Exactly my point though. You go into the match at a clear disadvantage and have to hope for more mistakes than is actually likely, while not making mistakes of your own AT ALL. XD
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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The point of my post was to show that if ferrothorn did sucessful switch into a PuP, that unless kanga was running fireblast or eq it wasn't killing ferrothorn for nothing, it was left with 3hp, now usually trading your lead/wall for your opponents mega is a good thing. Still No one want to run ferrothorn on all their teams and have the luck of the gods to predict all the switchs, so as i stated in my first post mega khan is broke, because of a multitude of reasons, mainly its ability/ it single weakness/ also its potontail for perfect coverage/ Ans of course no true counters
The 'variables' like correct prediction favors Khan though. An incorrect prediction is likely not going to cost Khan its life, at worst it will force a switch. An incorrect prediction by the opponent could cost the match once the one pokemon that had any hope of stopping it ends up getting taken out. Like I said, even ghosts are not safe to switch in when its one of the most obvious things to do and your opponent knows whether or not you have any with team preview. Prediction accuracy is tilted in Khan's favor, as is the risk/reward.
Yep, pretty right on the money there. I'm just saying it's not ''impossible''. It's just kinda impossible? I would say you have, like, a 5-10% chance too win XD, unless your're running the same kind of team, in which case it's up too which Mega Kanga gets initiative first I would assume.
So stacked, if you knew that much about an opponents team before making your own, assuming equal play, and no hax you could beat that team easily. So knowing 4 of your pokemon your opponent makes a perfect counter team. But if all your opponents teams were just like that you might wins heaps but that seems like the meta might be abit over centralized.
Lol right i was thinking about gen V, I didn't know how many counters existd for Hydreigon in this gen since I've never used it.
And Togekiss, and Azumarril, and Florgress, and any Fairy except Mawile / Kefliki.
you should probably have something that can kill a ferrothorn, since it 100% walls that mega kanga, i would assume it also trades with talonflame. So your team needs a special sweeper say togekiss (who just so happens to have access to both wish and a cleric move). Pretty sure that if your running mega kanga your probably also running suitable suport for it, so a cleric/ wish passer is fairly likely.
Hydreigon commonly runs Flash cannon to deal with these, but without, it's hopelessly walled obv ;). Or, at very least, Flash Cannon is recommended, especially since Dark Pulse hit's steel type neutrally now.
At some point, I have to wonder if it isn't coming to a time where Smogon shouldn't have a Spot battle-rules based tier, split apart from the VGC tier(since the general wif-fi Spot battle system has different rules.) We are starting to see a larger group of anti-ban players popping up that, I think, comes with the increasing ease of competitive Pokemon via Wi-fi, that want to be good both in the world of Smogon and in the world of wi-fi, and see the bans as something that is going against their own, better, general desires. I think this would allow more Smogon users to find some peace with the bans, and allow a group of players to come up with move-sets viable for the Spot-Battle system that would not be viable in Smogon competitive play nor the VGC.
Counter teaming is not a very good idea, over preparing for one team type is gonna make it so you end being destroyed by any other team archetype, or make it so small changes in the opposing team you counter teamed screws you.
If your battle 6v6 then your playing by smogon rules, and you hope your opponent does too. That being said something that are balanced according to smogon may actually be broken when battling via wifi as %dmg is slightly higher at level 50.
Indeed. I only had four of the pokemon covered, leaving two spots open. Got things like Heatran about to come in with Pokebank, you can run Vocarona who will just devastate Ferrothorn, etc. Again, I am giving them a benefit of the doubt that there are no Wish supporters and the like. I am just saying that even without them, M-Kanga with a team that covers its few weaknesses totally ruins everything.
You mean a tier with no real rules or restrictions? We already have an Ubers tier. What little rules remain are largely irrelevant in the context of the advice and movesets given, I'd say.... people hate playing there because of seeing broken things like uber legendaries or even Blaziken and those same people will still come here without having a modicum of understanding in the competitive scene and still complain about bans. Even if we had more thorough discussions for winning in random wi-fi, it wont help because most of the people who do come in here with their invalid arguments don't actually play in environments where these rules are applied in the first place...
We make a discussion forum for battle spot in-game battling... but the second we open a new thread in standard OU about quickbanning/suspect testing something that might be broken, these slobbering shit-wizards that only play in free battle will march on over anyway and spout their misinformed nonsense about how wrong it is to impose any rules like that, or that they've never had any problems in THEIR experience or other braindead circular arguments.
There actually is a battle spot ladder on Showdown.
Actually, playing enough Battle Spot should give you an idea of how overcentralising M-Khan's very presence is. People want that in OU why?
It si simply broken, if you banned Gengarite, bann Kangaskhanite too
i was trying to imply that megakanga was overcentralizing the game. Hence should be banned, as "countering" m-khan is neccesary or you lose anyway. (there isn't any counters)
A lot of people seem to hold the fear that smogon flirts with being "banhappy" when it comes to its OU decisions. I actually broadly think this is a healthy mentality; only the bare minimum should be made illegal in the standard metagame. Sirlin's Playing to Win series helpfully posits that bans should only occur in the most dire of circumstances (ie. an element so powerful the game wasn't meant to handle it, such as Street Fighter's Akuma, or something which otherwise pulverizes most of its matchups with little trouble, such as Metaknight in Brawl (although even that one is iirc still hotly debated)). I think fundamentally uncompetitive elements like MGengar, multi-Sleep and OHKO moves easily qualify; BW2 Keldeo does not.
HOWEVER -- and this is something I've had to mentally adjust to with Pokemon -- when you're dealing with upwards of 800 threats, most of which are viably customizable and MANY of which are specifically designed to be incredibly unbalanced and powerful for flavor to begin with (broadly, legendaries), you're naturally going to have a disproportionate amount of banworthy components compared to other games. I believe MKang is far and away the most straightforwardly bannable pokemon to hit the scene in a long time. He simply plays like an Uber: steamrolling switch-ins with little effort or prediction, finding ample set-up opportunities with one of its coverage moves and any number of viable teammates, boasting limited and very weak counters who serve little utility outside of putting a shaky stop to this one incredibly powerful threat.
As a newer player (very long-time lurker, started playing Showdown in the last months of BW2 where I had a lot of fun and success with a braindead rain team), I honestly have trouble summoning the willpower to hit the ladder right now with MKang running rampant. I adore the Mega mechanics and all the other competitive-minded changes XY brought to OU, especially creative threats like Gale Wings Talonflame and the great Stance Changer and even the other extremely powerful Megas (Luc, Pinsir, Mawile, none of whom I think are close to bannable and I think add great flavor to the game). But MKang causes me pretty bad anxiety. It makes the games unfold in ways I feel they shouldn't -- forcing multiple carefully selected successive sacrifices for non-specialized/teched-out teams to take down -- a solid grounds for just getting rid of the damn thing so people can play the game again.
EDIT: Actually I'd like to add that I don't think Seismic Toss/Wish/Protect/Crunch with mad bulk has been getting enough love in this thread. I think the set is incredibly strong and cool, and while I don't believe it's nearly as unmanageable as PuP, a mon this good having multiple extremely viable roles is scary.
HOWEVER -- and this is something I've had to mentally adjust to with Pokemon -- when you're dealing with upwards of 800 threats, most of which are viably customizable and MANY of which are specifically designed to be incredibly unbalanced and powerful for flavor to begin with (broadly, legendaries), you're naturally going to have a disproportionate amount of banworthy components compared to other games. I believe MKang is far and away the most straightforwardly bannable pokemon to hit the scene in a long time. He simply plays like an Uber: steamrolling switch-ins with little effort or prediction, finding ample set-up opportunities with one of its coverage moves and any number of viable teammates, boasting limited and very weak counters who serve little utility outside of putting a shaky stop to this one incredibly powerful threat.
As a newer player (very long-time lurker, started playing Showdown in the last months of BW2 where I had a lot of fun and success with a braindead rain team), I honestly have trouble summoning the willpower to hit the ladder right now with MKang running rampant. I adore the Mega mechanics and all the other competitive-minded changes XY brought to OU, especially creative threats like Gale Wings Talonflame and the great Stance Changer and even the other extremely powerful Megas (Luc, Pinsir, Mawile, none of whom I think are close to bannable and I think add great flavor to the game). But MKang causes me pretty bad anxiety. It makes the games unfold in ways I feel they shouldn't -- forcing multiple carefully selected successive sacrifices for non-specialized/teched-out teams to take down -- a solid grounds for just getting rid of the damn thing so people can play the game again.
EDIT: Actually I'd like to add that I don't think Seismic Toss/Wish/Protect/Crunch with mad bulk has been getting enough love in this thread. I think the set is incredibly strong and cool, and while I don't believe it's nearly as unmanageable as PuP, a mon this good having multiple extremely viable roles is scary.
I think the fact that all of Kang's defenders are treating it like a Raid Boss is solid evidence that it is Ubers status.
They're coming up with all these strategies to kill or cripple M.Kang that won't switch out at the cost of 2-3 Pokemon and act as if they've won the game.
What usually happens is:
- 1~ M.Kang comes in on something it doesn't die to and can Return/PuPx1 for KO.
- You switch out to something with a better match-up.
- A) M.Kang uses Power-Up Punch if there is no Ghost on your roster. B) Uses Scrappy-PuP/Crunch if it expects the Ghost switch. C) Uses +0 Return if it expects a "fast Fighting" pokemon.
- A) M.Kang kills what you switched in with +2 Return/Sucker Punch. B) Kills your Ghost with +0/+1 Crunch. C) Just killed your "fast Fighting" pokemon.
- M.Kang is at or near full HP. 2~ You switch in a Revenge killer that either A) Kills M.Kang, B) Hurts M.Kang, C) Cripples M.Kang.
- A/C) M.Kang switches out into something that resists/immune Fighting/WoW/Thunder Wave. B/C) M.Kang takes damage but kills your Revenge/Crippler.
- A/C) Return to 1~. B/C) Return to 2~.
The only variation I can imagine is Sableye coming in and burning M.Kang before the 2nd Crunch kills it and stalling past Crunch's Defense debuff for Burn damage.
You go through hoops to finally kill it and hope they throw even more Pokemon at your Mega for you to come back.
They're coming up with all these strategies to kill or cripple M.Kang that won't switch out at the cost of 2-3 Pokemon and act as if they've won the game.
What usually happens is:
- 1~ M.Kang comes in on something it doesn't die to and can Return/PuPx1 for KO.
- You switch out to something with a better match-up.
- A) M.Kang uses Power-Up Punch if there is no Ghost on your roster. B) Uses Scrappy-PuP/Crunch if it expects the Ghost switch. C) Uses +0 Return if it expects a "fast Fighting" pokemon.
- A) M.Kang kills what you switched in with +2 Return/Sucker Punch. B) Kills your Ghost with +0/+1 Crunch. C) Just killed your "fast Fighting" pokemon.
- M.Kang is at or near full HP. 2~ You switch in a Revenge killer that either A) Kills M.Kang, B) Hurts M.Kang, C) Cripples M.Kang.
- A/C) M.Kang switches out into something that resists/immune Fighting/WoW/Thunder Wave. B/C) M.Kang takes damage but kills your Revenge/Crippler.
- A/C) Return to 1~. B/C) Return to 2~.
The only variation I can imagine is Sableye coming in and burning M.Kang before the 2nd Crunch kills it and stalling past Crunch's Defense debuff for Burn damage.
You go through hoops to finally kill it and hope they throw even more Pokemon at your Mega for you to come back.
Applaud this man, you're like, one of the few persons who bothered to get you facts straight :D. Thumbs up, and nice first post ;).
People are starting to catch on the subject of "Smogon is too banhappy!" and "Smogon sacks because it bans my favorite pokemon!". Now I want to remind you people, that 99% of the bans(that 1% is the quickbans) is banned by US. Yes, US. Not smogon, not gf, us the community. thats what suspect testing is for. The COMMUNITY decides who we ban. The smogon simply asks the question:"Should we or should we not?" and its us who makes teh decisions. As can be seen here, smogon has chosen to ASK us if we want to ban mega kang or not. So stop blaiming smogon for the bans, if you want someone to blame, blame the people voting on suspect tests, they are the true people behind banning the pokemon.
Guys, what did I say earlier?
Where's my cookie? I told you that Mega Kangaskhan would make people not play (and of course if it did, in a centralized and unimaginative environment), so I just want to be the guy that says "called it!"
If a Pokemon is over centralizing a metagame because of how broken it is, it will put off others from wanting to play. gnr61 is perfect proof of this. What else does it take to prove to the "often seen as ignorant" anti-ban side that Mega Momma is broken? Sure, there's no problem with naming both sides of the argument--in fact, it's encouraged, but this is an argument that is practically one sided to begin with.
Thank you for posting, gnr61. It's definitely good insight as to what a broken Pokemon can do to new players.
Thank the all mighty Arceus that there are people that understand how banning works around here.
I started viewing this thread from an unbiased standpoint because I've never used the thing and I wanted to see all of the best arguments from both standpoints. To be honest, all of you people that say Mega Kanga should stay in OU really have no good arguments to oppose the arguments of the ban enthusiasts.
Reiterating something already said but for the benefit of new members:
If Mega Mom gets banned, it will open up opportunities to run different Megas on each team. As of now, there is literally zero reason to not run Mega Mom as your Mega. No other Mega even comes close to her power in OU right now, except maybe Mega Luke Skywalker (which is hindered by frailty and a weakness to common Ground, Fighting and Fire moves).
I for one would love to see different Megas on each team I fight, wouldn't you?
If Mega Mom gets banned, it will open up opportunities to run different Megas on each team. As of now, there is literally zero reason to not run Mega Mom as your Mega. No other Mega even comes close to her power in OU right now, except maybe Mega Luke Skywalker (which is hindered by frailty and a weakness to common Ground, Fighting and Fire moves).
I for one would love to see different Megas on each team I fight, wouldn't you?
I made it be in my interest to try all the Megas, so I have made teams for almost all of them. They are all pretty viable, but it's difficult to justify their use with Mega Kanga around, I agree. Mega Medicham is one of those super underrated Megas, I used him and got myself too 1900 ranking without too much trouble. I want too see more of stuff like that too :).
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