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HeartGold and SoulSilver ingame tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Diana, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. x42bn6

    x42bn6

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    It's Physical, but it's the only real coverage move it has. However, you're not really going to level it up at Victory Road, so you will only ever use it against underleveled opponents, where it is adequate.
  2. Antihaxxer

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    Growlithe (SS) come with Goldenroad, has a good natural movepool (Bite, Crunch, Fire moves), the only problem is Fire Stone ...

    Vulpix is worse but exists in HG.

    Slugma has the best movepool, comes very early (thx Primo) but has the worst speed and late evolution.

    Yeah other fire type are not so great ...
  3. Diana

    Diana Fennekin the cutest
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    Magneton is actually fantastic on its own. Magnezone exists, yes, but Magneton is still strong, has good resistances (13 of them, seriously), and has slightly better Speed than Magnezone does. Magneton isn't really missing out on much.

    Cyndaquil is in the top five Pokemon you can use in a run easily. I can't imagine it not being Top. Remember Chikorita? Cyndaquil crushes most things Chikorita struggles against, plus it's usually better against neutral things. It isn't killing absolutely everything by itself but this is Pokemon so nothing does.

    Kadabra is probably High for me but I can be talked into Top with a couple more opinions. That Abra stage is kind of a pain and it's frail but you're killing things so usefully with even just Kadabra... Kind of wish it still got the punches like it did in GSC though.

    Preliminary listing of Sentret in Mid, Cyndaquil and Totodile in Top, and Nidoran-M and Nidoran-F in High.
  4. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Sentret should be low, it has terrible power and even after it evolves it is still pretty bad. Although I guess it has some use as a HM slave of sorts if needed.

    I'd like to throw up Miltank for high.

    Name: Miltank- Tier High
    Availability: Right after getting to Ecruteak. Only 3 gyms down by that point, and Miltank starts off with Stomp (at level 13).
    Stats: Good Defence backed up by good Speed and decent bulk in general. Attack is a little lacking, but you still hit pretty hard.
    Typing: Normal. not a lot you can say here really.
    Movepool: Stomp initially is great for the flinch chances, Body Slam for Paralysis support, Zen Headbutt lets you hit fighting types (if you decide to stay in). Flinch moves are good given her great speed.

    Major Battles: As long as you have Scrappy, you pretty much demolish Morty. Obviously looses badly in Chucks Gym, but might be able to spring some flinch hax/take a hit before failing totally. Jasmine again is off limits too. Past that however, and you're free to hit anything you like. With Thick Fat (And without) you deal solid damage against Pryce's super weak Pokémon and she can hold her own against Clair. She holds herself in the Elite 4 as well (Minus Bruno). Mine ended up with something like Body Slam, Strength, Zen Headbutt and Rollout I think and it was solid. Normal typing is good in general ingame.

    Additional Comments: Definitely go with Scrappy if you can. Thick Fat may be of a bit of use later against Pryce and then possible Lance (Those Dragonites placing the random Blizzard/Fire Blast). Slow to level but I doubt most would notice the difference.
  5. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Furret has 76 base attack, 4 points lower than Miltank's base, so I feel you may judging Furret by its competitive usage (where it shouldn't appear besides joke teams) rather than what it does in-game. Furret (caught earliest as Sentret and trained) and Miltank at the same levels (which doesn't happen in practice because Miltank is pretty underlevelled when you can first get one) should have around the same firepower, Furret possibly more depending on how many Pokemon providing attack EVs you fought on your way (which could be a lot knowing you've passed three gyms and five towns). Furret also beats Miltank in availability, and has powerful Return as a result of being around for so long, not to mention Dig and Shadow Claw access for coverage which Miltank lacks.

    Furret's rather poor at taking hits though, but not entirely bad with 85 base HP and just average defensive bases.

    Factoring in Furret's superior availability, I'd say he and Miltank are about equally good for in-game purposes. Furret might be OHKOing more for a longer period of time.
  6. Steamroll

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    Growlithe (open)
    Name: Growlithe - High
    Availability: (HG only) Routes 7-8, 36-37, 48. ~Level 13-15 on Routes 36-37 and ~Level 21-25 on Route 48.
    Stats: Sporting good Attack and Special Attack stats along with average Speed makes it a rather impeccable attacker mid-late game for gym challenges. However it sports below average HP, Defense, and Special Defense meaning that it is not the best at taking stronger neutral and super effective hits. Its Defense gets a pseudo boost thanks to Intimidate and makes it passable taking physical hits.
    Typing: Mono Fire-typing is both a blessing and a curse at this point in the game. It's a blessing because unless you picked Cyndaquil, Growlithe will be your first Fire-type encounter in the entire game and its STAB attack will definitely help for future gym leaders Jasmine and Pryce, along with being a strong move to use throughout the middle portion of the game. It is a curse because the short term journey ahead has an overwhelming amount of Water-types along with an overwhelming amount of Rock-types throughout Victory Road, making it a pain to train at times.
    Movepool: Growlithe gets no brownie points early on for its movepool, the only notable ones upon capture are Bite (chance of not having it), Flame Wheel (Lv. 20), and Reversal (Lv. 25). At level 34 Growlithe finally starts to bloom with the learning of Flamethrower. At Level 42 it learns Crunch and at Level 48 it learns the extremely powerful Flare Blitz. Upon evolution with a Fire Stone (only available from an NPC and the Pokeathlon before the E4) into Arcanine and with a Heart Scale it can learn Extremespeed, a moderately powerful move guaranteed to pick off weakened opponents that may outspeed you.
    Major Battles: If captured with Bite on Routes 36 and 37, Growlithe will be a huge help against Morty by providing a strong super-effective attack to take out his Haunter and Gengar. Growlithe should sit out the battle against Chuck, as both his Pokemon know moves that will heavily damage, if not OHKO Growlithe entirely. If Growlithe is leveled up enough and has learned Flamethrower (Lv. 34) or you spent $5500 and got Fire Blast at the Dept. Store, you'll have an easy battle against Jasmine, just watch out for Steelix's Rock Throw. Team Rocket will definitely not enjoy Growlithe bar the occasional Houndour and Houndoom. Pryce will also be a relative cakewalk but his Piloswine can pose a threat with Mud Bomb. Growlithe should sit out against Clair since its attacks won't pose much threat against Clair at all. Your Rival's team is surprisingly weak to two of Growlithe's attacks bar his starter (unless it's Meganium) and Golbat. In the Elite Four battles, Growlithe/Arcanine can dispose of Will single handedly with Crunch and eliminate a good part of Koga's team with its Fire STAB. Arcanine does pose some use against Lance thanks to the TM for Dragon Pulse, but it should be avoided since all of Lance's Pokemon have incredibly powerful moves that will harm Arcanine severely before it can put Dragon Pulse to use.
    Additional Comments: While Growlithe does not stand out much upon capture, by really only being useful against Morty and being dead weight afterwards up until the battle against Jasmine. It has a slower than normal growth rate but that is remedied later on by the Ice Cave and the plethora of trainers before going into Victory Road. Growlithe is a good tool against the Rival at various points in the game, and really stands out from Jasmine up to the final battle in the Elite Four by being an incredibly powerful attacker. After the first Elite Four battle, Growlithe/Arcanine has a lot of use through the Kanto Region against various trainers along with the gym battles against Sabrina and Erika.


    EDIT #6: If they haven't already been reserved, I'd like to reserve Heracross, Zubat, Wooper, Mareep, Slugma (egg from Primo), and Tauros.

    EDIT #7: Forgot Raticate.
  7. Its_A_Random

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    [​IMG]
    Staryu: - High Tier
    Availability: Route 47 (Surf, 10%, Day only), Route 19, 34, 40, 47, Olivine City, Union Cave, and Cherry Grove (Fish, 3% w/ Good Rod, 30% w/ Super Rod, Night Only). Obtainable as early as the Third Badge.
    Stats: Staryu is a Pokémon definitely geared towards being a Special Sweeper, with an acceptable Base 100 Sp. Attack as a Starmie, as well as a tremendous 115 Speed. Its bulk of 60 HP/85 Defence/85 Sp. Defence leaves much to be desired, but when you can outspeed an deal lots of damage, it does not tend to matter much.
    Typing: As a Staryu, it is a mono-water, and becomes a Water/Psychic upon evolution. The Psychic-Type gained gives it three extra nasty weaknesses to Bug, Ghost, and Dark, alongside Electric and Grass, but also gives you a nifty Fighting and Psychic resist if needed, alongside the resistances Water already gives you.
    Movepool: Staryu has a so-so level-up movepool, but it has nifty moves including Recover, Camouflage, Power Gem, Hydro Pump, and Light Screen, but where Staryu really shines is through the coverage it gains from TM's. Electric, Ice, and STAB Psychic coverage as a Starmie can really set it up. It even gets the three water-based HM's in Surf, Waterfall, and Whirlpool. In the end you will probably be likely to use Surf/Hydro Pump, Thunder/Thunderbolt, Blizzard/Ice Beam, and a filler, since that is all Starmie basically needs to be effective. It should be noted that if you plan to go for Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, be prepared to shell out some time on Voltorb Flip...So unless you seriously hate Focus Blast level reliability, or you are contempt with the idea of spending hours on end at the Voltorb Flip, you are better off just shelling out 11k at the Goldenrod Department Store to buy the Blizzard and Thunder TM's. Also, no STAB Psychic coverage until after the E4 sucks a lot.
    Major Battles:
    -Rival #3 (Assuming you went out of your way to get Staryu): Gastly and Zubat are winnable, Magnemite is generally a no, wins against Quilava, can win against Croconaw if you have invested in Electric Coverage, and unlikely to beat Bayleef with Ice Coverage.
    -Morty: You virtually lose to Gengar as either Staryu is too fragile to withstand a Shadow Ball, or Starmie suffers from being a Psychic-Type with that Ghost weakness. The Gastly and two Haunter are winnable, especially if you have Starmie, as you can bash through them in one or two hits, and you can use Awakening to take advantage of the Sleep shenanigans one of the two Haunter provides.
    -Chuck: Chuck is winnable, as with Starmie, you can plough through Primeape with Surf, and spam Thunder/bolt against Poliwrath for the win.
    -Jasmine: Unless you are certain you can OHKO with Surf, keep Starmie away from the Magnemite, but Steelix can easily be handled with Starmie's STAB Surf.
    -Petrel #1: Zubat and Koffing fall like flies, but beware of Raticate and its Dark Coverage.
    -Ariana #1: Assuming you have evolved, all of Ariana's Pokémon have SE Coverage, but Lance teams up with you this encounter, so things tend to be easier, especially he targets Ariana.
    -Pryce: Seel and Dewgong fall to Electric coverage, while STAB Surf ruins Piloswine.
    -Rival #4: Golbat falls to Electric Coverage, be wary when taking on Haunter, Sneasel, and Magnemite, Quilava is easy, Feraligatr can be troublesome, but falls to Electric coverage, while Ice coverage can take care of Meganium, but STAB Petal Dance will give you troubles.
    -Petrel #2: STAB Surf downs the five Koffing, and can deal a large dent in Weezing, who cannot do much back bar exploding.
    -Proton #2: Golbat gets zapped, Weezing gets drowned by Surf. Luckily this Weezing does not blow up.
    -Ariana #2: A troublesome encounter as Arbok can just Crunch you while Surf can only 2HKO at best with no crits, Vileplume survives an Ice Beam and can deal lots with Mega Drain, and you can take out Murkrow with Electric/Ice coverage, as long as you out-speed.
    -Archer: Seems troublesome, but not really. Houndour and Houndoom falls to Surf, provided you outspeed, and Koffing is nothing special to deal with.
    -Clair: Gyarados falls to Thunder/Thunderbolt, the two Dragonair fall to Blizzard/Ice Beam, and Kingdra is a bit of a challenge, as you have to rely on your Electric/Ice coverage to prevail.
    -Kimono Girls: Lose to Umbreon and Jolteon, win against Flareon and Vaporeon, and Espeon is so-so.
    -Rival #5: Likely to lose to Sneasel, Golbat and Kadabra are winnable, Lose to Magneton unless you hit hard enough, Haunter is shaky, then there is your Rival's starter. Beat Typhlosion, can beat Feraligatr and Meganium if you hit hard enough.
    -Will: Bolt-beam coverage and Water coverage is all you need. The Xatu fall to bolt-beam, Exeggutor falls to Ice coverage if you can OHKO, Slowbro gets zapped, and Jynx cannot take repeated Surfs.
    -Koga: This encounter is so much easier of you had Psychic Coverage...Ariados falls to Surf if you are strong enough, but beware Giga Drain, Venomoth also falls to Surf, with no Bug Coverage helping, Forretress can blow you up, but Surf can deal lots to it still, Muk is annoying as fuck, but Surf can wear it down. Finally, bolt-beam takes care of Crobat.
    -Bruno: Proof that Starmie badly needed Psychic coverage before the E4. Hitmontop fails to do much to Starmie, likewise Hitmonlee, though Hi Jump Kick can still deal impressive damage. You lose to Hitmonchan's Thunderpunch spam, while Onix falls to Surf. Machamp can deal hefty damage with Rock Slide, but repeated Surfs will suffice.
    -Karen: Murkrow and Houndoom aside, who Starmie can deal with effectively bar Sucker Punch from Murkrow, the other three really give Starmie headaches.
    -Lance: The three Dragonite have a serious case of Ice coverage headaches, Gyarados falls to Electric coverage, whilst Surf drowns Charizard and Aerodactyl, though Aerodactyl has Crunch and will outspeed unless Starmie has a Choice Scarf on, so watch out there.
    Additional Comments: Staryu can be obtained pretty early, and you can get a Starmie virtually straight away, since you can get the Water Stone via the Pokéathlon Shop on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Fridays. Staryu suffers from slow growth, a low encounter rate, and has one ability (Natural Cure) that is infinitely better than the other (Illuminate). Even at a level as low as the mid-30's, Starmie can fare well against the E4 with a Choice Scarf, and there is no real "terrible" match-up before Kanto per se. In Kanto, it gains Psychic-Coverage, and can continue to shine, destroying Janine, Brock, and Blaine, and can really give Misty a run for her money. Ultimately, the idea to using Starmie is to abuse its good Sp. Attack, Speed, and its great Water/Electric/Ice coverage, and by doing exactly that, Starmie will rarely ever let you down.
  8. NoUserName

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    The only Evolution Stone obtainable from the Bug Catching Contest is Sun Stone until obtaining the National Dex.

    So, the only ways of obtaining Fire and Water Stone is by Pokeathlon, which is slow(around 300 points winning and that Evo Stones cost 2500) or by gift of certain Trainers, but as I remember, is fairly rare.


    Treat TM of Ice Beam, Thunderbolt and Flamethrower as unobtainable, because Game Freak smoked too much to not to allow buying coins at the Game Corner and the minigame of Voltorb is tooo slow.
    Ice Beam at least is useful in Kanto because it is at Seafoam Islands. Thunderbolt at Cerulean Cave and Flamethrower at Route 28. outside of Mt. Silver.
  9. Its_A_Random

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    Noted, good catch.
    Generally, you would want to evolve Staryu as soon as possible from when you get it, given its Level-Up movepool is nothing to write home about, & the Pokéathlon is the only reliable way to get Water Stones before the E4, given where this tier list is covering up to. Also, you can gain in excess of 400 Points per Pokéathlon course, so you normally can generally get enough points to buy a Water Stone in 5-10 runs.
    Yes Voltorb Flip is slow, & yes you cannot buy coins, but because you can buy the TM's through it in Goldenrod, they are still "obtainable". I should note that unless you are willing to spend many hours on the Voltorb Flip, which is generally if you are insane, you are better off just going to the Goldenrod Department Store to buy Blizzard & Thunder...
  10. TM13IceBeam

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    Wouldn't this be dependent on what version of HGSS are you playing? JP versions contain slot machines and buyable coins.

    Also, would it be possible for Quilava to get away with getting Fire Blast as early as Whitney? It's been a while since I last played HGSS, but assuming you're capable of amassing the 5.5k needed for the TM, Fire Blast Quilava can easily be your strongest attack for quite a while (aside from say, Technician Wing Attack Scyther)
  11. Lucchini

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    IMHO the Voltorb Flip exclusives should not be considered, though a mention will do. Clearly they're better than their powerful buyable counterparts but time is an issue. I think everything that takes a stone to evolve could drop a tier, too, since it's essentially the equivalent of training a Magikarp up (just without the battling and no glorious final stage, not as good as Gyarados anyway).

    Some more powerful attacks than Quilava's Fire Blast at that point:

    Solarbeam Sunflora
    Hyper Beam Stantler, Noctowl, Togetic (if it evolves)
    Thunder Flaaffy ties in power
    Brick Break Heracross probably approximately of the same power without requiring a TM (and also decent PP/no (re-)charge).
    Focus Blast Alakazam is also feasible at this point
    Guts Raticate

    You can make Friend Balls by now, so Returns should be fairly powerful on normal-types too.

    It might be an expensive investment for Whitney but one you might make if you have trouble dealing with Miltank, I guess. Quilava isn't nearly as troubled by lack of good fire STAB in HG/SS though, but once you're out of Goldenrod you start getting so much money that you might as well get some expensive TMs from its department store.
  12. Steamroll

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    Heracross: - Top Tier
    Availability: Found in both games through various trees around Johto that can be headbutted. Can be found as low as Level 2 in Azalea Town.
    Stats: Heracross sports an incredibly high attack stat, in fact the highest Attack stat by any Pokemon at its earliest encounter in the games through legal means. Heracross also sports 80/75/95 Defenses, so it will be able to take most neutral attacks throughout the game. Heracross also has an average speed stat which shouldn't be depended on all the time.
    Typing: Heracross has Bug and Fighting-typing. Bug typing gives Heracross resistances to Fighting, Ground, and Grass attacks, the latter two which aren't common through most of the game. Fighting-type gives Heracross a resistance to Bug- and Dark-type moves, but both are incredibly rare themselves through the entirety of the game. On the opposite end, Heracross has a crippling 4x weakness to Flying-type moves, but thankfully Flying-types aren't all that common outside of the obvious bird trainers. Heracross also has weaknesses to Fire-type and Psychic-type moves but neither are commonly used outside of your rival and Will in the Elite Four, so there are very few opportunities where Heracross isn't all that useful.
    Movepool: Early on Heracross doesn't have that strong of a movepool, its only glimmers of hope are Horn Attack, Aerial Ace, and Brick Break learned by default and levels 13 and 19, respectively. It may seem that Heracross looks weak early on, but thanks to its monster Attack stat Heracross can trudge its way through most of the Johto region with little resistance. Heracross really begins to turn into a monster at Level 37 by learning Close Combat, and at Level 55 learns Megahorn which sadly won't be practical until after the first Elite Four battle (unless you grind to hell). With a Heart Scale that you can find either through Rock Smashing or at the Pokeathlon, Heracross can be taught Night Slash via the Move Relearner in Blackthorn City. Heracross's learning pool may be shallow but its raw power definitely comes in handy throughout the game.
    Major Battles: Heracross's only real issue throughout the Johto part of HGSS is Morty, mainly because Heracross can only attack his pokemon with Aerial Ace while they can easily wipe it away with Shadow Balls. Beyond Morty, Heracross is a huge help against Whitney and her Miltank upon learning Brick Break and can also easily handle Chuck with Aerial Ace. Jasmine and Pryce are both easily handled by Heracross thanks to Brick Break. Team Rocket can easily be beaten with neutral attacks from Heracross, and they can even lead to their own demise if one is unfortunate enough to Poison or Burn Heracross if it has Guts. Although some other Pokemon may have issues with Clair, Heracross benefits greatly with its strong Attack stat and the added benefit of Close Combat, the only real issue would be Clair's Gyarados. Heracross is also at a distinct advantage against most of the Rival's team, being able to beat Sneasel, Magneton, Kadabra, Haunter, and Meganium with Close Combat, Aerial Ace, and Night Slash. Will, Bruno, and Karen will not be all too hard with Heracross either, but it would be wise to make sure you have a few Ethers on you due to Close Combat's pitiful 5 PP. Heracross can also help against some of Koga's team but should definitely stay out of the battle with Lance, since its strongest attack is resisted by almost all of Lance's team. After the Elite Four, Heracross comes in handy again through the Kanto region against the likes of Brock, Lt. Surge (if you teach it Earthquake via TM), Erika, Sabrina, Janine, and parts of Blue's team, too.
    Additional Comments: Heracross can be found at the earliest in Azalea Town thanks to the Headbutt tutor, but that will only be available after you've beaten Bugsy and your Rival. Heracross is one of the best Pokemon to use through the game, but its encounters are held strictly to Headbutting trees which can be quite a tedious task. Beyond that little set back once Heracross is on your team you will greatly enjoy its presence throughout the entire storyline of the game, and its power will surely get you out of a sticky situation if the need arises.
  13. Lucchini

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    Can't Heracross nail Morty with Shadow Claw?
  14. Its_A_Random

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    Just a nitpick with the Magnemite analysis, but it should be noted that Magnezone can only be obtained via trade from DPPt—Magneton evolves by evolving at Mt. Coronet in Gen IV, & Mt. Coronet does not exist in HG/SS. So that is a pretty big downer for it... :/
  15. NoUserName

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    Actually I was thinking to mention it when I wrote that, but, aside from emulators, most of you aren't going to play Japanese Version anyways.

    Also that TM cost 10 000 coins, like Porygon in Red/Yellow/RF....

    Magneton is still very usable, also Magneton is a bit faster.
    What hinders Magneton is the fact that not having a decent special Electric attack by Leveling Up until lv40(TM Thunder is available, but relying to Thunder to not to miss is not much desirable.
    Magneton complains to the physical/special split in 4th gen because Spark becomes physical.

    There is a Charge Beam TM at Olivine Surfing or by the lottery of Goldenrod's Department Store(only a day of the week and resetting....)

    Or Discharge at level 40...

    While Steel sucks offensively, Electric+Steel is a good attacking combination,only misses Electrics IIRC which are fairly rare. However, Magneton in HGSS fails at doing it, because no special Steel moves by leveling up, only Flash Cannon in the lottery of Goldenrod's Department Store(only a day of the week and resetting....)

    It's a shame, Magneton with TBolt and Flash Cannon would be great ingame.
  16. Chou Toshio

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    Slowbro: Maybe it should be Top tier? It comes at a great level, is useful for almost all the important matchups later in the game (and is useful against the rockets too), has great typing/stats/movepool. I only consider high tier because it's annoying to have to walk all the way back from Ecruteak to Azalea to get it, and it requires the Golden Rod 5500 Yen TMs (Fire Blast / Blizzard) to be really effective. Blizzard's accuracy/low PP are really annoying too; but you have to go through a LOT of effort to get the Ice Beam TM.

    [​IMG]Slowbro (Slowpoke)
    High Tier
    Availability:
    Slowpoke is available really early, at the Slow Poke Well; however it is almost pointless to get it at this point in the game. It will come at an unbearably pathetic level of 6-8, making it horribly under-leveled to face Bugsy's Kakuna/Metapod, let Alone Scyther and its super effective U-Turn. Slowpoke is also useless against Whitney's Milktank, and against the powerful Shadow Ball attacks of Morty's Pokemon.

    However, after passing through Ecruteak city, you can bump into a hiker at the beginning of Route 42 (east of Ecruteak) to find yourself with both the Surf and Strength HMs-- the moves you need to get access to the second level of the Slowpoke well. It's a long walk all the way back to Azalea from Ecruteak, but it's worth it-- with the Repel trick, you can get yourself a Level 30 fully evolved Slowbro! (specific: Slowbro 10% Encounter Surfing, levels 15-30)
    Note: You can also catch a level 25 Slowpoke and use the King's Rock found here to get Slowking, but Slowbro is so much better (just by being 5 levels higher). Slowking gets Nasty Plot, but it doesn't get Slack Off by level up-- only way to get a Slack Off Slowking is to raise Slowpoke to level 39. Most likely you won't bother with Slack Off and just use Hyper Potions instead.

    Assuming you get a very high leveled Slowbro, it should be at the same level or better than the rest of your team!
    Stats: Slowbro has fantastic stats. It is one of the most physically bulky non-legendary Pokemon in the game, let alone in-game. It's Special Bulk is not too shabby either, and 100 Special Attack makes it a real power house! Unfortunately, it is slow, so you'll most likely be needing to pack healing items for when Slowbro inevitably gets outsped and statused along the way. Slowking is the same but reversed defensive stats (handicapped by being at a lower level on capture).
    Typing: Slowbro has terrific typing-- useful resistances, and weaknesses that are very rare in the latter half of the Johto (you've already cleared the Bug and Ghost gyms-- Karen is the only major opponent Slowbro has a type disadvantage against). It does have some repetitiveness with Red Gyarados, but you are going to need both Surf and Waterfall on your adventure anyway-- and having 2 Water-types can be great in-game.
    Movepool: Slowbro's Movepool is amazing. It comes with Water Pulse and Confusion, but you can immediately teach it the very powerful Surf. It also learns Zen Head Butt at level 34, and Slowbro has just enough ATK to make decent use of it. Unfortunately, Psychic does come at a very late level of 54, but in the mean time you can try some TMs. While a bit pricy (oh come on, you can afford it), Slowbro can learn both Fire Blast and Blizzard, both sold at Golden Rod's department store for 5500 Yen. It can even use Shadow Ball, though this move understandably has more competition. As icing on the cake, Slowbro learns Slack Off at level 41. Slowking has the same movepool + Nasty Plot (-Slack Off essentially)
    Major Battles:
    Chuck-- You have an absolute advantage against Poliwrath, Primeape, and everything else in this gym. There is literally nothing any of the trainers here can do to pierce your slimy armor. You will also very likely be at a higher level than the Gym leader's Pokemon.
    Jasmine-- Slowbro can't take on the Magnemites (who have Thunderbolt), but Slowbro switches into Steelix effortlessly and destroys it with Surf.
    Pryce-- You resist every attack on his team except for Piloswine's Mud Bomb (you destroy swine with Surf, and its SpA is pathetic), and Seel's Snore (lol). However, Dewgong has Rest / Sleep Talk, and Dewgong actually resists your Fire Blast (Thick Fat). This could be an annoying fight-- you might want to level up to 34 and get Zen Head Butt if you want to tackle Dewgong with Slowbro. Level 34 Slowbro's Zen Head Butt can 3 HKO Level 32 Dewgong.
    Clair-- Not the best matchup for Slowbro, as everything resists Water; it can be helpful, and can overcome foes with patience if it has Blizzard and Slack Off, but there are probably better ways to handle this gym. Gyarados's Intimidate drops Zen Headbutt's power, and the only other attack you can use against it is the inaccurate Blizzard. Granted Slowbro will easily overcome the two Dragonair if it has Blizzard. Kingdra is a pretty bad matchup for Slowbro, since it has its powerful and reliable STAB Dragon Pulse, while Slowbro has to use the innaccurate/low PP Blizzard, which Kingdra is not weak to. Plus, it has Smoke Screen (against your Blizzard...), Sitrus Berry, and Clair will heal it. Slowbro's pretty much overwhelmed by Kingdra.
    Note: If you are using Slowking, it will be more useful in this gym because of its great Special Bulk-- however, it still faces the problem of having no way to deal real damage to Kingdra.
    Will-- Mirror Match up? Not really. Slowbro has a huge advantage here, especially if it knows Shadow Ball. Even without Shadow Ball though, Slowbro handles him well. Both Xatu will bite the dust against Blizzard (or even STAB Surf), while their "super effective" attacks don't do nearly enough damage to Slowbro. Jynx can sleep you, but it can't really do anything to you, so eventually you'll wake up and Fire Blast/Surf it. Exeggcutor is in the same situation, able to sleep with Hypnosis but not do much else, while Blizzard/Fire Blast destroy it. Without Shadow Ball, you have no real way of getting around his Slowbro, but just leave that to something else.
    Koga-- If you have Fire Blast and Zen Head Butt, you're golden here, but you can get around not having one or the other. All the Bugs can be destroyed by Fire Blast (everything but Muk/Crobat), but you could always just Surf them to death too. All the Poison types (everything but Forretress) is vaporized by Zen Head Butt, but Surf can handle Crobat well enough too. Taking down Muk with Surf can be annoying though.
    Bruno-- Bruno is literally helpless in front of Slowbro and its STAB Surf. Zen Head Butt just adds insult to injury if you have it (protip: Don't Zen Head Butt Hitmontop-- it has Counter...)
    Karen-- Ughhh... the one E-4 member that stomps Slowbro flat. I mean, Slowbro can kind of be useful since it can survive Houndoom/Murkrow's hits and use Surf/Blizzard; but between being annoyed to death by Umbreon, Vileplume's Petal Dance, Gengar's Destiny Bond, and Murkrow/Doom's Dark attacks, you really shouldn't bother with Slowbro here.
    Lance--Gyarados's intimidate can be annoying, but it literally can do nothing to hurt slowbro. My recommendation would be to start with your own Gyarados, then switch to Slowbro to take Gyarados down with full power Zen Head Butts. The first Dragonite has Thunder, so be careful of it, but nothing else on the team can overcome Slowbro, and it destroys all of them with super effective Blizzard (Dragonites) / Surf (Aerodactyle/Charizard).
    Additional Comments: If you couldn't tell, Slowbro has pretty bad 4 slot symdrom (in-game, wow!). Surf, Zen Head Butt, Blizzard, Fire Blast, Slack Off and Shadow Ball are all useful attacks, and have their good matchups in the E4. I'd personally recommend Surf / Blizzard / Zen Head Butt / Slack Off. Fire Blast is useful against forretress (who's killed by Surf), Jynx (who you can still hit with Surf) and Exeggcutor (who kinda sucks-- beat it with something else). Shadow Ball is only really needed for the enemy Slowbro.
  17. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    "Chuck-- You have an absolute advantage against Poliwrath, Infernape, and everything else in this gym. There is literally nothing any of the trainers here can do to pierce your slimy armor. You will also very likely be at a higher level than the Gym leader's Pokemon."

    Minor note, he has Primeape not Infernape.
  18. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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  19. JSND

    JSND

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    If he uses Infernape it would be rather fun lol

    Just asking, what is the replacement of the Ele Punch TM Shop in HGSS?
  20. Chou Toshio

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    Blizzard / Fire Blast / Thunder get sold in the shop instead.
  21. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I think there's another reason why Slowbro shouldn't be in Top Tier besides having to go back to catch it - contained in its name (and it's not 'bro').

    Exeggutor isn't very threatening to Slowbro I feel (no grass-type STAB), though if you have something faster then that's a better way of avoiding seeing Hypnosis connect. I'd be kinda scared to switch into Forretress because of Explosion though.
  22. Chou Toshio

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    ^ You wouldn't switch into Forretress... You'd already have let Slowbro munch through Ariados and Venomoth. But yeah... Slowbro kinda needs Fire Blast to ensure he doesn't have an encounter with BOOM; but that's just 1 of forry's 4 moves.
  23. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

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    Personally, I would give Slowbro and Slowking the same entry. They're fundamentally the same, just with swapped defences and a lack of Slack Off, which as you've mentioned isn't that important.
  24. Chou Toshio

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    Well, it is a combined review because I did talk about Slowking-- I mentioned practically everything that you would need to know about it that's different from Slowbro. The big one is the 5 levels Wild Slowbro has on Wild Slowpoke. Slowbro basically overshadows Slowking just because of that-- plus, its greater physical bulk makes it much more useful against Lance. I did mention Slowking is a bit more useful against Claire, but then still doesn't have a way to consistently beat Kingdra. Honestly Slowbro should be emphasized in the review because it's just better.
  25. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I think L39 Nasty Plot is a big advantage for Slowking as its lack of Psychic for the E4 makes it advantageous to just set up and hit things with neutral Surfs/whatever. Much better than Slack Off for which you can compensate with Lemonades and whatnot. Nasty Plot is also not entirely impossible to be learnt on time for Clair.

    I'd say that Slowking > Slowbro if one can afford to trade-evolve and Slowbro > Slowking otherwise (obviously). Physical bulk is nice for taking Hyper Beams, but Bruno can't hurt Slowking much either, and the special bulk is useful for facing the dragon-type specialists you meet. The 5 extra levels Slowbro gets aren't a huge advantage, as it will still go last in battle and both should OHKO most generic enemies with Surf (both meaning both instantly evolved Slowking and Slowbro from the wild).

    I personally wouldn't ignore Slowpoke's possible early contributions in gyms 2-4 either. You're not taking Scyther's U-Turns definitely, but Slowpoke is one Pokemon who doesn't mind watching Kakuna/Metapod use Harden due to its special movepool - L11 Water Gun, L15 Confusion. Yawn can be used to help with Miltank, and it can use Confusion freely in Morty's gym on anything that's not Gengar - why would you be afraid of Lick anyway?

    Finally, a physical Slowbro deserves a mention. You get Curse at the start, and Zen Headbutt is your physical alternative to Confusion (tbh I'd keep Confusion on special Slowbro/king anyway). Avalanche has 120 BP when taking a hit, and Slowdude will most certainly be taking those every turn. Curse up and Avalanche all of Clair's/Lance's Pokemon. You could keep Surf since Waterfall isn't a choice (and it doesn't require setup). Earthquake is there and helps with, like, Houndoom, but mostly redundant with Zen Headbutt covering poison-types better.

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