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Discussion in 'BW LC' started by macle, Oct 18, 2012.
Shellder and Munchlax for B-rank imo
Me. I've won more 7 turn battles w/ scraggy than I can count, it's just so good. DD/Dpunch/Crunch/Zenbutt moxie jolly 236/236 with 36specdef.
Also, I still say dwebble is A Tier material
I second this. Shellder being able to break through subs while revenge killing is a huge boon for teams that struggle with Missy / Murkrow (among others). And then Shell Smash.
Why Munchlax though? TBH never used it; havent seen enough of it to generate an opinion from an opposition's view.
Can we establish something here?
A Pokemon's viability should be determined by how well it does in the Competitive Metagame, not on the ladder. What do I mean by that? It's simple. Ladder success should not be a measure of viability because not everyone on the LC ladder is playing the same competitive game that is being discussed in this thread. We're seeing stuff like Charmander and Blitzle used because they're cute. No team that succeeds in today's competitive metagame is without a Scraggy check, and many have more than one. Saying you've won a lot of 7 turn battles w/ scraggy means nothing if the players you are playing against are using 6 normal types (they're not, but for the sake of argument, you didn't clarify what kind of teams Scraggy was 6-0ing). Conversely, if you have evidence that Scraggy is somehow a super anti metagame beast that with one turn of set up beats every team made by blarajan ever, then provide that evidence and we can consider the Pokemon for S Rank.
tl;dr: Ladder success is not a measure of viability. I could pubstomp noobs with Clamperl in 80% of my games on the ladder if I wanted to, but no competitive team lets him set up so easily. Same goes for Scraggy, and your Dwebble argument. Viability is measured by place in the competitive metagame.
Just some random things here...
Snover - A rank
With sand everywhere, Snover makes a very good check to Drilbur and Hippopotas as well as to all the water types out there. Blizzard deals sizeable damage to most pokemon in the tier and many pokemon have struggle switching into it.
Foongus - B or A rank
One of the best grass types out there, with regenerator it's very hard to kill. Walls all waters and most fighters. Spore pretty much the best move in the game, crippling some pokemon. It has Stun Spore which can cripple some of its main switch-ins, like insomnia krow. Clear Smog is also a great move.
Bronzor - B rank
Bronzor is a good check to lots of pokemon in the meta including Drilbur, Lileep, Hippopotas, some Murkrows etc. However it is too much of set up bait for many things to be considered for A.
Ferroseed - B rank
Excellent hazard setter and mixed wall. A great choice to counter water types but its fighting type weakness prevents it from being outstanding.
Magnemite - B rank
Very good pokemon at the moment, is great for removing steels, checking Snover, checking Murkrow. Volt Switch coming off 20 Sp. Atk is great for gaining momentum. It can even get past some of its counters with Magnet Rise.
Natu - B rank
Excellent pokemon to beat all fighters except Scraggy and is one of the best mons at preventing hazards.
Gastly - C rank
Too frail and pretty much outclassed by Missy in every way to be any higher, despite its immense Sp. Atk.
Lickitung - C rank
Good wall, but its fighting weakness is crippling and needs a tonne of support to work well.
Munchlax - C rank
Pretty much the same as Lickitung in that its fighting weakness prevents it getting any higher. Also lacks any reliable recovery to be great and ends up dying too quickly despite its bulk.
Snover and Scraggy to A
Dwebble to B
Aipom is a C. Its the definition of mediocre.
Larvesta is a B. Its good but not great.
Mangemite is a B. Great for countering steel types and isn't completely useless besides that.
Bronzor, ferro, and Munchlax falls somewhere in between B or C.
4x resistance to the most common priority
The best boosting move for physical sweepers in the game: Dragon Dance
Two amazing abilities in moxie or shed skin, so it can either function without hazard support with moxie, or laugh at status with shed skin.
50/70/70 defences, making it incredibly defensive with eviolite even without investment, allowing it to survive even super effective hits.
3 move perfect coverage in zenbutt, crunch, and drainpunch, along with semi-reliable healing and almost unresisted dual STABs.
Little to no reliance on team support, it can function as a lead and let you start the game 5-3.
Great defensive synergy with pokemon like chinchou, with the ability to form a strong balanced core.
And thus, every solid team in the metagame works hard to counter it. A tier.
And yet it still succeeds. An S rank-worthy pokemon.
JacobNinja, everyone in this entire thread except for you has put Scraggy in A-rank. Majority rules, you lose, stop bringing it up, and moving on.
Ducklett - Low C / High D Rank
Alright, so Ducklett has STAB Hurricane and can use Rain Dance to make it 100% accurate. Does that make up for the fact that Chinchou completely counters it and can easily kill it with Volt Switch, arguably Chinchou's most common move? No.
And now I'm gonna hog the Ghost-types. Soz xx
Golett - C Rank
Golurk has a godly typing that helps out hugely in a tier full of Fighting-types abusing Hi Jump Kick. In addition, it gets a handy immunity to Volt Switch and Thunder Wave, a resistance to U-turn, and can abuse STAB Earthquake. It also gets Drain Punch for some handy healing, and major defense boost with Eviolite. Sadly, it lacks the one thing it really needs: Shadow Punch, the only good Physical Ghost-type move in existence. This means that Misdreavus, the most common Ghost-type, can switch in without fear and do whatever it needs to for one turn. Not only that, Golurk is really slow, and it can't take very many supereffective hits before dying. Not very befitting for something so adorable (Litwick is cuter).
Litwick - C Rank
Litwick is, imo, the most adorable Pokemon in existence. Like, look at it. But, sadly, it's not very good. It's got a usable Sp. Attack stat, but is so slow that it doesn't work well, and even with an Eviolite it can't take very many hits. Maybe if Shadow Tag got released it'd be a good trapper, but right now it just has to sit there and look precious.
Frillish - C Rank
Not only is the male version of Frillish ugly as hell (the female version isn't much better), it doesn't really do much. It might be able to take some hits and it seems to fit on a sand team, but Lileep does it so much better. Seriously, just use Lileep.
Wingull has everything ducklett has, and rain dish for passive rain recover. TBH wingull should be low b-high c
Gengan must've ignored my entire post if he thinks jacob is the only one that thinks Scraggy is S-Rank...
Scraggy is not as versatile as Misdreavus and it doesn't always sweep as hard Life Orb Krow. But, Scraggy finds way more opportunities to sweep than LO Krow and its much better at its job than Misdreavus is at any of its jobs.
Factually false. If you opt for intelligent play as opposed to running lures and/or Spikes then Scraggy beats its checks. Hi Jump Kick Mienfoo once, switch out, and next time you bring Scraggy in you can DD on the Mienfoo switch and OHKO with HJK. Croagunk is harder to take down but spamming Hi Jump Kick / Drain Punch early game puts it at the point where Scraggy is unstoppable late game.
Just because something can't sweep immediately doesn't mean its not S-Rank. For example, LO Krow is arguably Murkrow's best set and can sweep any team that's relatively weakened in the mid or late game. However, LO Krow can't switch into any move, struggles with Stealth Rock, and has trouble staying alive for a long time. Scraggy requires an extra turn or two to set up(which is not going through a ton of trouble). Scraggy finds plenty of opportunities to switch in, isn't hampered by Stealth Rock or status, and can't take a hit or two if it needs to.
Wingull is incredibly fragile, and lacks FeatherDance and Big Pecks, both of which make Ducklett one of the best Scraggy counters. Wingull is a D-Rank Pokemon, as although it hits very hard in Rain, it has absolutely no survivability and Rain is difficult to keep up in this metagame. Ducklett, on the other hand, should probably be C-Rank, as it completely wrecks Scraggy (bar the rare Head Smash or ThunderPunch) and is a decent utility check to most Fighting-types.
Other stuff: Litwick should be D-Rank: since Shadow Tag is not released, Litwick is absolutely horrid at doing anything. Misdreavus/Frillish/Drifloon/even Gastly do everything it can do better. Frillish is B-Rank- its defensive capabilities are amazing, and although it is arguably inferior to Misdreavus, in hazard-based balance teams Misdreavus + Frillish is practically required. Toxic is the only reliable way of crippling it beyond repair, and Heal Bell can remedy that too.
It legit took me like five minutes to realize JacobNinja was referring to Sucker Punch. Also, we all have our opinions, so please no harassing JacobNinja's for his. We can all agree or disagree, that's why we're discussing this.
these two kind of scream bs to me. while scraggy literally needs very little team support like you said, it cant just come out beginning game and kill three pokemon unless the opponents team just flat out sucks (this isnt murkrow lol). every team has at least one or 2 scraggy counters/check so either before or after you kill something instantly, scraggy will either have to switch out or die. not many people will just let you set up a dd first turn cause almost every effing team that has a mienfoo leads with a mienfoo, and we all know what everyone says about how common mienfoo is.
the second point just seems like useless fluff cause honestly no one uses defensive scraggy unles you are named dracoyoshi or me while i was trying it with him. its bad and really just not worth using and just makes your scraggy a subpar pokemon.
i want to say i call houndour and i will post but honestly i dont think i will remember that tonight so lol...
HOUNDOUR FOR B
To be honest, I'm really torn when it comes to Scraggy. Both Delver and Sir make very good points. When compared to other physical set up sweepers (Dwebble, Tirtouga, Shellder, Axew etc...) it needs less support that every single one. It can pretty much fit on any team and attempt a sweep. As Sir said, if played intelligently it finds getting past its counters quite easy. As Jacob Ninja pointed out, 4x resisting Sucker Punch is a great advantage over other sweepers such as Drilbur who will really fear Murkrow's Sucker Punch.
I'm not sure if the metagame has shifted enough to make Scraggy A rank. Pretty much every team carries Mienfoo but that isn't exactly hard to get past (read Sir's posts). The only real thing it has to fear imo, are faster revenge killers like ScarfKrow which isn't that common.
Looking at Delver's arguments, I think he's right in the fact that Scraggy's predictability lets it down. We all know what it's trying to do. (Although I have been running the moxie-scarf set to some success recently). But then again, isn't Mienfoo predictable? It's almost always running a bulky pivot set with the rare baton pass set and the even more rare scarf.
I'm not saying that Scraggy is either A or S, I just feel that there should be more thought about it as Sir has made a very good case on it being S. All I know is that it is hands down the best physical sweeper in the meta (better than Drilbur imo)*, but that's about all it can do.
*I'm not saying Scraggy is a better pokemon than Drilbur as Drilbur fills more roles such as Wall-Breaker/Rapid Spinner/Revenge Killer. I just feel that Scraggy can set up and sweep better than it.
EDIT: Sorry this is really rambly and I'm not sure I managed to get my thoughts coherently. Tell me if you need clarification.
Just to defend my arugment; yes Mienfoo is predictable but what sets it apart from scraggy is that it *has* a viable baton pass set, a viable scarf set, a viable LO set, etc. It's mienfoo's ability to "perform many jobs well" *in addition* to its ability to perform its most common role as a defensive pivot near flawlessly that makes it S rank. Scraggy just doesnt have as many viable sets.
And its been said and said again; any meta-viable team will have multiple scraggy checks. A good player won't let some one set up the scraggy, and even if they do, they'll have an answer for it. The difference between this and say something like Drilbur, like you said, though mostly seen as a sweeper, has other viable sets, blah blah blah
I'll be honest: I really don't think any mon in the LC metagame can do *one* roll well enough to make it considered S rank, and apparently so does everyone else by virtue of the mons that have made it in. LC is a very "balanced" metagame, in reference to team compositions. Teams like their mons to be very flexible to answer the myriad of threats without losing their own offensive pressure. Because of this, I really just can't think of any mon (especially sweepers) that can justify them selves as "S" because they're "good at sweeping" or "good at walling." To be frank, I still wouldnt concider scraggy S rank if the Metagame wasnt warped around it. by virtue of it being essentially *ONLY* a sweeper it will *require* team support, and people will see it in the team preview and think "welp gotta keep <insert scraggy check here> alive to deal with that."
Now just as a preempt (cause i thoguht of this while writign this out) you might be thinking "well almost all murkrow sets require support, and murkrow is an S rank mon, there for your argument is flawed." Andddd that's just wrong. When you see a murkrow in Team Preview can you ever tell me what it's running? Ever? It's that unpredictability and ability to rip through unprepared teams that makes Murkrow S rank. Similarly, Misdreavus's and mienfoo's mix of great offensive and defensive presense as well as (a much smaller amount) of unpredicatability that make them S rank.
Another prempt: "Drilbur made it to S and he's only a really good sweeper in sand." Drilbur gets S rank because in sand, it is hands down the best sweeper in the teir, that's unarguable. However, even without that sand up, it still provides the team with something. LO sweepers often opt for RS over SD because you really dont need the SD boost; giving you a MASSIVE offensive/supportive threat should you absolutley need it, while eviolite variants are fairly bulky in their own right. I could go on but most of the other set's im aware of that are viable i mentioned in my previous post and I dont feel like being repetative.
--Scraggy gets A (at least my reasoning) because it lacks the same overall contribution to a team than another say Murkrow, or Misdreavus, or Drilbur.
--It's arguable that because it's such a predictable mon you will have to dedicate 1-2 slots of your team to take out its multiple checks and counters that you'll be playing against.
--This doesnt make it bad, it just makes it a less flexible mon than the S ranks.
--I'm terribly biased against "one trick mons" for S teir
--I promise I'll eventually make a Post that doesnt require a TL:DR
Also: Iunno if its been nominated but sandshrew for B rank - on the grounds of Double Sand Rush
I would also argrue that Scraggy should be S-Tier. It really is ridiculously easy to set up with, and with Shed Skin / Drain Punch keeping it free of status and healthy, once it has set up even bulkier mons that can survive a hit from it have a very hard time taking it out. The ONLY Scraggy checks that can reliably take it out are Mienfoo and Scarf Murkrow; Croagunk flat out loses if Scraggy runs ZHB, and most do these days. Both Foo and Krow will lose if Scraggy gets up 2 DD's, so a switch to them is also very predictable and can be punished by hitting hard on as they come in. This isn't even taking into account team support! If Missy gets a burn off on Mienfoo running Drain Punch, or if Mienfoo just takes some significant damage that Regenerator can't patch up, Scraggy wins. If ScarfKrow has to switch into rocks each time it comes in on Scraggy, it can only come in like once or twice if you hit it with a Drain Punch on the switch. Those examples aren't even going out of your way to support Scraggy. Mienfoo that stay in on Missy to go for Knock Off get burned. Scraggy is hardly the only thing Mienfoo checks, so prior damage isn't outside the realm of possibility, and SR supports the whole team, not just Scraggy.
Scraggy is arguably the best Pokemon in the metagame at doing what it does. With its good resistances and defenses, it's hardly risky to run Scraggy, while the reward is an easy to accomplish sweep. You don't need any team support to help out Scraggy, although it benefits from support that aids the whole team (duh). If Drilbur deserves to be S-Tier, Scraggy sure as hell does too.
EDIT: In response to Delver, in addition to Scraggy's Eviolite DD set it can run an LO set and a Scarf set that are both viable. Also any meta-viable team will have multiple checks to ANY Pokemon that can be considered "S-Tier," and in fact it just shows how good Scraggy is that even when the opponent runs multiple checks you can still set up a sweep with intelligent play. Keeping a check to Scraggy at high health is much more easily said than done, because Scraggy's two big checks are used for a variety of other roles on a team, as are it's shakier checks. It's checks happen to be some of the bigger threats in the metagame, so not having something that can take them out is just poor teambuilding.
Personally I've started running psychic on my missy just to nail mienfoo, and I get clean 2hkos w/o hazards assuming 1 regenerator hit.
In response to Nano: Im pretty sure it's LO set is the same thing as its eviolite set only with less survivability and an increase in weakness to priority for a negligible damage boost since you should be OHKOing with 1 DD boost if scraggy is being played correctly.
I know Corkscrew mentioned the CS/moxie set, and tbh I've never seen it nor used it nor even heard of it (which is probably bad since a little "smogon searching" reveals it to be right under the DD set on scraggy's page). My immediate reaction to it is "an even later game sweeper" that uses a CS to begin a sweep without a turn setting up.
I've said my part on the scraggy subject and don't really intend to explain further. I will not deny that Scraggy is one of the best sweepers in the teir, but simultaneously the current metagame wants more than just "good sweepers," and I think thats what the S teir should be: pokemon with multiple, abusive sets or more obscure checks and counters (like how mixkrow decimates SubRoost's counters etc).
I'd also like to move the forum discussion away from Scraggy. I'm more than willing to discuss this further in the mIRC, but i definitely feel like we should pull away from scraggy (at least until the other viable mons get ranks) and give the other LCer's the time of day in the forum.
While I don't really like Scraggy as a whole because of the many things everyone has said about it being easily checked, I agree with Nanoswine that it should be S-Rank just because of the very same deffinition he has provided. It is an extremely well balanced and effective set-up sweeper and the fact it has indeed forced teams to have one or two checks to it is the proof we need. Scraggy to S rank.
Now, I think there have been more pokes on discussion than just Scraggy:
Agreed, both can be a pain but only if you have enough support for them. I think Shellder is a little more viable than Munchlax as it can set up on Murkrow while Munchlax is threatened by every fighting-type in the tier.
Foongus is B, not A. I have had more success with Bulbasaur than Foongus as Bulba has more SpA to damage Drilbur, higher Def and higher SpD. I think Foongus is just good on paper but it's not game changing even if its typing is good over Ferroseed and Lileep.
Bronzor is C. It can't do anything in the battle if it has been taunted, really. I think it has very good typing but all you have to do is slowly wear it down as it can't 2HKO anything. Vullaby and Murkrow can have a happy picnic on its face not to mention that every set-up sweeper laughs on its face, seeing that all of the threats on the upper ranks have at least one viable set-up move, I can't understand why Bronzor could be B.
Magnemite is B, possibly A. It's just a very good mon with the exact amount of support options to be annoying as hell. Sure, it's hampered by its Fighting weakness but at least it can Volt-switch to an appropriatte teammate to patch up that.
Lickitung and Munchie are B; a weakness to Scraggy, Mienfoo and Croagunk is a really let down but its good qualities are more than its weakness. Both have SpD and Def to survive mixed 'Crow assaults. None of them have reliable recovery but they can wall special attackers in A and S ranks like Missy, Snover, Lileep, Magnemite and beyond. They both can boost their Defense and power up its offense; and can shuffle the team to prevent setting up on them... I can understand the weakness may be glaring but a Pokemon is not ONE weakness. Then again, for that very reason, Lileep could be C and Bronzor could be A. The weakness/resistance to fighting types shouldn't be the reason a pokemon can't go in higher tiers.
Aipom, YES, it's terible now that Team Preview disposed of the Lead concept. In the same note: Meowth to C. Everything else I have covered before.
Ducklett... I can't really tell. Never seen one, never used one.
All of the ghost are now outclassed offensively by Missy; Golett is slow and can't use a decent Ghost-type move; Litwick is outclassed by Missy as a Ghost and Houndour as an offensive Fire-type.
But Frillish is better as a purely Defensive Ghost. I would say B; because it can fit in teams that can't afford using Lileep (like wanting to have Ferroseed or having too much Fighting weaknesses). I can really tell that Frillish is better than just C.
YES, Houndour for B as it really is the best mixed attacker bar MixKrow. And its typing is really good for attaking. Fighting weakness? Yes, but Houndour is more of a pokemon to severly cripple the opponent team before a bigger sweeper can unleash its power. It can trap Missy and it doesn't fear a Burn; it can be used on Sand to counter Snover and that's saying something big if Snover is A.
Yay we win. But on the topic of ducklett, I have found wingull to be superior, and think wingull should be high c and ducklett low c. Doesn't the concept of high and low within tiers completely undermine the tiering system?
People have already explained why Wingull is the objectively inferior Pokemon. The only way you could validate Wingull being higher than Ducklett would be via it being an incredible offensive Pokemon (which it's honestly not), which still merits no comparison to Ducklett, who is mostly defensive. Other than that, everyone's already explained why Ducklett > Wingull. Ducklett to C, and Wingull to D.
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Crunch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Ducklett: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.69%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO, garunteed after Rocks
In what way does a pokemon that gets ohko'd after rocks or 2hkoed w/o rocks, not to mention outsped by +1 scraggy if unscarfed, constitute a counter? Ducklett/Wingull are only useful for special rain sweepers, and wingull's extra point in spa along with ability to hit 19 speed on a positive nature clearly show it is better at that role.
Also, it should be noted that smogon's bulky ducklett is still 2hkoed by +1 jolly or adamant scraggy's crunch.
Seeing as Ducklett is just as insufficient as wingull is at switching into scraggy, and wingull has higher spa and speed, isn't wingull better?
I can't really judge Bulbusaur as I've never used it, but I still feel Foongus has the potential to be A. Yes, it's stats are low but it has one of the best abilities in the tier and along with immunity to toxic it's incredibly difficult to get worn down. It's more of a bulky pivot than a wall so the bad defenses don't matter too much imo. It's of the best Mienfoo checks in the tier as it can repeatedly switch in without getting worn down. It has just the right movepool for doing it's job; Spore and Stun Spore to cripple stuff, Clear Smog to prevent set-up and Giga Drain as a decent enough STAB. In general it's just a great team-supporter that, if played correctly, pretty much never dies thanks to regenerator.
As for Bronzor, I know it's a sitting duck in most cases but the sheer amount of things it checks make up for it. Again, if played correctly throughout the match it is quite difficult to wear down because it takes very little from most attacks that are thrown at it. I do understand its flaws, but the fact it counters the most feared pokemon in the metagame along with checking loads of other stuff makes it B for me.
I kind of agree with you for the most part on Magnemite but I still feel B is more suitable than A. It's a very useful pokemon but when playing against it I never really think of it as a massive threat and it's not hard to wear down just by playing around it. It can be annoying and it is very good. Just not A material for me.
As for Lickitung and Munchlax, I feel that I didn't explain myself very well. The fighting weakness isn't the only crippling thing about them, as you said Lileep would be C otherwise. The thing you have to remember is that Lileep has reliable recovery and is arguably a better special wall than both of them.
iirc, Lickitung takes around 40% from Hydro Pump from Chinchou and Staryu meaning it can be 2HKO'd with prior damage or hazards. This means you need spin support to get it in safely and even then it's unreliable. It also needs hazard support to make Dragon Tail at all effective. You could argue that Lickitung is the best wish passer in LC, which I think it is, but it's a role that isn't that useful in the LC tier.
In my opinion that fits Lickitung perfectly. Notable niche, but requires a crapload of support.
I can't comment on Munchlax as much as I haven't used it a lot, but I just feel that it falls under the same boat as Lickitung. I'm not gonna categorically say B or C though, as I'd like to hear some other opinions on it.
On another note, I think we should stop arguing about whether Wingull or Ducklett is better. People that use Ducklett are using it for a bulky-ish flying type, whilst Wingull is used as more of a fast Special Attacker. I don't think either of them are great and would probably put them both in C or D. But arguing which one is better doesn't seem that productive.