One nitpick. I would use CC. If something runs Protect, you're royally fucked, and if you miss, you're royally fucked. xD Personally, I wouldn't take the 50% losing health chance.
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Pokémon Lucario
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Protect is easily predictable. I'm probably going to get a free boost or just use flash cannon/dark pulse on something dumb enough to use protect against a setup sweeper.
So, Mega Lucario is awesome. Reading through the thread, that much is certain. Is there anything that can stop it?
Talonflame keeps coming up, but considering that everybody and their mother is running it, that doesn't seem like it will last. Aegislash comes up as well, but it doesn't actually have the raw counter power due to Crunch's ubiquity as a coverage move. Are those the only two, or are there others as well?
Talonflame keeps coming up, but considering that everybody and their mother is running it, that doesn't seem like it will last. Aegislash comes up as well, but it doesn't actually have the raw counter power due to Crunch's ubiquity as a coverage move. Are those the only two, or are there others as well?
Talonflame is def not a counter to lucario. After rocks DMG lucario can OHKO if adamant with ESpeed and has a chance to OHKO as jolly.
Crunch, ESpeed and BP are his best coverage moves. Ice punch can be useful I suppose but most things hit by ice punch are often ohko'd by CC so it becomes a waste of a slot nowadays. Crunch had a niche in that it beats regular gengar and some other ghosts. Jelli if defensive can probably take one, so hazard DMG is required. But if lucario is at+2 then it has no chance. Then again what does when lucario is at + 2? :p But overall Crunch ESpeed CC And SD are his best options.
Crunch, ESpeed and BP are his best coverage moves. Ice punch can be useful I suppose but most things hit by ice punch are often ohko'd by CC so it becomes a waste of a slot nowadays. Crunch had a niche in that it beats regular gengar and some other ghosts. Jelli if defensive can probably take one, so hazard DMG is required. But if lucario is at+2 then it has no chance. Then again what does when lucario is at + 2? :p But overall Crunch ESpeed CC And SD are his best options.
Gyarados was a counter to SD Lucario until its blasted Mega evolution added 18 base defense. Now it needs Life Orb to OHKO Lucario, who can OHKO back with rocks.
Even Gliscor without any atk investment can't OHKO Mega Lucario when it could before. I tell ya, that 88 base defense has been a huge troll. Moreso since its base special defense remained at 70.
Even Gliscor without any atk investment can't OHKO Mega Lucario when it could before. I tell ya, that 88 base defense has been a huge troll. Moreso since its base special defense remained at 70.
I think Volcarona is the hardest Lucario counter currently in OU, TalonFlame probably being the second. Volcarona sets up on all Lucario sets with impunity. Apart from Volcarona there are a ton of pokemon that can survive a Lucario attack and then OHK it, but only if it is a certain set. What makes Lucario quite good is the fact that you can never know if your Hippowdown or Skarmory or Chansey or whoever is going to wall it or get OHK'd because you can't tell what set he's running until its too late.
And for the record saying that something isn't a check to Lucario because SR is down is just silly. That's like saying Skarmory doesn't check Scizor because you will hit it with FireBlast first earlier in the match. There are going to be many matches where that happens, but it doesn't mean you don't treat Skarmory like it checks Scizor. You treat TalonFlame like it checks Lucario and thus you also make the conscious effort to try and get rocks down asap whenever you see your opponent has Talonflame on their team.
And for the record saying that something isn't a check to Lucario because SR is down is just silly. That's like saying Skarmory doesn't check Scizor because you will hit it with FireBlast first earlier in the match. There are going to be many matches where that happens, but it doesn't mean you don't treat Skarmory like it checks Scizor. You treat TalonFlame like it checks Lucario and thus you also make the conscious effort to try and get rocks down asap whenever you see your opponent has Talonflame on their team.
Huh? +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 320-377 (86.25 - 101.61%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Obviously if you are assuming he already has the Swords Dance then you assume Volcarona doesn't try to setup and instead just Flamethrowers back that turn, and even then you're saying that 87.5% of the time Volcarona lives and kills Lucario. The standard Lucario is actually Jolly which (even with a free Swords Dance) can never OHK.
Even if you don't believe my experiences you can simply check Lucario's top Checks & Counters in the October stats (obviously taken with a large grain of salt). Both TalonFlame and Volcarona 'beat' Lucario more often than not in regular OU and Pokebank OU.
Except it isn't :\. I'm really not trying to be argumentative or flood the thread, I just feel this is really flawed information. Information that is being perpetuated because lots of new players have this exaggerated notion that Lucario is destroying everything.
The standard Bulky Volcarona never dies to Adamant LO +2 ES and always OHK's with Flamethrower. Volcarona doesn't risk dying on the switch in to a resisted move either, that was against a +2 CloseCombat. It's not reasonable to assume Lucario got a dance off but you didn't switch in your best check to him or attack him. He either CloseCombated on the switch in, then CloseCombats again before you Flamethrower. Or alternatively he Swords Danced on the switch in, then CloseCombats before you Flamethrower. In both scenarios you would kill him 87.5% of the time if he is Adamant, which less than 20% of people run. The vast majority run speed boosting natures which mean Volcarona never dies in either scenario, against any Lucario build.
Because of this information the good players swap out everytime - even the minority who run Adamant don't want to bank on a 12.5% chance as the odds clearly aren't in your favor. Again this is proven quite clearly in the October stats. The numbers show that Volcarona is considered one of the top 10 checks & counters to Lucario, and the point I was trying to make is that it is my personal favourite because it beats ALL Lucario sets reliably (as opposed to say Gliscor who is listed as an even better check, but Gliscor dies if the Lucario is an Ice Punch Variant).
Calcs show that only bulky Volcaronas have a chance against Jolly MegaLuke. Timid Volcarona can outspeed Adamant Luke, but +2 ESpeed OHKOes nearly all the time; inversely, bulky Volc can check Jolly Lukes but has a 87.5% chance of getting OHKOed by Adamant CC after Spikes. You said Volc was one of the top 10 checks to Luke, but that was before Luke had greater Attack, Adaptability and more importantly became faster than Volc. If Volcarona had taken any damage at that point, it's a clean kill. The only way to keep Volcarona healthy is to save it for a sweep late-game and keep hazards off the field, but after taking that much damage from MegaLuke a sweep would no longer be possible, since you cannot boost alongside Luke lest priority pick you off. Bulky Volc may be a check, but it's a really shaky one, while offensive Volcs aren't considered checks anymore.
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My calcs and experiences are against MegaLuke with Adaptability and etc. Other than that I agree with what you're saying overall and I've never claimed that Volcarona doesn't have it's own problems (it's considerably worse on Pokebank OU because Heatran is popular). It's just that ChaosToTheMax and many others ask what are the best checks and counters to Lucario and some people are saying things that are quite misleading.
I have elaborated on how a Lucario check I have been using from 1900-2200 has been working well for me, and will not go into this any further as I have done my best to explain why it works. The October stats are just bonus evidence which demonstrate that when you take into account the spikes and the defogs and everything else that comes with the game, Volcarona ends up being one of the top10 things to scare Luke off or take an attack then kill it.
I have elaborated on how a Lucario check I have been using from 1900-2200 has been working well for me, and will not go into this any further as I have done my best to explain why it works. The October stats are just bonus evidence which demonstrate that when you take into account the spikes and the defogs and everything else that comes with the game, Volcarona ends up being one of the top10 things to scare Luke off or take an attack then kill it.
I took a look at the usage stats, and I'm not so sure they're completely reliable anymore. Volcarona above Dragonite as a check? Venusaur nowhere to be seen? What the hell is Chandelure even doing showing up in this section when it doesn't even see that much regular play, much less as a check to Luke (it needs Scarf, which less than 50% do)?
Mega-Venusaur and bulky Gyarados are much better checks or outright counters to Mega-Luke than bulky Volcarona, and they're constant pains in my ass all the time. They resists Fighting moves, aren't weak to most anything else Luke carries, and most notably have good physical bulk. Blaze Kick or Ice Punch? Nope, Thick Fat. The only way Mega-Luke is getting past Mega-Venusaur is with Zen Headbutt / Psychic for the respective sets (Thunderpunch / Stone Edge for Gyara), but it is really not worth using them as they expose themselves to more threats. Mega-Venusaur can then retaliate with Sleep Powder, Gyara can use Thunder Wave, and both threaten with Earthquake. Stopping both physical and special MegaLuke is a feat very few Pokemon boast.
Mega-Heracross can take +2 Close Combat (Mega-Hera needs to evolve though, and may not like even unboosted CC to the face unevolved), and can KO with Fighting STAB; Spiritomb can tank physical Luke's attacks and burn Luke or take advantage of Steel's Dark neutrality for a stronger Foul Play / unresisted Shadow Ball; Scarf Landorus-T is a pretty strong check to MegaLuke as +1 Extremespeed is the best thing Luke can go for before getting KOed by EQ. All can take heavy damage from Special Luke though.
Luke is easier to stop if you manage to scout its coverage moves. If Lucario lacks Bullet Punch, Aerodactyl and Blaziken can revenge it (without even going Mega), as can Mega-Gengar (needs to have evolved already). Lukes lacking ESpeed can be revenged by Talonflame and faster Steel-resists, like Greninja, Mega-Manectric and Jolteon. Lukes lacking Ice Punch are stopped by many bulky Flying-types (especially Gliscor and more defensive Landorus-T), and Lukes lacking Crunch can be stopped by Aegislash, Slowbro and woot Chandelure.
I know the special set has different responses, but it doesn't have as much coverage and power as the physical set. However, the less specially bulky switch-ins, such as Slowbro and Gliscor, must be more cautious against Luke as a whole.
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I'm not a new player and I can tell you from experience that Volcarona is a terrible check to Lucario for a lot of reasons, namely Stealth Rock and weak physical Defense, not to mention that Volcarona has usually better things to do than countering or checking Lucario. And don't worry, people who're good at playing this game know that Lucario isn't destroying anything lol.
1) bulky Volcarona is not standard. Standard is either modest or timid with max SpA and Spe;
2) Even max HP Volcarona takes 84,22% - 98,93% from an adamat +2 ES. Not a reliable check at all, since all the Lucario player needs is a single layer of spikes on the field to ensure the OHKO.
Usage stats, at this stage of the metagame (hint: right now we can't correctly talk about an OU metgame) are completely irrelevant, so please don't bring them up when trying to prove your point. It's clear that there are much better checks for Lucario, as others in this thread have already pointed out.
Lucario@Lucarionite
Trait:Adaptability
Nature:Modest/Timid
EVS: 252 Spa/ 252 Spe/ 4 Def
-Aura Sphere
-Nasty Plot
-Dark Pulse/Flash Cannon
-Dragon Pulse/Vaccum Wave/ Psychic
Special Luke has always been very surprising when you face it. It also wallbreaks.
Trait:Adaptability
Nature:Modest/Timid
EVS: 252 Spa/ 252 Spe/ 4 Def
-Aura Sphere
-Nasty Plot
-Dark Pulse/Flash Cannon
-Dragon Pulse/Vaccum Wave/ Psychic
Special Luke has always been very surprising when you face it. It also wallbreaks.
Try running High Jump Kick instead of Aura Sphere, Mega Luke has enough attack even without investment to destroy things like Goodra and Tyranitar, so special walls can't stop it.
I've been having very good luck with it. Definitely run Flash Cannon, though, no matter what.
Its a Specially based set, not a physical for the surprise factor and it also works well. EDIT: Close Combat could be more beneficial for that matter, but that would be better for a stronger physical attacker with investment and Life orb or a Band.
High Jump Kick makes up for the 0 EV investment, and makes it harder to revenge. Your choice though. But either one hits harder than Aura Sphere.
one issue we have to deal with for counters is that we should always assume stealth rocks are in play so that takes talon flame and volcarona out of the mix then we deal with possible sets and aegislash only really checks physical variants with right prediction so that isn't a counter however a bulky dragonite with multi scal intact does provide an interesting check if it has weakness policy it can first set up swords dance then be hit with ice punch then live an extreme speed then proceed to sweep the rest of the team.(ps it barely lives)
Well assuming rock are up using smogon damage
+2 252 Jolly Reversal@1HP Dragonite MS take 63%-75% if intact but if take SR damage 127%-150%
Priority is also everywhere, and not always priority you'll be able to OHKO before it can kill you. Fighting at 1 HP isn't that easy.
I knew I was going to be dinged for that but for that situation I meant for counters you should always assume rocks however for checks I don't assume that always there will be rocks because checks are situational sometimes however for counters they should beat the pokemon no matter the situation (at least for hard counters). So yea you are right but just clarifying myself
So yeah..I've been really loving the concept of a mixed sweeper lucario since the past few pages, and it's gotten me to developing this set:
Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Sp. Atk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon
- Swords Dance
The combination of Close Combat, and Bullet Punch alone are monstrous, but that 3rd coverage move always bothered me in the physical set. Crunch, while an amazing option, didn't really feel like it solved the Aegislash situation since you would still end up having to play to prediction. In the same case, Jellicent isn't currently around, and most things Ice punch would hit is solved between the above physical combination at +2(Gliscor really doesn't have it easy as he needs defensive investments to possibly survive two hits when rocks are on the field, but needs attack investments just to have a chance to OHKO Lucario; on the other hand, Lucario gets a 50% chance to OHKO at +2 with SR when Gliscor carries zero defensive investments). So, I've opted to improve against at least one of the ghost match-up's.
By running Shadow ball, Lucario can avoid all of Aegislash's shenanigans, just as the NP set does, by chucking balls of ghastly power threatening to OHKO it with SR when out of it's defensive stance. Jellicent, while not as severely destroyed with the use of crunch, still takes 36.22 - 43.17% with it's Utility Set. The other plus behind the use of Shadow Ball is that it gives lucario perfect coverage + a powerful priority, making it even stronger prior to it reaching a Swords Dance. Flash Cannon gets an honorable slash in this set. Flash Cannon, even without investments, packs a MEAN punch. Doing 54.59 - 64.56% to Offensive Pivot Lando-T which is more then even a +2 CC(doing 50.65 - 59.84% to that same set). Defensive Gliscor is also just as easily decimated by it's sheer power, taking 55.68 - 65.9% from just one Flash Cannon. The real icing on the cake with Flash Cannon is that most mon's that are normally 2HKO'd by +2 CC are still 2HKO'd by Flash Cannon with this set allowing it to have amazing power fresh out of the mega evolve.
Now granted, the price for using Flash Cannon is that most of your Checks, and Counters become even more apparent, but the amount of damage it is capable of pumping out is definitely not to be ignored. IMO, despite not playing heavily into the mixed department, it does give the same power as the normal sweeper set while adding a surprise special attack to handle specific threats and gaining perfect neutral coverage. Any improvements to it would be greatly appreciated.
Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Sp. Atk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon
- Swords Dance
The combination of Close Combat, and Bullet Punch alone are monstrous, but that 3rd coverage move always bothered me in the physical set. Crunch, while an amazing option, didn't really feel like it solved the Aegislash situation since you would still end up having to play to prediction. In the same case, Jellicent isn't currently around, and most things Ice punch would hit is solved between the above physical combination at +2(Gliscor really doesn't have it easy as he needs defensive investments to possibly survive two hits when rocks are on the field, but needs attack investments just to have a chance to OHKO Lucario; on the other hand, Lucario gets a 50% chance to OHKO at +2 with SR when Gliscor carries zero defensive investments). So, I've opted to improve against at least one of the ghost match-up's.
By running Shadow ball, Lucario can avoid all of Aegislash's shenanigans, just as the NP set does, by chucking balls of ghastly power threatening to OHKO it with SR when out of it's defensive stance. Jellicent, while not as severely destroyed with the use of crunch, still takes 36.22 - 43.17% with it's Utility Set. The other plus behind the use of Shadow Ball is that it gives lucario perfect coverage + a powerful priority, making it even stronger prior to it reaching a Swords Dance. Flash Cannon gets an honorable slash in this set. Flash Cannon, even without investments, packs a MEAN punch. Doing 54.59 - 64.56% to Offensive Pivot Lando-T which is more then even a +2 CC(doing 50.65 - 59.84% to that same set). Defensive Gliscor is also just as easily decimated by it's sheer power, taking 55.68 - 65.9% from just one Flash Cannon. The real icing on the cake with Flash Cannon is that most mon's that are normally 2HKO'd by +2 CC are still 2HKO'd by Flash Cannon with this set allowing it to have amazing power fresh out of the mega evolve.
Now granted, the price for using Flash Cannon is that most of your Checks, and Counters become even more apparent, but the amount of damage it is capable of pumping out is definitely not to be ignored. IMO, despite not playing heavily into the mixed department, it does give the same power as the normal sweeper set while adding a surprise special attack to handle specific threats and gaining perfect neutral coverage. Any improvements to it would be greatly appreciated.
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