Heavy Offense

[Stathakis]

He was using lead venomoth (he liked that it could beat jirachi more easily than roserade), Rain Dance bronzong, Sub + Charge Beam Rotom-W, MixDra (I think Waterfall, Dragon Pulse, Hydro Pump, + something that was not draco or outrage), Sub Petaya Empoleon, and DD Gyara. I think one of the problems is that the team in no way sets up empoleon. Nothing encourages stuff that empoleon resists. There isn't much on this team that I would bullet punch, for example.

yeah, I tried quite a bit of crazy shit to make that team work (the original had cursepert > zong but then pert was too easy to set up on and kingdra never made it rain on its own and i also wanted sr so i tried zong but meh. team venomoth was good in wc for like two battles and thats it. you should've seen the crazy shit i was trying in order to get it to work over the summer (rd ld cress and explosions and all sorts of gimmicks shit, it was crazy lol, but then I reached the "too gimmick" point and just kinda gave up).

Also, use sniper, not swift swim. Sniper isn't that aewsome of an ability, but when you get a crit, it will often kill something it wouldn't have otherwise. I have killed a heatran with outrage at +1 because I got a Sniper crit. I would rather have a chance of activating an ability every game rather than only against rain teams.

this is where I will disagree with you. sniper is that kind of ability that promotes dependence on luck, and while it is nice to have, I think that beating rain teams should enemy azelf win the speed tie in the beginning is much more beneficial than having a chance of something that I'm going to be winning without anyways. autowin vs. raindance teams pretty much just makes it worth it for me, that combined with the fact that I don't remember ever getting a crit with kingdra (sniper or not), but you may have better luck than me who knows!

anyways rey pretty much summed up anything I would say so read his post, I'm lazy

 

[The Plant]

For what its worth I'm like 44 on the leaderboard. I don't get why you guys think stall is so easy to beat. I think regular offense (lati/scizor/mence) is the easiest by far.

 

[Anachronism]

I figured that you weren't using that team anymore Stath.

Meh. Swift Swim vs Sniper could go either way really. I rarely run into RD teams anywhere above like 1400 points so SS is nearly useless. If I were just starting to ladder or testing on a new account or something I could see it being more useful. SS in no way gives you an auto-win against rain, though it does help. I can usually beat rain anyway so I don't really feel the need for it. Since I run into rain so infrequently, I find that an effect that is useful 6.25% of the time is way better than an effect that is useful 0% of the time (assuming I never run into RD).

I liken it to Leftovers vs. Shed Shell on Skarm/Forry. Do you want 6.25% every game or a slightly more guaranteed win on the off chance the opponent is playing magnezone (RD)? The difference is that people above 1400 CRE may actually use magnezone. The only person above 1400 CRE with rain dance I have seen is blue basket.

 

[Myzozoa]

Ive been thinking a little bit about water HO. It seems to me that the best way to do it would be to use a lot rain dance and swift swim, and then supplement it with physical stat boosters. I havea rough draft of this style that isnt amazing but is passable: azelf lead (what rain dance team doesnt use azelf), bronzong(the best rain supporter), SD Ludicolo ( i know you are probably laughing, but this is on of those gimmicky things that is so crazy it just might work), SD Kabutops (autowin vs crappy stall), DD Kingdra(this doesnt require rain which i would like to think means that i only need 2 rain supporters), dugtrio (kills up ttar and abomasnow). I think this team could be fairly explosive if it gets going, but the main problem is that it cant ever catch up if it gets behind (or if it never gets going).

On the subject of rain dance, isnt rain dance just another form of hyper offense in many ways? It uses sacrifice and set-up to get OHKO's similar to hyper offense.

 

[Sparko]

thanks for answering my questions guys, much appreciated :D just a few more and I'll be done :P

what nature should salamence run? and should I use dragon claw or outrage?
should mence run lum berry/yache berry or life orb?
should I run naive or jolly on mence? (if it has fire blast)
and should gyarados use a jolly or adamant nature?
what moveset should SD infernape run?

thanks!

 

[2old4thisshit]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/salamence

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gyarados

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/infernape

There you go.

 

[Sparko]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/salamence

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gyarados

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/infernape

There you go.

thanks but I know what the analyses say but I want more specific details like whether infernape should run mach punch or stone edge and if salamence should run outrage or dragon claw to avoid confusion :P

 

[The SPrinkLer]

what nature should salamence run? and should I use dragon claw or outrage? Naive, Outrage
should mence run lum berry/yache berry or life orb? Life Orb
should I run naive or jolly on mence? (if it has fire blast) see above
and should gyarados use a jolly or adamant nature? Jolly
what moveset should SD infernape run? Flare Blitz, Stone Edge, and Close Combat

 

[Little Green Yoda]

I gave the test team in the OP a test whirl on Shoddy and it's definitely fun to use. I'm guessing most if not all HO teams abuse dual screens? If so, how do they deal with Taunt Aero leads and Trick Scarf leads? I've also found Body Slam Jirachi to be a royal pain in the ass.

 

[Kai-Miz]

what nature should salamence run? and should I use dragon claw or outrage? Naive, Outrage
Depends on the set as well. Jolly works for purely physical sets (in case you decide to run stone edge instead of fire blast to defeat Gyarados). Dragon Claw makes a good choice if you feel like you can get more than one DD up, it could potentially give you a better chance to sweep without getting revenge killed by a steel type.

should mence run lum berry/yache berry or life orb? Life Orb
Yache seems rather pointless on Salamence. I'd prefer to run it on Dragonite for his bulkier stats. Lum is a decent option, but I prefer leftovers and life orb.

should I run naive or jolly on mence? (if it has fire blast) see above
Definitely Naive.

and should gyarados use a jolly or adamant nature? Jolly
I actually disagree with this. Jolly is mainly used to outrun Jolteon and +speed nature scarftran but you lose so much power on other things. For a purely offensive set, Jolly is probably the best choice, but Adamant can work wonderfully if you have no issues with Jolteon or Heatran, and is probably your best choice for a more bulkier set.

what moveset should SD infernape run? Flare Blitz, Stone Edge, and Close Combat
U-turn and mach punch are both great choices as well. U-turn might be situational, but it certainly can come in handy, considering Latias is most often the best counter to Infernape. U-turn will certainly leave a heavy dent in it, leaving you free to go to a counter.

Just wanted to add to this!

 

[Game Freak201]

I gave the test team in the OP a test whirl on Shoddy and it's definitely fun to use. I'm guessing most if not all HO teams abuse dual screens? If so, how do they deal with Taunt Aero leads and Trick Scarf leads? I've also found Body Slam Jirachi to be a royal pain in the ass.

Besides the fact that Aero leads are uncommon to begin with, you should just straight up attack if you could do so with your lead. But if the lead your using is something like the Azelf in the OP, you would need to switch into one of your attackers since the Aero is probably going to Taunt first anyway. As for the Trick Scarfers, they can only Trick the Scarf once. In addition, they only hinder your leadZelf(although a Scarf Explosion does have its uses). As for Body Slam Jirachi, just do your best to kill it off before it cripples more of your pokemon.

 

[The Plant]

I think some of you guys are being too draconian about the team. I think np ape is better then sd ape on this team. Though i don't recomend ape at alll because nobody can switch into latias.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

Besides the fact that Aero leads are uncommon to begin with, you should just straight up attack if you could do so with your lead. But if the lead your using is something like the Azelf in the OP, you would need to switch into one of your attackers since the Aero is probably going to Taunt first anyway. As for the Trick Scarfers, they can only Trick the Scarf once. In addition, they only hinder your leadZelf(although a Scarf Explosion does have its uses). As for Body Slam Jirachi, just do your best to kill it off before it cripples more of your pokemon.

Aero leads were #4 in August, not exactly uncommon. The issue I have is that whatever you switch in can't setup (due to Taunt) and w/o screen support your Pokemon can't get that extra turn of setup to ravage an opponent's team. You could sac something to get Azelf (or whatever you're DSing with) in but then it's an uphill battle.

I guess my question is: can an HO team succeed if it's forced to switch out on turn 1 instead of setting up screens? I'm guessing it's possible but only with really smart switching.

 

[Stathakis]

I guess my question is: can an HO team succeed if it's forced to switch out on turn 1 instead of setting up screens? I'm guessing it's possible but only with really smart switching.

it can, and it has been done time and time again. when fighting aerodactyl leads with no attack azelf, generally what I do is switch in gyarados or something, get rid of aero, sac whoever i have out to scout a little, then bring azelf back in as if the game had just started. what's real nice about most heavy offense teams is even if you're fighting luck or bad team matchup, you can get yourself out of almost any situation by just sacrificing the mon that's out, be it to weaken counters, take down annoying lead matchups, recover from repeated stone misses, anything. The team functions exactly the same way when you have 3 mons left as when you have 6. there is no 'if x dies y sweeps' with heavy offense because rather than use pokemon to cover threats, you use the whole team to just not give threats time to be threats. if your opponent knows your team beforehand and has an aero lead, yes, it can be an uphill battle, but generally with whichever mon you switch in, you can kill aero and do a little bit of scouting or do a whole shitload of scouting (if aero switches out), meaning you can usually start the game anew at 5-5 (in which case your team functions as if new while theirs has lost an integral team member, meaning the game is in your favor) or 5-6 but with an adequate amount of scouting to justify the defecit. those of you who are familiar with chess may liken this situation to an opening such as the king's gambit bdg, where you give up the pawn in order to gain a lead in development.


btw of course not every game plays out like this and the real skill is in having the good judgment to use what limited scouting you do and plan accordingly. bad team matchups hinder ho, but not stop it. counterteaming beforehand stops it, but if you're getting counterteamed you're fucked no matter what kind of team you've got.

 

[Mikey229]

This post made me really happy for two reasons. First, it talks about my favorite team type, I hate using defensive teams, for me, it's all about pushing for the win. Second, I like that for that example team, Scizor was not in it. I think when people think of offense, they think of Scizor only now, because of Bullet Punch. It's good to see you showed that Scizor isn't the only offensive option to get the job done.

 

[Olliert]

Scizor isn't really good in HO. The 2 most viable sets are the Choce Bander and the SD set. The Choice Bander is really out of the question because the main purpose of HO is to set up, sweep, sac, repeat. When using choice users it requires a team of pokemon that can switch in a recover the momentum lost by the choice attacker and HO just doesn't have that, it needs to stay on the offensive with the momentum in its hands. Furthermore, CB Scizor is mostly used as a check to huge threats such as DD mence after it has set up a DD but with HO, the opposing sweepers don't get time to set up and so have no time to really become a threat. The SD could be used but it is supposed to set up against weaker attackers and walls such as those found on stall so that it can roost off any damage done and continue to set up. However HO pretty much runs through stall and so SD Scizor is not needed; on top of this, there are plenty of better choices for that slot especially on HO so Scizor is rarely used.

 

[_Flygon_]

i disagree with this, sded lo bullet punch is just amazing when facing other offense teams.

 

[bro fist]

i disagree with this, sded lo bullet punch is just amazing when facing other offense teams.

I agree with the fact that it's somewhat viable. However, as previously stated, with Scizor used primarily to check certain threats nowadays, there are just better options when it comes to Hyper Offense.

 

[Maxim]

What happens with no switch?

This looks like a very fun and interesting concept.

I just have one question though, the strategy states that once a poke goes down, you switch in a new pokemon, then you set up on the switch.

My question is, What happens if they don't decide to switch?

To illustrate my point, I'll give an example.

Say I'm fighting with my heavy offense team [not the sample one given], and my Salamence has just bit the dust via a Scizor's Bullet Punch. Since my main Scizor counter, Infernape, was destroyed earlier, I decide to switch in the only thing left on my team with a Bullet Punch resistance, Lucario. Now, since neither my opponent or I are the best players out there, I think that Scizor's going to switch out, getting me a swords dance, when suddenly, it pulls out a Superpower. Lucario's down, and now that I know it doesn't have a choice band, my Dragonite actually has enough bulk to finish it off [don't ask my why I'm using two dragons].

I know that's a rather poor example, but it gets the point across.

 

[chenman333]

Scizor is very useful to stop other offensive threats from killing yours. Without Scizor, stuff like Gengar and Azelf can become considerably more annoying; Scizor fixes up that problem very well.

Without Scizor, you become quite vulnerable to fast, fragile offense, as rare as it is now.

 

[13blue101]

When running the Water based HO/Rain team thing, Scizor is undoubtedly a great choice if you want a late game guy or useful check. With your Rain Sweepers taking out things like Tran and Rotom with no problem and other's Scizor coming in to BP your Rain guys, this gives Scizor a much easier time to get in an SD and sweep.

 

[reyscarface]

I find Scizor extremely useful in HO. First of all, it completely destroys lead Swamperts after Azelf dies to them, which nothing on my team can do reliably besides Scizor. It can as well come in on Aero's Taunt, forcing it to Stealth Rock up, while finishing it with Bullet Punch and not losing a single bit of HP. It also beats most of the "defensive" pokemon in a bulky offense team, something that could be hard to accomplish otherwise.

@ Maxim - That usually does not happen, since most of the time youll have the dual screens up, if you play Salamence correctly. Now, in the case that happens, youll have to pay a lot of attention to damage calculations. If his BP did 65% to Mence, its a CB Scizor, so you can bring in Luke reliably, if you have no way whatsoever to check out the calc, youll need to think a little bit better, and look for items, leftovers or life orb, etc. Anyways, you shouldnt really bring Luke in Scizor, since BP does 40% to it, your sweep will be shorter. This is one of the reasons I have Metagross, who sets up easily in Scizor, as well as Kingdra and my own Scizor.

 

[mtr]

This team is a blast to use. I'm running a Dual Screen Alakazam over Azelf just as a guaranteed way of beating LeadApe and a fast Encore that can help beat stuff like DDTar and cripple Swamperts who use SR, which is problematic, but it's not much different. I would love to see turn-by-turn log analyses later, and I can contribute some if you would like once I get acclimated to this style of team.

EDIT: A Cresselia with Thunder Wave can be an annoyance. So I might try an SDLO Scizor somewhere. Also, although I despise Tyranitar because of Sand Stream, it might sadly be necessary for the Rotom formes, scarfed versions of which are exceedingly annoying.

 

[reyscarface]

Zam is good to get momentum, but the terrible downside of using it is that you wont get rocks up, something HO really loves.

 

[mtr]

Zam is good to get momentum, but the terrible downside of using it is that you wont get rocks up, something HO really loves.

I know. Zam is basically a more specialized version of Azelf.

If using Zam, might it be worth using a Bronzong or whatever to transition later in the game?