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HeartGold and SoulSilver ingame tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Diana, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 10, 2008
    Whoa, didn't realize discussion had picked up so much while I was gone, sorry about that.

    A Pokemon being dropped midgame would definitely have an effect on its ranking, but something used as a "crutch" could be still considered for the lower-mid tiers.

    Gyarados is just fantastic, no question about that. I really do like Lapras, but Gyarados is just better. Lapras still feels like a high-tier Pokemon though, despite being not as good as Gyarados it's a very solid Pokemon.

    Is the consensus here to stick Rattata with Sentret in Mid? I'm okay with that, though I like Rattata slightly better.

    I did a mono-water run a long time ago when it comes to Water-types but I don't remember anything about that other than Lanturn is actually pretty solid, somewhere in that mid-high line sounds good. Water/Electric is just such an awesome typing and it can level against swimmers on Route 40/41 so I'd lean high.

    I do remember a much more recent run, which was mono-Grass (I know, painful, right?), so I might pitch in for these, though not doing the full write-ups yet as I have to go pretty soon.

    Hoppip: Bottom. Can't hit anything, even if it has a fun support movepool. At one point this thing, as a Skiploom, beat Morty's Gengar with Flash/Leech Seed/Stun Spore but that took hilarious luck and it sucked literally everywhere else. It was fun though.

    Bellsprout: Mid. Actually not that bad, though it's sad that Growth doesn't help out with Vine Whip in Gen 4. Still quite the decent Grass-type, especially later on when it gets Sludge Bomb. Before that it's still very usable, though it goes through the typical lulls of being a Grass-type.

    Exeggcute: Mid. I wish it wasn't stuck with Confusion for so long but it was actually quite usable, which surprised me. One of those Pokemon that can actually scare Whitney a bit, actually, since it basically lives to Reflect and spread status early. It's really on the lower end of Mid but I'm leaning this way since that extra Psychic-type gives it some Team Rocket utility.

    Paras: Bottom. Could be talked into Low as well, it's a borderline case. Slow as molasses with a ton of resistances, to be sure, and has trouble hitting well early, but as time goes on you get moves such as Dig and Giga Drain which give it something to do, so it's not totally useless, just mostly. Spore is sweet but with base 30 Speed you can't exactly safely do it to much.
  2. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Orange Islands

    Dec 26, 2008
    I've been using Raticate (Bred with Flame Wheel) and it still really isn't that strong. It has an awesome moveset, but jeez it dies to everything if it doesn't kill it first... Hyper Fang + Bite (Crunch) and Flame Wheel hits pretty much the whole game pretty well. I'm running it on a "Challenge Team" of sorts with some other general low ranking crap (Electrode Arbok etc) and it's probably the second best on my team atm.

    I would def agree that it feels easier/better to use than Furret did. I used a Furret in BW and it was surprisingly solid, so I take back my previous statements on it!
  3. neilymon


    Feb 12, 2013
    essentially copying over my entry from the GSC thread:
    Totodile - Top Tier
    Availability: Starter
    Stats: Above Average
    Typing: Water (not amazing but not bad either)
    Movepool: Above Average
    Major Battles: Rage is surprisingly effective against the early gyms, although you'll struggle with Scyther's U-Turn, Miltank's Stomp, and your rival's Razor Leaf. After that, TMs (Headbutt, Earthquake, Rock Slide), HMs/tutors (Surf->Waterfall, Ice Punch) and learned moves (Ice Fang, Bite->Crunch) make it an incredibly versatile Pokemon. Totodile can win the game singlehandedly; just bring along some HM slaves.
  4. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

    May 31, 2011
    Besides the wrong generation's picture, I completely agree. Totodile seems to have the perfect coverage. I want to mention one thing, though - fast special Electric types, such as Jolteon, Raichu, and Electrode. Electrode especially are abundant. Remember to be wary of these Pokémon, because while Earthquake is a great move for dealing with them, often they can outspeed and hit on your weak Special Defense.

    Also, the Rival's Chikorita line doesn't deserve a mention. That thing is pitiful because the AI can't SubSeed.
  5. TM13IceBeam


    Oct 22, 2010
    I think the only battle where you need to watch out for Bayleef is the Azalea battle where barring overgrinding, Croconaw doesn't have Ice Fang to deal with it. Bite shits all over Gastly though and Zubat is a joke. Scyther and Miltank are all strong foes that not everyone can deal with, and Croconaw just happens to be one of them: it shouldn't be penalised for it (it's like say Misty's Starmie in RBY). Scratch/Rage can be upgraded into Headbutt in the forest, which you can later swap for Slash/Return. Having natural Water/Ice coverage is stupidly good especially when it essentially means you cheese over the final boss (or at least, the first final boss).
  6. neilymon


    Feb 12, 2013
    Copied this over from the GSC thread: What's the best STAB Pokemon for each type? 2 rules: 1) It should have a decent STAB move early and a strong STAB move late 2) No starters

    Psychic: Abra (Confusion -> Psybeam -> Psychic)
    Ground: Geodude (Magnitude -> Earthquake)
    Flying: Scyther (Wing Attack / TM Aerial Ace)
    Bug: Scyther (TM U-Turn -> X-Scissor / Tutor Bug Bite)
    Fighting: Heracross (Brick Break -> Close Combat)
    Fire: Magmar (Ember -> Fire Punch -> Flamethrower -> TM Overheat)
    Normal: Tauros (Horn Attack -> Take Down -> TM Return)
    Ice: Lapras (Ice Shard -> Ice Beam)
    Electric: Mareep (ThunderShock -> Discharge -> Thunder)
    Ghost: Gastly (Lick -> Shadow Ball)
    Poison: Grimer (Sludge -> Sludge Bomb -> TM Poison Jab)
    Rock: Geodude (Rock Throw -> Stone Edge)
    Dragon: Dratini (TM Dragon Pulse -> TM Dragon Claw -> Outrage)
    Steel: Steelix? (TM Iron Tail)
    Water: Vaporeon? (Water Gun -> HM Surf +/- Hydro Pump)
    Grass: Bellsprout? (Vine Whip -> Razor Leaf -> Leaf Storm)
    Dark: Umbreon? (Pursuit -> Faint Attack -> Tutor Sucker Punch)

    Again, Ho-Oh's Brave Bird and Sacred Fire are the best moves of their type, but they come so late in the game. Water could be pretty much anyone, I went with the highest SpA.

    I'm unsure about a lot of these, especially the last four. Any suggestions?
  7. Lucchini


    May 6, 2011
    Megahorn is definitely the best bug-type move. Heracross learns it kinda late, but not significantly later than, say, Stone Edge on Geodude.

    Tauros isn't really the hardest normal-type hitter because Granbull and Ursaring exist. He's better than at least Granbull, though.

    For the best water-type, I'd argue it's Gyarados with Waterfall, and the specially oriented poison types make better use of Sludge Bomb than Grimer.

    Safari Zone exists, so Murkrow > Umbreon.

    And I'd stay away from inaccurate moves with low PP (or just really inaccurate like Stone Edge and Iron Tail) entirely.
  8. Wishy


    May 18, 2006
    Murkrow/Honchkrow is the best choice for in-game Dark type. Useable (in Honchkrow's case [125/105], really good) attacking stats & nice speed (Unfortunately, Honchkrow is a whole 20 points lower than Murkrow [71 vs 91]! not sure what GF were thinking), and are available before the E4 (sorry Houndour/Houndoom :<). I love Umbreon, but it's no good in game. Not offensive at all, and there really is no point in going totally defensive in-game. I used one in Platinum

    Murkrow/Honchkrow also naturally learn 'the best' Dark type attacks (Faint Attack, Sucker Punch, Night Slash, Dark Pulse) but you probably wont get Dark Pulse (level 55) until Kanto unless you use the TM.

    Maybe I'll do a quick write-up about Murkrow/Honchkrow later...
  9. neilymon


    Feb 12, 2013
    Oh, Megahorn is definitely the best Bug move, it just sucks that Heracross doesn't get any Bug moves until Lv55. Compare that to Scyther, who gets U-Turn immediately. Basically, Heracross functions as a STAB Fighting-type until Lv55, after which he has the best STAB Bug and Fighting moves.

    Teddiursa comes ridiculously late in the game, certainly too late to be useful. But you're right, Snubbull's STAB Return is better than Tauros's (ugh, but he's so much worse overall).

    Hmm, I hadn't considered Waterfall with its lower BP, but on Red Gyarados it's certainly the pick over Vaporeon. And going by SpA, Gastly ends up being the best STAB Poison-type even though he doesn't naturally learn any. I have no idea why I was fixated on the crappy pure Poison-types.

    Another obvious one, as Wishy also pointed out. Murkrow (Pursuit -> Faint Attack -> TM Dark Pulse) is definitely way better.

    Ugh, the next best Rock move is Rock Slide with 25 less BP and only 10% higher Accuracy. I guess the higher PP is more valuable in-game, though. As for Iron Tail, I guess the next best idea is Scizor (Bullet Punch -> Metal Claw -> Iron Head). Although if you don't have access to trades, you're stuck with Magnemite (Magnet Bomb -> TM Flash Cannon). Mediocre, unless you get it from the Pokewalker...

    EDIT: I just remembered Technician Scyther gets a Wing Attack of 90 BP, which makes it arguably better than Fly (as strong as Dodrio and only weaker than something bizarre like Flying Dragonite).
  10. TheGreatSplurge


    Dec 30, 2015
    Having just finished a run to the E4 I'd like to make a case for Geodude as I don't see him on the tierring, (I could be blind.)

    It is an easy early pickup in the Dark Cave, It requires some grinding to be of use against Falkner however post Falkner it can One man army the next two gyms with ease. With access to rock throw and magnitude relatively early on it gets a decent boost to its utility. It loses it use through till Pryce where it can be of some use before holding a decent roll as a sponge in the E4 to heal other mons as well as being able to contribute well against Koga and Karen. Evolution wise graveler comes just at the point when Geodude loses its utility however if you are able to trade Golem with its decent defense stat does well against most physically attacking matchups. it's final gimmick is using Golem as a suicide lead in Explosion to put significant damage onto more powerful pokemon which can come in handy if you are underlevelled.

    Just thought this should be noted :)
    Silver_Lucario42 likes this.
  11. Random Passerby

    Random Passerby
    is a Community Contributor

    Apr 21, 2014
    Pretty sure you can catch it earlier at Route 46
  12. TheGreatSplurge


    Dec 30, 2015
    True, tbh HGSS needs a bit of a refresh

    Very true, hadn't noticed that, I was more talking out of my own experience but catching on route 46 would help the issue of grinding for Falkner which would make it even better, only consideration is having to level up two mons right from the outset, which can be time consuming.
  13. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 10, 2008
    Hi. I had a friend tell me someone bumped this. I haven't been active on this site for two years, sadly. There is a HGSS in-game tier thread here but it's been a while since then as well.

    If there's serious interest in updating here I'll keep an eye on the thread and try to update soon. If someone else wants an HGSS thread like this feel free to ask the mods to run one though. I certainly don't mind someone taking it over since I've ignored this for so long.
  14. WreckDra

    WreckDra The Piano Has Been Drinking,
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 4, 2012
    My all-time favorite game in the main series so far, so I guess I will give this a go.
    Name: Onix (Trade + Foreign Metal Coat) - Low Tier
    Union cave is accessed early (right before Bugsy), but is a pain to find and requires Trade + foreign Metal Coat. This is the biggest reason why it is Low Tier.
    Stats: As Onix, it has the defense and typing to sit on any of the early game Normal, Flying, and Bug-types but has Attack problems if its STABs aren't super effective. Steelix is better than Onix in every way and even patches up the Attack problem with some sacrificed Speed.
    Typing: As Onix, Rock STAB is very useful up Union Cave up until Goldenrod, and still somewhat useful after. Steelix's typing is amazing for far longer due to what certain Gyms, Elite Four members, and most of Team Rocket use. Steel STAB sucks, however.
    Movepool: All Onix needs is Rock STAB to be useful early. Steelix wants the Dig TM from National Park badly and can make use of Rock Tomb and Slam for awhile until you want to give it Strength and HMs like Strength. It gets Ice Fang from the Blackthorn Move Tutor which is handy for the Elite Four and Lance. Its level up movepool being bad makes it rather easy to pin Strength and Rock Smash on it and Dig being an infinite Escape Rope as well as decent Ground STAB make it rather handy.
    Major Battles: Onix invalidates Bugsy and is the best potion tank ever vs Whitney even though it has trouble KOing Miltank through Milk Drink (Miltank locking into Rollout helps with this though). Keep it away from Morty as his focus on Curse residual, Trapping, and sleep makes Onix's, and Steelix's, value drop through the floor. Steelix has no use vs Chuck either, but it can solo Jasmine, hold its own versus Pryce, and even sit in on and damage Clair's Gyarados for awhile... especially if you teach it Thunder Fang from the move tutor beforehand. Both Onix and Steelix can sit on Silver's bat and Magneton/Magnemite once it ditches Sonic Boom. It can also sit on Cyndiquil as Onix if you chose Chikorita. The biggest help Steelix brings is that it completely invalidates most of Team Rocket, including Petrel, and is very useful against Archer and Ariana. Steelix has its uses versus Will, but doesn't like facing Slowbro and the sleep moves that some of the Pokemon use. Invalidating Koga is Steelix's biggest strength against the Elite Four although Magneton/Zone does this better. Keeping it away from Karen and Bruno is best although it can sit in on Murkrow and Onix. If you gave it Ice Fang in Blackthorn City, Steelix will have massive amounts of value against Lance when facing his two level 49 Dragonite and Aerodactyl. If it kept a Rock move, it can even face tank / KO Charizard. It can also KO the level 50 Dragonite although it will likely be hurting afterwards because of Fire Blast.

    Misc stuff: The biggest strength Steelix has in this game is how disgustingly well it pairs with Gyarados and Feraligatr (two of the very best Pokemon in the initial ingame). It KOes just about everything these two don't like with the exception of the Sleep Powder wielding Grass Pokemon. Having another option for Strength outside of your Gyarados is a very good thing I have found and it has the moveslots to run two HMs if needed. All of this is still rather mediocre considering you have to find a 5% Onix and trade it with a foreign Metal Coat as you don't get one before the National Dex. Onix is miles worse Geodude without the trade.

    I can go into the Kanto Gyms / E4 Rematch too, but that's going to take awhile. This thing could be bottom tier too I suppose, but I would hate to see it on the same tier as its awful pre-evo assuming Onix has no way to evolve.

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