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Little Cup Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by macle, Oct 18, 2012.

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  1. Danilo

    Danilo
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    no real point in theorymonning. everyone(including me) thought that foongus was gonna be a great Pokemon. After it came out there was a lot of disappointment and it just became another okay Pokemon. Speculation is useless. Lets talk about the mons that are currently legal!
  2. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    I really don't get why we don't have Drilbur at auto S class. It is without a doubt the best Pokemon in Little Cup right now. It is the best Pokemon in either weather (99% of anti-meta Hail teams use Drilbur). It's the best Rapid Spin user without a doubt, it can break through its biggest checks (Misdreavus / Bronzor) with just an ability change. It's both anti-meta and meta. It DEFINES the meta. It should be S class.
  3. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Unplug me from this fantasy
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    I disagree with that for a few reasons, the first being that it really needs sand to function. Sand Rush is its only way to get past all the faster stuff out there that can easily murder it, and as such requires Hippopotas to function well. Sure, it can get past Bronzor with Mold Breaker, but it's taking a hit (or most likely two) from Misdreavus, and faster Mienfoo, and Staryu, and Murkrow, and...a lot of other stuff can now beat it without the Speed boost. Drilbur has 4MSS with Rapid Spin thrown in, as it has to give up either Rock Slide and get wrecked by Krow, or Shadow Claw and get burnt by Misdreavus. It could also lose SD, but then you lose a lot of power. I'm not sold on it being better than Staryu at spinning either, since Staryu has reliable recovery, Natural Cure, and can take on Frillish and, god forbid, Duskull, without fearing a burn or Scald, or both.

    There's no doubt that Drilbur is a top A-tier Pokemon, and I have used it myself to great success, but it is just not on the same level as Mienfoo, Murkrow, and Misdreavus.
  4. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    I don't really see how what you wrote even makes sense though. Drilbur is the best Pokemon in LC for the sheer amount of pros it brings to the table, even if you can't splash it into a team as easily as you can Mienfoo, Misdreavus, or Murkrow.

    1) It is the best Pokemon during weather. That is hands down irrefutable. In Sand, Drilbur is the best offensive Pokemon you can imagine, with Swords Dance and Life Orb sets aplenty, and with its crazy Speed. It's just as reliable in Hail with a Mold Breaker set as it provides Stealth Rock for Snover, Rapid Spin support for Snover, has good synergy with Snover, and beats Pokemon such as Bronzor / Magnemite that Snover has issues with. It is the best with weather up.

    2) It is the best Rapid Spin user in the tier, hands down. Staryu is not competition. Drilbur is easily the best Rapid Spin user in Sand, and I really think you're misunderstanding what it uses. Life Orb Drilbur is the best for Rapid Spin, not Swords Dance. Life Orb doesn't even ever use Swords Dance...since it's so strong already. It's a fantastic wall-breaker and supporter with Rapid Spin. Likewise, Mold Breaker Drilbur has no 4MSS either, as Stealth Rock / Rapid Spin / Earthquake / Rock Slide...has perfect coverage in LC. It is a bit weak when it comes to Lileep / other Grass-type Pokemon, so X-Scissor is an acceptable alternative. Staryu is barely even competition. It is unable to spin consistently on the best Ghost-type Pokemon in the tier, Misdreavus, and loses to the most common walls in LC, like Lileep and Chinchou. It also provides Snover a free switch. Drilbur, on the other hand, does none of those things! and can beat Misdreavus with a Life Orb Shadow Claw, or a Mold Breaker Earthquake (it's tanky enough to live with Eviolite...which is all that's used on Mold Breaker)

    3) It holds the title for best booster (in Sand), best wall breaker (in Sand), and best Rapid Spin user (overall). The fact that it dominates so many different categories is just a testament to its strength.

    If Drilbur only had Sand Rush, and was unable to be used outside of Sand, I would agree with you Hawkstar, that it was only A material. However, since it's so fucking amazing in Sand, and so fucking amazing in Hail, and just fucking amazing in GENERAL, so strong, so fast, so threatening, and so adorable, I just don't see how we can treat it as anything but S class. Its mild faults, like being smashed by most Water- and Grass-type attacks from things that outrun it do not outweigh the sheer amount of strengths it brings to the table (Mienfoo isn't A rank even if Murkrow OHKOes!). While it's not as easy to splash in a team as Mienfoo or Misdreavus, any team that includes it does so knowing it's using the best Pokemon for the job. Drilbur IS the Little Cup metagame, and deserves S rank accordingly.
  5. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Unplug me from this fantasy
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    I don't dispute that Drilbur is the best weather sweeper that is usable, since I can personally vouch for it. However, I'm still not sold on the claim that it's the best Rapid Spinner. I've never used it though, so it might surprise me, but the reason that I've never used that is because Staryu has always been a better fit.

    Defensively, Staryu takes both physical and special hits about 1-2 HP better than Drilbur does, with reliable recovery, a very useful set of resistances to Fire, Water, and Ice, alongside the rare Steel, and pseudo-immunity to status. This is of course factoring in that they are both using Eviolite, as the LO Drilbur set is obviously a lot less bulky but a lot faster and more powerful. Drilbur still has more HP, and that gives it a slight advantage percentage-wise when taking special damage. It also boasts a pretty useful immunity to Electric, but when the premiere Electric-type in the tier is also part Water, that is diminished slightly, but still very useful. Rock and Poison are much less useful resistances than Staryu's. The Life Orb set also has laughable defenses obviously, and the HP it wastes by using Rapid Spin with it, plus the damage incurred from your opponent's attack, means that set gets one chance to spin. If I'm looking for a defensive spinner, I will choose Staryu over Drilbur every time unless I really really need the Electric immunity.

    Offensively, I can't fault your argument. Sand Rush, plus an excellent STAB move, and Life Orb simply makes it superior to Staryu in that regard. Water STAB isn't bad either and Staryu outspeeds or ties all common unboosted Pokemon, but the ability to outspeed all +1 Pokemon is a huge boon to any Pokemon. Drilbur is simply superior to Staryu in this aspect. To reflect this, I have no problem calling Drilbur the best offensive spinner, but on the overall it does indeed have some competition.

    This thread isn't the Staryu vs. Drilbur debate thread, so I'll just move on to discuss its rank. You've convinced me to take a closer look and I'm definitely on the fence about Drilbur's tier position. Snover, to me, prevents Drilbur from reaching S-rank, since although Drilbur can function in hail, it "defines the meta" with its sand sweeper set. Snover destroys that effortlessly with a powerful Blizzard, so I can't say it belongs in S-rank when its best set is stopped just from another Pokemon existing.

    Edit: After using my old team on accident again, I've realized that there are two types of teams out there in the metagame today: teams with Snover, Bronzor, or Scarf Porygon, and teams without. The teams without those three are getting wrecked by Drilbur, and now I remember why I wanted this thing banned. I say it should be S-rank since, although Snover kinda stops it cold (haha), teams without it need really specialized checks to beat it, and if you lack one, you lose!
  6. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude "The Phone-Post King"
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    nominating Bronzor for A rank![​IMG]

    Bronzor is one of the greatest walls in Little Cup walling the ever present Drilbur and Snover as while having the best mixed defences in little cup. He is also the most reliable user of Stealth Rock in the tier and can use a myriad of support options as well (Hypnosis, Toxic, Light Screen, Reflect, Rain Dance, Sunny Day). The reason why Bronzor isn't S Rank worthy is because it is complete set up fodder to a lot of pokemon most notably Scraggy who can also carry Shed Skin to negate Toxic and is immune to Psychic. Strong Fire-types also have an easy time with Bronzor notably Larvesta, Houndour, Ponyta

    Also nominating Tirtouga for B rank.[​IMG]

    Tirtouga is one of the most fearsome sweepers in Little Cup once it has gotten a Shell Smash. with Sturdy Tirtouga is often able to Shell Smash quite easilyand sweep from there. His daul stabs (Water, Rock) are very good and are only resisted by Lileep due to Storm Drain, Ferroseed and Croagunk. With Aqua Jet Tirtouga can often bypass his opponents priority and hit them first with a stab, Splash Plate, and Shell Smash boosted attack. This is a great asset to have as moves like Mach Punch, Sucker Punch and Fake Out are the bane to all shell smashers. The flaws for Tirtouga are that it needs Rapid Spin support to preform to its fullest potential, keeping Sturdy intact and the fact that most of his conters (Ferroseed, Croagunk, Lileep) are quite common in the tier. However with Staryu/Natu and Misdreavus support Tirtouga can usaully get around these problems.

    Ferroseed for B rank[​IMG]

    Ferroseed is one of the best support pokemon in the tier. Sporting great mixed defenses and a total of 10 resists Ferroseed is more then capable of doing its job for the team. Ferroseeds vast array of support options are also great being able to use the two most important entry hazards (Stealth Rock, Spikes) while also having other handy support moves (Leech Seed, Thunderwave). However like any pokemon that isn't S rank it has some very obvious flaws. Despite its great defenses its 4x weakness to fire really hampers its preformance making things like Larvesta, Houndour and Ponyta a good stop to him. Also given how common fighting-types are in the tier Ferroseeds Fighting-type weakness really doesn't help it against the likes of Mienfoo, Scraggy, Timburr and Croagunk to name a few.

    Shelmet from C rank[​IMG]

    Shelmet is quite an underated pokemon but none the less is a good one. With gret defences (85, 65) backed with Evolite, Acid Armour and Shell Armour protecting him from Critical Hits Shelmet is a great user of the move Spikes and is also capable of beating most Scarggys 1 on 1 with Acid Armour boosting its defence. He also carries a Fighting-type resist, and is a great physical wall. Sadly that is all Shelmet can really do however it is very good at its job. Fire-types can really exploit Shelmets weakness to the type, and Drilbur is capable of beating it with Swords Dance on Rock Slide.


    Dwebble to A rank[​IMG]

    Dwebble is one of the best suicide leads available in Little Cup. Its Oran Berry+Sturdy combo help aid both its sets very well. The support set is able to set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes easier with Sturdy and Oran Berry keeping it healthy while the Shell Smash set can easily get a Shell Smash with Oran Berry+Sturdy. Unlike most support pokemon Dwebble is not helpless against Natu being able to use its stab Rock Blast to hurt Natu. He is a great asset for offensive teams being the Deoxys-D of little cup, Dwebble is almost always garunteed to get up 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock. Unfortunatly for Dwebble he is not without flaws. Staryu the most common Rapid Spin user in the tier can threaten out Drilbur with its powerful Hydro Pump while also being able to Rapid Spin the hazards away. However Staryu will get beaten by Shell Smash Dwebble so it still has to be careful.
  7. spuds4ever

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    Croagunk for A for sure. It's just a fantastic catch-all check that can pretty much be tailored to fit almost any team's needs. Top this with the fact that it has 2 good (and very under-rated sweeping options, sir uses bulk up, I use nasty plot) and it's easily solid A IMO.

    Honestly, I think Scraggy should be S class. It's the best set-up sweeper in the tier bar none (I think its even better than drillbur tbh, quite a lot due to the fact that it can set up safely on tonnes more stuff) and being able to set up on pretty much every wall in the whole tier, and can even be custom-made with its excellent move-pool to overcome several of its best counters (i.e, ZHB for croagunk is most common, but stone edge/head smash can be used for shelmet or vullaby) combined with the fact that mienfoo can't even reliably counter it all the time (pretty sure it's got a good chance to die to 2 HJKs) and also having a couple of viable other sets that can completely mess up your opponent's plans (LO and scarf) makes it solid S.

    Drillbur should be S, but I don't think it's fair to say it's the best pokemon in the tier seeing how each of its sets have very notable limits, it has severe 4mss, its reliant on sand support, and is still countered by a couple of common things in LC (snover and bronzor) and an actually very good set that's rising in popularity (Scarfporygon).
  8. Ray Jay

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    If Murkrow is S Rank, Drilbur should be as well. Murkrow wears itself out quicker due to BB recoil and Life Orb. Drilbur has honestly comparable power when we take into account it can run Swords Dance or just Life Orb. The main thing is that most of Drilbur's counters are more scared of Drilbur than Murkrow's counters are of Murkrow. For example, Shroomish, once thought to be a Drilbur counter, gets smashed by X-Scissor. If Bronzor can be weakened, it has to avoid switching in as well due to lacking reliable recovery. And that's just offensive Drilbur; there's also Utility Life Orb Drilbur with Rapid Spin or Eviolite with Stealth Rock or defensive with Protect Substitute that can be used in conjunction with Toxic Spikes. I agree with blarajan, Drilbur for S Rank. We nominated it as a suspect for last round, for pete's sake.
  9. JacobNinja

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    Shell Smash Dwebble should be S rank, because after one turn of setup there are no just no reliable counters.
    Also, revenge killer taillow deserves A or B, and scraggy A or maybe even S
  10. Gengan

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    Taillow is B at the most; I've used it and, while it does a good job, it's rather weak offensively, and it usually just takes one hit to kill it. Meanwhile, I still don't understand why Scraggy isn't S.
  11. Enix

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    Shell Smash Dwebble an S?

    Dwebble is more of B rank, A rank at most.
    Once sturdy is broken there are many pokemon that can deal with it.
  12. macle

    macle ribbit
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    Ok so

    Scraggy and Drillbur to S

    Lileep to A

    Hippo and Croagunk to B


    I want more opinions on Snover but I'm leaning towards A.
  13. comatthew6

    comatthew6 Uther's Noble [Ball]Sack
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    Timburr? Mienfoo? Also, we're not nominating individual sets, but Pokemon as a whole. Taillow is a C (Murkrow is just BETTER) and Dwebble is B because of its function as a very efficient hazard supporter.
  14. JacobNinja

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    Dwebble can singlehandedly win 7 turn games with its shell smash set, which deserves recognition, along with the fact that it can be both a sweeper and a hazard setter.
  15. Gengan

    Gengan

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    Dwebble is a B-rank. There are better Shell Smashers.
  16. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    Such as?
  17. Gengan

    Gengan

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    Everything else in LC with Shell Smash.
  18. macle

    macle ribbit
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    Dwebble will be a B ranked mon. End of discussion on it.
  19. Gengan

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    Thank you macle. Moving on:

    [​IMG] Aipom - C Rank

    Aipom... just sucks. I mean, sure it's got good attack and speed but it can't even beat Mienfoo 1v1, which is pretty sad. Offensive Misdreavus can kill it with HP Fight. Timburr has Bulk Up and Mach Punch. Just... stop using it.
  20. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Scraggy would be S if the entire metagame wasn't anti-Scraggy. There are two viable Scraggy: Eviolite / Life Orb. Eviolite is bulky and can set up on whatever, but can't muscle through Pokemon such as Mienfoo / Croagunk (without Zen Headbutt) / Timburr / Hippopotas, and is still revenged by Drilbur / Sandshrew / Scarf Misdreavus / Scarf Murkrow. Life Orb is strong as hell, but can't set up on whatever. Even though it CAN muscle through, and OHKOes, Mienfoo / Hippopotas / Timburr, it is so easily revenged it's not even funny.

    I'd say Scraggy for S, but it's just damn impossible to sweep with it, when it's either failing to OHKO at +1 or just revenged by a stupid mole.
  21. Danilo

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    LOL? It's not hard at all to sweep with Scraggy. This notion that all of Scraggy's checks will always be healthy enough to check it is absurd. All you need to do to beat Mienfoo is to Hi Jump Kick it once, switch out, come back in, DD on the Mienfoo switch, and OHKO with HJK since Mienfoo isn't at 100% even with Regenerator after a Hi Jump Kick. Croagunk checks Scraggy poorly throughout the game if you're intelligent enough to spam Hi Jump Kick until it's appropriate to sweep. With just Stealth Rock support and you're sweeping after two prior Hi Jump Kicks. Croagunk isn't going to be gaining any health or much health off Drain Punch cause every team in Little Cup needs a Fighting-type resist. Scraggy can certainly muscle through Timburr if that's your teams answer to Scraggy, and Hippo has to choose between take a +1 Hi Jump Kick and roaring or fighting with Earthquake. If Hippo finds itself with a bad matchup after using Roar then it won't be healthy enough to defeat Scraggy. What I'm listing may seem extensive but it's just so absurdly easy to put yourself into a position where Scraggy can threaten a sweep. Drilbur doesn't easily revenge kill Scraggy. Drilbur needs a Life Orb and sand to be up to beat Scraggy. Scarf Misdreavus is uncommon and HP Fighting does like ~50%. Scraggy sits comfortably at the S-Rank.

    Personally, I don't think that Drilbur is S-Rank. The sand sweeping sets(Life Orb and Eviolite) are the best weather abusers is the tier. There's no denying that. Drilbur also forces you to run two checks or one incredibly sturdy check to it if you want to even compete with it. But, I don't think that's enough to make Drilbur an S-rank mon. Every S-Rank Pokemon, with the exception of Scraggy since it's just so powerful, is versatile and all of their common sets are very good. Eviolite Mienfoo is arguably the best defensive pivot, Life Orb Mienfoo is the best wall breaker, Nasty Plot Misdreavus is a great sweeper, defensive Missy is a good Mienfoo check and can support its team with Heal Bell, Murkrow 2HKOs the entire tier without setup with its Life Orb set, and there are even more sets that these Pokemon can run and they run it well. Drilbur has two types of sets: the sand abusing sets and the Mold Breaker set. The sand abusing sets are without a doubt excellent. However, the Mold Breaker set is just okay. Sometimes you trick someone clueless and smack their Bronzor with an Earthquake but Mold Breaker Drilbur is just not bulky enough. It struggles to stay alive for very long, can usually only find team to setup Stealth Rock in the early game, and just doesn't have a large impact on the match. Drilbur is an excellent Pokemon but it's just doesn't compare to the other S-Rank Pokemon.
  22. Vileman

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    Well ill just mention clamperl as a possibly A/S rank, as it can oblirate everything after a single turn of setup using shell smash and the power that deepseatooth gives to it.
  23. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    I really dont get your point on Scraggy, sir.: if you have to go through all of that trouble to break down its counters / checks, it'd be A teir, not S as defined.

    Ignoring the fact that running Hi Jump Kick is "High risk" in and of itself due to the *huge* draw back on misses. I've won games simply becasue peoples scraggy would miss the HJK on the meinfoo switch. Nonetheless, (and especially now) Scraggy requires heeps of support in the form of hazards, bait for its counters etc. It can only do so much on its own, and while yes it does have *answers* to some of its counters, not all of them are "reliable" per say. (on a personal note I'd run ZHB over HJK everyday on Scraggy).

    Bringing up another point involving the guidelines for teiring, an important thing a lot of us are ignoring is that the "S" rank mon's can "perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well." Looking through that light I really can't see a reason Drilbur *isnt* S rank, for reasons Blarajan has pretty much covered extensively: Its an amazing sweeper in weather, works as an amazing anti sand out of it, and is *hands down* the best rapid spinner I have ever used. It can even pull off an "offensive support" (at least i like to think of it like that) with EQ, Rock Slide, SR and Rapid Spin with an eviolite and ATK/SPE ev's (for the record works amazingly with larvesta). I just think it has way too many viable sets that you'll commonly see on teams to consider it anything *less* than S.

    Jumping back to scraggy using that same logic, Scraggy has one set, and we all know it inside and out. DP/Crunch/DD/<coverage> and coverage will usually be HJK. The *fact* that we know it so well, and that we were able to come up with so many checks and counters that you'll see many times over in a single team prevents it, at least in my opinion, from sweeping "extremely well." It's an *awesome* sweeper, and I wont say otherwise, it's one of the few mons that had the metagame shift for it. I just think that because of that meta shift its just not as good a sweeper as some of your other options.

    I'd like to also take this time to nominate Larvesta for B rank. It's one of the few great fire types, hanging with ponyta and to a lesser extent houndour. It's only *major* flaw (and is obviously really big) is it's mandatory need for a spinner, and how if rocks are on the field it can definitely feel like a 5v6 game. Other then that though: it's got a powerful stab attack that has fairly decent neutral coverage throughout the tier to my knowledge, can break some of the major walls that things like Scraggy / Mienfoo / <physical sweeper here> hate, has the ability to cripple things with will-o-wisp, dodge counter/checks with Uturn and has access to decent recovery and coverage moves as well. Sounds like a solid 80 to me.

    As far as clamperl goes, I definetly feel likes a better papermon than practicemon. I personally have never used it, but when im agaisnt it, I usually just need to sac one or 2 mons to come out on top. Granted thats a bad thing, but I've never had too much trouble coming back. For the record I (think) have only played against Eviolite smash and a non-boosting Dragontooth.

    TL;DR
    Drilbur for S
    Scraggy for A
    Larvesta for B
    Nothing really helpful on the topic of Clamperl

    I apologize for spelling mistakes, I think I nabbed them all.
  24. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    macle needs to learn how to spell Drilbur right in the op.

    I mean I could fix it myself, but he'd never learn.
  25. macle

    macle ribbit
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    hey man at least i somehow spelled misdreavous and hippototas right


    also most likely moving scraggy down to A tonight. If anyone has objections speak now.
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