Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3

[Toshiro46]

i'm pretty sure we aren't ment to talk about potential bans here, but Landos going nowhere before Greninja at the very least, Baton Pass will probably be looked at too before anybody even thinks of suspecting Lando and even then why bother? its a great blanket mon and yes its omnipresent but nothing about it is broken, its not gonna eat your team alive for guessing the wrong set Like Meta, Phero or, in the case of something not banned, Gren.

Its just really really good, but not overcentralizing or stiffling or broken, so it won't get banned.

BP is* getting looked into rn I think.

BlisseyandChansey123

If you're talking about Lando-I like your second post suggests, it was banned this gen too because Sheer Force LO and it's got great coverage. I can't really say what changed after its ban, I wasn't playing then.

If you're talking about Lando-T? The tier would probably implode if it was banned.

 

[1234hjkl]

Yeah, Lando-T is basically the glue of OU. It keeps OU sane (to some extent), and the cool thing about it is that it counters itself (again, to some extent). It's not broken - it's a great blanket check and splashable mon that can be easily worn down for that very reason.

Greninja's fucking stupid. I'm talking protean; seriously, I can't even seem to make a decent build without going back and noticing that proninja completely breaks it apart. If BP were to get the boot, that's another thing going for it (but that's a hypothetical). The thing's coverage is impeccable & it's taken away from my fun of teambuilding now because I need to dedicate multiple mons to it. Scarf keldeo can get bopped by extrasensory on the switch, it can run dark pulse if it needs to due to the rise of bulky psychics, two coverage moves are enough to destroy a lot of defensive backbones nowadays, etc..

I apologize if I sounded like a whiny girl, but it's just not as enjoyable to play when a ton of builds seem to be easily exploited by a simple VoltTurn + Greninja core, lol

Well if you wanna a tip, try putting A-muk on your team. Protean hates the oil spill because unless its hax and freezes it A-muk shrugs off his attacks while dealing a sizeable damage on the frog. Anyway what are your opinions on hazards lately? I think even with all the people saying defog and spin are moment drainers they still are necessary, the metagame right now is so centralized about hazards its not uncommon to see people carrying two hazard setters, spinners are very limited with only exca and starmie with some viabilty but they are some viable defogers like Fini, M-Scizor, Zapdos, Skarmory, you could even use some offensive one like Latios or Kartana, its not a solution but its a alternative on a meta so full of hazards, anyway what are your opinions on them?

 

[1234hjkl]

Not sure what spread AV Muk runs (used it once early SM for Lele), but if it's like the one in the analysis, then it can only really switch it once with rocks up. After that, it's a 50/50 on whether ninja stays in & pumps or switches out on the pursuit. A bit shaky & too niche imo when it doesn't even fully check Lele, & if I want a pursuit user I find myself using Ttar regardless.

Hazards are annoying, especially with the lack of a good & reliable spinner/defogger (Excadrill & Lati twins in ORAS). However, the fact that a vast majority of people complain about them + new megas have been released has led to things like Mew, Zapdos (don't like running defog on this tho), Starmie, and so on gaining popularity. Hazards being so popular rn makes people have to run something to get rid of them, because realistically (depending on your build), a hazard stacking team is a pain in the ass to deal with, which has made them a bit easier to remove as of lately. But I guess that also shows that people have to run spinners/foggers so commonly now because hazards are broken? Not sure, kind of rhetorical lol


................then there's Greninja which can set hazards & beat every hazard remover.................

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 133-156 (32.1 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

240+ Atk Muk-Alola Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 85-102 (29.8 - 35.7%) -- 28.5% chance to 3HKO

Thats the old spread, the actual one has 132 on the atk evs and 120 on sp.def.

Say it dies to hydro which is a shaky move itself because of the miss and call it a day it's not a good argument, prediction goes both ways you can stay and do a second hydro and eat a knock off or poison jab and die from the recoil next turn, you could also get poisoned crippling even more the ninja, between that bulk , recoil and a possible miss ninja can't break unless through a shaky hydro, crit or a freeze and spikes ninja is not on a great match up since between set hazards or attack, you still kill it and defog or spin away. A-muk has only problem with specs lele since with hazards it's able to break through muk, but other sets still are handled well enough. I not saying it's ground-breaking just it's a good pick to handle some dangerous threats right now.

Also are others reliable spinners beyond starmie and exca ? The only other I can think are Tsareena and forretress and they are not good enough.

 

[Dakress]

To be fair with the whole "A-Muk can't check Protean Greninja as I would've liked" argument, please remember you're talking about a mon whose best check and counter (Assault Vest Magearna and Chansey) get's 3KOed by HP Fire & Gunk Shot.

 

[Subject 18]

On a slightly different discussion, I do want to talk about some of the metagame trends since Mega Metagross was banned.

Magearna's surge in popularity. We've all known how good Magearna is, but since metagross left the tier Magearna become more threatening with OTR sets, or even AV SpD sets. The AV SpD set is legit my favorite right now, if I'm not using OTR. With SpD AV you're able to consistently switch in and tank Specs Gengar, Specs/LO Greninja, or even Lele. It's always been really versatile, now a number of new sets have been popping up on occasion making it more of a threat. It's honestly amazing overall.

Pinsir is basically the best mega in the tier now. It's so hard to deal with considering there's only a handful of Flying resists in the tier. With the addition of Heracross in OU, Pinsir tends to eat those teams alive, as Heracross builds create a natural weakness to it to start with unless you are able to fit a Zapdos on the team. Though, it requires some support it is more than worth it with how effective and how easily it can rip teams apart if they don't like Zapdos or Celesteela.

Protean Greninja was something I thought would rise up and dominate the tier and be really broken, but I honestly don't think it is that bad right now. With AV SpD Magearna, Mantine, Tyranintar picking up in usage (who 1v1s it), Mew (as move don't carry Dark Pulse) becoming more popular, Greninja has a harder time breaking through teams. I get you can make the argument that Greninja can just switch its move to run HP Electric or Dark Pulse, but doing makes you lose out or more since you can pressure hazard setters like Ferrothorn or Defog users like Mega Scizor.

Latios is rising in popularity with it's Choice Specs Set being a great breaker without Metagross being around. I think Scarf Latios is pretty bad at the moment because of how much of a momentum suck it can be. Plus if you use Scarf Latios as your scarfer, you struggle with Volcarona. Generally speaking Scarfers are meh in this meta but Volcarona forces you to run specific ones to try to handle it. Outside of scarf Life Orb sets are okay if you need defog for your team, but I would prefer trying to find another source of control. However, Specs or LO Latios still can't break SpD AV Magearna so...

Last thing I wanted to address was Tapu Lele. Everyone clamored during the metagross test that it would broken or be ban worthy, but I've nothing of the sort. In fact it's probably struggling a bit more because of how much more popular Magearna, Mew, Celesteela and Tyranitar are becoming. Sure it's still a decent breaker, but it is no where near the broken threat that some people made it would to be. It also doesn't help there is a certain level of rise in dark types (Tyranitar and Weavile) that prevent it from killing something and being locked Psychic/Shock. (so basically what Gary said in the VR and I can't think of anything else original because I'm bad)

 

[Subject 18]

Out of curiosity, what hazard remover do you pair with Pinsir? Pinsir also appreciates spikes so not sure if you're going the hazard stacking way or the defogging way - I'm assuming Excadrill and Fini are the best for those, respectively.

I've used Mew most of the time. Fini can work, but I don't really like using Fini unless I absolutely have to, it's not really that great of a Pokemon and the meta has been really unkind to it. Yet for some reason it's usage ladder usage is absurdly high, I don't really understand. Spikes are cool and all, but that means I have to use a spinner and I hate every spinner since they are all really bad. Excadrill just invites Landorus-T and is basically set up fodder for it. I wouldn't every consider Starmie, Forretress, or whatever else. In short, you are better off using Defog in almost every scenario because it's vastly superior and more reliable.

 

[1234hjkl]

I've used Mew most of the time. Fini can work, but I don't really like using Fini unless I absolutely have to, it's not really that great of a Pokemon and the meta has been really unkind to it. Yet for some reason it's usage ladder usage is absurdly high, I don't really understand. Spikes are cool and all, but that means I have to use a spinner and I hate every spinner since they are all really bad. Excadrill just invites Landorus-T and is basically set up fodder for it. I wouldn't every consider Starmie, Forretress, or whatever else. In short, you are better off using Defog in almost every scenario because it's vastly superior and more reliable.

Adding on that defog not being blocked by ghost types like rapid spin is a good point for it, Bisharp and Thundurus are the only users of Defiant but the meta is a little unkind to them so defog in my opinion is the better choice.

 

[The Loog Noog]

Spikes are cool and all, but that means I have to use a spinner and I hate every spinner since they are all really bad. Excadrill just invites Landorus-T and is basically set up fodder for it. I wouldn't every consider Starmie, Forretress, or whatever else.

I think that you're severely underestimating Starmie when you saying that all the spinners in the tier are really bad. It's easily the best spinner in the metagame and a viable option for hyper offensive teams. Unlike Excadrill, Starmie can threaten out Pokemon like Garchomp and Landorus-T that are setting Stealth Rock in the first place and can do a better job threatening offensive teams in general with Analytic boosted Hydro Pumps + its coverage moves and all the other spinners in the game are like legit unviable. One thing I don’t understand is that a lot of people say that Greninja is often a better choice for a specially offensive Water-type, but you can just as easily run both Greninja and Starmie on the same team. Spikes Ash Greinja + Starmie puts insane strain on the opposing team's primary water resist and can result in your opponent being overwhelmed with the offensive pressure. Additionally, Protean Greninja can be used to help vs normal Starmie answers with its insane versatility with options such as max attack Gunk Shot for pressuring Chansey harder or Hidden Power Fire to outright OHKO Ferrothorn. Obviously these two together are gonna provide issues with defensive synergy, but hyper offensive teams don’t need to be as defensively solid vs opposing offensive threats because they can apply offensive pressure to deal with them. Having something like Scarf Garchomp to check Tapu Koko along with 1-2 mons that can take a hit and OHKO in return is perfectly fine in terms of counterplay and makes the defensive issues that come with running double offensive waters a lot less noticeable. Obviously Starmie isn’t AMAZING by any means, but it’s definitely underrated and more than worth considering for spikes-stacking HO.

 

[Toshiro46]

Calling Starmie the best spinner is saying nothing. Excadrill loses to just about every hazard setter and all the others are pretty much trashmons. Starmie isn't much better.

 

[BlisseyandChansey123]

I am not very sure about that. Starmie has a very high base speeed of 110, outspeeding almost every stealth rock setter and spike setter in the tier. Starmie isn't also harmless, and can 1Hit KO common stealth rock users.
0 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 338-398 (93.3 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO(without special attack investment with Analytic)
0 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 288-338 (90.2 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO(with Analytic)
Defensively,
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 222-262 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(222, 225, 228, 231, 232, 235, 238, 241, 243, 246, 249, 252, 253, 256, 259, 262) (Starmie will still win because of its faster speed)
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 192-226 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(192, 193, 196, 198, 201, 202, 205, 207, 210, 211, 214, 216, 219, 220, 223, 226) (Once again, starmie will win because it is faster)

Because of this, starmie is a very reliable rapid spinner and isn't bad defensively either. Starmie is very fast, and can tank at least 1 hit before dying. It is much better that all the other spinners, who are slower than most offensive pokemon, little offensive presence, etc. Starmie is BEST spinner in the tier, we can't deny that.(ALthough it is true that defog is the vastly superior option)

My only issue about defog is that it also removes hazards from the ENEMY'S side, which is not desired. There are only few good ghosts types(that are commonly used) in the OU(Alolan Marowak, Mega Sablelye, etc), so blocking rapid spin isn't that big of an issue(in the OU anyways. Ubers has Mega Gengar, making spinners unreliable and defog much better)

In conclusion, Starmie IS severely underated and IS the best spinner in the tier(far ahead from the rest). "Starmie isn't much better" is a bit inacurrate. "Starmie is better" sounds more accurate to me.

 

[bludz]

While yes I do think Starmie is better than Excadrill at spinning in most circumstances, it's still not that good at being a hazard remover. It has a reasonable but not particularly amazing matchup with Stealth Rockers (it can spin against Lando etc, but cannot switch into most of them very well), but it has quite bad matchups against the two most common spikers, Ferrothorn and Greninja.

It's true that Defog removes your own hazards too. But Defog has a wider distribution and can be found on better pokemon such as Mew, Zapdos, Mega Scizor, and Mantine (which to the above post all have reliable recovery). Starmie is simply not that good in the metagame at all, whereas Excadrill at least has more redeeming qualities even if its actual role of removing hazards is more limited. Furthermore, Excadrill becomes much faster than Starmie under Sand, and is also far more threatening so it forces switches getting free spins off more easily.

The last point is really just that Defog is more consistent. Ghost types are far more common in OU this generation than the last. Gengar, Marowak, Sableye, and Mimikyu all see reasonable usage. Maybe they die by having to spinblock, but then you bring out a threat that prevents a spin, so the spin is still ultimately blocked. BTW, Excadrill has a better matchup against these for the most part, especially Mold Breaker sets. I would also note that there are some things that psuedo spinblock Starmie such as Bisharp and Mawile's Sucker Punch. There is also of course just the opportunity cost of using Starmie, because it just isn't good.

tl;dr: arguing over what's the best spinner isn't really that important. Defog is a lot better, because both spinners in OU aren't that good.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

Does anyone else find it near impossible to construct a team that deals with stall, bp, and webs at the same time while still not getting blown up by more convential teams? Im being forced to run stupid shit like haze fini to try to circumvent losing straight up to bp without making my team ass against other stuff. Taunt is actually useless vs bp via espeon and all it takes is one wrong read and you lose. Its super frustrating. Like webs/stall at least the counterplay is found on decent sets like magnet koko and shed lele that can fit on teams and actually get work done not playing the mu they are designed to counter. But its like either you have the out with bp or you dont. And it wasnt too much of a issue at lower ladder but for whatever reason the 1600-1800 range is filled with these trash bp players :/

Tldr; anyone who have sucess with making solid teams against all the playstyles? I didnt say beat because thats not entirely feasible but I could make teams in oras that could outplay anything by the end of the meta

 

[Leo]

Does anyone else find it near impossible to construct a team that deals with stall, bp, and webs at the same time while still not getting blown up by more convential teams? Im being forced to run stupid shit like haze fini to try to circumvent losing straight up to bp without making my team ass against other stuff. Taunt is actually useless vs bp via espeon and all it takes is one wrong read and you lose. Its super frustrating. Like webs/stall at least the counterplay is found on decent sets like magnet koko and shed lele that can fit on teams and actually get work done not playing the mu they are designed to counter. But its like either you have the out with bp or you dont. And it wasnt too much of a issue at lower ladder but for whatever reason the 1600-1800 range is filled with these trash bp players :/

Tldr; anyone who have sucess with making solid teams against all the playstyles? I didnt say beat because thats not entirely feasible but I could make teams in oras that could outplay anything by the end of the meta

I usually focus on the Offence and Stall matchup and try to have a solid gameplan vs webs. Getting a good bp matchup is almost impossible without straight cteaming although 90% of the bp users at the 1700-1800 range where I usually play use either the Drud rmt or robopokes rmt so its pretty easy to beat, I havent lost to bp since the last time I encountered ben gay bp and Ive been getting a lot of bp lol

 

[Callmeyeshua]

I usually focus on the Offence and Stall matchup and try to have a solid gameplan vs webs. Getting a good bp matchup is almost impossible without straight cteaming although 90% of the bp users at the 1700-1800 range where I usually play use either the Drud rmt or robopokes rmt so its pretty easy to beat, I havent lost to bp since the last time I encountered ben gay bp and Ive been getting a lot of bp lol

I barely lose to bp but thats becUase I actively build not to lol. But itd be an immense lift of building strain to not have to. Hopefully the ou council gets rid of it. Were pretty close to a playable meta now lol

 

[Mur]

Does anyone else find it near impossible to construct a team that deals with stall, bp, and webs at the same time while still not getting blown up by more convential teams? Im being forced to run stupid shit like haze fini to try to circumvent losing straight up to bp without making my team ass against other stuff. Taunt is actually useless vs bp via espeon and all it takes is one wrong read and you lose. Its super frustrating. Like webs/stall at least the counterplay is found on decent sets like magnet koko and shed lele that can fit on teams and actually get work done not playing the mu they are designed to counter. But its like either you have the out with bp or you dont. And it wasnt too much of a issue at lower ladder but for whatever reason the 1600-1800 range is filled with these trash bp players :/

Tldr; anyone who have sucess with making solid teams against all the playstyles? I didnt say beat because thats not entirely feasible but I could make teams in oras that could outplay anything by the end of the meta

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-in-sm-ou.3604290/ <-- bp has been discussed for the past week or so in policy review. I wouldn't worry too much since it is certainly going to be taken care of before World Cup starts, which is going to be within the next few weeks.

To make this post something of substance I'll weigh in on the starmie/hazard remover convo that's been going on for a bit. Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with my bug avi bro bludz on this one. Although spinning is objectively better than defogging, the two "best" spinners are either countered by a ton of the common setters (excadrill) or just lose a ton of momentum/utility from giving up some other move (starmie). I'll focus specifically on starmie since exca is just god awful in this meta and I've honestly only ever built one team where i felt that exca fulfilled the niche that I needed, and that is also a team that I wouldn't bring to a serious game lol.

I'm referring to the life orb/water-z set w/ spin in this post as it's really the only reason to use it. The problem with starmie is that, in order to keep the hazards off, you want to be able to pressure as many setters as possible which is difficult to accomplish due to a classic case of 4mss. I honesty believe 4mss kind of doesn't exist as much as people say on certain mons, simply because all move set choices are based off of the team's needs more so than the meta itself, but holy fuck starmie has this shit BAD lol. The niche it has over gren is that it has that similar insane coverage and can check, or counter, scarf keld(as well as spinning of course). However in order to consistently keep keld, and other waters mie can check, at bay you need recover, which means you only have two slots left for offensive moves and one of them has to be able to do something to said waters. This just leaves mie way way too open to giving in free switch ins to a lot of mons in the meta with this lack of coverage. The biggest problem that arises is that ferro, one of the most common defensive pivots and hazard setters atm for the more common builds, can switch in freely and set the hazards back up, OR you run hp fire and now can't even touch keldeo lol. I honestly feel like starmie may have a better niche in using a 3 atk + recover or AoA set as an alternative for gren if you need that offensive, fast water, but also need a strong check to scarf keld (and most variants of protean gren since most do not have dark pulse, but gunk does like 83 max so lmao, you can still soft check it if healthy tho and fire off an analytic boosted attack). Sad that the best spinner in the meta may have sets that are better without having spin lol...

This is basically why I feel that starmie is really only viable on more offensive teams. It's just easier to drop recover and just abuse it's coverage, saving the spin for crucial points in the game when hazards absolutely need to be removed. The loss of recover isn't toooo bad (still kinda sucks tho see next sentence) on faster paced teams compared to just about any other build since you're gonna rely on offensive pressure to handle threats, rather than having a switch in for everything. The loss of recover is ass though regardless since having a mon that completely counters scarf keld on offense would be lit, but whatever consistent hazard removal is so hard to come by that you kinda have to work with what you have.

Unsurprisingly, Starmie experiences similar issues to spikes gren in this meta where ,a lot of times, you would just rather have an extra coverage move to smack damn near the entire tier with their amazing coverage + speed. Both can also be pressured to do their jobs (spiking/spinning) because of their frailty in certain scenarios as well which is also annoying af, but hey at least when gren gets spikes up there's a better chance they'll stay up as opposed to starmie keeping them off lol. Anyways, I honestly would just use a defogger 99% of the time especially now with the increase of mew and zapdos usage(altho 3 atk + roost zap is very dirty and far better than defog). Starmie is, again, honestly only useful on more offensively oriented builds where you only need to spin like once in the late/mid game for volc or something. In doing this you can fully abuse mie's coverage + analytic by predicting around the opponents responses to the "obvious" spin. The recover + 2 atk set can be used on certain builds where letting in whatever can come into your coverage isn't that big of a deal, but I don't think this is a niche that will be too common and is generally just a momentum drain.

As for other spinners, the only one that I can even see doing anything is forre, but it does not look too appealing at first glance :/ Haven't used it or even thought about using it so maybe it's a hidden gem (Most definitely is garbage though lmao).

Edit: Also can echo S18 here and say that Pinsir is a god abuse that boi

 

[Super Muchacho]

I want to bring up something that bothers me since i started serious laddering again. Since i started a few days ago about 10 of these exact same team builds occured: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-582326175
The more, the higher i get. This team is extremeley strong and almost insurmountable. One big issue specificly is the Sableye Duggi Combo which was a controversial discussion last gen. We all know the result. I think with Toxapex, the missing of MMeta, MPunny and MAltaria brings this thing to a whole new level.
The one problem i see is the limitation to teambuilding. I carry Lele in every team just to check chansey+sableye. Also Medicham is in almost every team, just because there is almost no viable check that doesnt need setup for the teammates of sableye. The problems are not the pokemon alone, its how they are abused together. Sableye prevents Hazards & Status, which even if they get through, get removed by chansey and skarmory, which both just eat physical and special attacks. Set up gets hazed (or unawared) and of course all pokemon have healing moves which makes switching a lot your disadvantage. Not forgetting that you can get trapped if you break through something. Lecture me if i miss something, but the only viable answers to this team are limited to lele,CB bulu, Medicham, Dugtrio, zygarde, mawile and zard. You need 2 of 4+1 of the megas to have answers that are viable in general. Its very few imo. Everything else is very specific or loses to other teams.
Also i think aside from building such a team, which is already done, there are very few moments when you need to show skill. You just switch safe around, recover here and there and status if theres an opportunity and wait for you opponent to make a mistake or overpredict. And of course, in that example i won. But just because he made a mistake. In high ladder, if it hasnt changed, people play perfect. If there are some (current) high ladder player reading this, please freel free to explain how such an occurrence passes.
The last point is simply the fun. Noone has fun if he must play 100+ turns with no progress. Also your win chances will probably get lower with the time. But on the other hand i cant judge people who use this stall team (even if i do). Winning is fun to and i dont expect people to use not the strongest possible team. However share your thoughts and ideas. I also apreciate statements of the tiering council

Have a nice day

 

[Toshiro46]

RIP Baton Pass 1999-2017

In terms of effects on the meta:

Several mons' viability will tank/go down due to this. Some will go unranked, no doubt. Manaphy, for example, will have to survive on its z-rain dance set now.

That's another huge stress on team building removed, specifically in regards to countermeasures against set up sweepers.

 

[Reviloja753]

As Baton Pass has a somewhat good chance of being banned from OU (every person on the thread agrees iirc) I would like to talk about how this would effect the metagame.

Scolipede
Oh Scolipede- the king of BP. Without its main niche, Scolipede will likely drop off of the face of the earth in terms of being viable in OU, at least compared to its role right now. It might still have a niche, being the only SpeedSweeper (a sweeper that gets speed boost) with Sub and SD, but it will likely drop down to at least BL if UU finds it too much. In terms of VR, I can see this thing dropping to something like C+ at best.

Shedinja
The fate of DryPass has yet to be seen, but if banned, Shedinja is going to take a hit. Right now, it is only seen on stall paired up with Duggy. Shed usually uses BP into Duggy, trapping the foe. It then hard switches back into Shed. It effectively uses two PP for each BP. Without Baton Pass, ShedStall will be a lot harder to pull off. Rank-wise, I can see C- or UR.

Espeon
Arguably the best receiver for ScoliPass, Espeon is going to completely disappear from OU, even more so than Scolipede. It is already in RU, so it won't drop in tier, but it will essentially never be seen again. Heck, I'm willing to bet it will be UR if BP gets banned (which it likely will be).

All in all, the metagame is headed towards a huge shift if Baton Pass is banned.

P.S: As for the other receivers and users, they will likely be as good as before, with the exception of Chesnaught, who will also drop off the face of the earth.

Just bumping this, as BP got banned. Just know that I didn't know of the offensive set and believe it will drop but it will hang on in the VR. I still think it will drop to UU in usage soon though.

 

[Marzbar]

I'm sorry, but once again a poor decision has been made to outright ban something that didn't need banning. What about Wish-Passing, to allow something to switch in without taking a hit? Was that strategy in need of removing from the game?

Apparently so.

The fear of what some deem "complex bans" is preventing the council from making rational decisions.

 

[Martin]

Compex bans are retarded; DrizzleSwim was a mistake; BP clause was a mistake; that is all.

I'm sorry, but once again a poor decision has been made to outright ban something that didn't need banning. What about Wish-Passing, to allow something to switch in without taking a hit? Was that strategy in need of removing from the game?

Apparently so.

The fear of what some deem "complex bans" is preventing the council from making rational decisions.

Name one relevant Pokemon that actually uses Wish+BP on the same set.

Also, there is no "what some deem to be" in this: they are complex by definition; to be complex means to be made up of more than one part, which BP clause was. More specifically, it was made up of four parts:

1. Baton Pass cannot be used...
2. but only if its user has the means to boost Speed...
3. alongside one or more other stats...
4. or if another Pokemon on the same team carries the move.

Bans like this are not desirable in the slightest because they just set really bad precedents (if we allow BP under conditions X, Y, or Z, it opens a can of worms for stuff like Blaze Blaziken and XY Torrent Gren; I hate DrizzleSwim (well... I guess it's WeatherSpeed now) in BW for exactly the same reason) and create inconsistency within the banlist, which not only sacrifices integrity but also makes it more confusing for a new player. If I were a new player and I saw that monstrosity, I would most certainly taken for a loop because it's a lot to absorb for the sake of one move (and one which has very little relevance outside of a near-skilless strategy, for that matter). The decision the OU council made was the right one, and comments like this show a blatant misunderstanding of why Smogon avoids complex bans wherever possible.

===================

Anyway, so that this post isn't completely useless, I'm really liking Gastrodon atm just 'cause it is one of a small handful of Pokemon which shuts down both Greninjas consistently without opening up a hole vs. Tapu Koko, which is honestly really big when Greninja is so fucking popular. I don't like Curse on it at all in a meta where you really need Toxic to not be complete bait for AV Tangrowth, and I'd only ever consider running max HP/SpD on it to maximise consistency versus Pokemon like Ash Gren, but honestly it just feels really nice for its ability to blanket waters really efficiently, and I'm finding myself running it more and more.

One other thing I'd like to make note of is that Specs Keldeo is totally a sleeper threat and I have no idea why noone's using it outside of not being able to run Scarf (which is less relevant now that people are starting to run Charti on Volcarona, thus rendering it unable to net the RK consistently outside of being paired with secondary priority users). A lot of people are relying on stuff like AV Tang as their Keldeo/Ash Gren checks, and it just drops to Specs Keld and, concequently, a lot of teams struggle with it short of bringing 'mons like Toxapex or Mantine, both of which drop to HP Electric.

 

[dk]

I'm sorry, but once again a poor decision has been made to outright ban something that didn't need banning. What about Wish-Passing, to allow something to switch in without taking a hit? Was that strategy in need of removing from the game?

Apparently so.

The fear of what some deem "complex bans" is preventing the council from making rational decisions.

yo, what? do you know how wish passing works? you wish on a turn, then switch out on the following one into the thing you want to heal. it has absolutely nothing to do with the move baton pass.

complex bans are complete garbage for two major reasons:

a) elegance related reasons (complex bans look horrible on paper because of their contrived intricacies)
b) the slippery slope

complex bans would be insanely annoying to remember if they were constantly used. pheromosa, which was deemed broken because of its special sets, was banned as a mon entirely. imagine how clunky and gross looking a complex ban for pheromosa would be if it addressed only quiver dance and specs (ie, only pheromosa using quiver dance or specs was banned).

ok, now lets move onto mega metagross. was agility metagross broken? i don't think so, because agility cut into its coverage significantly and it required a fair amount of support to operate decently. if the council were complex ban-happy, would they just ban running four attacks on metagross? would they ban specific combinations of moves you can run on metagross?

do you really want to have to deal with remembering 10 million different complex bans for pretty minimal (if not completely nonexistent) gains?

imagine trying to build a team a year from now if complex bans were a frequent practice:

hmm, i think offensive landorus fits here. ah, shoot, the council banned fly + flyinium and stone edge + rockium--gotta remember that.

ok, i think i want to use protean greninja here. oh, darn, gotta remember i can't run gunk shot on it! rats.

man, i haven't used pheromosa in a while. just gotta remember quiver dance is not permitted on it and specs + pheromosa can't be used!

oh, golly, i've been itching to use medicham lately. damn shame the council banned medicham + tapu koko on the same team...

 

[Gary]

This is not the place to bitch about Smogon policy. If you have a complaint, cry to a council member, don't derail the thread.

 

[Jasper]

yo, what? do you know how wish passing works? you wish on a turn, then switch out on the following one into the thing you want to heal. it has absolutely nothing to do with the move baton pass.

complex bans are complete garbage for two major reasons:

a) elegance related reasons (complex bans look horrible on paper because of their contrived intricacies)
b) the slippery slope

complex bans would be insanely annoying to remember if they were constantly used. pheromosa, which was deemed broken because of its special sets, was banned as a mon entirely. imagine how clunky and gross looking a complex ban for pheromosa would be if it addressed only quiver dance and specs (ie, only pheromosa using quiver dance or specs was banned).

ok, now lets move onto mega metagross. was agility metagross broken? i don't think so, because agility cut into its coverage significantly and it required a fair amount of support to operate decently. if the council were complex ban-happy, would they just ban running four attacks on metagross? would they ban specific combinations of moves you can run on metagross?

do you really want to have to deal with remembering 10 million different complex bans for pretty minimal (if not completely nonexistent) gains?

imagine trying to build a team a year from now if complex bans were a frequent practice:

hmm, i think offensive landorus fits here. ah, shoot, the council banned fly + flyinium and stone edge + rockium--gotta remember that.

ok, i think i want to use protean greninja here. oh, darn, gotta remember i can't run gunk shot on it! rats.

man, i haven't used pheromosa in a while. just gotta remember quiver dance is not permitted on it and specs + pheromosa can't be used!

oh, golly, i've been itching to use medicham lately. damn shame the council banned medicham + tapu koko on the same team...

As to not derail discussion, this will be my only post in this thread regarding the BP ban. Nonetheless, I think it's important to highlight that the slippery slope argument, as used both in your post and this one (beneath "Why ban baton pass rather...") by TDK, is a logical fallacy. This succinctly explains the fallacy of this argument.

Moving forward, I think the OU council (or any Smogon tiering body) should take care to employ sound arguments when justifying a policy. When any authority supports their decisions with fallacious logic, it undermines their credibility.

 

[Sun King]

Lel watch the next suspect test have like 40 fewer voters because people actually have to make teams...

Speaking of the actual meta right now, if you subtract the mons that were on BP, I don't really expect much to change. BP was always a sickness in the meta since Dennis' team rocked XY. Its members might as well have had a separate list for Viability Rankings because they always existed sort of regardless of the metagame; you just needed members to not be KO'd by the power creep, which we more or less curb to an extent upon which BP could always rely. So I'm happy with the council for finally pulling the plug on BP, as it was an abhorrent complex ban to begin with.

I'm finding Heracross to be fitting in decently well; while it can't abuse Speed boost from BP, it still is bulky and absurdly strong. I think in terms of tiering, we still need to seriously address the hazards problem; there aren't any GOOD removal strategies that don't instantly waste momentum, and the meta is stagnating because of the things that are guaranteed to punish hazard removal. Banning BP wasn't so much a step in the right direction but rather a responsibility that should never have been ignored in the first place because it was blatantly uncompetitive (it did not require ANY skill to use, which is contra-Smogon philosophy). Hoping to see the next tiering action address hazards because the metagame will stop evolving if hazards continue to rule the tier.

 

[Reviloja753]

Lel watch the next suspect test have like 40 fewer voters because people actually have to make teams...

Speaking of the actual meta right now, if you subtract the mons that were on BP, I don't really expect much to change. BP was always a sickness in the meta since Dennis' team rocked XY. Its members might as well have had a separate list for Viability Rankings because they always existed sort of regardless of the metagame; you just needed members to not be KO'd by the power creep, which we more or less curb to an extent upon which BP could always rely. So I'm happy with the council for finally pulling the plug on BP, as it was an abhorrent complex ban to begin with.

I'm finding Heracross to be fitting in decently well; while it can't abuse Speed boost from BP, it still is bulky and absurdly strong. I think in terms of tiering, we still need to seriously address the hazards problem; there aren't any GOOD removal strategies that don't instantly waste momentum, and the meta is stagnating because of the things that are guaranteed to punish hazard removal. Banning BP wasn't so much a step in the right direction but rather a responsibility that should never have been ignored in the first place because it was blatantly uncompetitive (it did not require ANY skill to use, which is contra-Smogon philosophy). Hoping to see the next tiering action address hazards because the metagame will stop evolving if hazards continue to rule the tier.

What? Are you suggesting we ban SR? Cause that's what this thread is saying to me. There are still plenty of Defoggers in the tier, like the rising stars Mew and Zapdos. Banning SR would look really bad to outsiders, as the prevalence of hazards isn't because it is inherently broken. Not much changed this generation other than spinners got worse. Banning any hazard would essentially prove certain YouTubers points. cough cough Verlisify

Honestly, hazards aren't exactly unhealthy or anything. Yeah they do chip and ruin Volc, but the meta is adapting. Mew is on the rise and so is Zapdos. Heck, MSciz is a decent defogger!