Hail: More Than Anti-Metagame Idealism

Current team of Abomasnow / Tentacruel / RestTalk Hariyama / Froslass / Jirachi / Kyurem doing really nicely, up to #19 on Beta already. Hariyama is actually massively underrated, it completely walls Genesect and most Sun teams (including Lavos sun), while obviously still providing pressure against Tyranitar and Ferrothorn.

Lanturn is a pretty damn good idea too. I think the RestTalk set would be the way to go; walling Scizor, Genesect, Thundurus and Tornadus with one mon would remove a lot of teambuilding problems Hail has.
 
As someone else tried to say, building a team around Hail is no good. You can't create a whole team that abuses Hail like most Rain or Sun teams. Hail is just a strategy that can help a team, as you don't have to use 3-4 slots just to prevent enemy weather abusers to destroy you.
Reuniclus and Alakazam are amazing pokes that CAN work in hail, but they don't even use it. Jirachi does the same but is forced to use Wish more often, giving opponent's pokes more chances to attack throught paralysis.
Slowbro covers weaknesses and has recovery+regenerator, but doesn't abuse Hail (well, you can use Specs Blizzard..). Same goes for all the other mons, except for Mamoswine (who however dislikes losing it's resistance to ice and being neutral to fire).

Now look at rain abusers: Tornadus and Thundurus get 100% accurate stab moves, Politoed, Keldeo & co. get a 50% boost in water moves, Tenta and Toxicroak now have insane recovery, Grass and Steel types see their weakness to fire halved, etc.. etc..
Sun is similar, with Chlorophillers still around.
Sand has that 50% boost in SpD that makes Tyranitar counter any special attacker bar Keldeo, Sand Veil abusers (not sure for how long), Sand Force Landorus, Sand Rush and a passive damage to which most of the team is immune.
Hail, instead, has 100% accurate blizzards (Kyurem and some water pokes can use it), a passive damage that damages your pokes too and abilities that nobody use. Ice body has poor distribution and the only user of Snow Cloak (Froslass is never seen in OU) has now a better ability to use and that works 100% of the time.

I'm not saying Hail is bad: I like it and use it, but it is not a weather to work a team around. I see it more like a counter-weather as it gives enemy weather abusers harder time and forces your opponent to switch more often to have their favourite weather up.
 
Resttalk Lanturn? Which moves are more optimal, Scald+Tbolt or Heal Bell+Attack?

The great thing about Hail is that, unlike other weathers, it can't really be swept by it's own abusers. Rain has Kingdra. Sun has fire types. Sand has Landorus. Hail has...nothing. The very reason it isn't used as often is actually a benefit!
 
Scald + Heal Bell is what I've been using, the awesome thing is that you have something like a 56% chance to wake up by the second turn when using Sleep Talk.
 
As I guy who faced many Hail teams, some of the I'm not sure why but I think Flash Fire Chandelure is an awesome pokemon to try, for one he spinblocks and another being the sub/hpfight/calmmind/shadowball is priceless and offers many setting up opportunities. Did I mention he doesn't give 2 cents about fighting moves either?
Yeah, I run Flash Fire Chandelure on mine and it really doesn't give a crap about any of Hail's main weaknesses. However, I go with the Scarf set over Sub/Calm Mind and it works to great success.

Might put my hail team on the RMT thread, as so far it is my favourite OU team to play and I think I have built it very well. It isn't perfect, but man is it fun and effective. You can really utilize some underrated Pokemon on a Hail team.
 
Just wanted to say reading this thread sparked me to get back into OU and use hail, which I had a lot of fun with back in 4th Gen. Sure Hail can't be tailored directly to abusing Hail like it used to be, but the team I put together has been incredibly fun to use.

As has already been discussed, using Hail as an anti-meta accent to a team really makes for a good time. The Expert Belt Abomasnow posted earlier in the thread is definitely the MVP of the team in terms of the surprise factor and its ability to nab KO's.

Long story short, glad this thread was made, hail definitely deserves more love.
 
I don't think we're disagreeing an anything, since I didn't make my point clear, but I what I mean was that I don't find Fire attacks that debilitating to a Hail team when resists and counters are not difficult to fit onto a team...
Anyway, what I was saying about all Hail teams running a solid Fighting-type... There are no absolutes, but Fighting-types have such great synergy with Hail teams that there's no real reason NOT to run one.
We are definitely on the same page here, and I totally agree with you on the whole Fighting type thing.

I currently run Tentacruel and Gastrodon as my main fire checks. Gastrodon is a beast in hail, being only weak to grass; and guess who has a 4x resistance to grass?

I'm also trying out Metagross in hail and he's turning out okay so far.

The problem I'm having now is for an effective Scarfer. I'm currently running Latios and he's great - but he gets trapped by 'Tar pretty easily.
 
Scald + Heal Bell is what I've been using, the awesome thing is that you have something like a 56% chance to wake up by the second turn when using Sleep Talk.
great example of pure theory mon, using heal bell the second turn while rested is useless because you wake up next turn anyway... so its really a liability the second rest turn v(assuming it didnt wake you the first rest turn)
 
Tried out another hail team built with suggestions from here, and my god, Hariyama is so good in hail.

Rest Talk is very helpful, especially when you Whirlwind their boosted sweeper because of it.
 
Currently running a Hail team of Abomasnow/Mamoswine/Chandelure/Donphan/Rotom-W/Skarmory and it is working wonders so far. I'm glad this thread was made, as it inspired me to play OU again. This team may be my favourite OU team I've ever made.
 
We are definitely on the same page here, and I totally agree with you on the whole Fighting type thing.

I currently run Tentacruel and Gastrodon as my main fire checks. Gastrodon is a beast in hail, being only weak to grass; and guess who has a 4x resistance to grass?

I'm also trying out Metagross in hail and he's turning out okay so far.

The problem I'm having now is for an effective Scarfer. I'm currently running Latios and he's great - but he gets trapped by 'Tar pretty easily.
If you don't need a ridiculously fast scarfer Metagross actually does a pretty good job. Great resistances to switch in, Pursuit, Trick, ridiculous power and great coverage moves. To top that off, NO ONE expects scarf Metagross so if you don't reveal the scarf too early he can score some vital KOs. Haven't had a chance to use him for a month or so but definitely my favourite way to use him in the current meta.
 

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Opening my big mouth here for sec about Abomasnow and why I think he’s extremely underrated, not just Hail, the big tree-man himself. While his typing isn’t that great, he has the absolute best movepool out of all the weather inducers. To list it off, he has two 100% accurate base 120 STAB attacks in Blizzard & Wood Hammer, STAB priority in Ice Shard, the ever annoying Leech Seed and Giga Drain for recovery with Leech Seed working exceptionally well with Hail and hazards, Earthquake to ward off Fire- and Steel-types, Focus Punch, Focus Blast, the extremely underrated sleep move GrassWhistle, and of course a very usable Hidden Power. And then there’s the Hail itself; passive damage every turn to any Pokémon that’s not Ice-type, arguably the rarest typing in OU, or holds the ability Magic Guard/Overcoat. Snow Warning could very well be considered the brutal of weather abilities as, unlike Sand Storm, it affects all but about 5 Pokémon even remotely common in the OU metagame meaning most team will have all 6 members taking damage from it. Abomasnow’s typing however is a double-edged sword; Grass/Ice provides neutrality to Ice moves and can easily switch in on most Water-types; in fact, Focus Blast, Toxic, or Hypnosis is the worst Politoed can do to Abomasnow making it an open invite to a hailstorm and leaving Abomasnow the only weather inducer in OU that isn’t weak to Politoed’s STAB. But the downside to the Ice-typing is a weakness to Stealth Rock on top of already being a grounded Pokémon leaving him open to all entry hazards. One of his ideal partners, Tentacruel, can easily remove those hazards but it’s still an issue. Despite this, I think that Abomasnow is not only capable, but absolutely should follow the examples of the other weather starters and adopt a more passive set/EV spread. Abomasnow has just good enough defenses to pull it off, and yes, I know that Ice is bad defensively but Abomasnow doesn’t need to be this amazing wall, he needs to be able to take a few hits, Leech Seed to regain health and get out and he can do that quite well.

Leech Seed with Snow Warning, imo, should be Abomasnow’s claim to fame, not to dismiss the rest of his movepool of course. Leech Seed is a phenomenal move with Snow Warning cancelling out any Lefties as well as the threat of Blizzard or HP Fire making sure no Grass-type dares switch in. Each turn that’s 12.5% of a Pokémon’s HP gone and right into Abomasnow’s pocket, healing off any prior damage, namely entry hazards. If they lack Lefties, due to Hail, that’s just less than 1/5th of their HP gone each turn and it doesn’t even matter if Abomasnow stays in or not. Add Hazards to the equation, just Stealth Rock, and without Leftovers it will cost the opponent 31% to switch in their Genesect on Abomasnow and that’s just switching into it; add one turn of Protect and that’s 49.5% total damage while Genesect could do absolutely nothing and all the while, Abomasnow heals off its own damage.

Getting away from Abomasnow for the moment, I think that is truly where Hail’s strength lies: passive damage. I think that instead letting the Hail do all the work, add some Leech Seed to the mix and not just from Abomasnow, if you can’t afford to run Toxic Spikes, throw a few Will-O-Wisps around as it's just as tough to block as Leech Seed, get hazards up, just pile an exceptional amount of punishment with no need for prediction on the opponent for switching and of course run Lefties on anything that can afford it to avoid your non-ice-types from being hindered to heavily. I think if a solid hail team is built around that concept, it will flourish.
 
You bring up an excellent point, and it is seriously making me reconsider my Hail team right now. Passive damage might be the way to go. I'm going to keep the one I already have but experiment with the idea tomorrow. Start a new Hail team and test that theory out because I'm with you, if you can make a solid Hail team around it, it will do extremely well.

...Did we just figure out what Hail was always supposed to be?
 
Hail teams have too many weaknesses that are easily exploitable, not to mention sub-par synergy with steel types. Therefore, I don't think it is wise to play a standard stall-like team with hail.

For me, Hail is about momentum and pressure pressure pressure. Hazard up and throw in a Sub, and watch them wither away.

I may be very wrong about this, though.
 

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I am not at all convinced that Abomasnow / hail is the way to go when building an anti-metagame team.

In my opinion, the way to play anti-weather is not to try to rely on a weather other people can't use (especially when your own team is getting hurt, and Aboma is just so bad at switching in to ANYTHING); instead a better solution is to be better at abusing each weather than the actual weather teams are.

This sounds unusual yes, but it's actually quite possible in practice. Each weather has its problems, even in utilizing it's own weather.

Rain:
-Politoed is not a great poke... in BW, because of drizzle Politoed sees a lot of play, but the fact is that people are still making sets that aren't amazing sets, but are just trying to get the most out of a very mediocre Pokemon needed to set up rain. No matter how you try to make Politoed good, you're not getting around the fact that it's not packing the bulk, power, or movepool of something like Vaporeon or Suicune.

-No swift swim users allowed... (this is a really exploitable weakness...)


Sand:
-Without Excadrill, there's nothing a sand team can do to really abuse sand. Well Sandslash... but Sandslash isn't something to be too worried about.
-Since Pokemon like Landorus, Garchomp, and Terrakion are so splashable into any play style, it's really an even playing field without Excadrill on the scene. Sand doesn't have specialized abusers as powerful as rain or sun.

Sun:
-Ninetales is even crappier than Politoed, and has that SR weak...
-Sun has a natural type inferiority to Sand and Rain, because most of its Pokemon (besides Venusaur) cannot handle Water- and Rock-type attacks.
-Even Venusaur is manageable because Grass is a crap offensive type, and it has no STAB on its very weak fire-type move (plus, its coverage is kind of crappy...).



If I wanted to make an anti-weather strategy, I'd just slap Ditto and Specs Kingdra on my team and call it a day.

Specs Kingdra... now there's an awesome anti-metagame Pokemon. Obviously it destroys anything and EVERYTHING in rain, once Ferrothorn is taken down. This is surprisingly easy to accomplish-- people aren't used to playing against Kingdra, and tend to over-rely on Ferrothorn as a defensive pivot, used in the early game to set up hazards. Just pack Breloom or Terrakion (pokemon you would want on an anti-weather team anyway) and play into the opportunity to bring Ferrothorn down. Even if Kingdra is the last poke on your team, it can single-handedly trump an entire weakened rain team with ease. Kingdra's powerful STAB water attacks have obvious merit against sand as well! Even against sun teams (which tend to be light on Steels and almost never pack Jirachi), Kingdra's 4x resistance to fire and STAB dragon attacks make it a real threat.

As for Ditto... If you're talking about a team that can abuse the enemy's weather (or any offensive strategy) better than the enemy, you got to be thinking about Ditto. If Ditto can copy a boosted Volc in the sun, Tornadus in the rain, or SD Garchomp / Terrakion in sand, it can potentially take out the entire team. It also checks Venusaur (unless you're using HP Fire Ditto, in which case it destroys Venusaur).

I dunno... seems to me there are better ways to be anti-meta than rely on hail...

I'd rather use a bulky pivot poke secretly packing sunny day / rain dance / (hail?) than Abomasnow... it's easier to "win" the weather war when they think they've already won it.
 
Yeah, many of the top teams have troubles with hail team. Although Hail still has many weaknesses, particularly against weatherless teams
 
so, currently in the process of building my passive damage Hail team, and so far here's what I'm thinking:

SubSeed Abomasnow/Tentacruel/RestTalk Hariyama/Frosslass/Heatran/Mamoswine.

Let's see how this works.
 
assassinfred, way too much redundant coverage (Heatran / Hariyama / Mamoswine is ugh). Also incredibly weak to Rain. It basically looks like a sub-optimal version of my old Hail team (Abomasnow, Tentacruel, Hariyama, Jirachi, Kyurem, Froslass). You could also have a look at Aeromence's Hail RMT which uses Skarm and CB Terrak, which does a lot better against Ferrothorn than my version but suffers somewhat against offensive teams of all kinds.

Also, just because it doesn't seem to have caught on in this thread, offensive SubDisable Froslass is the absolute best OU Hail abuser alongside SubRoost Kyurem(Frossy does better against offense, Kyu against defensive teams (especially Hippowdon based teams). I use 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid with Blizzard, Taunt, SubDisable and it almost never lets me down. Really guys, give it a try; it fits on basically any kind of team, including full Hail stall because it checks a heap of threats (Reuniclus, Keldeo, Celebi, Conkeldurr, SD Lucario, CB Terrakion, and the usual Ice weak mons like Gliscor and Celebi) as well as spinblocking.

Finally, one other thing I've seen, Lavos Spawn posted a strange Toxic stalling Mamoswine in the creative movesets thread (Sub, Protect, Toxic, Icicle Crash). At the time I thought it was a very inferior SubRoost Kyurem, and I still don't like the moveset much, but I think Sub Snow Cloak Mamoswine on a paralysis based Hail team could be really effective (not least because it does a great job against Sand teams, unlike other Hail abusers). Paralysis even synergises nicely with the flinch chance on Icicle Crash. I'll build a team around it and post here if it works nicely, would be great if other people wanted to try it out as well.
 
I saw that set, and I wonder how it will hit Steels hard w/out EQ. And you can't paralyze anything, because if you do, you can't Toxic it, which is th main point of Sub/Toxic Mamo
 
Sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I was thinking just using a standard Jolly offensive spread with Sub, Icicle Crash, Earthquake, Protect. I tried it out today a bit and it did okay, nothing incredible though.

To be honest, I've pretty much given up on Hail teambuilding now. There's the Abomasnow / Kyurem / Froslass / Tentacruel / Steel / Fighting build, and the Abomasnow / Forretress / Gyarados defensive teams; every other Hail build I've seen is simply not as good :( The only thing which is still interesting imo is Deoxys-D + Abomasnow (Aboma revenges the Dragons which like to set up on Deoxys, beats Tentacruel, Starmie and Donphan, and lures Forretress with HP Fire. Deoxys helps pile on residual damage and can also lure Tyranitar with Superpower / Low Kick).
 
Both my friend gr8astard and I have had success using hail, and the negativity toward it in my thread is really bringing me down. Hail isn't just about countering other weather, that's just one benefit of it; hail, in my opinion, is about adding up passive damage against your opponent and to have an endgame sweeper(s), or in a stall teams case-- just stall it out. Gr8astard made the original version of this team and I combined it with one of my own and after tweaking the movesets and EV's through testing, this is the final product we both used:

http://pastebin.com/EnHjySAF

Gr8astard peaked #1 on Beta with this team, and rose several alts high on the ladder with ease if any of you wanted a "success rate" on it, and I've done well with it as well using it on the ladder and the first week of the (lol dramaaaa) POCL (sadly losing due to a crit & Jirachi :[). The team was based on SubRoost Kyurem as we both really were amazed by how easily it can sweep with Toxic Spikes, or just be an offensive Pivot versus common rain team moves. I really think it's one of the most solid Hail teams out there, and it utilizes some unique Pokemon and sets to make it work. Golurk is the team's Terrakion counter, and with BW2 giving it Stealth Rock it makes a good Self-Spinblocker. Golurk and hail go hand-in-hand as Golurk losing to Tentacruel and Starmie as spinners, however Abomasnow beats both of them rather easily. Golurk gives hails teams a good Jirachi counter as well, making it a good partner to that Kyurem. Specially Defensive Dragonite was made for an overall sun counter and Baton Pass counter, since it can check common sun sweepers like Volcarona, Venusaur, and wreck Baton Pass chains. It spreads damage from hazards with Dragon Tail, and Earthquake gives the team a good Heatran counter as well. Roost is Roost, obvi. Scarf Jirachi is just a "woahhhh there, back da fuk up" kind of Poke, as anything threatening to sweep is just stopped by it, and ofc it checks Reuniclus, Tornadus-T, is our main way to beat Conkeldurr with Zen Headbutt, etc. It also earns surprise kills vs Lead Genesect with Fire Punch as many don't expect Scarf Rachi on such a defensive looking team. The rest of the team is pretty standard.

Tl;dr-- Hail isn't dead, you can be unique, utilize cool sets, and make hail good. It is for utilizing passive damage, not just being "Anti-Meta", but that's an asset as well. Plus, I think Abomasnow is annoying af to be against with Protect + Hail + Leech Seed.
 

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