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HeartGold and SoulSilver ingame tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Diana, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
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    HeartGold and SoulSilver ingame tiers

    Permission from Jellicent, much of the setup taken from SuperJOCKE's BW2 thread


    The onsite article for this is a bit old now, and is missing some information and is wrong at other things, mainly due to the Pokewalker details not being handled correctly. That being said, like the other new ingame tier threads, this one will probably end up going a bit more in-depth than the last one.

    What is an in-game tier list?

    In-game tier lists rank Pokémon according to their usefulness during the main portion of the game—that is, until the credits roll for the first time. In-game tier lists provide players with the information needed to complete the game as quickly and as effortlessly as possible. For competitively-minded players, this approach to playing the game gives them more immediate access to useful items, TMs, and HMs.

    What are the tiers?

    In this in-game tier list there will be five tiers. Pokémon that are the most useful belong in Top Tier, while Pokémon that are the least useful belong in Bottom Tier. The tiers are as follows:

    -S Tier
    -A Tier
    -B Tier
    -C Tier
    -D Tier
    -E Tier
    -F Tier

    Pokémon the belong in Top Tier are found early in the game or at a high level, can defeat enemies easily, have strong level-up movepools, have useful typing, have high stats, learn a variety of TMs and HMs, and match up well against the game's trainers, gym leaders, and Elite 4. Other aspects, such as self-healing and useful abilities, also positively contribute to a Pokémon's tiering.

    F tier will be saved for Pokemon, such as Unown and Wobbuffet, that are completely non-functional in a run.

    Which Pokémon are available in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver?

    As HeartGold and SoulSilver have Pokemon from nearly the entirety of two generations, as well as a few from newer ones, the games have a ton of variety when it comes to choices. Pokemon are listed in the first area they are available only.

    Show Hide
    New Bark Town: Chikorita, Cyndaquil, Totodile
    Route 29: Pidgey, Rattata, Sentret, Hoothoot
    Route 46: Spearow, Geodude
    Route 30: Caterpie (HG), Weedle (SS), Ledyba (SS), Spinarak (HG)
    Route 31: Bellsprout
    Dark Cave: Zubat, Dunsparce
    Violet City (before beating Gym): Onix
    Violet Pokemon Center (Primo): Mareep, Slugma, Wooper
    Sprout Tower: Gastly
    Violet City (after beating Gym): Togepi
    Route 32: Ekans (SS), Hoppip
    Ruins of Alph (ruins): Unown
    Old Rod: Poliwag, Tentacool, Goldeen, Krabby, Magikarp
    Union Cave: Sandshrew (HG)
    Slowpoke Well: Slowpoke
    Ilex Forest: Oddish, Paras
    Headbutt: Exeggcute, Aipom, Heracross, Pineco
    Route 34: Abra, Drowzee, Ditto
    Goldenrod Game Corner: Ekans (HG), Sandshrew (SS), Dratini
    Goldenrod City: Machop
    Route 35: Nidoran-F, Nidoran-M, Yanma
    National Park: Sunkern
    Bug-Catching Contest: Caterpie (SS), Weedle (HG), Venonat, Scyther, Pinsir
    Route 36: Vulpix (SS), Growlithe (HG), Sudowoodo, Stantler
    Goldenrod City (after visiting Ecruteak): Eevee
    Burned Tower: Koffing, Magmar
    Roaming: Raikou, Entei
    Surf: Psyduck
    Union Cave (lower level): Lapras
    Route 42: Mankey (HG)
    Route 38: Meowth (SS), Magnemite, Farfetch'd, Tauros, Snubbull, Miltank
    Olivine City: Voltorb
    Good Rod: Shellder, Staryu, Chinchou, Qwilfish, Corsola
    Ruins of Alph (outside): Natu, Smeargle
    Route 41: Mantine (HG)
    Cianwood City: Shuckle
    Route 47: Seel
    Route 48: Diglett
    Safari Zone: Clefairy, Jigglypuff, Doduo, Grimer, Cubone, Lickitung, Rhyhorn, Kangaskhan, Mr. Mime, Marill, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Wobbuffet, Girafarig, Larvitar
    Lake of Rage: Gyarados (special)
    Bell Tower: Ho-Oh (HG)
    Whirl Islands: Horsea, Lugia (SS)
    Route 44: Tangela, Remoraid
    Ice Path: Jynx, Swinub, Delibird (SS)
    Waterfall: Tyrogue
    Route 45: Gligar (HG), Teddiursa (SS), Skarmory (SS), Phanpy (HG)
    Route 27: Ponyta
    Kanto: Bulbasaur, Charmander, Squirtle, Pikachu, Chansey, Electabuzz, Porygon, Omanyte, Kabuto, Aerodactyl, Snorlax, Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Houndour, Suicune, Lugia (HG), Ho-Oh (SS)


    Will Pokewalker Pokemon be tiered?

    Unlike standard event Pokemon, any Pokemon found in an area before and including the Town Outskirts area is available in the included Pokewalker accessory before the Elite Four and as early as two Pokemon are caught in the game. These Pokemon will get a tier, while those available after the Elite Four will not.


    Note that with a neutral Pokemon to an area, 1 watt takes 20 steps, while with a favorably-typed Pokemon, it takes only 15. Here is a list of available Pokewalker Pokemon that are noteworthy to consider for tiering purposes:

    Show Hide
    Pokewalker: 20 steps per watt, 15 with preferred type

    Refreshing Field (0 watts): Nidoran-F (500 steps), Nidoran-M (500 steps), Doduo (2000 steps), Kangaskhan (3000 steps)

    Noisy Forest (0 watts): Oddish (0 steps), Paras (700 steps), Venonat (700 steps), Wobbuffet (4000 steps)

    Rugged Road (50 watts): Machop (1000 steps), Ponyta (1000 steps), Onix (4000 steps), Magby (5000 steps)

    Beautiful Beach (200 watts): Sunkern (0 steps), Wooper (0 steps), Slowpoke (1000 steps), Poliwag (1500 steps), Psyduck (4000 steps), Staryu (5000 steps)

    Suburban Area (500 watts): Magnemite (1000 steps), Murkrow (1000 steps), Magnemite (4000 steps), Elekid (5000 steps)

    Dim Cave (1000 watts): Smoochum (5000 steps)

    Blue Lake (2000 watts): Tentacool (0 steps), Goldeen (0 steps), Shellder (500 steps), Krabby (500 steps), Dratini (5000 steps)

    Town Outskirts (3000 watts): Grimer (1500 steps), Koffing (1500 steps), Voltorb (3000 steps), Abra (5000 steps)

    Beyond the Sea is now unavailable due to the end of the game's GTS.



    Current Rankings

    Preliminary tier list (without entries for reference)

    Show Hide
    S

    Cyndaquil
    Totodile


    A

    Heracross
    Ho-Oh (HG)
    Lugia (SS)
    Magikarp/Gyarados
    Nidoran-F
    Nidoran-M
    Scyther (no trade)


    B

    Growlithe
    Magnemite
    Pinsir
    Rattata
    Sentret
    Slowpoke
    Staryu
    Tauros


    C

    Caterpie
    Chikorita
    Hoothoot


    D


    E

    Onix (no trade)
    Show Hide



    F

    Ditto
    Unown
    Wobbuffet




    At the current moment, we will be holding off on write-ups until we get the tiers settled. Write-ups already done that are still relevant will be put back into the OP at that time.


    Formatting

    Use the following format when submitting a Pokémon:

    Name: - Tier
    Availability:
    When does this Pokémon become available? Is it easy or hard to encounter?
    Stats: Describe how a Pokémon's stats make it excel. Is it a deadly sweeper or a strong wall? Discuss why you would use this Pokemon thank to its stats.
    Typing: Discuss this Pokémon's typing in a sentence or two. Is its STAB effecient or not, does it have any great resistances or glaring weaknesses?
    Movepool: Describe this Pokémon's movepool in a few sentences. Does it have many effective movepool options through level up? Is it over reliant on TMs to function? Does it have access to useful HMs to help you traverse the region?
    Major Battles: Describe how the Pokémon handles the major opponents throughout the game. Notable opponents and battles include the Gym Leaders, battles against various members of Team Rocket, the final rival battle before the Elite Four, the Elite Four themselves, and the Champion.
    Additional Comments: Discuss any miscellaneous information not covered in other sections here. Factors such as experience growth, abilities, and other lesser characteristics can be discussed here.

    Please write somewhat professionally (Don't use words such as lol etc.)


    No glitches are allowed.
    If Pokemon can evolve via trade, it can be taken into account but not necessarily assumed. If a Pokemon's viability is significantly different based on whether a trade is available, a separate tier may be considered for a Pokemon and its evolution.

    Note: We will be tiering Pokemon in the main game up to Red, but not Hoenn/Sinnoh Pokemon only available in the Safari Zone.

    Feel free to debate other people's submissions as long as it doesn't get too rude, and have fun!
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 3:14 PM
  2. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

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    Red Gyarados for Top Tier, for much the same reasons as in GSC, but now it actually gets to smack face with that glorious base 125 Attack and physical STAB. Ice Fang and Aqua Tail come within five levels, it's still available immediately after Morty, it has Intimidate now to make it even better than GSC... Yeah, no reason for this not to be Top. Professional write up to be done when I have time.
  3. cjrocker

    cjrocker

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    Why is ingame only up to the Elite Four? It should be up to Red imo
  4. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur world's dumbest valedictorian
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    I'll try to help out with this as much as I can. Thanks for putting up the thread!

    (Reserved for future analyses)
  5. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
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    I would agree on Red Gyarados in top unless someone comes up with a really good reason it shouldn't be. That thing is just incredible.

    Well, part of that was transferring rules from another thread for this sort of thing... Okay, you can consider matchups against Kanto in tiers, sure.

    As for Pokemon caught after there, I'm not sure. Most would be pretty useless for being found far too late... It also opens up a bit of a can of worms, as once you beat the Elite Four you end up having a ton of Hoenn/Sinnoh Pokemon available and I'm not sure we should be opening up to that. If people really want it I might change my mind but for now let's keep it to Pokemon available before the Elite Four.

    Here's a list of Pokemon we'd have to consider that aren't in the OP as part of Kanto if we count things other than those that require waits in the Safari Zone:

    Show Hide
    Zigzagoon
    Wurmple (Pokewalker)
    Lotad
    Nuzleaf
    Surskit
    Whismur
    Makuhita
    Skitty (Pokewalker)
    Aron
    Manectric
    Meditite
    Plusle
    Minun
    Volbeat
    Illumise
    Carvanha (Pokewalker)
    Wailmer (Pokewalker)
    Numel
    Spoink
    Spinda
    Zangoose
    Lunatone
    Corphish
    Barboach
    Castform (Pokewalker)
    Kecleon (Pokewalker)
    Tropius (Pokewalker)
    Feebas (Pokewalker)
    Absol
    Duskull
    Snorunt (Pokewalker)
    Bidoof
    Shinx
    Kricketot (Pokewalker)
    Budew
    Combee (Pokewalker)
    Buizel
    Pachirisu
    Shellos (Pokewalker)
    Chingling
    Bronzor
    Chatot
    Spiritomb (Pokewalker)
    Hippopotas
    Skorupi
    Carnivine
    Finneon (Pokewalker)
    Snover (Pokewalker)


    So the question is: Should we deal with all this or not? It's not really good for time purposes ingame but they do exist post-E4 if we're going to go to Red. I guess I'll leave it up to people here if we should or not. The old one didn't.
  6. IstheCakeReallyaLie

    IstheCakeReallyaLie

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    Reserving Dunsparce, Shellder, Exceggute, Heracross, Misdreavous and Game Corner!Dratini.

    Dratini should have 2 entries: One for the Game Corner and one for ESpeedTini, considering they do have one slight difference.
  7. cjrocker

    cjrocker

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    Eh, actually I could see it being more trouble than it's worth unless we want to be thorough. These tier projects take long enough as is.

    Also, does Dratini need two separate entries? Maybe just a note saying how you can get it with Extremespeed if you choose to wait until Blackthorn (which may, in a sense, take less effort than the new Game Corner). Not sure whether or not it's a big enough difference to warrant a different tier.
  8. faint

    faint ima bring the cool whip
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    Scyther definitely needs to be S-Tier, so maybe I'll consider doing a write up for him.
  9. IstheCakeReallyaLie

    IstheCakeReallyaLie

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    Would Scyther without evolution still be S-Tier? Same BST and things.
  10. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Scyther is already ridiculous even without evolution: stab technician wing attack off 100+ attack/speed = lulz
  11. Celever

    Celever

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    Right, because we need something on the list I'll just do a simple one: Chikorita!
    Chikorita - low
    Availability Well, it is rare... (Starter)
    Stats Chikorita has pretty good base defenses, 65 a piece (which is something that also happens to compliment it's move-set) but only 45 in HP and Speed, making it both slow and frail despite the defense. The attack stats aren't much better, at 49 apiece.
    Typing Grass is the type which on paper has the single most weaknesses (Rock does too though), that's right, even more than ice! And the bad thing is, is that the types it is weak to contain common types such as flying and, especially I should say, bug!
    Movepool By level up it get grass and normal moves to attack with. It gets various helper moves, like light screen, safeguard and reflect by level up, as well as poisonpowder to help catch pokemon. Besides that though, it is terrible.
    Major battles Weak to the first 2 gyms, Falkner and Bugsy, and cannot be used with them at all except on Bugsy's Metapod (Kakuna has poison sting). Neutral on Whitney, but sort of lacks the moves to do well on her. Neutral on Morty's main type, but all of his pokemon are also part-poison so this is a no-go too! Chuck, ok, the first pokemon he can actually excel in is Chuck because of Poliwrath! Poliwrath can't hit Meganiu, super-effectively, but he can be super-effective on him! He can also set up a reflect if you want to risk it, but due to his specialty move being focus punch I wouldn't recommend it! Can't do anything to Jasmine or Pryce... Or Clair except set up screens! There is only one pokemon in the entire elite four that it can do anything on, which is Will's Slowbro! Joy... I can't remember the way you travel through Kanto, so I'll just do the Kanto gym order since I know that! He is good on Brock, especially the fossil pokemon, so he can do well on both Brock and Misty... Except that Misty's Lapras and Starmie both pack ice beam. Compared to the other gym leaders, 2 pokemon on a team is pretty darn good! :P Anyway, will do terrible on Erika due to dual poison typing and moves, Can't do much on Lt. Surge either! Can't do anything on Janine or Blaine, only sets up light screen with Sabrina and Blue... Meganium is only super-effective on one of his pokemon, Rhydon, who just happens to pack Megahorn, making Meganium useless since it will probably not be a OHKO!
    Red: Same story pretty much! Only good on Blastoise which has Blizzard!
    Miscellaneous comments Outclassed by Cyndaquil and Totodile sorrowfully.
  12. cjrocker

    cjrocker

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    No way in hell is Chikorita bottom. True it's outclassed and does pitifully against the first two gyms but it gets better after that. Mid at worst.

    Sidenote, Morty's Pokemon may be Poison-type but they have no Poison attacks so that's a moot point. You should be sweeping that gym with Extrasensory Togepi anyhow.
  13. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
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    Are the two Dratini really different enough? I wouldn't think so, especially because ExtremeSpeed isn't all that great ingame. Note that I'm really good at that Voltorb Flip thing so I admit I'm a bit biased toward things you get in it...

    Scyther is a clear S. Technician Wing Attack just beats things. Rock Smash is surprisingly good too, as odd as it sounds.

    Now for Chikorita... I admit, it's one of the worst starters you'll ever use, but bottom? Grass is kind of an odd type, really. It's totally useless against many Pokemon in Team Rocket and the like, but it just dominates any areas with Water and Hikers and the like, and you'd be surprised how good it is against Whitney thanks to its bulk and Reflect.

    It's surely not high, but bottom's far too low for it. It's the best Grass-type you can get and it has its really good and really bad spots, so I'd put it in Mid myself.
  14. x42bn6

    x42bn6

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    I'm going to nominate Magnemite for High tier, although I think it's "mid-high", really. It's a more defensive Pokémon that naturally means slower game completion, but it's pretty good at its role. I'm open to sticking it as Middle.

    Name: Magnemite - High
    Availability: Route 38/39, common, level 16
    Stats: It has good Special Attack and solid Defense. Unfortunately, it is let down by poor Speed, average Special Defense and poor HP, meaning it has poor Special bulk.
    Typing: Electric/Steel moves give it decent attack coverage. Electric is not really resisted as Electric, Grass and Dragon types are relatively rare, while Steel (Magnet Bomb) disposes of Rock/Ground types.
    Movepool: Magnemite wins no prizes here. The only notable offensive moves at are: Spark at level 20, Magnet Bomb at level 30, and Discharge at an annoying level 38 (40 as a Magneton). It also gets Thunder Wave at the start. It can learn Thunderbolt by TM but Discharge is more than enough.
    Major Battles: Chuck's Poliwrath is risky, but it can be beaten one-on-one. It beats Pryce, although that's not really saying much - but note it has to OHKO Piloswine, who can retaliate with a 4x effective Mud Bomb. It obviously beats Clair's Gyarados. Where it stars, however, is the fact that it beats every single Team Rocket member comfortably, besides Houndour/Houndoom: It resists pretty much everything Team Rocket throws at it, can't be poisoned, and laughs at Selfdestruct. Unfortunately, its poor Special bulk means that Clair's Kingdra can beat it (a resisted Dragon Pulse will do about the same damage as Discharge at similar levels). This carries over into the Elite Four: It can beat some things, but expect it to take a fair chunk from even resisted Special attacks (i.e. Will's Slowbro).
    Additional Comments: Magnemite really wishes it resisted Water moves. Thanks to its poor Special bulk, it can be OHKOed by a critical-hit Bubblebeam by Tentacruel at similar levels, which means that initially leveling Magnemite up is a huge pain in going back to the Pokémon Center constantly. It doesn't help that it is easily outsped, so Goldeen/Poliwag in the other Surfing areas can sleep/confuse it and whittle it down before Magnemite OHKOs in return. Once you get over that speed bump, however, you will have a sturdy Pokémon who hits most things neutrally for a decent amount of damage, and has great utility in Thunder Wave. You don't need to evolve it to a Magnezone for it to be good, although it is useful to do so.
  15. faint

    faint ima bring the cool whip
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    Let's not forget about Pinsir and Heracross, both of which should also be high. Pinsir and Heracross will always have a better movepool than Scyther (and typing), but what keeps them from being S tier is that neither of them receive technician, and in Heracross' case his availability limits him from being classified as S.

    Nidoran should also be high for obvious reasons, and we could argue that Sentret deserves high or at least middle since Furret is a really good HM whore.
  16. Celever

    Celever

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    Bottom could be pushing it, but I originally had him in low. I actually changed my mind whilst writing it around the start of the kanto leaders matchup, since on paper, taking into account the stats of the foe's pokemon and everything else, in terms of gym leader and elite four teams he was good on 2 pokemon (3 if he's as good on Whitney as you say he is) which is truly pitiful. His stats are bad, and while he doesn't have much competition in terms of grass types, in this game you'd have to be looking for a giant challenge to use a grass type with such a secluded movepool as Chikorita and Sunkern. If you guys think he is that good then I can change it to low, but Chikorita is hardly mid-tier material. I once tried a chikorita solo of heart-gold, in fact. Have you ever tried grinding to level 16 on level 3 bellsprout (and I only won at that level due to lucky hax)!
  17. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

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    Hoothoot - Mid Tier
    Availability: First catchable on Route 29, making it one of the earliest available mons - but only at night!
    Stats: As a Hoothoot? Pretty pathetic. Terrible offenses, and it's best base is 60 HP. That's pretty bad. When it evolves to Noctowl, things don't get much better, but it has respectable HP and SpD, and passable SpA.
    Typing: Normal/Flying. Yeah. Flying is a great type to have in this game though, being advantageous over several gyms, and Grass and Bug types are relatively common.
    Movepool: What differentiates Hoothoot from other fliers is its ability to use Psychic moves in battle. With Team Rocket's Poisons everywhere, this gives Hoothoot the edge over the likes of Pidgey. It also has a few neat tricks like Hypnosis, Reflect and Psycho Shift to support the team. Notably, it's the earliest Sleeper you can find, gaining Hypnosis at level 5. And of course, Fly utility.
    Major Battles: Falkner - You can handle Pidgey, but Pidgeotto will completely wreck you. Get in a Hypnosis and switch to Geodude.
    Bugsy - You'd think this would be a good match, but Scyther is too powerful and Peck is too weak to give Hoothoot a fair chance. Yeah, it beats the cocoons, but what doesn't?
    Whitney - You can beat Clefairy if you're high enough levelled. Don't even think about Miltank.
    Morty - You should be Noctowl by now. This is the fight he was tailor made to cheese. Insomnia, its Normal typing and Confusion allow for an easy victory here. Literally all Morty can do is Curse at you.
    Chuck - Don't take him on without Air Slash (level 32). Reflect and Hypnosis also help make this fight a lot easier, but watch out for Primeape's Rock Slide.
    Jasmine - Just... No... WHY WOULD YOU EVEN TRY THIS WITH NOCTOWL
    Pryce - Again, no.
    Clair - Sadly, Noctowl can't do much here. Two Dragonair have super effective moves, and Kingdra completely outmuscles and outspeeds it.
    Various Rival Battles - You beat the Bat and the Ghost. And the starter, if you picked Totodile.
    Various Team Rocket Encounters - Noctowl's Psychic moves make the difference here. Beat down those Koffings with Confusion and Air Slash the Glooms and whatnot.
    Kimono Girls - You can beat Espeon if you have Shadow Ball I guess?
    Will - Noctowl actually makes a decent Special sponge, so it can do well here, apart from Jynx. You should really have Shadow Ball if you want to take on Will with Noctowl though...
    Koga - Noctowl wins handily, apart from Forretress and possibly Muk if it gets too many evasion boosts.
    Bruno - Noctowl can probably even take on lolOnix. But beware Hitmonchan's punches and Machamp's Stone Edge. And be prepared for a mostly 2HKOs with Air Slash.
    Karen - Vileplume? Gengar? Murkrow? Umbreon? Ain't no thang. Houndoom, however... You can sponge it a little, but you will probably lose.
    Lance - Just when things were looking up. Poor Noctowl can't win against a single mon on Lance's team.
    Brock - No.
    Misty - No.
    Surge - GOD NO.
    Erika - Air Slash for days yo.
    Janine - Koga redux! Except no Muk and Forretress. GG.
    Sabrina - Do you have Shadow Ball? Yeah, you can take her on. Even if you don't, you can sponge at least.
    Blaine - Magmar and Rapidash outspeed you and Magcargo is part rock. Don't expect to win.
    Blue - You beat Exeggutor and Machamp and can go toe to toe with Pidgeot.
    Red - ... Well you beat Venusaur. That's something.
    Additional Comments: Noctowl has a lot of damn good matchups, and a sleep immunity is always welcome. Hypnosis can bail you out in a pinch, but shouldn't really be relied on due to the shaky accuracy. It has a lot of mid-game utility due to Team Rocket's complete wimpitude in the face of the mighty owl and if you carry it to Kanto and the E4, might just surprise you. Give him a whirl!
  18. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Chikorita was rather poor in original GSC but it learns Petal Dance upon evolution in this one, so it's a lot more useable. Great counter for Chuck and the ice-type gym. Razor Leaf as early as L6 can't be ignored either, though it won't help against fliers/bugs/poisons. And it's a starter with all the availability in the world. High or Mid is the question here, but Bottom? That's unreasonable sandbagging.

    I don't think we should differentiate between different Dratinis similarly to how we shouldn't differentiate between the same Pokemon as caught on different routes. Simply mention all the options and suggest which one is more efficient (e.g. Red Gyarados > training a wild Magikarp).

    All Technician does for Scyther is boost Wing Attack (which is important enough but that's it). Maybe Rock Smash. I believe it's still better than Heracross because Heracross needs a bit of training when caught.
  19. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
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    A few updates.

    I'm going to say Chikorita should be in Mid, and in the preliminary list without entries put it as such. You can still debate it a bit though, I think it's solidly Mid.

    I put Scyther and Gyarados in Top for now, though I wonder if anyone's ever trade-evolved Scyther after the E4 and tried it. Is it significantly different?

    Heracross and Pinsir seem good in High.

    Added that Magnemite write-up to High for now, as I agree it's just barely good enough for it as I used it before and really did like it. It's pretty borderline though, and I'm seriously considering splitting mid into two tiers just for cases like this. The original one had nine tiers, so maybe having six instead of five would be worthwhile. I'll need to give that some thought.

    Also added Hoothoot to Mid as suggested, as it's not all that bad. It's on the lower end of Mid, honestly, but with the current set-up it's probably just good enough to make Mid. Would be Lower Mid if I split it most likely.

    I'm torn on where Sentret should be, I'd like a few more opinions on this.

    Also we're not going to separately tier the Dratinis. It just doesn't make sense. Magikarp/Red Gyarados may be worth a very rare split exception though, I'm actually thinking of testing early-caught Magikarp in a run to see if it's that much worse than the Red Gyarados.

    By the way nothing's set in stone at the moment so feel free to dispute any of this!
  20. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
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    560
    Totodile and Cyndaquil should be Top easily. Cyndaquil no longer has movepool issues at any point of the game (he did in GSC and we still put it into Top in spite of my protesting) and Feraligatr is just a monster period with some ludicrous coverage.

    Kadabra is another definite candidate for Top I feel, even if it doesn't fully-evolve. You get Calm Mind to set up against special attackers or weaklings like Hitmontop, Reflect comes at L28, and there's also Shadow Ball, Focus Blast and Charge Beam TMs, all available pretty early.

    The benefit of catching a Magikarp is that you get to use Gyarados against Morty (who's not exactly all that menacing), maybe even Whitney if you grind it a lot (takes long), but aside from mentioning that Gyarados can exist at that point in the game I don't think this is something we'd recommend to players because not only can Magikarp be skipped as a crap combat stage, but Red Gyarados comes at a more than competent level.

    Furret is pretty good. High attack and speed, STAB Return, U-Turn, Shadow Claw, Dig, comes early and evolves early. Mid because its offence could be better endgame and because it's not good at taking hits.
  21. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,349
    Cyndaquil Top ? Well, he has Fire-Normal move coverage I think he deserves High but not Top.
  22. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
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    But Fire is an excellent offensive type in GSC compared to most other things you get and some weird stuff like Dig can work for coverage too. You can even use Blast Burn for lulz.

    The only thing I don't really like is that Typhlosion no longer gets to cheap out on Water-types with a quick Thunderpunch to the face anymore :(
  23. x42bn6

    x42bn6

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
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    I've added the below quote to the review with Magneton vs. Pryce. It didn't really happen to me because I OHKOed Piloswine with an overlevelled Magneton, but this could happen:

    In fact, I think it might be better to reword it as "it beats Pryce, except for his Piloswine". Which is not the worst thing in the world since loads of things can hurt Piloswine super-effectively anyway, without an awkward 4x weakness to Ground.
  24. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    1,349
    Ya Thunder Punch loss was bad for him. But really Top Tier ?

    Isn't Magnet Bomb physical ? Magneton without Magnezone is sad ... Especially when he doesn't have the attack of Magnezone for Magnet Bomb / Gyroball and Flash Cannon is not available until Cerulean ( I don't count the TM in Goldenrod Department Store because luck is involved)
  25. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    IDK, but in a place where Fire types aren't the most common thing ever (your competition is a rare encounter (magmar), has movepool issues (flareon), a roaming legend (entei), a version mascot (ho-oh), and a latecomer (ponyta)), Typhlosion does stand out imo. Catching Magmar isn't say, the easiest thing in the world (although it beats Entei at least). Typhlosion has merits for being a fire-type earlygame that can beat everything reliably early on.

    OP's description of Top:
    Cyndaquil fits the aspect of coming early, as a Starter Pokemon, and is levelled enough to hold its own. It also has favourable matchups with some gym leaders (Bugsy, Jasmine, Pryce) and is capable of faring well against others (Falkner, Morty). The only one that it really falls in is a movepool, but Fire/Normal/Dig is workable enough for in-game imo.

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