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Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Diana, Jan 8, 2013.
Actually, Slowking wins in tanking Hyper Beams, which are specially-based in HGSS.
Yeah, not the Hyper Beams; the real boons of Slowbro's physical bulk are in taking Crunch/Thunder Fang from Aerodactyle and STAB Outrage.
I don't like the idea of relying on Nasty Plot as a crutch, and then saying "hey, it's okay to not have Slack Off because you can Hyper Potion," because that's ultimately the same result as throwing on X-items onto Pokemon to boost their stats. If X-Acc + Horn Drill doesn't jump a Pokemon to Top Tier in RBY's tier list, Nast Plot + H-Potion shouldn't push a Poke to the top of this one either.
I don't know what games you've been playing, but 5 levels means a lot in a Pokemon's performance-- In game, you're trying to avoid grinding for every level, and you're trying to avoid wasting trainer battles (experience) on Pokemon. If you can get them at a higher level instead, that's a big deal. Especially in HGSS where there is so little available experience from trainer battles, and your team is liable to still be in its late 30's going into the Elite Four.
This carries on to Slowpoke as well. Why would I use a severely under-leveled Pokemon that will be a minor contributor at best? When the alternative is to get a high-leveled fully evolved Poke right at the point in the game where it will start to excel?
Even if you can raise it to beat Metapod/Kakuna, who cares? It can Yawn Miltank-- useful, but not a game breaker. Similarly, Confusion-ing a bunch of Ghastlies to death isn't a big achievement either. I could use those trainer battles to put valuable experience on Pokemon who can really perform against those gyms-- Pokemon who are best trained in this earlier arc of the game. It makes no sense to waste experience on a Slowpoke who will probably end up at only around level 24-27 after Ekruteak when I could catch a level 30 Slowbro at the same part of the game.
I'll add some notes about Physical Bro later though, and mention Yawn and Curse. I wouldn't use a full physical Bro in-game because Cursing every battle is pretty inefficient, and Surf is powerful and convenient, while Aqua Tail / Dive are pretty damn inconvenient. Avalanche is cool though-- it appears right before you really need Ice moves, and it's much more reliable than Blizzard. Avalanche would be the main reason you'd go for a Cursing/Physical Slowbro. I'll be sure to add these details in.
There's also Charizard with his Shadow Claw making the water/psychic typing a bit of a nuisance.
I wouldn't say using items and using X-items is the same. Items are available for everyone and are one of the best way how one can manage their money. Would you say moves like Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Calm Mind don't deserve a moveslot just because they have an inferior item equivalent? Nasty Plot is a darn good move, and not one available to most of the Pokemon who wish they had it. You're probably not using it every battle but with Surf, you don't have to.
You could make a similar point about stats and movepools not mattering because X items can replace whatever shortcomings Pokemon have in those aspects. Caterpie with 6 X Attacks and some defensive/speed boosts is sweeping the game just fine. X items can turn anything into a monster, and erase all discrepancies Pokemon may have between one another. Nasty Plot gives you the boost of 2 X Specials, to use your thinking.
Anyway, I do recall X accuracy strats being stressed in the RBY reviews of Kingler, and I think Nidoking as well? I think most would agree Recover/Moonlight et al are a poor choice for 4th moveslot besides the instances where you really don't have anything better to put there (like GSC Staryu).
Slowbro's encounter rate is 9 times lower compared to Slowpokes', and their levels still vary from 15 to 30 according to Bulbapedia. Why aren't you concerned about time spent catching something as much as you're concerned about the relatively small difference between levels 25 and 30? You'd still go for Slowbro (maybe ignoring its level) if trading is out, or if you're so negative to Slowking (for whatever reason).
I've never once visited E4 with late 30s aside from challenge runs, though I never skip trainers and prefer not to raise a team of 6 (usually 4 + 2 slaves).
There are also numerous benefits to training a Pokemon over catching a high-level wild one, such as its actual contributions during the extra time it exists and all the EVs it accumulates in that time.
Does that mean we're soloing the game with our starter if we're so afraid that their experience will be given to something else? Feraligatr solos are fine with me and people who find that sort of playstyle fun may stick to it if they wish, but that essentially puts a big question over the usage of anything besides the starter, Red Gyarados and the version exclusive legendary, because everything makes a claim to experience.
40 special on Slowpoke is nothing impressive, but its water/psychic dual STABs and physical bulk are good enough for the earlygame until you get a King's Rock. It's definitely not a hurdle.
You don't have to Curse every battle, only when it makes a difference. Physical water-types moves are best not used on Slowdude, I'd argue, since those are mostly unavailable, and Surf is too good.
Agreed on Avalanche.
I think the difference between Slowbro and Slowpoke's encounter rate really comes into whether you plan on abusing the repel trick to get Slowbro quickly. Surfing with Repel active and a lead from L26-29 guarantees you a Slowbro in an encounter.
Slowbro coming at L30 is more of a convenience than a liability, since you save time training these 5 levels, compared to if you went with a L25 Slowking. I won't say it's extremely important, just that its conveniently high levelled enough so you don't really have to put in any more resources before it starts pulling its weight. It's almost the same logic as Ho-oh/Lugia/Red Gyarados (although Slowbro will never be as useful as those three).
I'm not exactly sold on the notion of earlygame Slowpoke and having to drag it around for 20+ levels when most of your team should be nearing final evolution at that point. Slowpoke's stats aren't exactly stellar and I probably wouldn't want to bring it past Whitney. Dragging something with 65/45/15 offenses for 20+ levels? uh no plz
For RBY X Accuracy iirc the problem was that it was basically being used as an argument to argue *insert derp here with Horn Drill/Fissure* for a higher tier than what it'd normally be able to do otherwise (rapidash, dewgong, etc. although dewgong is still useful)
Yeah the RBY X Accuracy was pretty absurd
The problem is the fact that even for that argument, were still relying on 5 PP to use, something that im sure most of the "derpers" need more than that to goes all the way through the usage unless you are doing some other derp stuff such as buying several Horn Drill TM to blow during Elite 4
Just an extra note:
I kinda hate doing tiering for HGSS, or really any gen 3 onwards game just because you can't playtest the game easilly by speedrunning the thing in one day(something that you can do for RBY and GSC rather easilly). This make it kinda hard to make an accurate match up analysis.
Gen 3 has utter lack of mechanic to make the gameplay slow while gen 4 is slow in general....
Maybe i will try to do some untiered yet stuff....
Lugia High (Soulsilver only)
Availibility : After all the gyms but before the Elite 4 meaning not the best but right in time because the first elite 4 member's highest level Pokémon is 3 levels lower then the level 45 you get Lugia at.
Typing : Psychic and Fying gives you weaknesses to Dark, Electric, Rock,Ice and Ghost type moves but at this point in the game you won't see Ghost move outside of Karen's Gengar.
Movepool : This is where it gets good, when you catch it it will have the moves to take on the first 3 members of the elite 4 and half of Lance's team, four if you have a spare Thunder/bolt TM, six if you have a spare Blizzard/Ice beam TM as well, as well as one, maybe all, of Karen's Pokémon, meaning it is never completely dead weight. You can replace Extrasensory with Psychic if you want but those 4 moves are all it needs really.
Major Battles :
Will : Use rain dance turn one and hit what is on the field with the appropriate move, Xatu's or Jynx get hit with Hydro Pump, hit Exeggutor and Slowbro with Aeroblast.
Koga : Hit his bugs with Aeroblast, if Forretress survives it it could explode on you so be careful with that, and hit Muk and Crobat with Extrasensory/Psychic.
Bruno : Use your Psychic move of choice on the Hitmons and Machamp, Onix gets wrecked by Hydro Pump.
Karen : You can easily dispose of Vileplume, Gengar and Houndoom with Aeroblast, your Psychic move of choice and Hydro Pump respectively, Umbreon can be annoying with Double Team, Confuse Ray and Payback but it's not to dangerous while one rain-boosted Hydro Pump or an Aeroblast will send Murkrow packing.
Lance : It easily disposes of Gyarados if you teach it Thunder/bolt which I recommend doing along with Blizzard/Ice Beam before you go in here so that it is easier, if you do replace Rain Dance and Hydro Pump because they will not be to useful here, if it has an ice move you can take the Dragonites, otherwise only take on the one with Fire Blast. Aerodactyl and Charizard fall to Hydro Pump if you kept it or your electric move if you have one, but if your a similar level to Aerodactyl it can outspeed and hit you with Thunder Fang, Rock Slide or Crunch so he is better left to another Pokémon.
The Kanto gym leaders will be in the order of their badges in the badge case.
Brock : Surf / Hydro Pump and Extrasensory alone will wreck Brock on their own, Extrasensory Kabutops and Omastar, Surf the other 3.
Misty : Get the Thunder TM from Goldenrod if you have already taught Thunderbolt to something else. Use that on Golduck, Lapras and Starmie and use Extrasensory on Quagsire.
Lt Surge Despite being a flying type, Lugia can wreck everything but Magneton with Extrasensory, and Surf is a good fallback move to hit it.
Erika The only thing that could stop you from destroying her is Jumpluff using Sunny Day turn one, because Aeroblast will easily destroy her entire team.
Janine Give Lugia a Lum Berry and take out everything with Extrasensory, the only possible stop to your sweep is Crobat's Confuse Ray and Supersonic, both are blocked by the Lum Berry.
Sabrina Smash her with Shadow Ball if Lugia knows it, otherwise hit her with Surf, Hydro Pump or Aeroblast. Mr Mime's filter makes all three moves stronger then Shadow Ball.
Blaine Surf or Hydro Pump will wash him away but Rapidash can hurt with Flare Blitz and can use Bounce to dodge attacks for one turn, so Surf is the better choice for your water move.
Blue You might think you need four different moves but you realy only need two. Aeroblast takes out Exeggutor, Machamp and Gyarados. Surf washes away Rhydon and Arcanine while Pidgeot can be taken out with either move. Arcanines Extreemespeed can hurt though.
Pikachu : It is a Pikachu, you only fear Volt Tackle while you can take him out with anything you have.
Lapras : You need to be careful with Blizzard but an electric move will fry it.
Snorlax : Stay away at the start but Lugia can be an effective finisher with Aeroblast.
Venusaur : Its Erika all over again, crush it with Aeroblast.
Charizard : Its Blaine all over again, crush it with Surf, Flare Blitz can hurt though.
Blastoise : Blizzard hurts, but an electric move, Psychic or Aeroblast can all hurt him too.
Additional comments : While an ice or electric move will help Lugia they are unnecessary and should only be taught before fighting Lance if you are using them in Johoto. They can be very useful against most Kanto gym Leaders.
I'm unreserving Misdreavous, just for her availability. For anyone doing an analysis of her, I'd say she needs to be Mid or below, if just for her availability.
Edit: Never mind, Missy can be found in the Safari Zone.
Edit II: Oh, and, due to the absurd rarity of evo stones, I'm pretty sure most stone-only evos should be Mid, maybe High, or below.
About Lugia, TM Psychic is impossible to have until Kanto, so...
Lugia is hindered by the low PP of Aeroblast(5) and Hydro Pump, which can be replaced by Surf.
Against Koga's bugs, Extrasensory>Aeroblast, because the low PP of Aeroblast.
Shadow Ball smashes Will if you don't mind to spend that unique TM.
Okay, time to at least sort of update.
First, I'm seriously considering dropping Magnemite to Mid, some really good points were brought up. On the fence about it overall though...
I added Slowbro to High, not really sure what to do with Slowking. Is it different enough to be Mid?
I held off on Growlithe and Staryu until we figure out just how we should handle stone evolutions. I'm a little biased toward them, admittedly, as I've always been the type to go out of my way to get things like that (I like the Pokeathlon, see Round 3/4 of the Orange League for proof) but I admit they're time-consuming. Same for Voltorb Flip, though I'm a little weird in being willing to go through that for things like Staryu.
There's a lot of odd quirks in HGSS that really do need discussion before decisions are quickly made and I'm willing to have this take a while (which it will).
Meanwhile, sure, we'll consider Kanto matchups, that seems fine to me considering HGSS has some good stuff post-E4. Actually, a lot of good stuff.
As a last note, I'd like maybe another word on Miltank from someone new just for confirmation, I'm really leaning high.
Edit: Can we talk about whether to split mid? We have three options.
1. Keep it as is.
2. Split to Upper Mid and Lower Mid.
3. Split to Upper Mid, Mid, and Lower Mid.
I'm fine with any of the three, honestly. I just worry Mid will get very crowded as is.
Pokemon that need evolution stones definitely shouldn't be placed into a lower tier automatically in HGSS. In GSC yeah I'd agree, G/S in particular because you don't even have the luxury of random phone calls.
In HGSS though they're available at the Pokeathlon for 2500 points, and the way to get them quickly is to play on the jump course. It might get boring, but it's very fast. Firstly the events are incredibly easy to not only win, but get a high score in; you don't even need Pokemon that are good at jumping to win Hurdle Dash or Disc Jump (the frisbee one, I forget the real name). The AI is pathetic in all 3 events, to the point where you won't be worried about winning at all and instead just concerned with how much you can win by. Secondly the events are really really short and take virtually no effort. It's not like relay run where you're dashing round and round a track for 90 seconds, having to avoid stuff. Lamp Jump is basically swiping down with the stylus over and over, Disc Jump is pathetic (stand on the 5 point strip at the back, the AI miss the majority of frisbees) and Hurdle Dash just requires a bit of tapping. In terms of length Lamp Jump and Disc Jump are both only a minute I think and Hurdle Dash takes 30 - 40 seconds (it's as fast as your slowest Pokemon). You can therefore complete the entire course in 4 or 5 minutes with menu/results time factored in and reap well over 500 points in victory thanks to the 100 point win bonus. Spamming jump course 5 times therefore nets you a stone in 20 - 25 minutes, which I think is pretty good.
Compare this to other games. In RSE you've got 1 of each stone until you have Dive, barring Water which you can't even get until after Dive. In DPPt you'll find a few dotted around, maybe 2 of each, and you can get more from the underground, which could take 2 minutes or literally hours. The original GSC is legendary obv, and B/W offers I think 1 of each dotted around and then forces you to waste time searching in dust clouds. Honestly the only games that beat HGSS in stone availability are RBY/FRLG (you can just buy them it's amazing) and B/W2, where I think one streak at the Battle Subway nets you a stone. The stones in this game are quick to obtain and infinite (meaning competition for evolution is not an issue unlike the originals or DPPt), but unlike most other infinite stones you don't have to rely on luck. Overuse the jump course and they're rather efficient to obtain (they're also available pretty darn early).
ITA about Voltorb Flip TMs though. It takes forever and the 10000 coin price is ridiculous, IMHO it takes 2 to 3 hours unless you get insanely lucky with that whole Level 8 thing. I seriously think GF should have divided all the TM costs by 10 for worldwide HGSS, it would make everything so much more affordable and you'd still have to spend some time in the Game Corner since early levels of Voltorb Flip don't even get you 100 coins.
tl;dr don't penalise evolution stone pokemon, stones are really quick to obtain through jump course spam, voltorb flip still sucks
Diana, Slowking and Slowbro are similar enough and in a similar enough boat that they should have the same tiering. If Slowbro was going to be Top, I might consider Slowking High, but there's really little point in splitting if we keep Slowbro in High (which I do think is a good rank for it).
Agreeing with Daimondfan that the evolution stone pokes probably shouldn't get penalized.
We tried to keep the X-items out of tiering as much as possible, but just mentioned the trick for the Pokemon with those moves.
Setup moves in general are kinda meh, and Pokemon that rely on them are subsequently inferior to things that can just mow down enemies without boosting. I'd guess Nasty Plot would be quite useful for setting up on Clair's Gyarados (need to keep Confusion in this case), Will (sorta?), Koga (lets you get to the point where you can OHKO Forry with Surf, avoiding the need for Fire Blast), and of course set up on Lance's Gyarados (though as mentioned, Slowbro + Slack Off is probably better here because all his pokes bar Gyarados are weak to Water + Ice, and have really strong physical moves)
The really notable point amongst these is that Slowking is superior v. Clair, which I did mention (though I did miss that Nasty Plot + Confusion could fix your how-to-beat-kingdra problem).
As mentioned, you're forgetting the repel trick.
As mentioned, Slowpoke's contributions will be minimal compared to the amount of experience he'll suck. You want to give him a slice of the massive Miltank Pie? No way-- that one enemy can give 1-2 levels to one of your more useful Pokemon. If you're using the traded Machop (that's basically tailor made to kill Miltank), that thing could jump 3 levels by taking that battle exclusively.
EVs are great, but nowhere near as important as levels in-game; and Slowbro will definitely pick up EVes through all the battles you will end up relying on him for in the tail end of the game. It's not like he'll need EVes to mow down enemy trainers, as Slowbro has type advantage against most of the trainers/gyms on the routes immediately following Ecruteak.
I like to finish with a team of 6, and the whole in-game tiering is based on the premise of training more Pokemon (as close to a full team as possible).
High-Level / Powerful Pokemon have always been a key ingredient of an efficient run, starting from Zapdos and Snorlax in RBY.
No, but you're not going to catch/train a wild Magikarp when you can get the Red Gyarados right? Same thing here.
Considering Slowbro (and Slowking) will have High Tier performance, early game Slowpoke would also need High Tier performance to merit mentioning it over its evolutions. That just isn't happening when you compare it to truly good early game stuff like Geodude and Machop, or even Abra, Spearow, and Ghastly. Hell, you can even get a Heracross only slightly after the point you can get Slowpoke.
It definitely is.
Don't forget that Evo Stones are obtainable in Pokeathlon, but only certain days. For example Fire Stone only Tuesdays(before National Dex)
There isn't much of an issue really, but annoys if you are also playing other games that rely on DS clock.
And playing over, over and over the minigames of Pokeathlon becomes tiring and boring.
Edit: I have just tried by myself, 488 points(388 + 100 by winning) using two Scythers and Rattata on the Speed Course, 7 minutes counting since entering to the Pokeathlon minigame until out of it)
Scythers may be replaced by Rattata or Gastly which have better availability.
The PokeAthlon is Hell on emulators, by the way.
Anyway, GODDAMNIT MISSY. I haven't been able to get a female for awhile now. Hunting in the Safari Zone. I'm already putting it on Mid or below unless it amazes me.
Buy a DS then! :P
Missy is meant to be rare, in G/S Missy and ghastly/haunter/gengar were the only ghost types around, and you had to trade haunter to get gengar.
Not doing much for Missy's placement, but... you know...
Just a note though, from what I can remember from using one once Missy has a brilliant movepool!
7 minutes for 512 points(412 + 100 winning bonus) in Jump Course of Pokeathlon.
2 Scythers and a Rattata, Scythers may be replaced by Rattata or Gastly.
I may be mistaken about Pokeathlon, I have bad memories from getting the Fire Stone in the Pokeathlon for a Vulpix ingame getting tired from playing too much for this.
What happens about Pokeathlon in Emulators? Touching Screen isn't accurate?
iirc it lags extremely horribly to the point of unplayable
I have just tried lottery in Goldenrod's Department Store.
1st try: around 2500 spent by getting the TM
2nd try: around 5000 spent by getting the TM
3rd try: I ran out of money, but I had spent 5000
I used to play a lot that lottery, in my experience, it takes less than 10 000 to get the TM. While, the lottery rewards a berry or a Pokeball in a ratio around of 50%
Berries are still useful even not growing them, is like having Antidote, Burn Heal...
What means that?
Since TM of Flash Cannon and Charge Beam may be obtained by this way, they are not that difficult to get for Magnemite.
The most important TM is Flash Cannon, that powerful attack before Morty is really interesting. Charge Beam can also be obtained after Morty because it is also in Olivine using Surf(Morty's badge allows Surf)
Magnemite still has Thunder in Goldenrod's Department Store, but better leave it when missing is not a concern.
Also we all have to thank Game Freak for the absurdly awful availability of the TM Shock Wave which is given by Lt. Surge after defeating him, an almost filler TM that is not much a concern wasting it ingame due the fact that is almost useless in competitive(like Bullet Seed in non 5th gen games)
Maybe they did it because the non-written rule of "Gym leaders give unique TM" and Thunder Wave TM is too good to make it unique.
Well if you run it alongside Gyarados you can just keep Slowbro as your Special Water (Surf, Fire Blast, Psychic, Shadow Ball/Slack Off) and Gyarados as your physical Water (Waterfall, Dragon Dance, Ice Fang, Earthquake/Taunt).
to be honest if i want to use Gyarados i probably wouldn't consider taking something else that shares a weakness (electric). plus Gyarados is extremely versatile: even if you don't like it in the very least its still a hm slave with access to strength surf waterfall and rock smash
Touche about Repel to get the high-levelled Slowbros out. Anyway, Slowpoke isn't nearly as bad as you paint it to be earlygame (dual STABs is good) and referring to its speed when talking about offensive bases isn't saying anything when its evolved forms aren't outspeeding anything ever unless Quick Claw is kicking in. You may not like using Slowpoke until Surf makes it a hard hitter (and the option of an evolved Slowpoke is there), but it's there, it does things and deserves a mention for that reason. It's definitely no Magikarp, so I don't think that's an effective comparison.
Training 6 Pokemon as a rule leads to a lot of Pokemon becoming inferior than if you had more exp to share around and stealing exp from team mates making everybody else slightly weaker. I'd argue that catching a Heracross alone (not touching upon how good Heracross is here) costs you a lot more experience than catching a lv. 25 Slowpoke to trade-evolve immediately.
I have quite a bit of experience with the lottery - I never had to reset much to get one without spending much money. Magnemite probably makes the best use of the TMs offered followed by anyone with Guts / normal-type.
Of course it's no Magikarp, but it's definitely not a high-tier performer in the early game. Where as Slowbro is a high-tier performer where he shows up, and at a high level; as is level 25 Slowking (though as mentioned, I'd go with bro-- but both are high tier level).
Slowpoke's issue isn't Speed-- it's being extremely under leveled, a mediocre offensive stats, and mediocre defensive ones on top of its Speed. Low Defenses + Low Speed = low survivability; throw in very mediocre offensive power and you've got a big pita. Maybe not low-tier level pita, but definitely nothing like the efficiency slowbro/slowking perform at post Ecruteak.
They can also be used, though I always thought Shadow Ball and Psychic were the opposite way around.
I'm gonna say butterfree should be mid tier, its availability is great it has the most practical sleep move in the game with a 97 accurate sleep powder, though lack of a boosting move is dissipointing it does well early game and its psychic attacks are very useful for team rocket
I'm gonna say Haunter/Gengar is high tier. It's availability along with its speed and strength make it an extremely reliable Pokemon to use in-game. It also has a wide movepool to be used including: thunderbolt, focus blast, psychic, shadow ball, dark pulse, sludge bomb, etc. Definitely deserves top tier (along with Totodile).
Obtaining TM Thunderbolt in Game Corner may take 6 hours at least, to say something.... not eficient.
Psychic TM only in Kanto, TM Focus Blast is only learned by Gengar and low accuracy moves are not advisable in-game.
TM Dark Pulse is obtainable on Victory Road, however, Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse have the same coverage, Shadow Ball is better because Normal Types are rare out of Goldenrod's Gym, Haunter/Gengar anyways has Sludge Bomb and receives STAB on it.
TM Thunder is also only available to Gengar to learn, which is a shame, because it would be useful in Gastly against mons that can do little against it, generally most pokemon which only have Normal moves, so it can afford to miss.
Really Haunter/Gengar only needs Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb which all two are renewable TM.
Sludge Bomb is more powerful and to hits Normal Types/the rare and few Dark Types and makes up for the "low"(15) PP of Shadow Ball.
In neutral situations, Shadow Ball for weak opponents, and Sludge Bomb for strong opponents, because Sludge has less PP(10) than Shadow Ball.
With these two attacks, Gengar misses Steels, but, out of Magnemite/ton which is not that common, are incredible uncommon.
The main disadvantage of Haunter/Gengar is its movepool sucks until level 33 until it learns Shadow Ball(however Night Shade at 15 is "decent"). However in the start of the game most opponents only have Normal type attacks, due the weak-powered attacks Gastly has, takes time to defeat its opponents.
At least it has a great utility against Bugsy and Whitney, against Bugsy, when it's Scyther is the last mon of his team, using Curse against it and against Whitney, Cursing it's Miltank.
If grinding Gastly until envolving to Haunter, Gastly when envolves to Haunter learns Shadow Punch, which is very useful in Ecruteak's Gym.
If traded, Gengar may defeat Morty's Gengar when grinded in the Gym.
During Mid-Game, when gets Shadow Ball becomes so good, only suffers from Jasmine, and while is not a clean sweep against Clair, can do severe damage.
In E4, smashes Will, Koga and Bruno, however against Bruno will need help because his strong physical moves.
This is theoryzing, but probably not much away from reality.