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Magnezone (Analytic) [QC please read SDS' latest post]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Afti, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. Afti

    Afti

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    [​IMG]

    Magnezone

    [SET]
    name: Magnezone (Analytic)
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Flash Cannon / Substitute
    move 4: Volt Switch / Charge Beam
    item: Choice Specs / Leftovers
    ability: Analytic
    nature: Modest
    evs: 204 HP / 252 SpA / 52 Spd

    Why this deserves to be on-site

    - Magnezone's SpA is absolutely immense, and with an Analytic boost it's able to OHKO or 2HKO a large part of the game
    - Not a Steel-trapper, but a very, very powerful offensive pivot
    - Specs can come in on a healthy Dragonite, survive Outrage (possibly even twice) and OHKO back with HP Ice (todo: calc block inc. this)
    - Volt Switch makes it into something that can devastate an opponent while switching out, with good bulk acting as a shield for the incoming Pokémon- very much like a Special Scizor; Charge Beam turns Magnezone into something with an absolutely comical amount of power behind its attacks
    - It goes without saying that you never, ever, ever use Substitute or Charge Beam with Specs. Leftovers/Substitute gives Magnezone more survivability, and it still hits like a freight train.
    - It's important to understand: this set is a Magnezone, but it does NOT play and should not be played "like Magnezone"; again, think of it as a Special Scizor minus the priority. If you try to use it as a Steel-trapper, it may have some success due to foes assuming it carries Magnet Pull, but that's reliant on an opponent's misplaying; if you try to play this "as Magnezone" it will die and you will lose. Hard.
    Additional comments
    - HP Fire gets arguably better coverage than Ice, but this set is meant to be used in the rain, and it loses you Dragon-slaying ability
    - Thunder is ridiculously powerful with Rain support
    Thunder does silly amounts of damage (open)

    - Used in Rain, Magnezone's Thunder wields an insane amount of power
    - Bulky enough to hold its own against the many, many defensive Pokémon it 2HKOs. Breaks Specially Defensive Jirachi in half.
    - If you can find a chance to get it in, very little can switch safely into Thunder. OHKOs most of OU- if Scizor dares use Bullet Punch (for example) you can bring in Magnezone and something is going to die.
    - Losing Magnet Pull sucks, but if your team functions without Magnet Pull Magnezone this set is worth considering for it.
    - Even things that resist Thunder lose half their health coming in
    - Politoed is of course vital; Thunder outside of Rain is a bad move at best
    - Take away the rain and Magnezone is in trouble; do not bring this out if the opponent has a healthy Tyranitar/Ninetales.


    - Magnezone's movepool is horrible, so fairly few

    Teammates & Counters
    - Magnezone will bait out Ground types, Ferrothorn, and Lati@s; it's advised to run things that can deal with them. For instance, (scarf) Hydreigon is a worthy choice, as is Scizor. Ferrothorn only checks the Specs variant; it's set-up bait for Sub/Charge Beam.
    - Vulnerable to revenge-killing due to its low speed; switch after a kill unless you're certain the opponent's not carrying anything super-effective; Magnezone forces the opponent to play predictably or lose something, so you can exploit this
    - Gastrodon sucks to fight; this guy benefits from something which can ruin its day. Surprise HP Grass on a Water-type works- draw Gastro in and murder it. On Pokémon such as Gastrodon or Starmie (or of course Jellicent!) which receive Energy Ball, it is always a better option. Decently powerful Grass-types (Celebi, Breloom, possibly Virizion) work well too, but Gastro won't willingly come in on them. Specs Latios has a stupidly powerful Psyshock to throw at Blissey/Chansey/Gastrodon.
    - In general, you really want something that can take Earthquake or Fire Blast for Magnezone.
    - Magnet Pull Magnezone and Dugtrio can trap it; Dugtrio is immune to Electric, but while opposing Magnezone can cripple or kill this one with HP Fire they do so at a substantial cost to themselves- indeed, their ability to manage the kill hinges on a dice roll; it's very possible they'll come out the loser. Dugtrio just laughs at this guy, though- particularly Specs variants, which are literally helpless.

    Yeah, non-Magnet-Pull Magnezone is unusual, to say the least. But this actually works really well on the right team; that SpA kills all kinds of things. I invite people to try it before passing judgment; you'll find that it's a solid choice for teams without overly-great Steel weaknesses.

    (Thunder is a slash on the main set; Politoed is common enough that I think it's worth giving a slash, and the sheer offensive power is flabbergasting.)
  2. Mynism

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    Could you give us some calcs ? Also, mention Dugtrio/Magnet Pull Magnezone in counter. The first let no chance to this set (and is immune to half is move, and don't care about HP Fire in the rain) and the last can get in on Flash Cannon/HP Ice and set-up.
  3. Afti

    Afti

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    Sure thing; mentioned enemy trappers, and added a small list of calcs.
  4. alexwolf

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    Wait does Analytic work when the opponent switches out?
  5. Afti

    Afti

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    I'm reasonably certain it does; in my experience that seems to be the case, and as switching is treated as a "move" with very high priority by the game...
  6. -Tsunami-

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    honestly this set seems pointless. The ONLY reason that Magnezone is OU is because of Magnet Pull. There's no reason to use Magnezone if you're not using it. There are better special attackers out there, and with no Speed, Magnezone will easily get domlished by Ground-type attacks and rain-boosted Water-type attacks. Also, the calcs provided aren't too helpful since all of the mentioned Pokemon OHKO Magnezone (bar Jirachi, but Magnet Pull Magnezone beats it too).
  7. Afti

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    The idea with those calcs is to show that these can't switch in. It's intended to be sent out against a weaker, more defensive Pokémon or something Choice-locked into an unfavorable move and force them to switch into one of the fairly few things that can take a Thunder from it. From there, double-switch into your answer, or if the opponent's team has been beaten into being vulnerable to Thunder kill whatever's out. Magnezone shouldn't be taking Ground-type attacks or Water attacks in Rain; it's hard to bring out but is an effective bait when it IS out.

    Without Magnet Pull Magnezone wouldn't be OU, definitely! But I do feel this set has a viable niche, however small.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Not really. Specially defensive Heatran is 2hkoed while it can't ohko back even outside of rain and offensive Heatran is ohkoed on the switch after SR. Magnezone also gets 2hkoed while failing to ohko.

    All these, assuming that they switch in on you of 'course.
  9. Chillarmy

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    I'm in agreement with ShakeItUp. Magnet Pull is far too important to Magnezone to give up for a 30% increase in the base power of one of Magnezone's attacks. Honestly, I live the idea of spamming revved up Volt Switches, as well as breaking through Blissey and Latias with Thunder, but losing the ability to trap and KO a Pokemon (thus pressuring, or opening up the opportunity to pressure the opposition) just isn't worth it.

    If Scizor uses Bullet Punch, the player using Scizor can easily switch to a Thunder immunity, effectively forcing Magnezone out (or trapping it, in Dugtrio's case). This is where Magnet Pull has the the advantage; Magnezone can give its team some momentum by trapping a (seemingly) helpless Steel-type. I'm guessing that the only reason to use this Magnezone over Eelektross, Jolteon, Zapdos, etc is the Steel typing...?

    Not only this, but the extra power provided by Analytic doesn't make much of a difference in Magnezone's damage output. In other words, Magnezone won't be achieving much with Analytic that it already does without it. For example, specially defensive Heatran takes 57.8% - 68.4% from a non-Analytic Choice Specs Thunder; because of Magnet Pull and Speed investment, Magnezone can simply 2HKO this particular variant of Heatran, without taking so much as a scratch. This can be applied to many other defensive Pokemon as well. More offensive Pokemon, particularly Heatran and opposing Magnezone, can't switch in without risking being beaten down by Thunder, either.
  10. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    This

    If you want to persuade people to actually give credit to your set, you shouldn't list simple calcs, but specific calcs where you show that the 30% boost from Analytic can make the difference in beating or not the foe. For example, the calc on Scizor is hardly meaningful, as Magnet Pull Magnezone gets the kill as well. And Jirachi is 2HKOed anyway.
  11. Pocket

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    I think a more convincing argument can be made for Analytic Magnezone if you can show how it can break through normal Thunder sponges, such as Celebi, Latias, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, and Chansey, thanks to Analytic.

    Although Magnet Pull is the big reason to use Magnezone, it does possess many key resistances to switch-in effortlessly and start wrecking the opponent with its powerful Thunder.

    Celebi (220 HP)
    Non-Analytic Thunder: 40-47% (3HKO)
    Analytic Thunder: 53-62% (2HKO)

    Latias (252 HP)
    Non-Analytic Thunder: 35-41% (3HKO w/ Rocks)
    Analytic Thunder: 46-54% (2HKO w/ Rocks)

    ~ an issue here is that a paralysis on Latias would lose the analytic boost, but paralyzing Latias is just as good.

    +1 Tyranitar (252 HP / 192 SpD+)
    Non-Analytic Thunder: 40-47% (3HKO)
    Analytic Thunder: 52-61% (2HKO)

    ~ Fire Blast from TTar does 55-66% max in sandstorm, so Magnezone can go for the 49% chance of 2HKO (or have TTar paralyzed with the 1st Thunder and knocked out by a Non-Analytic Thunder with Rocks up).

    Ferrothron (252 HP / 168 SpD)
    can't under-speed Ferro!!!

    Chansey (240 HP / 16 SpD)
    Non-Analytic Thunder: 29-34% (3HKO w/ Rocks)
    Analytic Thunder: 37-44% (3HKO)

    Blissey (252 HP / 4 SpD)
    Non-Analytic Thunder: 34-41% (3HKO w/ Rocks)
    Analytic Thunder: 45-53% (good chance to 2HKO w/ Rocks)

    Magnezone (36 HP)
    Non-Analytic Thunder: 60-71% (2HKO)
    Analytic Thunder: 78-93% (37.5% chance to OHKO w/ Spikes)

    ~ Yea opposing Magnezone can't do squat to Specs Magnezone without HP Ground, especially with Rain up, so I'll remove it from Counters / mention how it's a poor check at best.

    Analytic helps against the common Celebi, Latias, Blissey, and SDef TTar.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    The calcs that you posted in the OP are without the Analytic boost. Also i will ask again since noone answered before. If you opponent is switching out do you get the Analytic boost?

    EDIT: Here are some more calcs against the common ground switch-ins to Zone, all with the Analytic boost :

    -Flash Cannon vs Gliscor : 100.28 - 118.07%, sure ohko while without it you only have like a 5% chance to ohko. While you could argue that a 5% Gliscor is as good as dead, Gliscor can easily heal back to great health with Protect and Poiso Heal and continue stopping you physical sweepers

    -Flash Cannon vs Landorus : 117.55 - 138.55%, this is an unconditional ohko, while without Analytic you would need SR. Not much of a difference but still...

    -Flash Cannon vs Mixed Attcker Ttar : 70.29 - 83.16%, great chance of ohko after 2 SR switch-ins or with SR + Spikes
    vs Choice Band Ttar : 97.89 - 115.78%, almost unconditional ohko
    vs Choise Scarf Ttar : 108.77 - 128.65%, ....
    vs Specially Defensive Ttar : 66.83 - 78.71%, solid 2hko

    -Thunder vs Offensive Ninetales : 97.56 - 114.98%, almost unconditional ohko
    vs Sunny Day Ninetales : 85.89 - 101.56%, ohko after SR or Spikes
    vs Specially Defensive Ninetales : 64.57 - 76.28%, very slim chance of ohko after SR

    -Volt Switch vs Offensive Tales : 56.79 - 67.24%
    vs Sunny Day Tales : 50.15 - 59.56%
    vs Specially Defensive Tales : 38 - 44.85%

    As you can see, if you pare it with a Scarf Politoed, most Ninetales will be hugely pressed or just ohkoed. Ninetales who is an ok switch to Magnezone gets destroyed by Thunder and gets ohkoed after SR, except from the Specially defensive set. Of 'course this happens only 50% of the time due to the sun but still...

    As you can see this Magnezone can help a lot with the weather wars easily destroying both Ttar and Ninetales. Use it combined with a Scarf Politoed and the pressure will be immense. Just be sure to pack something that deals very well with the annoyance called Ferro!
  13. prem

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    slash thunderbolt with thunder. there is no reason as to why this set should only function in rain.

    also not trying to ruin this set or anything, but we already have a choice specs set on site. we can just mention analytic in the AC because it honestly is the exact same set with a different nature and ability
  14. Dolorous Intent

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    Yes, but this set has to be played very differently due to the lack of trapping.
  15. twash

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    Personally, I always feel as though Magnezone needs a large Speed investment to be useful outside of trapping Steels. Its able to trap Skarmory and friends regardless of how fast it is, but if it wants to be useful otherwise it really needs to be switching in on one of its several resistances, and hitting "quickly" with a STAB Electric attack. Otherwise it will just get hammered by a strong attack, even from some relatively slow Pokemon. While Magnezone's defenses aren't poor, it definitely can't stand up to hits easily as its few weaknesses are very common (and often paired alongside what it resists too).

    That is where my problem is with this set. No Magnet Pull means you aren't trapping Steels, so you need to use Magnezone's other assets. And I think this set pretty much throws them away by dropping a huge potential amount of Speed. Magnezone is in a position where Speed EVs make a lot of difference against strong Pokemon that lie in a very tight Speed range, and losing that is a real worry. I agree with prem, a mention in AC is probably enough imo.
  16. Pocket

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    twash and prem brought up valid points, but this set has 2 variables that distinguishes it from the Specs set:

    1) No Magnet Pull - The lack of Magnet Pull makes this Magnezone operate differently from the conventional Magnezone. Even the SpecsZone on-site boasts about its ability to OHKO Ferrothorn with HP Fire, for which this set is not used for.

    2) Capable of breaking through conventional walls. As the calcs show, the Analytic boost provides it enough power to even 2HKO Blissey!

    There are ways to distinguish the set further from the Specs set. For one, the Specs set does not have to be mandatory; I am pretty sure this Magnezone can hold Leftovers / Life Orb and replace Volt Switch with Charge Beam / Metal Sound to retain its wall-breaking function. These different options need to be tested.

    However, twash has a valid point. The loss in Speed may put Magnezone in a similar circumstance as Rhyperior / Rampardos - Pokemon that hits like a truck but are less viable in OU because of their inability to survive strong hits thrown around. Play-testing would be required to affirm this conclusion.
  17. prem

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    when i use specszone, im not using it for trapping steels because the steel trapper set does that so much better in every way. Specszone is meant to fuck things up. magnet pull is not the draw of specszone its just a bonus, which is what analytic would be. both analytic and regular specszone do not play any differently besides the fact that you will be taking more hits using analytic when compared to using magnet pull, which i personally dont think should warrant a whole knew set.

    also assuming this does get accepted and stuff, add in ivs: 0 Spe
  18. Afti

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    I'm fulling willing to concede that it may be best to have this as some Specszone slashes. I just worry about slashitis in such a case.

    Yeah, Bolt as a slash is well-advised; you don't have the utterly stupid amount of power to throw around, but it still hits like a truck and is useful outside of Rain. Though I'll note that Thunder has one interesting quality even if you're worried about losing Rain- it makes Magnezone into something Tyranitar thinks twice about coming in on; accuracy is spotty in the sand, but switching into the Thunder is flipping a coin where tails cripples or kills (depending on bulk, field conditions) you. Regardless, if you're not running Rain it goes without saying you want Bolt.

    Metal Sound I have my doubts about due to the ease of escaping it (though, then again, whatever switches in after that is eating a Thunder to the face!) but Charge Beam could be viable.

    Technically you don't always want 0 speed- if you use HP Fire you have it at 2.
  19. blunder

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    I really like this set, as it is a whole different take on Magnezone. Maybe in the AC you could slash HP Grass? It could help to Gastrodon, and a question- If the Pokemon has analytic, would it get the 30% boost if the opponent has switched something into it?
  20. Dolorous Intent

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    Thunder, that question has been answered earlier in this thread:

  21. AccidentalGreed

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  22. PK Gaming

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    Magnezone without Magnet Pull just isn't viable. Sure its strong, but its inability to 2HKO anything (Even max speed magnezone can get the jump on a few naturally fast Pokemon that don't invest in speed) There are tons of faster "strong" electric types I would use over Magnezone ordinarily, Magnet Pull sets it apart. Analytic is AC material at best.

    QC REJECTED (1/3)
  23. Pocket

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    DDR Master's post on the Creative Moveset thread gives me hope that Analytic Magnezone is not all talk, but actually viable in practice. As DDR Master shows here, Magnezone can run some Speed to check important threats, while still make use of switches and faster mons to abuse the Analytic boost.

    My only question is whether or not Specs is the only viable option Analytic Magnezone have. Leftovers or Life Orb Magnezone with Metal Sound, Charge Beam and / or Substitute sounds appealing to me. Metal Sound allows Magnezone to even overcome Chansey / Blissey. Even more, Metal Sound would encourage switches, which would activate Analytic. Substitute with either LO or Charge Beam would protect Magnezone from faster threats, and retaliate hard with an Analytic-reinforced hit :d
  24. Doughboy

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    ^Those opportunities for Substitute come from trapping Steels which we won't have on this set. It won't be completely apparent to the opponent that we are running Analytic, so there won't be any extra "fear" for the opponent wanting to switch out. LO diminishes his decent bulk that allows him to switch in easily. But why Choice Specs over Leftovers? We all know what the big draw for this set is; that smexy Thunder we will be spamming. Seeing as how we will only be spamming Thunder, Choice Specs is the way to go.
  25. AccidentalGreed

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    Pokemon Showdown indicates whether or not your Pokemon can switch out of certain foes with trapping abilities by sending a message indicating so (on the turn it switches in), so it will be apparent which ability Magnezone is running the moment it comes in.

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