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Magnezone (Analytic) [QC please read SDS' latest post]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Afti, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    ThePillsburyDoughBoy, this Magnezone has the same opportunities as the conventional Magnezone to come in on harmless Steel-types to effortlessly put up a Substitute. The opponent can switch out, but you still have the Substitute up. You probably meant to say Sub & Charge Beam, which I agree is much harder to pull off with this set.

    Life Orb may be bad for Magnezone's bulk, but its resistance would still allow Magnezone to find opportunities to switch-in.
  2. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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  3. emirinho

    emirinho

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    This is a pretty original set.
    Even though magnezone doesn't have his excellent ability, magnet pull, he can still act as a surprise factor. However, magnezone is pretty fragile to terrakion,infernape,conkeldurr and many other fighting pokemon that will force you to switch and the set up on you.
    You have to act smart and keep magnezone safe until you are sure you can switch him in. You also have to try to predict when your opponent wants to switch, that's the hard part. If you can manage to predict well with magnezone he can be a very useful poke, but it is very hard. You should write some more pokes with which specs/analytic zone goes well.
  4. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    So I've been testing this set out this week, and Analytic Magnezone is definitely viable. Although, I would not think of using Magnezone in a Dual Screen HO team, it is a powerful Electric tank that can fit well in bulkier teams. Although it is slow, it offers usable bulk, resistances, and enormous power that rivals OTR Reuniclus. Magnezone, with its 130 SpA hits like a truck with essentially a free LO boost - the ability fits well on a Pokemon that can switch-in safely, thanks to its respectable bulk and Steel resistances, and forces switches often (which fuels Analytic). The Spec variant in particular packs incredible power in its attacks, and really wears down team with boosted Volt Switch along with hazard support. The defensive investment really does help it stomache hits - as DDR Master referenced in his post, it can tank two +1 Outrage from Dragonite, making it a formidable counter to Dragonite, esp in Rain. Specs Magnezone breaks through Dragonite's MultiScale and OHKOs with HP Ice.

    I've tried a non-choiced set with Substitute and Metal Sound over Flash Cannon and Volt Switch, and it still gets the job done, especially since a regular Magnezone already hits really hard already. SubMetal Magnezone can easily beat CM Latias, its HP Ice doing 48-57% to Latias on the switch, quickly putting it on the defensive.

    The perk to all of this is that the opponent never suspects it being an Analytic Magnezone, so they play as it is the usual Steel Trapper. Players leave their own Magnezone to die to this one, not knowing that they can easily switch out, for instance - my Ferrothorn then sets up hazards willy nilly. Just like how Landorus can bluff a scarf set with an Expert Belt set, this Magnezone gets to abuse an extra LO boost while inadvertently killing Steels.

    So yea, I am approving this set. I would change the set a little though:

    [SET]
    name: Magnezone (Analytic)
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Flash Cannon / Substitute
    move 4: Volt Switch / Metal Sound
    item: Choice Specs / Leftovers
    ability: Analytic
    nature: Modest
    evs: 204 HP / 252 SpA / 52 Spd
    • With this set format, it shows how Magnezone can take advantage of Analytic boost either via Choice Specs or Sub & Metal Sound. The way I formatted, people can use Substitute & Volt Switch, as well.
    • yea, I think DDR Master's spread is better, because the Speed still comes in handy to outrun Scizor with 8 Spe, which is a reasonable threshold to pass without compromising its bulk. The original min Speed, Quiet Nature spread may be mention in AC
    • large AC mention for Thunder and Rain support to make this is a beastly tank
    • HP Fire is AC material, imo, since you want to ideally use this with Rain support. HP Ice really gives Magnezone the utility in taking out Dragon-types and provides more coverage. Standard Ferrothorn is a 3HKO with Specs Thunder, and Substitute & Metal Sound owns Ferro anyways.
    • AC mention Charge Beam, since it can still pull it off

    Some logs - Magnezone is not only useful to kill Steels, and Analytic boost definitely helps it be a special force to be reckoned with. Note that not all of these are Specs Magnezone (in fact I think most of them hold lefties). In the 2nd log, it even loses its Specs turn 1 lol.

    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-McMagic-vs-Quality-Checker--2012-02-14-1
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Katakiriteer-vs-Quality-Checker--2012-02-14-2
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Voidlivion-vs-Quality-Checker--2012-02-16
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Quality-Checker-vs-Gamera--2012-02-17
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-CeeCaf-vs-Briggs-Bear--2012-02-18
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-AllenPass-vs-Laptop--2012-02-28
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Laptop-vs-Lovely--2012-02-29
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-gr8astard2-vs-Laptop--2012-02-29
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Just a nitpick, but outspeeding 8 Spe Scizor isn't considered speed creep?
  6. pie cream

    pie cream

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    I don't yhink so because scizor most of the time have 248 hp evs for the sr / spikes number.
  7. Pocket

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    Honestly CB Scizor's remaining 8 EVs can very well go into Speed - in fact that was the most common Scizor set this month. harsha & Wario's Volt-Turn analysis also have the 8 EVs in Spe. So under these context it would not be speed creeping. However, it is true that either the CB Scizor set on-site or Analytic Magnezone's spread must be changed, so I'll be talking with other QC members about that.

    Afti, please incorporate my suggestions so this can be approved.

    EDIT: nope - it's not speed creeping as long as the Speed is only 1 point above a particular set you're trying to outrun. Check out the current CBTar's set on-site, for instance.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    What i meant is that pokes in analyses are supposed to use speed evs to either outspeed max or min speed threats, right?

    So a poke in an analysis can have enough speed to outspeed 0 Spe neutral nature Heatran, 0 Spe negative nature Heatran, max Spe positive nature Heatran or max Spe neutral nature Heatran but should not run any evs between 0 and 252 right? Isn't this speed creep?
  9. Afti

    Afti

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    Yeah, sorry to have taken so long to get back to this.

    Speed creep refers to EVing to deal with spreads which are possible but not at all likely. Scizor typically runs 8 Spe, so EVing to deal with that makes sense. Now, if you were considering 12/16/etc. Spe Scizor, that would be speed creep.
  10. Pocket

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    ^ At least that's what I believe, but if other QCers tell you to drop that extra 8 Spe EVs, then just go with the flow :o

    I am glad that you have fully taken in my suggestions by copying them onto your OP, but it's by no means meant to be a skeleton of this analysis (although it's a significant part of it). Basically, my post is not sufficient enough - you need to explain how this set is different from the other Magnezones:
    • Thus, you must explain the appealing qualities of Analytic. An example damage calc(s) are great to show this. For instance, Specs Magnezone can OHKO Dragonite with HP Ice (Multiscale INTACT).
    • Furthermore, you need to stress that it is not meant to trap and kill Steels, which can explain the lack of HP Fire.
    • You could mention that this set can still end up doing the conventional Steel-Killing job, though, since people assume right away that it has Magnet Pull (and then they are caught by surprise when Magnezone does SO MUCH damage xD).
    • Also emphasize its bulk, which enables it to actively inject itself into battle and start dishing out damage. Again Damage Calcs would be good. For instance, +1 Outrage from Dragonite only does 43-51% to Magnezone - this gives Magnezone a good chance to absorb TWO Outrages, saving the need to sac something to Dragonite's Outrage.

    As I have advised, please mention HP Fire in Additional Comments, not in "Why this deserves to be on-site." Same for Charge Beam and Thunder, since they are not on the main set (but provide big support for Thunder and Rain). Also bring up the AC mention on Volt Switch under "Why this set deserves to be on-site," since it is part of the main set.

    EDIT: Actually replace Metal Sound for Charge Beam on the main set, since this Magnezone is a fucking nuke after +1 SpA. Move all comments about Metal Sound to AC and Charge Beam to the main set descriptions.

    Teammates and Counters

    Ferrothorn is actually set-up bait for Sub Magnezone, since its STAB moves cannot break Magnezone's Substitute, so specify this as a Specs Magnezone's problem. Specify the Hydreigon that you recommended as Scarfed, since non-scarfed variants cannot beat the Lati twins. Add Scizor as another mon that can dispatch, Ferrothorn, Latis, Celebi, Blissey / Chansey, and Tyranitar.

    A Pokemon that can set up on or eliminate Gastrodon would also be worth a mention as well, such as a surprise HP Grass on an offensive Water-type, ie Politoed, Rotom-W or Starmie. Specs Latios can take out Gastrodon and the pink blobs with Psyshock, as well as being able to clean up after Tyranitar or Ferrothorn is worn down or even removed by Magnezone. Grass-types such as Celebi and Breloom can also deal with Gastrodon, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and possibly the pink blobs.

    You could also mention that some of the teammates mentioned above are also good for switching into EQs, Close Combats, or Fire Blasts aimed towards Magnezone. These include Latios, Hydreigon, Celebi, Rotom-W, and Politoed.

    On your blurb on Magnezone being trapped by other Magnezones, make sure to note that this Magnezone would usually end up beating the trappers, thanks to its good bulk combined with the Analytic-boosted STAB Thunder or Thunderbolt. Dugtrio kills it, though.

    Plz make these changes, so we can get this thing on-site. Thanks for returning to this analysis, Afti!
  11. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I tried using the specs version of this set for a bit, and I must say I'm quite impressed. It was stunningly powerful and quite bulky too. This is the only Magnezone with which I've actually beaten CM jirachi, for example. With the steel killer, I usually just end up screwing my entire team over trying to do that.

    What I've learned:


    • Not a single steel switched out at the sight of Magnezone while I was using this set, even after I'd fired off attacks that clearly did too much damage for Magnet Pull Magnezone. More steels switched out of me when I was using Magnet Pull Magnezone earlier today (chanced upon some shed shell users lol). So yeah it's worth mentioning that steel trapping is very possible against careless opponents.
    • HP Grass should be mentioned in AC at least IMO, as I had trouble with Gastrodon, Swampert, and Quagsire. HP Ice was surprisingly rather rarely needed (Flash Cannon or Thunder would usually suffice).
    • Specs Charge beam is silly in my opinion. The main draw of this set is the game's most powerful Volt Switch (bar none, I believe). So I'd say remove that mention. of Specs Charge beam vs Ferrothorn. You should win anyway unless it has leech seed + Protect, in which case I'm not sure what happens.

    Does anyone else think this is clearly two different sets? I mean they have different items and two moves different, and don't play all that similarly (one being a hugely powerful volt-turner that requires a little prediction, and the other being a typical Substitute user). I would also question the viability of the substitute set on its own; the main draw to sub magnezone is to set up subs on helpless steels when they are trapped, and this set can't do that to the same degree unless the opponent makes a mistake. Magnezone is not all that concerned with status as many sub users are, and is much slower than the average substitute user.

    Of course this is all just my opinion and results from a fairly small sample of games, but I hope this is helpful.

    edit: Most of your logs are with Sub Pocket. I think you may only have one with specs that last more than one turn, so given how much better you play than me, I can't really tell how good the sub set actually is (nothing to compare it with). Sub Magnezone clearly didn't perform badly in the logs, but the specs set was IMO better than and completely different from it.

    edit2: it's worth mentioning that Magnezone has a significant psychological effect on the opponent merely from team preview, causing the opponent to play extremely cautiously with Skarm, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Forretress and other vital pokemon which would otherwise often come out near the beginning of the match.
  12. Pocket

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    I'm glad that you had the opportunity to test Analytic Magnezone, jc104!

    Charge Beam is meant to work in conjunction with Substitute & Leftovers, or at least with Leftovers - please make this clearer on the main set descriptions, Afti:
    Follow this statement with Charge Beam should only be used with Leftovers, as it is too weak to be used on the Specs set. Charge Beam allows non-Specs varaint to hit as hard as Specs Magnezone after a single boost with the ability to change moves and leftovers recovery.
    No, don't say this; Specs Charge Beam is pitiful. You're better off using Thunder to 3HKO Ferrothorn or let other mons handle it.

    I find HP Ice useful as a sole coverage move on SubCharge variants and for finishing off Dragon-types (most notably Dragonite). The extra power difference allows non-Specs HP Ice to possibly score a 2HKO (with Rocks) on even Latias when she switches in; Flash Cannon misses out on this chance to 2HKO. HP Grass deserves an AC mention on non-Sub Charge Beam sets for taking out Gastrodon, though.

    If you want to check out Sub Magnezone in action, look at my replays - I think the last 2 replays use this particular Magnezone variant. I personally find Analytic Magnezone kicking more ass with Sub Charge Beam strategy than the standard Steel Killer set. Substitute comes in handy, because it protects Magnezone from revenge-killers, often netting an additional crucial kill. Subs unbreakable by U-turn & Volt Switch makes it just that much harder to finish Magnezone without sacrificing something. Specs & Volt Switch is definitely NOT the only way to make use of Analytic Magnezone.
  13. DDRMaster

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    Personally, I would never run HP Grass over HP Ice, even on the Specs set. Choice Specs Flash Cannon will never 2HKO bulky Dragonite if Multiscale is intact and Thunder won't always be useful as Rain won't necessarily be up. Choice Specs HP Ice will also always OHKO offensive Dragonite through Multiscale, so you'll only have to take one attack (+1 or Sun boosted Fire Punch will 2HKO Magnezone.)

    HP Grass does OHKO Gastrodon, but it's generally easier to deal with than Dragonite.
  14. Afti

    Afti

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    ...Yeah, I actually can see splitting Sub/Specs; Analytic is really the only thing their playstyle shares.

    Specs Charge Beam is something I saw having niche use, but yeah, it's mostly pretty bad.
  15. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    Not the best example you could use - replace mention of Jellicent with HP Grass on Rotom-W, Politoed, or Starmie instead.

    Otherwise, GJ, Afti!

    QC Approved (1/3)
  16. Afti

    Afti

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    I'm allowed to make cheap jokes on skeletons, right? =P
  17. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    Humor is always a good addition to analysis, as long as it adds to the point that you are making. Humor that distracts readers are not effective ones.

    Also, conventionally Electric-types do not have Thunder slashed with Thunderbolt, so I would remove Thunder from the moveset and give it a big mention on the AC instead, including your Thunder calcs and all dat jazz.
  18. /B/utterfree

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    I'm actually surprised someone made a non-Magnet Pull set of Magnezone. I strongly encourage the continuation of this analysis. I might even run it when I'm not otherwise busy with Standard OU.

    At any rate, you have my approval, official or not. Magnezone is one of my favorite Electric-type Pokemon in the entirety of the game.

    HOWEVER:

    Why isn't Volt Switch slashed? With Choice items you lock yourself into your Electric move otherwise; there are plenty of Ground-types capable of exploiting this set once it's locked on to the move. I'd find it safer for Volt Switch to be used as the main Electric attack. However, Thunder also holds merit, because otherwise you miss out on key OHKOs.
  19. Afti

    Afti

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    Volt Switch IS on the set...
  20. /B/utterfree

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    Oh.

    Carry on, then.
  21. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Sucks with Charge Beam, mention it on the onsite Specs spread and move on.

    QC REJECTED (2/3)
  22. Pocket

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    Ummm have you seen the battle replays on my post above, where non-Specs Magnezone owning with Analytic boost?
  23. nygerman

    nygerman

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    Yeah, Dugtrio stomps this set and this set takes too much damage. Everytime I try to kill a politoad, I take like 73% from surf. I rather outsped a politoad and OHKO
  24. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    All I can say is you're using it wrong. If you see my replays, you can see how much damage it can dish out before it bites the dust. It's not rare that it can take out 2-3 mons or even sweep if it can kill its revenge-killer behind its Sub.
  25. Cherub Agent

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    I agree with Pocket. Analytic Magnezone is montruously powerful. The ability to OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale is incredible, considering HP Ice isn't even a STAB move, and Magnezone is a truly effective tank, since it resists more types than any Pokemon in the game. That Volt Switch is also stunning. I've got nothing really to add that Pocket already hasn't, but I just want to voice my support for this set, you really have to try it out to see ho different it is from other Magnezone.

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