tauros's main advantage over Miltank is that great attack stat. 100 vs 80 is a big difference. I strongly disagree that Shadow Ball matters enough to warrant a tier difference, considering you get the TM after Morty, by which point very few ghosts still remain. Psychics are struck hard enough with STAB normal-type moves. What would hit harder - Miltank's Shadow Ball or Tauros's Thrash? Guys like atsync know where to run the calculations, but I'm not well-versed in that. Either way, Tauros is in most cases preferred to Miltank.

    I think in general normal-types are being underestimated here. You get TMs like Swift, Headbutt, Return and Strength throughout the game when other types barely get anything, and they're more than enough to OHKO the scrubby trainer types while dealing nicely with the major battles too. Somebody like Ursaring (Crystal) has a humongous attack stat and sp. atk. that's the same as Nidoqueen's (who gets neither Dig nor Sludge Bomb this gen) for punches of the same power (but no Surf), except Nidoqueen isn't using Returns off 130 base attack (which actually means that it would rather use Return even if the elemental punch is penetrating a double weakness). Ursaring also gets Dig, so it's good against Morty, magnets and many other things.

    Again, Scyther shouldn't be near something like tradeless Onix (who has 45 base attack...). Base stats are too good, availability is very good and it can sweep later on.

    Then there's Top Tier where I'm having trouble justifying the presence of anything that isn't Totodile and Abra. Magmar is a glass cannon, great with the dualpunching when you first get it, but it does little of note in the E4 and can't help against Lance at all (Hyper Beam would OHKO it most likely and it's not OHKOing Gyarados with TP considering I failed to achieve the same with Electabuzz on my recent Crystal run). I think his performance is about equivalent to Cyndaquil and both should be in High - Cyndaquil has availability (where it isn't exactly a superhero however) and better bulk when fully evolved.

    Ho-Oh, Suicune and Lugia miss out on about half of the game and are notoriously difficult to catch (especially the fliers with Recover); are you sure they deserve to be in Top? They're also above average at attacking (Ho-Oh and Lugia run out of PP for their moves really quickly) functioning mainly as tanks, and I don't see why we'd choose Suicune over a water with better availability and indeed moveset (like Golduck who swims about pre-evolved or Poliwag who shares availability with Caterpies and Weedles). Ho-Oh and Lugia are also pretty dependent on the TMs you teach them.

    Concerning tiers, I think Upper Mid should be introduced because Chinchou can't be in the same tier as Chikorita (stuck with Razor Leaf for so long). Actually I think current High could be merged with current Mid because the Pokemon are too similar (Geodude vs Sudowoodo for example) and because too many Pokemon currently in Low are really good when used (Scyther, Krabby, Pidgey, I would also add Koffing who can be caught evolved as early as Magmar in GS).
  7. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,612
    Yeah, Onix + Scyther/Scizor in the same tier is really dumb. The question would be "should Onix move down, or should the bugs move up", since it's pretty obvious that the bugs do have their own strengths. Onix's real contribution is to facewall until Whitney's Miltank. What we need to establish here is "is Onix's tanking with his amazing defense during the first 3 gyms as significant as Scyther/Scizor's ability to sweep trainers lategame?", which we can modify to "is earlygame really that big compared to lategame?". Personally, I'm on the fence. I initially argued High for Geodude, who is pretty much an Onix clone earlygame with slightly better offenses. However, Geodude's other attributes, Magnitude STAB / boom utility gives Onix a shot for its money, neither of which Onix is realistically going to be able to obtain (lol mudslap, dig isn't exactly free game either) as quickly as Geodude (and in the case of the latter, never).

    Scyther/Scizor could possibly warrant a rise in tiers, but I still don't see them in High, especially when they're getting walled rather easily by ghosts, rocks and steels. Sure, the bugs get away with Steel Wing, but it's not the solution to everything, especially when it comes in fucking Kanto.

    Lastly, what's Hoothoot doing in Low o_______________O it's stuck with Peck/Fly and Swift/Take Down/Return for most of the game, and if Hoothoot being in Low is because of Hypnosis I'd rather have Hoppip up there instead. I don't think I need to explain this part >.>"

    GS Magmar... tough call. 100 SpA is very good for that point of the game, and Magmar has instant ThunderPunch access, which is needless to say, amazing. I'm really tempted to go top on this, but idk (I've only played Crystal, so yeah :X)
  8. Ender

    Ender meteoric
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    253
    So again, why not split mid to lower and upper mid, then put onix in low, chinchou in upper mid, scyther/scizor in lower mid, and hoothoot in bottom.

    Will that fix people's immediate issues?
  9. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    I think that's not addressing the specific issues people have concerning each of the Pokemon users may have brought up, but yeah, you definitely should add more tiers and tier more Pokemon that are present in the game.

    I would say there is barely any visible gap between High and Mid tiers as of now (needs a merge), while the difference between somebody like Abra and somebody like Magmar is pretty big.

    Hoothoot is better than Hoppip for actually being able to fight for itself. It's nothing fantastic, but STAB Returns do the job even with a low attack base while Hoppip's never going to be OHKOing anything besides occasional rock/grounds.
  10. Ender

    Ender meteoric
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    253
    I'm not addressing specific issues right now because I'm on my phone, but if we're going to change tier labels or add tiers, we need to do that before deciding where to place certain Pokemon.
  11. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,612
    I was actually just bringing up points that I feel could potentially justify Hoothoot's low position, because regardless of how I see it this thing is a pretty clear bottom. Its better special attack stat is barely even touched until Confusion at an amazing L41 -.-"

    Personally, on the issue of Top guys, I feel we should probably go by this:

    Sure, Totodile and Kadabra can break the game by themselves, but we also need to give credit to dudes who have that power/utility to remain useful for a sizable portion of the game. This includes the mascots, Red Gyarados, GS Magmar and maybe Cyndaquil. It's like saying that "Sain/Kent sucks because Marcus breaks FE7 on his own anyway", that's not really accurate since Sain/Kent are useful units throughout FE7. The other 4 guys in top, as well as Red Gyara, are all useful from the get-go and can wreck face anyway with mooks.

    On an analysis on the current top tier guys,
    Totodile / Abra - these are no contest, guaranteed top.
    Mascots - Have amazing power from the get-go. Ho-oh is probably worst off due to no Surf, but still useful simply by how absurdly versatile Sacred Fire can be.
    Magmar - 100 SpA is considered at the upper end of offense, especially when you have this right before the 4th gym. Fire/Electric is useful immediate coverage.

    In addition, things like Red Gyarados are also top-worthy: comes overlevelled (if you go immediately), HM utility, STAB Surf, good bulk, etc. Sure, it's got its own problems, compared to Totodile, but it's still an excellent choice for a team member.
  12. Tomy

    Tomy

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2013
    Messages:
    49
    I don't see Wooper in the list. I used it and I wasn't dissapointed. It learns (STAB) Earthquake by itself , STAB Surf, good typing (there aren't that many problematic grass type pokemon), and has acceptable stats. Upper Mid perhaps? (because yeah, splitting Mid seems a good solution).
  13. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,612
    not all the pokemon are listed, only those that were discussed earlier. wooper's definitely one of the better off water types anyway, electric immune is useful and nobody cares about giga drain when nobody uses giga drain
  14. Ender

    Ender meteoric
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    253
    I would be okay with moving Red Gyara to top.

    If we're going to split Mid, how is this for an initial skeleton? I feel like this is pretty fair.
    Also added Woooper.

    Upper Mid (B):
    Tauros
    Spearow
    Sudowoodo
    Chinchou
    Gastly (Trade)
    Psyduck
    Poliwag
    Growlithe (C)
    Teddiursa (C)
    Chickorita
    Jynx
    Wooper

    Lower Mid [C]:
    Scyther
    Scizor
    Tentacool
    Onix (Trade)
    Phanpy (C)
    Skarmory
    Drowzee
    Rattata

    Low [D]:
    Onix (No Trade)
    Pidgey
    Hoothoot (potential move to bottom)
    Krabby
    Sentret
    Swinub
    Dratini
    Pinsir
    Gastly (No Trade)
    Lugia (GC)
    Ho-Oh (S)
    Magikarp
  15. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,015
    I've just remembered that Cubone is a prize at the Goldenrod Game Corner in Crystal, so that will probably need a split entry (Crystal Cubone would surely be above Bottom). Sorry for overlooking that!

    Also, the Teddiursa (GS) entry in Bottom should be Teddiursa (G), since it can't be obtained in Silver.
  16. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,612
    There's also Wobbuffet, who also sees a significant increase in availability in C. Not sure if this will help it though...
  17. Lestrade

    Lestrade

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    I'm a little unsure of what the first post means by "effective run," so I'm probably going to be wrong in this argument to put geodude in the top-mid tier, and my argument is based on its convenient typing and availability in the early stage of the game, but it also grounds itself in the idea that as geodude grows ineffective other options arrive to take its place... and I don't quite understand if that's considered or not. So at the very least it's an early-game top-tier that carries you very nicely into mid-game (about goldenrod/early ecruteak) until you can replace it with something that's available in that area.

    So its effectiveness early game (which I may also misunderstand): Once you catch geodude, you don't need to invest a lot of time before its ready to win against Whitney, is effective against a majority of trainers (rock types in union cave and bellsprout tower being the only unavoidable setbacks) straight through Whitney. After that it's no longer useful, but it gets you to that point where a lot of great options are available.
  18. x42bn6

    x42bn6

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    38
    I think Tentacool should be in upper-mid, at least as good as Poliwag. As a Tentacruel, it hits fairly well on the Special side, and gets STAB Sludge Bomb later on. Besides Twineedle (does anything use this in GSC?), it can't be poisoned, which means it has a good matchup against several Rockets. Its bulk is comparable to Politoed, although Politoed hits harder (Tentacruel's blazing speed is somewhat unnecessary in the end).

    ... Although I guess that this would basically put all the mid-tier Water types in one tier. That said, I don't think that's really wrong, as none of them are really terrible, and Surf makes them all viable.
  19. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,612
    In a sense, we also need to judge the importance of earlygame against others. Earlygame is a royal piece of shit with overpowered threats lurking about (ok, maybe not, though I do remember embarrassing experiences where my Totodile got swept by Bayleef in Azalea, and that's not mentioning things like Miltank and Scyther. Geodude is actually decent enough for High because its utility doesn't really stop after beating Whitney: you have a strong pokemon capable of tanking and dishing hits in the form of Graveler, and with some Mint Berries / Awakenings / hax, can still win Morty because Magnitude is a bro, and when special attacks start showing up everywhere, it functions as a last-minute nuke. Works well imo.
  20. Lestrade

    Lestrade

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    It still sees its uses in ecruteak, but after a while you really just stop using it and since we have a team size of more than 3 in an effective run you're not using geodude against any of the late johto gyms save for Jasmine (and by then you have access to other options that are much more viable in the long run). The last place Graveler finds itself super effective it's lt. surge. Just put that fact where it needs to be, I don't know what to make of it.
  21. x42bn6

    x42bn6

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    38
    Geodude is pretty good against Team Rocket (it beats Zubat, Koffing and Magnemite, and resists most other things). It can also contribute to beating some of Koga and Karen's teams.

    I think the biggest reason why it should be High is the fact that even Graveler has a great Attack stat and it has downright brutal STAB moves: Rock Throw, Magnitude, Rollout and Earthquake. As a Golem, it hits as hard (on the "physical" side) as Typhlosion (on the Special side). Rock + Ground coverage is great competitively, and it's even better in-game because in-game trainers don't prepare for it. Graveler should be able to two-shot anything it should be facing (i.e. not Water and non-existent Grass types). This means it rarely needs to switch out - very good for an "efficient" run - and you can slap STAB Rollout on it and laugh as it Miltanks on autopilot against trainers.

    The Selfdestruct factor is always funny and you can always try to abuse Quick Claw for a quick Selfdestruct on Clair's Kingdra or something. Or just use Thunder Wave support.
  22. Lanturn314

    Lanturn314

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    590
    I'd like to point out that Skarmory can't be obtained without trading in Gold.

    Also:
    Seconding this, while also adding that the level 10 Spearow (whose name is KENYA iirc) you get from the guard on Route 35 is awesome. He's a bit underleveled at first, but he doesn't have your OT number, which means he levels up really fast. And after you catch him up, he continues to level up quickly, evolves at a very respectable lv 20, and in general is a beast throughout the rest of the game. Fly is a really useful HM to have, arguably the most useful since it means you don't have to waste time walking or surfing through routes to get back to places you need to get back to, plus it's a pretty good attack in-game that allows one turn of invincibility+70BP (105BP factoring in STAB). For other attacks, you get STAB Drill Peck and Return which wreck shit.

    Then again, if you catch Spearow earlier he does an amazing job of kicking Bugsy's butt, and that Scyther is tough if you don't have Cyndaquil or Geodude (but who doesn't have at least one of those?)

    I *guess* upper-mid is okay for him, but I would really argue that high would be a better description-- he's every bit as useful as Mareep or Red Gyara. He tears through Morty and Chuck, gets you through the Team Rocket hideout just fine with all the Glooms running around and his STABS hitting hard (albeit neutrally) on just about everything else, his STABS are pretty decent on Claire, he's great against a bunch of Koga and Bruno's Pokemon + Vileplume, and pretty much tears through Kanto with the exception of Lt Surge and Brock.



    --

    As for Chikorita line, it actually is pretty useful. While it sucks during the 1st two gyms, after that it's way better. It tanks Whitney's Miltank better than any of the other starters since Rollout is NVE and it has access to Reflect early on. After that, it's great in Chuck's gym, in the Lighthouse, against Pryce, can hold its own vs Claire (esp Kingdra which can't really do anything to a Meganium), has utility vs some of Will + Bruno's mons in E4, and great in Kanto vs Surge (tanks him), Sabrina (her Psychic mons can't take physical attacks), and Misty+ Brock for obvious reasons.

    Sure Razor Leaf is its only good STAB till you get Giga Drain, but it's a pretty good one-- 55BP with a high crit ratio, and you learn it at level 8! Body Slam at level 31 is also really useful -- an 85BP attack coming off Base 82 attack with a 30% chance of para-hax. If you prefer more power, you can always just use Return instead. It also has amazing recovery in Synthesis, which really adds to its staying power without making you waste valuable items. Those Hyper Potions do add up, believe it or not, and not having to use them is nice because it gives you more money for TMs (and the Move Tutor in Crystal)

    A good moveset I use in-game a lot is:
    -Body Slam/Return
    -Razor Leaf (Giga Drain when you get it)
    -Synthesis
    -Reflect/Light Screen

    Reflect and Light Screen are also great if you want to minimize damage to your team and thus save money on potions and such.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  23. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    430
    Rollout is a normal hit on Bayleef, Rock attack does normal damage to Grass type
  24. Ender

    Ender meteoric
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    253
    Just wanted to let you guys know I'm in the middle of finals period right now, so I'll read through this, address concerns, and update it once they're done.
  25. Lestrade

    Lestrade

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    "Hold its own" doesn't actually mean effective, and I guess this exercise favors the overly offensive and Grass types as a whole have a big disadvantage of not being effective offensive types. I get that they're good against water types, and water types make up a majority of the game, but there are only a few places in the game that are water-type heavy (that one ocean segment full of tentacool who both have high special defenses and no weakness to grass types) and almost none of the major fights in the game see a grass type as an effective option. Meganium specifically is hindered by its just-below-acceptable attack stats, and even though there are ways to use it because "effective" means OHKO, I guess that means it doesn't hit very high at all on the list.

    Speaking of which, what was the point of changing top-mid-low to A B C D E F G if it's just going to be the same as a top-mid-low system anyway?

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)