1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Keldeo [available from June 23rd to August 31st]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Bloo, Sep 18, 2010.

  1. Bloo

    Bloo
    is a Tutoris a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris Smogon Frontier's Pike Queenis a Past WCoP Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier
    Head TD

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,835
    [​IMG]
    Kerudio

    Kerudio is an interesting new Pokémon introduced in Generation V that appears to have the potential to be a top-tier threat. This thread is dedicated to the discussion of the Pokémon competitively. Do not discuss whether it or any other Pokémon will / should be banned. Enjoy!

    Code:
    [B]#647 Kerudio[/B]
    [B]Typing:[/B] Water / Fighting
    [B]Ability:[/B] Justice Heart - Raises attack when hit by a Dark-type attack
    
    [B]Base Stats:[/B]
    HP: 91
    Attack: 72
    Defense: 90
    Special Attack: 129
    Special Defense: 90
    Speed: 108 
    
    [B]Level Up Moves:
    [/B]Lv1: Aqua Jet 
    Lv1: Leer
    Lv7: Double Kick 
    Lv13: Bubblebeam  
    Lv19: Take Down
    Lv25: Helping Hand 
    Lv31: [M514] 
    Lv37: Aqua Tail
    Lv43: [M533]
    Lv49: Swords Dance
    Lv55: [M501]
    Lv61: [M526] 
    Lv67: Hydro Pump
    Lv73: Close Combat
    [B]
    Learnable TMs:[/B]
    TM04 - Calm Mind
    TM05 - Roar 
    TM06 - Toxic
    TM07 - Hail
    TM10 - Hidden Power
    TM12 - Taunt
    TM15 - Hyper Beam
    TM17 - Protect
    TM18 - Rain  Dance
    TM20 - Safeguard
    TM21 - Frustration
    TM27 - Return
    TM32 - Double Team
    TM33 - Reflect
    TM40 - Aerial Ace
    TM42 - Facade
    TM44 - Rest
    TM48 - Troll
    TM52 - Focus Blast
    TM54 - False Swipe
    TM55 - Boiling Water
    TM67 - Get Even
    TM68 - Giga Impact
    TM71 - Stone Edge
    TM75 - Swords Dance
    TM77 - Psych Up 
    TM81 - X-Scissor
    TM83 - Cheer Up
    TM84 - Poison Jab
    TM87 - Swagger 
    TM90 - Substitute 
    TM94 - Rock Smash
    HM01 - Cut
    HM03 - Surf
    HM04 - Strength
    
    
    If you look through the above, you'll notice that Kerudio has a few interesting toys to play around with. Some of these include:

    • Access to Cheer Up, Calm Mind, & Swords Dance
      One of the best new boosting moves, having access to Cheer Up (+1 Atk / +1 SpA) lets Kerudio go mixed with its already excellent Speed stat. This is really the dealmaker for Kerudio, and I fully expect almost every set bar Choice-locked sets to use it. As if that weren't good enough, Kerudio also has Swords Dance to set up and abuse his attacks with. Swords Dance and Close Combat are a very deadly combination. Calm Mind in conjunction with Hydro Pump and Focus Blast is definitely something to watch out for, as well.
    • Justice Heart
      If the rumor is true, Justice Heart raises attack when hit by a Dark-type attack. This lets Kerudio switch in and set up against most Dark-type Pokémon, especially Tyranitar. Unlike, say, Lucario, Kerudio has nothing to fear from anything Tyranitar can immediately do. This makes Kerudio especially deadly, since it can set up against potentially popular Pokémon immediately. Resistance to Dark-type attacks lets him come in without much worry of Stealth Rock and Spikes either, which is handy for a sweeper. The attack boost is an added bonus. Imagine switching in on a Tyranitar's Crunch, using Swords Dance on the switch, and having a +3 STAB Aqua Jet to wreck stuff with - that's absolutely insane!
    • Powerful STAB priority
      As if having Swords Dance weren't enough, Kerudio also has access to Aqua Jet. Aqua Jet lets him set up and even nail faster Pokémon, all of which are rather physically frail given that they have to be very fast to catch Kerudio's base 108 Speed.
    • Sword of Mystery
      Sword of Mystery is basically a Fighting-type version of Psycho Break: uses Kerudio's Special Attack stat to hit your opponent's defense. This means that Kerudio will have no problem smashing through the special defensive behemoth known as mystery.
    Here are a couple of sets I have in mind for Kerudio. Big thanks to Rey for helping me come up with these!

    Calm Mind

    Kerudio @ Life Orb / Leftovers
    Ability: Justice Heart
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Spe / 252 SpA
    -Calm Mind
    -Surf / Hydro Pump
    -Sword of Mystery
    -HP Electric / Taunt

    Kerudio gets yet another boosting move in Calm Mind, giving it the potential to become a deadly special attacker. The Special Defense loss given from a Naive nature if offset by Calm Mind and Kerudio's great Special Defense stat.

    Taunt pretty much means Blissey can't touch you with Thunder Wave and Toxic, allowing Kerudio to set up a couple of Calm Mind's, giving it an opportunity to slaughter anything foolish enough to stand in its way. Taunt also prevents Vaporeon, and Suicune from phazing you out with Roar, allowing Kerudio to set up on them with Calm Mind, and them dealing a hefty amount of damage with Focus Blast. The best Vaporeon and Suicune can do to Kerudio is HP Electric, which probably won't be 2HKOing without heavy special attack investment, since Kerudio has a solid 90 base Special Defense.
    __________________

    Swords Dance

    Kerudio @ Life Orb / Leftovers
    Ability: Justice Heart
    Nature: Adamant / Jolly
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    -Swords Dance
    -Aqua Jet / X-Scissor / Stone Edge / Taunt
    -Close Combat
    -Aqua Tail

    Even though Kerudio has a mediocre 79 base Attack, it can utilize Swords Dance to become a fearsome physical threat. STAB priority in Aqua Jet is a great asset, while a SD boosted Aqua Tail + Close Combat can rip holes in numerous Pokémon, while providing excellent coverage as well. The second slot is up for grabs. Without X-Scissor, Celebi walls you. Without Stone Edge, you'll have trouble with Gyarados. And without Taunt, you can't prevent stuff from phazing you out. Personally, I think Aqua Jet is the best option here, but, some of you may beg to differ. What move do you guys think is best in the second slot?
    __________________

    Cheer Up

    Kerudio@ Life Orb / Leftovers
    Ability: Justice Heart
    Nature: Hasty / Naive
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Cheer Up
    -Sword of Mystery
    -Hydro Pump / Surf
    -Stone Edge

    With Cheer Up boosting its exceptional 129 base Special Attack and decent 79 base Attack, Kerudio has the potential to become a massive offensive threat in Generation V. Resistances to priority moves like Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, and Sucker Punch is a huge plus as well. Swords of Mystery is a special move with 85 base power move, and 100 accuracy. It's rumored to hit for physical damage. If this is true, you can smash Pokémon like Blissey and Snorlax for serious damage. Though, this set is largely outclassed by Kerudio's Calm Mind set, since it can do everything this can, but better.
    __________________

    Overall, I think Kerudio can prove to be a force to be reckoned with in Generation V. With great bulk, access to Cheer Up, Calm Mind, Swords Dance, and several powerful attacks, I can see it causing devastation, leaving only dust in its wake. I'll leave this thread open for discussion. feel free to post new sets, your opinion on Kerudio, Pokémon that can stop it, and anything else you guys feel warrant discussion! I'm looking forward to what you guys have to say!
  2. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 12 Championis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,308
    This thing is really cool. Swimming Goggles seems like it was made for it. It has a great speed stat on its own, but with this it means outspeeding almost everything. On top of that it gets a move that raises both its attacking stats and a great mixed movepool. I'm really looking forward to trying this thing out. It's going to be hard to figure out what it's using because Swords Dance and Calm Mind have their own merit and can easily fit a niche in any team. I agree with you, this will definitely be top tier for standard play.
  3. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,806
    This Pokemon looks totally boss. I'm particularly interested in the Cheer Up set, which allows it to attack with a boosted Hydro Pump and Close Combat from a comfortable Speed stat of 108. Not like it matters that it'll tie with Infernape unless it ends up being seriously susceptible to Grass Knot (which I kind of doubt given its size, but who knows). That said, I also like that it just has so many options available to it for boosting. It's unfortunate that it doesn't get Aura Sphere for the CM set, but what can you do. Definitely looking forward to giving this guy a try.
  4. R.B.G.

    R.B.G.

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    I'm loving Swimming Goggles on this thing. This is the 4th member of that legendary trio/quartet I suppose?
  5. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,181
    Kerudio is one of those pokemon that combines two of the best offensive typings in an excellent way.

    A simple moveset of Cheer Up / Close Combat / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam would allow it to utilize its higher offensive stat to the fullest, employing STAB Close Combat to muscle through the likes of Blissey and Empoleon who would otherwise wall the set.

    That said, its attack isn't stellar (it is lower than Froslass, to be honest), which means that it could run into serious trouble with the bulky waters. Suicune, Vaporeon, and Starmie especially threaten to Roar it out/zap it with powerful electric attacks, the former two regaining health in the process with Water Absorb.
  6. reyscarface

    reyscarface
    is a Tiering Contributoris Smogon Frontier's Tower Tycoondefeated the Smogon Frontier

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2008
    Messages:
    5,708
    Doesnt get Ice Beam sadly, me and Bloo checked up, so X-Scissor or HP Ice are your best bets for the grasses.

    Not a lot more I can add, since you know, we spoke a fuckload about this thing on IRC eventually making up these sets lol, but yeah, the other sets that can be viable that you didnt add are a support one with Toxic and Roar, or a Roar Calm Minder, kind of like Suicune and Latias, though sadly this thing has no Recovery, limiting it on those aspects.
  7. giggity69

    giggity69

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    362
    Kerudio @ Swimming Goggles
    Hasty 76 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

    Cheer Up
    Hydro Pump
    HP [Electric]
    Close Combat

    I really wish it learned Thunderbolt, but running HP electric will mitigate (Kind of) the problems with bulky waters.


    Edit : The evs are trivial and will depend on the actual boost the goggles give you.
  8. Lugia12341

    Lugia12341

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    I just Realized!!! Kerudio is the PERFECT counter to Darkrai!!! Not only is it fighting (which resists darkrai), but if the data on its ability is correct, then it absorbs and neutralizes all dark attacks (Hopefully including dark void) but also, if darkrai uses trick on it and it has the swimming goggles, then Darkrai gets put to sleep!!! Its perfect!
  9. Wisher

    Wisher

    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Messages:
    10
    Hm. This guy might make a fantastic anitlead. If the SG really give a +1 bonus, He could start off with a max of 519 speed, and taunt any stealth rock lead from last generation. Then he can proceed to wreak havoc with his attacking moves.
  10. TEA_DEMON

    TEA_DEMON

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,466
    Kerudio is interesting in that it has low attack but a Swords Dance set is actually very viable simply due to its typing really. Swords Dance/Aqua Jet/Close Combat/Stone Edge has pretty fantastic coverage and priority tops it all off. The speed is nice for a Swords Dancer, and it could even run a mixed SD set with Hydro Pump or something instead of Stone Edge to smack ghosts and physical walls harder.
  11. Haunter

    Haunter 100% avocado
    is an official Team Rateris a Battle Server Administratoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris an Administratoris a Tutor Alumnus
    Líder máximo

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Messages:
    6,005
    This is a very interesting Pokemon. It can work similarly to Infernape as a mixed attacker, sharing the same base Speed but with a way higher SpA stat and excellent defences to work with. This thing is going to be a stable OU Pokemon in Gen V in my opinion. Resistance to bullet punch, sucker punch and aqua jet is just a bonus.
  12. Bloo

    Bloo
    is a Tutoris a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris Smogon Frontier's Pike Queenis a Past WCoP Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier
    Head TD

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,835
    This has caught my interest! Do you have an idea for a moveset? If so, feel free to post it here and I'll add it into the OP of this thread.

    That didn't cross my mind! Now that I think of it, that's actually pretty sweet. With Swimming Goggles, Kerudio is faster than Darkrai, so you can switch-in, and watch it run away in fear of Kerudio's powerful Fighting-type attacks. Kerudio is pretty much makes an ideal way of handling Dark-types :)

    Yeah, its low attack is a bummer, but what can you do. A specially oriented set will likely be more popular on Kerudio, so running HP Electric, as giggity69 stated, is an option. A Cheer Up boosted, Life Orb HP Electric should deal loads to most bulky Waters. It's also a shame it doesn't have Ice Beam! That would be a great way to punish Dragon-types, and various Grasses.

    Other than bulky Waters, I've been thinking of things that can stop Kerudio in its tracks, and I've come up with one after reading whistle's thread. Burunkeru's sports an immunity to Kerudio's Fighting-type attacks and immunity to its Water-type STABs (since it has Water Absorb). It also has access to Will-O-Wisp and Recover, meaning it can cripple Kerudio, and replenish any health it may have lost in the process. Kerudio has nothing in its arsenal (as far as I'm aware) that allow it to break through Burunkeru, so this Pokémon is definitely going to be a thorn in Kerudio's side. Are there any other Pokémon you guys can think of that may give this little guy some trouble?
  13. Logan

    Logan

    Joined:
    May 16, 2006
    Messages:
    842
    Well damn you sold me on this pokemon. It doesn't look like much in its sprite, lol.

    Kerudio @ Swimming Goggles
    Adamant Nature
    -Swords Dance
    -Aqua Jet
    -Close Combat
    -Taunt

    That seems good enough to me. EVS who knows at this point, enough speed to outrun whatever, enough attack to Ko certain shit, and the rest in bulk to shrug off bulky waters that don't have an elecric move. Seriously, come in on tyranitar and get that +1, then SD on the switch for +3 and tear shit up with Close Combat. Taunt Burunkeru before switching out, then it can't do shit. Taunt Gyarados, and basically everything with that 519 speed (???) before getting out. Shit like Zapdos can probably take even a +3 Aqua Jet or Close Clombat too. But the two moves can still take out a lottttt. I know it's early to say but this pokemon looks too good. I'll definitly use it lol

    edit: i just remembered how low its attack is. I guess it does need to go mixed.
  14. doomvendingmachine

    doomvendingmachine
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    1,089
    i was fawning over terakion earlier (who i still think will be good), but this guy seems like he could possibly be the best of the new fighting/other type legendaries (even though he's not part of terakion's trio, but still). Looking at some of the posted sets above, this little guy could be a monster.
  15. red12345

    red12345

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    166
    So far, its movepool is complimentary with its stats. Sweet. Considering the fact that there are a few undiscovered moves!

    Judging from the moves released so far, I am confident that Close Combat still remains as one of the best moves in the game and the quartet will def benefit from their fighting type. If Justice Heart gives them immunity to Dark, that is the cherry on the top of the cake. A giant crushing cake.
  16. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,658
    I am thinking Taunt / Calm Mind / Hydro Pump / Focus Blast @ Goggles, maybe with Tyranitar to trap Latias and kill sun and stuff. No need to CC Blissey. It's not coming in straight away in case you SD, and by the time you've got a CM it's too late because you can Taunt it, CM a couple of times and then slaughter it with Focus Blast.
  17. Bloo

    Bloo
    is a Tutoris a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris Smogon Frontier's Pike Queenis a Past WCoP Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier
    Head TD

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,835
    Ah, yes, Taunt! That seems like an excellent move choice. It pretty much means Blissey can't touch you with Thunder Wave and Toxic, allowing Kerudio to set up a couple of Calm Mind's, giving it an opportunity to slaughter anything foolish enough to stand in its way. Taunt also prevents Vaporeon, and Suicune from phazing you out with Roar, allowing Kerudio to set up on them with Calm Mind, and them dealing a hefty amount of damage with Focus Blast. The best Vaporeon and Suicune can do to Kerudio is HP Electric, which probably won't be 2HKOing without heavy special attack investment, since Kerudio has a solid 90 base Special Defense. I guess Kerudio will still have trouble against Bounce variants of Gyarados, though.

    Haha, yeah. Though, the Burunkeru user can always opt to use Boiling Water (a Water-type move that deals damage while having a chance to burn the target) instead of Will-O-Wisp on Kerudio if they somehow find out you are carrying Taunt. There's always the risk of being hit by Boiling Water and being burnt if you decide to stay in and Taunt it. However, if you're gutsy enough, you can take that chance. If you want to play it safe, it might be best to immediately switch out.

    So, yeah, that was a great catch guys. I'll add it to the OP of this thread shortly. Thanks!
  18. Beej

    Beej
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2008
    Messages:
    574
    Though Kerudio looks to be a very powerful mon, its downside is the lack of a reliable way to hurt Pokemon that are resistant to its STABs. Bulky Grass-types have a pretty high counter potential, as they don't have to rely upon secondary damage to hurt Kerudio. Grass/Poison-types are especially powerful in that they resist both STABs. Morobaeru (the mushroom/pokeball mon) has 114/70/80 defenses and Regeneration heals its HP by a third when it switches out, so I would say it has a lot going for it as a counter. If Kerudio doesn't run X-Scissor, Celebi will basically walk all over it (assuming the horse is a pretty light Pokemon, it would probably lead Celebi to run Leaf Storm), and Shaymin can probably hold its own too.

    Psychic-types also hold a lot of ground against Kerudio. Slowbro has the same Regeneration thing going for it that Morobaeru does and it resists both STABs too. But a CM set would probably defeat it, considering Taunt shuts him down pretty well and Psychic won't be doing much damage after a couple of boosts. If Kerudio doesn't run Swimming Goggles (or if we're just misunderstanding the mechanics), Starmie is faster and can Thunderbolt or Psychic it while sponging a STAB attack with its resists. Also, if Latias were to be brought down to OU again, which may happen considering how much the game has changed, it would theoretically make an amazing counter to Kerudio.
  19. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,658
    Hence, Tyranitar, Beej - it deals with Latias, Celebi etc.
  20. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Factory Headis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,084
    With Swimming Goggles, you don't even need Ice Beam really, cause STAB Focus Blast will hurt all Grass-types like a mofo (bar Celebi, who looks like it will be a natural counter to this beast... but then again, X-Scissor... damn). Not to mention, 91/90/90 defenses is very bulky. Yeah, going to experiment w/ this bad ass for sure.
  21. 3.14159

    3.14159

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24
    According to serebii it gets Sword of Mystery via an in game event which should be:

    [M548] Skin Sword
    Category: Special
    Type: Fighting
    PP: 10
    Power: 85
    Acc: 100
    Additional Effect: Causes physical damage.

    Now you don't have to hope for an Attack raise of Justice Heart all you need is:

    Kerudio @ Swimming Goggles/Life Orb
    modest/timid
    -Substitute/Calm Mind
    -Hydropump/Surf
    -Skin Sword
    -HP[Ice/Dark/Ghost]
  22. shipship

    shipship

    Joined:
    May 17, 2008
    Messages:
    177
    No mention of Sub + CM?

    I guess Taunt + CM is kinda similar, but Sub + CM would work too. Sub + CM allows you to run Leftovers to take advantage of those decent defenses and great typing. It would ROFL at Blissey without SToss as well as many bulky waters that can't touch it after it CM's from behind a Sub.
  23. Green Mage

    Green Mage

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2008
    Messages:
    567
    This is one of my team members for this gen.

    There's nothing quite like a special attacker that slaughters blissey and snorlax. I think we need to have a grip on the environment before we start messing with evs and natures. You might even be able to still kill Blissey with no evs and a neutral atk nature. So i know I want close combat, hydro pump and swimming goggles. The third move will be either calm mind or cheer up, but what about that final move? HP electric to deal with tentacruel (im not sold on the water/ghost at all)?
  24. Uncommon Madness

    Uncommon Madness

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    Messages:
    124
    This is going to be my favourite set:

    Defensive Calm Minder

    Kerudio @ Leftovers
    Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
    EVs 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    - Calm Mind
    - Boiling Water/Hydro Pump
    - Focus Blast
    - Taunt

    This thing is really a beast, especially because of its amazing typing.
    With 252 HP EVs Kerudio is a lot bulkier and even without investiment it hits 688 SAtk after two Calm Minds. Boiling Water is preferred over Hydro Pump because of that awesome 30% chance of burning the target. For the last slot Taunt is the perfect move as it stops status aliments and phazers.
    Obviously it can't beat every Poké of the game but once its few counters are weakened or KOed it can easily sweep opposing teams.
  25. Solstice

    Solstice

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,269
    Well I just noticed on Serebii that Kerudio gets an exclusive move, Sword of Mystery. 85 Attack, 100 Acc, 10 PP, Special FIghting. The thing with this is that it hits for physical damage, like Psycho Shock!!!! So on Calm Mind sets it can slam Blissey, Tyranitar, Snorlax, and tons of others for MASSIVE damage!!!

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)