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Magnezone (Analytic) [QC please read SDS' latest post]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Afti, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Pocket, I get the logic behind wanting to write up new sets (Magnet Pull plays completely different than Analytic), but there's the logistical nightmare of how they're structurally nearly identical. That being said, I am rewriting the Specs set because I hate how I wrote it and I'm devoting a full paragraph in the AC to Analytic because holy shit it can 2HKO 252/4 Blissey with hazards.

    Maybe it'd be better just to do a full update for 'Zone instead of trying to juggle so many sets without writing anything super similar.
  2. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    I can absolutely say that Specs plays identically. I've rarely put Specs (or Scarf) Zone on a team because I want to trap steels- that's just a happy coincidence. The reason to use Magnezone as a choice user is (usually) because you want to hit ridiculously hard with 70/115/90 defenses and a unique (and excellent) typing. Both have their advantages- Analytic provides a significant power boost, especially notable on the switch with Volt Switch (a 30% stronger Analytic Volt Switch is about as strong as a non-Analytic Thunderbolt), but Magnet Pull gives you a secondary advantage of trapping Steel-types.

    I still think the Substitute sets are too similar to be written separately, but I will not budge on the Specs sets being combined.
  3. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Working on that.
  4. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Magnezone's main purpose has always been trapping Steels - the ability to hit ridiculously hard is just a happy coincidence. There is no reason to run Magnet Pull over Analytic otherwise. The fact that this set foregoes the main reason to use Magnezone in order to hit like a nuke and kill more mons is enough reason for the isolation from Magnet Pull sets.

    Analytic Magnezone has significantly better bulk and power over SubChargeBeam set on-site. Going Modest and Analytic gives it so much more killing power. Plus investing in HP > Speed allows it to take so much more abuse. I actually appreciated the non-choiced variant more for Analytic Magnezone, because the leftovers recovery preserves its bulk much better.

    SDS - what are your proposing exactly? To give an AC mention on the Specs set about Analytic, and dump the rest? Unless you have a more agreeable compromise to sway the opinions of other QC members and me, arguing any further is meaningless. You had your say, but this is already fully QC approved, so I feel unfair that you are delaying the process of getting this up.

    I already proved through actual play experience how this set works and how it has drastically better killing power than your regular Magnezone. Again, I urge you to check out the post with my log replays on the second page.
  5. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    I never said an AC mention. I also never said the Specs Analytic set was bad. The set would be reworked and Analytic would be slashed on. Same with the Substitute set.

    EDIT: Please come onto IRC so we can discuss this.
  6. Afti

    Afti

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    All right, so I missed the IRC session in question- did anything happen on that front, or am I good to start writing this?
  7. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Sent SDS a reminder PM - he is a busy man so he needs reminders. Anyways, he has issues with the presentation of Analytic Magnezone as a single set. He strongly believes that the on-site Specs Magnezone should be revamped with an added emphasis on Analytic. Also, there may either be a non-Specs Analytic Magnezone set or a revamp of the Sub & Charge Beam Magnezone on-site with added emphasis on Analytic.
  8. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Just a reminder- I'm looking for QCers to talk to.

    The issue with Analytic as a single set is not a QC matter. It is a C&C policy issue, and the set as it stands is 100% absolutely unacceptable as a matter of policy. Ramming two sets together and making one incoherent set of it isn't something we'll see on site.

    I strongly believe Analytic should be second-slashed onto both the Choice Specs and SubCharge analyses. Two sets that play nearly identically shouldn't be two different sets. I get that Magnet Pull is a big deal, but for a set like Choice Specs, which just wants to come in and blast with Specs, the difference isn't huge. Same with SubCharge, which just looks to set up and explode an opposing Pokemon.

    I'm especially suspicious of the efficacy of the SubCharge set, and would like QCers that look at this to come find me on IRC (or send me a PM if I'm not on) to talk about this. As a result, I'm changing the tag back to QC until we figure out what exactly is getting written.
  9. dadoux

    dadoux formerly Morpheus

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    I tried an Hp fire+ sunny day zone and it works surprisingly well, with expert belt Ferrothorn is OHKO ( i hate to "trap" ferrothorn and let him set-up 3 layer of spikes ), CM Rainrachi can't do anything too and hp fire can do a shitload of damage to him.

    And it's kinda funny when you play with no weather and the dude let you kill his politoed.

    It's a fun set, Other options maybe ?
  10. shrang

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    Okay, I haven't actually used Analytic Magnezone, but here are my thoughts:

    Specs - It can work well on Specs, since you're playing the role of a bulky tank that Volt Switches everywhere like Scizor. Obviously, Magnet Pull is still preferred due to its utility, but since Magnezone has great typing and great stats, and is slow, Analytic could work well on that. It'll be like a special Scizor, except more powerful, if you will. We could just slash Analytic onto the Specs set, then add a whole paragraph on how you use it.

    SubCharge - No. The SubCharge set is specifically there so you can set up on Steel-types that you trap, like Scizor and Ferrothorn. It's the sort of auto-kill 2-3 Pokemon setup Pokemon because you've trapped them. You can't set up without trapping your target most of the time. Unlike on Shoddy, we can easily tell whether our Ferrothorn or Scizor is trapped, since the option to switch would be greyed out, so you can't do what some people did on Shoddy and bluff the trapping ability anyway. Yes, it's powerful, but Magnet Pull is really what makes the SubCharge set dangerous. I reckon either an AC mention or even nothing at all would be good enough.
  11. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    That is what I have. Just waiting for SDS and the rest of the QC team to get back to this topic.
  12. ginganinja

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    O.k after all this discussion I went online and tested out both Mag sets with analytic. Basically, I found that the added power of analytic on the Specs set was just awesome, and it kinda made the trade off o.k in losing Magnet Pull. It was good at holding momentum and Volt Switching again, doing a fair amount of damage, and yea, it was pretty fun. I fully support anaytic getting a slash / mention / whatever on the Specs set, since it was very cool to use.

    Then I tested the Sub Charge set, and it didn't really "wow" me. Maybe I was using it wrong, but it lacked the initial power I wanted, and it couldn't trap steels. In the end, I just switched back to Magnet Pull so that it was not an utter dead weight or something. I would try bringing it in on something and getting up a Sub, (like Ferrothorn) but the smart players just switched out and brought in T-Tar or something. It was o.k as a Sub user, switching into stuff like Ferrothorn and forcing then out, however it lost is niche value in trapping steel types, and then i started wondering why I wasn't running something like Sub Heatran, Sub Volcarona, Sub Loom, or anything else that could switch in and set up on Ferrothorn and stuff. Did not enjoy analytic on this set at all.

    tl:dr

    I liked analytic on the Specs, not so much on the Sub Charge Beam set since I began to want Magnet Pull more.

    EDIT

    o.k yea what Shrang said pretty much
  13. Afti

    Afti

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    I'd be fine with Analytic being slashed for the Specs set, myself; functions similarly enough. Trade-off between utility and brute force.
  14. ginganinja

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    O.k

    QC had a chat we will slash Analytic on the Choice Specs set, and add an Analytic mention slash in Other Options (OO) for the Sub Charge Beam set. Would the OP please update the Specs Magnezone set onsite for this please.
  15. Afti

    Afti

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    A little wordy in the new paragraph noting the reasoning for Analytic. My apologies for that; not too good at being succinct.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Volt Switch
    move 2: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Flash Cannon
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Magnet Pull / Analytic
    nature: Modest
    evs: 148 HP / 252 SpA / 108 Spe



    [Set Comments]
    <p>Meet the closest thing to a special Choice Band Scizor there is. Volt Switch is the crux of this set, like U-Turn is for Choice Band Scizor, for its scouting ability as well as its raw power. What this set boasts over others is the immediate power offered by Choice Specs. Most Magnezone are Timid to get the jump on Adamant Scizor; however, using a Modest nature makes for an incredibly powerful special attacker, OHKOing standard Ferrothorn 100% of the time outside of rain, and almost always 2HKOing in rain. Other Magnezone struggle to damage the steel durian and even risk being stalled out with Leech Seed and Protect if they lack Substitute.</p>

    <p>Thunderbolt and Flash Cannon are almost afterthoughts. The former is extremely powerful and will make short work of almost anything that doesn’t resist it, but you’ll be mostly using Volt Switch and Hidden Power Fire. Flash Cannon is a moderately powerful STAB move that hits most of the Ground-types that block Volt Switch and Thunderbolt. 252 EVs are placed into Special Attack, as Magnezone needs all the power it can get, and 108 Speed EVs are used to outrun most variants of Skarmory, netting the 2HKO with virtually anything but Flash Cannon if Sturdy hasn’t been broken. The rest go into HP for extra bulk.</p>

    <p>Which of the abilities you use will depend largely on your team's specific needs. Magnet Pull allows Magnezone to trap Steels; however, this set is intended primarily as a powerful tank, not a trapper, and so Analytic is worth considering. With solid bulk, phenomenal power, and low Speed, Magnezone is a perfect user of Analytic; receiving what is essentially a free Life Orb boost for moving second allows it to turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs and many 2HKOs into OHKOs. With the high priority assigned to switching, Magnezone's Volt Switch can place a massive dent in what it doesn't outright eliminate before allowing a suitable teammate to take the field; its Thunderbolt or Thunder becomes a destructive force capable of eradicating most of the OU tier. If Analytic is used, an alternate EV spread of 204 HP / 252 SpA / 52 Spe is advised, allowing Magnezone to outrun and defeat standard Scizor while otherwise maximizing bulk and minimizing Speed. A spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA with a Quiet nature can also work.</p>

    [Additional Comments]
    <p>An alternate EV spread of 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe is usable, outrunning 8 Speed EV Scizor, as well as almost always surviving two turns of Choice Band Dragonite’s Outrage. In the same vein, a Timid nature and max Speed can be used, but you lose out on a significant amount of power; most importantly, Magnezone can't achieve the ever-important Ferrothorn KOs with a Timid nature. If you have a better answer to Ferrothorn than this set, then you can run Hidden Power Grass, Ice, or Ground instead of Fire. However, as the near-guaranteed removal of Ferrothorn is one of this set’s main draws, Fire is still the best option.</p>

    <p>If this Magnezone is used on a rain team, Thunder becomes the preferred option over Thunderbolt thanks to higher Base Power, higher paralysis chance, and perfect accuracy. In fact, Magnezone’s Thunder boasts similar power to Specs Latios’ Draco Meteor, 2HKOing specially defensive Jirachi and Heatran, two steels that Magnezone typically has trouble with. While the 2HKO on Heatran is nice, staying or switching in is not recommended, as Heatran 2HKOs with Fire Blast in the rain and always OHKOs with Earth Power.</p>
  16. jc104

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    I really think that the analytic set wants a different hidden power (grass or preferably ice) rather than fire. Even for the Magnet Pull version I don't think it's a poor choice or anything, so I'd quite like to see it slashed.
  17. Afti

    Afti

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    Yeah, that's in; had Ice for Analytic in the first place, just forgot to deal with that. hurr durr
  18. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    You should also clarify that Analytic is activated on switch-ins, too, unlike Payback.

    You can also illustrate its power by stating that its Analytic-boosted Volt Switch shaves off a quarter health from Blissey.

    You mention that Hidden Power Fire is the best option, but Analytic variants pulls off HP Ice just as well, scoring OHKOs on Dragonite with MultiScale intact.

    That's the main reason I dislike about Specs Analytic Magnezone, since it can't capitalize on Ferrothorn's presence without HP Fire, and that's not an ideal move to be locked into. HP Fire also doesn't mix well in Rain teams, which is where Magnezone can utilize Thunder to hit its hardest. Substitute Analytic Magnezone uses Ferrothorn as set-up bait, and it protects Magnezone from lethal hits to dish one extra Analytic-boosted hit. It also has Leftovers, which lets it capitalize in its bulk much better, and it wont forfeit offensive pressure when it uses an auxiliary move.

    I found Substitute & Leftovers to be more useful than Specs on Analytic Magnezone (with the latter you're pretty much forced to spam Volt Switch).
  19. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    The problem is that when you use Analytic, you cannot capitalise on Ferrothorn because you no longer have Magnet Pull. Sure, you can use Substitute, but without two or three Charge Beams, you can't hurt Ferrothorn much, and since you're using Analytic, your opponent can just switch Ferrothorn out. SubCharge really works when you have Magnet Pull because you trap Ferrothorn and set up on it.
  20. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Analytic Magnezone may wont capitalize on Ferrothorn as much as having Magnet Pull would, but it still does puts the opponent in a bad spot. The opponent must force switching out Ferrothorn and risk an Analytic-boosted STAB Thunder or a Magnezone with Substitute or keep Ferrothorn in and risk being Charge Beam set-up bait. More defensive-oriented teams may have an answer to Magnezone, but offensive teams would still not appreciate Magnezone taking advantage of Ferrothorn.

    But yea, I wont be arguing for that anymore. Just make the other changes so I can approve this and we can put this set to rest.
  21. PK Gaming

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    Good night

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