1. Welcome to the Orange Islands! Please remember to read the rules. Come chat with us on Discord and enjoy your stay!
  2. The moderators of this forum are DHR-107, Codraroll, and NoCheese.
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  4. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

HeartGold and SoulSilver ingame tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Diana, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,406
    Whoa, didn't realize discussion had picked up so much while I was gone, sorry about that.

    A Pokemon being dropped midgame would definitely have an effect on its ranking, but something used as a "crutch" could be still considered for the lower-mid tiers.

    Gyarados is just fantastic, no question about that. I really do like Lapras, but Gyarados is just better. Lapras still feels like a high-tier Pokemon though, despite being not as good as Gyarados it's a very solid Pokemon.

    Is the consensus here to stick Rattata with Sentret in Mid? I'm okay with that, though I like Rattata slightly better.

    I did a mono-water run a long time ago when it comes to Water-types but I don't remember anything about that other than Lanturn is actually pretty solid, somewhere in that mid-high line sounds good. Water/Electric is just such an awesome typing and it can level against swimmers on Route 40/41 so I'd lean high.

    I do remember a much more recent run, which was mono-Grass (I know, painful, right?), so I might pitch in for these, though not doing the full write-ups yet as I have to go pretty soon.

    Hoppip: Bottom. Can't hit anything, even if it has a fun support movepool. At one point this thing, as a Skiploom, beat Morty's Gengar with Flash/Leech Seed/Stun Spore but that took hilarious luck and it sucked literally everywhere else. It was fun though.

    Bellsprout: Mid. Actually not that bad, though it's sad that Growth doesn't help out with Vine Whip in Gen 4. Still quite the decent Grass-type, especially later on when it gets Sludge Bomb. Before that it's still very usable, though it goes through the typical lulls of being a Grass-type.

    Exeggcute: Mid. I wish it wasn't stuck with Confusion for so long but it was actually quite usable, which surprised me. One of those Pokemon that can actually scare Whitney a bit, actually, since it basically lives to Reflect and spread status early. It's really on the lower end of Mid but I'm leaning this way since that extra Psychic-type gives it some Team Rocket utility.

    Paras: Bottom. Could be talked into Low as well, it's a borderline case. Slow as molasses with a ton of resistances, to be sure, and has trouble hitting well early, but as time goes on you get moves such as Dig and Giga Drain which give it something to do, so it's not totally useless, just mostly. Spore is sweet but with base 30 Speed you can't exactly safely do it to much.
  2. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Orange Islands

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,838
    I've been using Raticate (Bred with Flame Wheel) and it still really isn't that strong. It has an awesome moveset, but jeez it dies to everything if it doesn't kill it first... Hyper Fang + Bite (Crunch) and Flame Wheel hits pretty much the whole game pretty well. I'm running it on a "Challenge Team" of sorts with some other general low ranking crap (Electrode Arbok etc) and it's probably the second best on my team atm.

    I would def agree that it feels easier/better to use than Furret did. I used a Furret in BW and it was surprisingly solid, so I take back my previous statements on it!
  3. neilymon

    neilymon

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    29
    essentially copying over my entry from the GSC thread:
    [​IMG]
    Totodile - Top Tier
    Availability: Starter
    Stats: Above Average
    Typing: Water (not amazing but not bad either)
    Movepool: Above Average
    Major Battles: Rage is surprisingly effective against the early gyms, although you'll struggle with Scyther's U-Turn, Miltank's Stomp, and your rival's Razor Leaf. After that, TMs (Headbutt, Earthquake, Rock Slide), HMs/tutors (Surf->Waterfall, Ice Punch) and learned moves (Ice Fang, Bite->Crunch) make it an incredibly versatile Pokemon. Totodile can win the game singlehandedly; just bring along some HM slaves.
  4. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,447
    Besides the wrong generation's picture, I completely agree. Totodile seems to have the perfect coverage. I want to mention one thing, though - fast special Electric types, such as Jolteon, Raichu, and Electrode. Electrode especially are abundant. Remember to be wary of these Pokémon, because while Earthquake is a great move for dealing with them, often they can outspeed and hit on your weak Special Defense.

    Also, the Rival's Chikorita line doesn't deserve a mention. That thing is pitiful because the AI can't SubSeed.
  5. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,681
    I think the only battle where you need to watch out for Bayleef is the Azalea battle where barring overgrinding, Croconaw doesn't have Ice Fang to deal with it. Bite shits all over Gastly though and Zubat is a joke. Scyther and Miltank are all strong foes that not everyone can deal with, and Croconaw just happens to be one of them: it shouldn't be penalised for it (it's like say Misty's Starmie in RBY). Scratch/Rage can be upgraded into Headbutt in the forest, which you can later swap for Slash/Return. Having natural Water/Ice coverage is stupidly good especially when it essentially means you cheese over the final boss (or at least, the first final boss).
  6. neilymon

    neilymon

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    29
    Copied this over from the GSC thread: What's the best STAB Pokemon for each type? 2 rules: 1) It should have a decent STAB move early and a strong STAB move late 2) No starters

    Psychic: Abra (Confusion -> Psybeam -> Psychic)
    Ground: Geodude (Magnitude -> Earthquake)
    Flying: Scyther (Wing Attack / TM Aerial Ace)
    Bug: Scyther (TM U-Turn -> X-Scissor / Tutor Bug Bite)
    Fighting: Heracross (Brick Break -> Close Combat)
    Fire: Magmar (Ember -> Fire Punch -> Flamethrower -> TM Overheat)
    Normal: Tauros (Horn Attack -> Take Down -> TM Return)
    Ice: Lapras (Ice Shard -> Ice Beam)
    Electric: Mareep (ThunderShock -> Discharge -> Thunder)
    Ghost: Gastly (Lick -> Shadow Ball)
    Poison: Grimer (Sludge -> Sludge Bomb -> TM Poison Jab)
    Rock: Geodude (Rock Throw -> Stone Edge)
    Dragon: Dratini (TM Dragon Pulse -> TM Dragon Claw -> Outrage)
    Steel: Steelix? (TM Iron Tail)
    Water: Vaporeon? (Water Gun -> HM Surf +/- Hydro Pump)
    Grass: Bellsprout? (Vine Whip -> Razor Leaf -> Leaf Storm)
    Dark: Umbreon? (Pursuit -> Faint Attack -> Tutor Sucker Punch)

    Again, Ho-Oh's Brave Bird and Sacred Fire are the best moves of their type, but they come so late in the game. Water could be pretty much anyone, I went with the highest SpA.

    I'm unsure about a lot of these, especially the last four. Any suggestions?
  7. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    571
    Megahorn is definitely the best bug-type move. Heracross learns it kinda late, but not significantly later than, say, Stone Edge on Geodude.

    Tauros isn't really the hardest normal-type hitter because Granbull and Ursaring exist. He's better than at least Granbull, though.

    For the best water-type, I'd argue it's Gyarados with Waterfall, and the specially oriented poison types make better use of Sludge Bomb than Grimer.

    Safari Zone exists, so Murkrow > Umbreon.

    And I'd stay away from inaccurate moves with low PP (or just really inaccurate like Stone Edge and Iron Tail) entirely.
  8. Wishy

    Wishy

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,534
    Murkrow/Honchkrow is the best choice for in-game Dark type. Useable (in Honchkrow's case [125/105], really good) attacking stats & nice speed (Unfortunately, Honchkrow is a whole 20 points lower than Murkrow [71 vs 91]! not sure what GF were thinking), and are available before the E4 (sorry Houndour/Houndoom :<). I love Umbreon, but it's no good in game. Not offensive at all, and there really is no point in going totally defensive in-game. I used one in Platinum

    Murkrow/Honchkrow also naturally learn 'the best' Dark type attacks (Faint Attack, Sucker Punch, Night Slash, Dark Pulse) but you probably wont get Dark Pulse (level 55) until Kanto unless you use the TM.

    Maybe I'll do a quick write-up about Murkrow/Honchkrow later...
  9. neilymon

    neilymon

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    29
    Oh, Megahorn is definitely the best Bug move, it just sucks that Heracross doesn't get any Bug moves until Lv55. Compare that to Scyther, who gets U-Turn immediately. Basically, Heracross functions as a STAB Fighting-type until Lv55, after which he has the best STAB Bug and Fighting moves.

    Teddiursa comes ridiculously late in the game, certainly too late to be useful. But you're right, Snubbull's STAB Return is better than Tauros's (ugh, but he's so much worse overall).

    Hmm, I hadn't considered Waterfall with its lower BP, but on Red Gyarados it's certainly the pick over Vaporeon. And going by SpA, Gastly ends up being the best STAB Poison-type even though he doesn't naturally learn any. I have no idea why I was fixated on the crappy pure Poison-types.

    Another obvious one, as Wishy also pointed out. Murkrow (Pursuit -> Faint Attack -> TM Dark Pulse) is definitely way better.

    Ugh, the next best Rock move is Rock Slide with 25 less BP and only 10% higher Accuracy. I guess the higher PP is more valuable in-game, though. As for Iron Tail, I guess the next best idea is Scizor (Bullet Punch -> Metal Claw -> Iron Head). Although if you don't have access to trades, you're stuck with Magnemite (Magnet Bomb -> TM Flash Cannon). Mediocre, unless you get it from the Pokewalker...

    EDIT: I just remembered Technician Scyther gets a Wing Attack of 90 BP, which makes it arguably better than Fly (as strong as Dodrio and only weaker than something bizarre like Flying Dragonite).
  10. TheGreatSplurge

    TheGreatSplurge

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2015
    Messages:
    77
    Having just finished a run to the E4 I'd like to make a case for Geodude as I don't see him on the tierring, (I could be blind.)

    It is an easy early pickup in the Dark Cave, It requires some grinding to be of use against Falkner however post Falkner it can One man army the next two gyms with ease. With access to rock throw and magnitude relatively early on it gets a decent boost to its utility. It loses it use through till Pryce where it can be of some use before holding a decent roll as a sponge in the E4 to heal other mons as well as being able to contribute well against Koga and Karen. Evolution wise graveler comes just at the point when Geodude loses its utility however if you are able to trade Golem with its decent defense stat does well against most physically attacking matchups. it's final gimmick is using Golem as a suicide lead in Explosion to put significant damage onto more powerful pokemon which can come in handy if you are underlevelled.

    Just thought this should be noted :)
    Silver_Lucario42 likes this.
  11. Random Passerby

    Random Passerby
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,692
    Pretty sure you can catch it earlier at Route 46
  12. TheGreatSplurge

    TheGreatSplurge

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2015
    Messages:
    77
    True, tbh HGSS needs a bit of a refresh

    Very true, hadn't noticed that, I was more talking out of my own experience but catching on route 46 would help the issue of grinding for Falkner which would make it even better, only consideration is having to level up two mons right from the outset, which can be time consuming.
  13. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,406
    Hi. I had a friend tell me someone bumped this. I haven't been active on this site for two years, sadly. There is a HGSS in-game tier thread here but it's been a while since then as well.

    If there's serious interest in updating here I'll keep an eye on the thread and try to update soon. If someone else wants an HGSS thread like this feel free to ask the mods to run one though. I certainly don't mind someone taking it over since I've ignored this for so long.
  14. WreckDra

    WreckDra He came home from the war with a party in his head...
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2012
    Messages:
    1,343
    My all-time favorite game in the main series so far, so I guess I will give this a go.
    Name: Onix (Trade + Foreign Metal Coat) - Low Tier
    Availability:
    Union cave is accessed early (right before Bugsy), but is a pain to find and requires Trade + foreign Metal Coat. This is the biggest reason why it is Low Tier.
    Stats: As Onix, it has the defense and typing to sit on any of the early game Normal, Flying, and Bug-types but has Attack problems if its STABs aren't super effective. Steelix is better than Onix in every way and even patches up the Attack problem with some sacrificed Speed.
    Typing: As Onix, Rock STAB is very useful up Union Cave up until Goldenrod, and still somewhat useful after. Steelix's typing is amazing for far longer due to what certain Gyms, Elite Four members, and most of Team Rocket use. Steel STAB sucks, however.
    Movepool: All Onix needs is Rock STAB to be useful early. Steelix wants the Dig TM from National Park badly and can make use of Rock Tomb and Slam for awhile until you want to give it Strength and HMs like Strength. It gets Ice Fang from the Blackthorn Move Tutor which is handy for the Elite Four and Lance. Its level up movepool being bad makes it rather easy to pin Strength and Rock Smash on it and Dig being an infinite Escape Rope as well as decent Ground STAB make it rather handy.
    Major Battles: Onix invalidates Bugsy and is the best potion tank ever vs Whitney even though it has trouble KOing Miltank through Milk Drink (Miltank locking into Rollout helps with this though). Keep it away from Morty as his focus on Curse residual, Trapping, and sleep makes Onix's, and Steelix's, value drop through the floor. Steelix has no use vs Chuck either, but it can solo Jasmine, hold its own versus Pryce, and even sit in on and damage Clair's Gyarados for awhile... especially if you teach it Thunder Fang from the move tutor beforehand. Both Onix and Steelix can sit on Silver's bat and Magneton/Magnemite once it ditches Sonic Boom. It can also sit on Cyndiquil as Onix if you chose Chikorita. The biggest help Steelix brings is that it completely invalidates most of Team Rocket, including Petrel, and is very useful against Archer and Ariana. Steelix has its uses versus Will, but doesn't like facing Slowbro and the sleep moves that some of the Pokemon use. Invalidating Koga is Steelix's biggest strength against the Elite Four although Magneton/Zone does this better. Keeping it away from Karen and Bruno is best although it can sit in on Murkrow and Onix. If you gave it Ice Fang in Blackthorn City, Steelix will have massive amounts of value against Lance when facing his two level 49 Dragonite and Aerodactyl. If it kept a Rock move, it can even face tank / KO Charizard. It can also KO the level 50 Dragonite although it will likely be hurting afterwards because of Fire Blast.

    Misc stuff: The biggest strength Steelix has in this game is how disgustingly well it pairs with Gyarados and Feraligatr (two of the very best Pokemon in the initial ingame). It KOes just about everything these two don't like with the exception of the Sleep Powder wielding Grass Pokemon. Having another option for Strength outside of your Gyarados is a very good thing I have found and it has the moveslots to run two HMs if needed. All of this is still rather mediocre considering you have to find a 5% Onix and trade it with a foreign Metal Coat as you don't get one before the National Dex. Onix is miles worse Geodude without the trade.

    I can go into the Kanto Gyms / E4 Rematch too, but that's going to take awhile. This thing could be bottom tier too I suppose, but I would hate to see it on the same tier as its awful pre-evo assuming Onix has no way to evolve.
  15. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,406
    I updated the OP with a format that is more in line with the modern in-game tiering threads instead of the older ones. This also added two new tiers, though one of them, F rank, is more of a container tier that exists for Pokemon that literally can't do anything in the game. I tried to distribute the existing Pokemon we've tiered into ranks but those are not final in the slightest and much more testing should be done.

    Right now I'm going to hold off on write-ups. The ones that are already done are still in the thread and we can probably use most of them once we get to writing. I want to get every Pokemon a tier before we actually write these up, and there are a ton of Pokemon to test and discuss in this game. I've started a HeartGold run recently for this purpose, so a few more Pokemon should be added by me relatively soon. Feel free to suggest a tier for any Pokemon you've used so we can get this going again!
  16. pika pal

    pika pal
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,244
    Is there any relation to be made between the Pokewalker's unlock requirements and the "timing" in the game? In theory you could unlock all the Pre-National areas before even fighting Falkner, and while their levels aren't significantly ahead of the curve, it does give some notable Pokemon access. Some Pokemon that I could see being affected on timing by how we regard this are

    - Magnemite
    - Abra
    - Gastly
    - Doduo

    Magnemite and Doduo benefit from their presence for early Gyms, and I can say that Dodrio's speed with Fly + Return was enough to do decent work, not A-Rank but at least a high C or B Rank worthy. Magnemite's typing just makes it good for the first two Gyms, Team Rocket's abundance of Zubat, and the Rival if Cyndaquil was chosen. Soon after it gets the Thunder TM in Goldenrod City, giving it a high power STAB to keep it in the game until its admittedly late Evolution. That said, earlier access and the typing alone would do a lot of favors if obtained ASAP (relatively speaking).

    Gastly and Abra are more a matter simply skipping some of their more tedious earlier levels, with Town Outskirts Abra coming one level before evolution to Kadabra, and Alakazam in the Trade's case, meaning at minimum it's ready to blow past Morty and abuse a high statline for most of the game. Similar point to Gastly/Gengar, though he takes longer to hit evolution level out of the Pokewalker (10-15 vs 25) and needs to wait a bit for his STABs (Level 33/Morty for Shadow Ball and Route 43 for Sludge Bomb), but he can make use of Thunder and Focus Blast for some high power non-STAB options in the meantime.

    The other thing I guess is the Walker itself as a level up mechanism. It's a non-battle means to gain EXP that takes no in-game resources or time like the Daycare does (Money), and gives a way to level up trouble battlers like Magikarp, Abra, etc., and then have their evolution induced with the Rare Candy in the Ruins of Alph (accessible using Rock Smash).


    The last big factor I think to note is the Pokeathlon's earlier/more convenient access to some evolution stones. Of significant note on the current list would be the Nidoran lines and Staryu (from Pokewalker to precede Good Rod), since these lines can get to their final stages before fighting Whitney and Morty and immediately capitalize on things like the Goldenrod TMs and the Surf HM.
    Diana likes this.
  17. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,406
    All of the Pokewalker routes with Pokemon listed in the OP are available from the start. There's more available but you can't unlock them until you get on the S.S. Aqua after you beat the Elite Four.

    If any Pokemon have significant differences between if they're obtained from the Pokewalker or not, they definitely deserve separate tiers. I think I used Staryu from the Pokewalker once but it's been years since I did that so I couldn't put a certain rank on it at the moment. I do think we should take into account how long some of these Pokemon take to get in real time, though: That Abra from Town Outskirts seems nice but that's a minimum of 50,000 steps to unlock that area and Abra inside it. Should that be treated differently than a Kangaskhan that needs only 3,000 steps total to unlock?
  18. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2013
    Messages:
    5,119
    Ho-Oh (HG) should probably be A like Lugia (SS) is. While it functions differently due to different stats, typing, etc. (probably moreso than other paired title legends) it's ultimately comparable in performance.
    Diana likes this.
  19. Merritt

    Merritt
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,134
    Since it seems we're tiering up until Red, Squirtle, Bulbasaur, and Charmander all should end up in F rank. They come astoundingly underleveled for how little of the game is left and as such basically define inefficiency.
  20. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2013
    Messages:
    5,119
    The same could probably be said for Treecko, Mudkip, and Torchic.
  21. Aldertz

    Aldertz formerly BPGXMG

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    682
    They come after Red...
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
    Kurona likes this.
  22. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,406
    Very tiny update in that I put Ho-Oh (HG) in A, since that makes perfect sense to me. Also stuck Ditto, Unown, and Wobbuffet in F because those are all Pokemon that clearly fit the criteria. The other-gen starters are post-Red so they don't get tiered, as much as I'd love to have them available.

    I'm working on a run of this still, I'm through Jasmine, but I've been working on it rather slowly. I'll nominate several Pokemon myself once I'm done. Feel free to pitch in with whatever Pokemon you have experience with in the meantime!
    Merritt and Kurona like this.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)