Kyurem

[Gah777]

...hm.

Kyurem: Rock, Dragon, Ice, Steel weak
Sazandora: Dragon, Ice, Fighting, Bug weak

...looks to me like they both have four weaknesses. :0 Just sayin'. Oh and FYI, supereffective Bug STAB is bound to be much more common this generation, too.

Kyurem is actually weak to fighting, not ice. Just sayin'.

They both have weaknesses to fairly common attack types. The biggest difference between the two are:

(pros)
Sazandora...
-is immune to Earth type moves and spikes/toxic spikes
-has a much wider movepool
-is faster
-gets U-turn

Kyurem...
-gets STAB ice attacks
-has a higher HP stat
-gets both screens
-has better wall-breaking stats

(cons)
Sazandora...
-is weak to four common attack types

Kyurem...
-has a shallow movepool
-weak to four common attack types
-is affected by spikes and toxic spikes


So maybe Kyurem was meant to be a wall-breaking supporter? Although that would be kind of hard to pull off. Wall breakers usually sacrifice a defensive stat to boost one of their offenses (I.e. a Naive nature), while supporters are much more defensive (I.e. an Impish nature). Although, the lead position seems to be a decent place for him. He may not be the best, but he's alright.

Here's the set i've been using:

Kyurem@Lefties
Nature: Modest
EVs: 104 HP/ 152 Def/ 236 SpA/ 16 SpD
-Frozen World
-Draco Meteor
-Reflect
-Light Screen

 

[Banryu]

Actually Kyurem is neutral to Ice, but is weak to Fighting.

I totally knew that. -.-'

 

[Leman]

I don't understand how anything with 130 base Atk and SAtk with STAB Draco Meteor and Outrage and incredible bulk can ever be thought of as bad. Mixed Kyurem rips holes in shit. Its probably not going to Ubers, but it can take a couple hits and do some real damage.

 

[breh]

Well... it's not going to be Uber anytime soon, but I see hail as one of its most viable sets.

Removing SS is cool, but you know what's even cooler? Spamming a perfectly accurate 120 BP STAB move that has one of the best secondary effects in the game off of 130 SpA.

I'm actually curious, has anybody tried a bulky Specs set in Hail? That's how I played glaceon in last gen UU, and that worked well.

 

[Mr.L]

For the most part, people here are focusing on what Kyuremu CAN'T do when compared to other dragons. Why not focus on what he CAN do better.

First thing that comes to mind is Porygon2, the bane of most Set-Up dragons. One great thing (even if it's the only good thing) about Kyu's Ice Typing is that he resists Ice, making him one of 2 OU Dragons to claim to do so (Kingdra, for clueless folks). Here are some Damage Calcs regarding dragons and their attempts to take down a standard 4th Gen Porygon2 (252/216/40 Bold) with Pre-evolution Stone:

252Atk Adamant LO Salamence Outrage (no boost due to Intimidate): 40.9% - 48.1% (only Chance of 2KO)(No chance w/o LO or DDance).
252Sp.A Modest LO Salamence Draco Meteor: 54% - 63.6% (about 50% chance to 2KO with Rocks Up)
252Atk +2 Adamant LO Garchomp Outrage: 79.4% - 93.9% (come in on SD, 'bout 50% chance to OHKO w/ Rocks)

Taking a hit from Duck, on the other hand:

0Sp.A Bold Porygon2 Ice Beam:

4HP Salamence: 108.4% - 127.7%
4HP Garchomp: 95% - 112.8% (OHKO after LO damage)

These are just a few, but you see my point. Now then, onto Kyuremu:

252Sp.A Modest Life Orb Focus Blast: 69.5% - 82.4% (Clean 2KO using Ice Beam afterwards)

The main difference, however, is that Kyuremu can afford to take an Ice beam.

0Sp.A Porygon2 Ice Beam: 20.7% - 24.6%

This is just one example, but I hope I've proven that Kyuremu, while having a poor movepool, should not be compared to other dragons, especially the likes of the 2 I've presented here. Each have their merits.

 

[MegaKick]

As for right now, I think that (assuming it ubers) he isnt 100% outclassed by rayquaza as i had origanally thought... the ice beam on lugia is pretty nice. And having a second mixed attacker is very nice, especielly a bulkier one. The main problem is that his best option against kyogre is outrage, and his only hope against steels is 70% accurate focus blast (hidden power fire makes you vulnerable to rayquaza) and he's weak to meteor mash/ bullet punch, as well as rocks so he cant switch out much... yeah. I'd consider magnezone/shanderra support.

As for OU, i personally would run ice beam - hp:fire - draco meteor - outrage, mayby ditching hp for sub, since even if shanderra doesnt get them all, life orb draco meteors will smash through most steels in 2 hits. With rocks, standard scizor is 2hkod by draco meteor then ice beam later. If you want to scarf your kyuremu, scizor can still be 2hkoed by meteor with rocks. Metagross suffers a similar fate, nattorie takes ice beam. the only way to stop this thing is luring an outrage and bullet punching it. Of course, that was how you stopped mence, and he went Uber last gen. Not saying omg uberz!, but he's a top tier OU thats also viable in Ubers. I am amazed.

 

[Saria]

you all realize this discussion will be moot once he gets the 2 signature moves right? top tier uber. freeze bolt and cold flare... 130 base power ice moves, 95% acc, 30% chance of burn/paralize, your choice of physical or speciel? yes please. CB with outrage and freeeze bolt? specs with cold flare, draco meteor and focus blast? lead with frozen world? mixed with either signature move? bulky status inducer? possibilities are endless.

As for right now, I think that (assuming it ubers) he isnt 100% outclassed by rayquaza as i had origanally thought... the ice beam on lugia is pretty nice. And having a second mixed attacker is very nice, especielly a bulkier one. The main problem is that his best option against kyogre is outrage, and his only hope against steels is 70% accurate focus blast (hidden power fire makes you vulnerable to rayquaza) and he's weak to meteor mash/ bullet punch, as well as rocks so he cant switch out much... yeah. I'd consider magnezone/shanderra support.

As for OU, i personally would run ice beam - hp:fire - draco meteor - outrage, mayby ditching hp for sub, since even if shanderra doesnt get them all, life orb draco meteors will smash through most steels in 2 hits. With rocks, standard scizor is 2hkod by draco meteor then ice beam later. If you want to scarf your kyuremu, scizor can still be 2hkoed by meteor with rocks. Metagross suffers a similar fate, nattorie takes ice beam. the only way to stop this thing is luring an outrage and bullet punching it. Of course, that was how you stopped mence, and he went Uber last gen. Not saying omg uberz!, but he's a top tier OU thats also viable in Ubers. I am amazed.

His signatures moves need recharge like sky attack so both are crap, nothing else to add i already said what i have to said about kyuremu

 

[AriadosPerson]

His signatures moves need recharge like sky attack so both are crap

http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/coldflare.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/freezebolt.shtml

Basically Ice-typed Lightning Strike/Blue Flame.

 

[UltraStorm]

For the most part, people here are focusing on what Kyuremu CAN'T do when compared to other dragons. Why not focus on what he CAN do better.

His few benefits have been noted, such as bulk without entry hazards, good typing against Water/Grass/Ice/Electric-based movesets and access to Frozen World. Unfortunately, many people think this usually isn't enough in comparison to other Dragons.

First thing that comes to mind is Porygon2, the bane of most Set-Up dragons. One great thing (even if it's the only good thing) about Kyu's Ice Typing is that he resists Ice, making him one of 2 OU Dragons to claim to do so (Kingdra, for clueless folks). Here are some Damage Calcs regarding dragons and their attempts to take down a standard 4th Gen Porygon2 (252/216/40 Bold) with Pre-evolution Stone:

252Atk Adamant LO Salamence Outrage (no boost due to Intimidate): 40.9% - 48.1% (only Chance of 2KO)(No chance w/o LO or DDance).
252Sp.A Modest LO Salamence Draco Meteor: 54% - 63.6% (about 50% chance to 2KO with Rocks Up)
252Atk +2 Adamant LO Garchomp Outrage: 79.4% - 93.9% (come in on SD, 'bout 50% chance to OHKO w/ Rocks)

Taking a hit from Duck, on the other hand:

0Sp.A Bold Porygon2 Ice Beam:

4HP Salamence: 108.4% - 127.7%
4HP Garchomp: 95% - 112.8% (OHKO after LO damage)

These are just a few, but you see my point. Now then, onto Kyuremu:

252Sp.A Modest Life Orb Focus Blast: 69.5% - 82.4% (Clean 2KO using Ice Beam afterwards)

The main difference, however, is that Kyuremu can afford to take an Ice beam.

0Sp.A Porygon2 Ice Beam: 20.7% - 24.6%

This is just one example, but I hope I've proven that Kyuremu, while having a poor movepool, should not be compared to other dragons, especially the likes of the 2 I've presented here. Each have their merits.

It's well known that Kyuremu can easily switch into bulky water types and others with Water/Grass/Ice/Electric-based movesets. It's one of the few useful qualities of its type but usually the other Dragons still offer better sets of resistances.

While you say Porygon2 is the bane of setup Dragons, Kyuremu can't setup itself with anything other than Claw Sharpen. And when you consider in your calculations likely entry hazard damage, LO recoil and the fact that Kyuremu has no reliable recovery, it can't switch in many times before dying itself. If you only force Porygon2 out and Focus Blast something else uselessly, you may have to take more entry hazard damage to switch in later.

You also have to watch out for Porygon2 using Toxic or Thunder Wave, which will make Kyuremu's life difficult. Toxic is common among bulky Waters as well.

 

[Mr.L]

It's well known that Kyuremu can easily switch into bulky water types and others with Water/Grass/Ice/Electric-based movesets. It's one of the few useful qualities of its type but usually the other Dragons still offer better sets of resistances.

While you say Porygon2 is the bane of setup Dragons, Kyuremu can't setup itself with anything other than Claw Sharpen. And when you consider in your calculations likely entry hazard damage, LO recoil and the fact that Kyuremu has no reliable recovery, it can't switch in many times before dying itself. If you only force Porygon2 out and Focus Blast something else uselessly, you may have to take more entry hazard damage to switch in later.

You also have to watch out for Porygon2 using Toxic or Thunder Wave, which will make Kyuremu's life difficult. Toxic is common among bulky Waters as well.

I, and i hope others, wouldn't switch in Kyu into a P2, and i was showing that Pory2 can't efficiently counter Kyu, while he does so with the others.

Also, if you were facing something where you have a clear advantage, wouldn't using Frozen world make more sense? Generally, their counter will be faster, and Frozen world near guarantee's a chance to KO, or switch to a reliable counter (no one likes to be at -2).

I know there are flaws. I never claimed Kyu's the best.

 

[UltraStorm]

I, and i hope others, wouldn't switch in Kyu into a P2, and i was showing that Pory2 can't efficiently counter Kyu, while he does so with the others.

Being able to keep Porygon2 from switching in is just more situational than being able to counter it. But I suppose you can attack with more confidence if you know Porygon2 isn't switching in.

The hard part for Kyuremu is usually switching in as well as trying to minimize residual damage. Once in, you have enough raw power to do a sizable amount of damage, although that can be said about many Dragons.

Also, if you were facing something with a clear advantage, wouldn't using Frozen world make more sense? Generally, their counter will be faster, and Frozen world near guarantee's a chance to KO, or switch to a reliable counter (no one likes to be at -2).

All counters might not be faster, so they could switch into something that doesn't mind getting hit by Ice attacks or having its speed dropped. Pokemon with priority are also a problem. You could just use Draco Meteor right off the bat although that's probably more obvious.

I know there are flaws. I never claimed Kyu's the best.

Fair enough.

 

[MegaKick]

ok, seriously, people are saying this thing's best bet when compared to other dragons is frozen world? and lack of a weakness to ice? assuming we're talking OU here, in exchange for 5 base speed (very important points, but just 5 points nonetheless) he gets the same speciel attack as latios and and almost as much attack as mence. And he has more bulk than mence. So he can be revenged by scizor, guess what, scizor probably isnt going to be the most used pokemon anymore (technically, at the end of gen4, heatran was most used anyway) and not a lot of new things i forsee carry bullet punch, vacuum wave or mach punch (besides roohpushin, who cant switch in at all). So basically, this thing when compared to mence and latios, he sacrifices a weakness to priority, a good ability, and some speed in exchange for more bulk and a hell of a lot more firepower. And a very nice ice neutrility. Definitly worth it.

Sorry if i seem worked up but it had to be said, this thing is so awesome.

 

[Venator]

Most likely in /third version/ of BW. But for now, they remain illegal moves and are not confirmed to be learned by Kyurem.

 

[SJCrew]

Really, the best thing you can do with Kyu is run him on a Hail team, give him a Choice Scarf, and spam Blizzard. STAB Ice is really awesome in OU, you guys don't even know.

 

[Ekanselttar]

Shedinja, Quagsire, and Primeape are all viable in Ubers too. It's a different metagame.

 

[Green Mage]

I built a hail team for the sole purpose of testing Kyurem on it, and I must say that his Blizzard is ridiculous in the snow. It's alot like CB Tyranitar in that it is so ridiculously strong that it cuts right through resists, and he has an almost unresisted Draco Meteor to back Blizzard up. The downside is that its ice type feels like even more of a problem on that team as you have even less to switch to after you kill something.

I feel like hail is his best option at being successful because he's completely outclassed anywhere else.

By the way, his two unreleased signature moves are hyper beams, which ensure that he will be revenge killed (already one of his prime flaws).

 

[IcyMan28]

^They are actually more like Sky Attack moves, requiring a turn of charge.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

^Where'd you hear that?

 

[Gah777]

^Where'd you hear that?

Check here:

http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/coldflare.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/freezebolt.shtml

If you read it, it says "hits on the second turn"

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Veekun has it. I also hacked a Frozen World / Freeze Bolt / Cold Flare Kyurem and the latter two moves had a charging turn.


...And using Frozen World before them didn't change anything. Damn.

 

[SupremeDirt]

Remember Power Herb. They're pretty powerful STAB'd attacks, I could see it being worth it.

 

[Granstafer]

a one time use item with a pokemon with 2 poweful moves that need charging, when he could have an item like life orb, or a revenge killing item like choice scarf? nah.

 

[FrenchVanilla]

He screams AntiLead. Slap on a Scarf, and good game.
Only thing it needs now is a damn priority move.

 

[UberOwn]

It's sad that most of you are underrating this guy. Draco Meteor comming from a 130 Sp.A is no laughing matter, including STAB. Give him Choice Scarf, cause 95 speed isn't too bad.
Surprisingly,it is able to perform better in Ubers, because it is able to outspeed most of the dragons in this tier, except Palkia. priority isnt so rampant in this tier too, so it won't be killed quickly. especially when reshiram can counter scizor.

 

[UberOwn]

rayquaza doesn't 100% outclass Kyurem though, Kyurem is bulkier 125/90/90 compared to rayquaza's 105/90/90 and has Ice STAB. rayquaza has X4 weakness against Ice