Mienshao (Analysis) [QC 0/2]

#1
this is my first time doing this so I require feedback on my choices and presentation


Also, mind my spelling (it's the way English is in my country) so if you wish to change some words, feel free.



Mienshao
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/620.shtml


[Overview]

<p>Mienshao is a basic mixed sweeper, a great base attack of 125, an above average special attack of 95, and a blistering speed of 105. Along with frail defences of 60 each, its move pool is shallow carrying a shallow range of move types and a few odds and ends that do not cover everything unlike many fighting type sweepers. However, like most fighting types, Mienshao has something that separates it among the pack, the ability Regenerator which means you can heal off nasty accumulated damage.</p>

[SET]
name: All Out Attacker
move 1: Hi Jump Kick
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Hidden Power (ice)
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
ability: Regenerator
EVs: 160 Atk / 96 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Hi Jump Kick is a given with its 130 base power and stab while Fake Out can give a good free hit. U-turn is the glory of this set as it allows you to switch out, not take damage and be healed by Regenerator which will heal the Life Orb recoil and entry hazard damage. Even with 160 attack EVs, Mienshao's High Jump Kick does slightly more damage than Swords Dance Lucario's Close Combat!</p>

<p>Mienshao's High Jump Kick on Hippowdon: 41.4% - 48.8%</p>

<p>Adamant Lucario's Close Combat on Hippowdon: 41% - 48.6%</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The special attack EVs are to guarantee Gliscor's bane through the use of Hidden Power. Odd HP IVs are mandatory so that it has an odd number of HP allowing it to take recoil from 2 Hi Jump Kicks and still stand. A Focus Sash is considerable as Mienshao usually goes down after one hit but the Life Orb is preferred.</p>

<p>Only fools use this set to sweep. Its purposes are sweeper support, scouting out similar checks to other Fighting types, luring out Gliscor and finishing it off, and weakening Hippowdon and the like with Hi Jump Kick and U-turn. The one problem with this set is that unlike all of the other sets, it does not utilize Fake Out.</p>

[SET]
name: Physical Attacker
move 1: Hi Jump Kick
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Fake Out
move 4: Taunt/Stone Edge
item: Life Orb/Focus Sash
nature: Jolly/Adamant
ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is the same as the All Out Attacker, the only difference is that you are using maximum attack. Fake Out is always annoying and is a given as Mienshao switches out a lot.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Adamant nature increases your attack and is preferred if you want to land stronger hits but considering Mienshao's low defences, it makes it more vulnerable to faster opponents. Jolly nature increases your speed which will allow you to attack before more foes however the power of your attacks decreases and it might leave you vulnerable. Taunt allows Mienshao stop bulky threats however Stone Edge covers a lot that Hi Jump Kick and U-turn cannot. Like Hasty nature in the All Out Attacker set, the special defence EVs are for Download users as most of them want to boost their special attack. A Focus Sash is an idea but Life Orb is preferred.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Hi Jump Kick
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Fake Out
item: Choice Scarf/Choice Band
nature: Jolly/Adamant
ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Everything that needs to be said is in the Anti-Lead set, as the moves are self-explanatory. Jolly nature tends to work best with the Choice Band while Adamant nature tends to work best with the Choice Scarf. The Choice Band brands are good for hitting hard while the Choice Scarf brands are good for picking off the foe's remaining health.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Again, everything that needs to be said is in the Anti-Lead set. Fake Out might be a one turn free hit but it helps a lot.</p>

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Hi Jump Kick
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Fake Out
move 4: Stone Edge/Me First
item: Focus Sash/Life Orb
nature: Jolly/Naive
ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Everything has been said already again. Since U-turn makes you switch out, it is not used on this set. Swords Dance will send your attack sky high and you need to strike first desperately for this set so Adamant nature is not necessary. Regenerator is preferred as it allows the Focus Sash to actually work.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Again, it has been said and done. Me First can be used over Stone Edge as it gives you strike first and it is good for destroying some parts of the competition (this is also the reason behind the special attack EVs and the slashed Naive nature). You could use a Life Orb but it is really risky</p>


[SET]
name: Physical Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Bulk Up / Swords Dance / Work Up / Substitute
move 3: Stone Edge / Fake Out / Substitute
move 4: Hi Jump Kick
item: Focus Sash / Leftovers
nature: Jolly
ability: Regenerator
EVs: 8 HP / 248 Atk / 252 Spe
IVs: 31 HP

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Just because Mienshao has 4 different Baton Pass sets, that does not mean it is not outclassed. Despite that, it is one of the best offensive Baton Pass users in the game. With 31 HP IVs and 8 HP EVs, Mienshao has magic Leftovers recovery, can regenerate an exact third of its health and make 4 Substitutes. Hi Jump Kick, Baton Pass and max speed are givens. Fake Out works well with all of the switching but Stone Edge is greatly preferred. Focus Sash is to make sure you successfully pass a stat boost. Jolly nature explains itself.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Take your pick on what to Baton Pass and consider your teammates with what you choose. The choices are self explanatory as they all (except Substitute) boost attack. You could also sacrifice your second attacking move for Substitute but it is usually not worth it. Only use Leftovers if you use Substitute as there is no other purpose.</p>

[SET]
name: Special Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Calm Mind / Work Up / Substitute
move 3: Hidden Power (ice) / Substitute
move 4: Aura Sphere
item: Focus Sash / Leftovers
nature: Timid
ability: Regenerator
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 31 HP

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The Physical Baton Pass says everything that about this set.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Again, the Physical Baton Pass says everything that about this set. Do not let this seemingly weaker set fool you, as it can accomplish what the All Out Attacker set can do in a way. Stealth Rock support is mandatory since it allows the defeat of an Impish Gliscor with 252 HP IVs and 0 special defence IVs who has just taken Stealth Rock damage (that has not been healed) with Hidden Power.</p>


[SET]
name: Substitute Mixed Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Hidden Power (ice)
move 4: Hi Jump Kick
item: Leftovers
nature: Naive
ability: Regenerator
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 31 HP

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Yet again, the Physical Baton Pass says everything that about this set.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>And yet again, the Physical Baton Pass says everything that about this set. Like the Special Baton pass set, it functions somewhat like the All Out Attacker set and accomplishes that with the special attack EVs and Stealth Rock support is mandatory here too.</p>

[SET]
name: Work Up Mixed Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Work Up
move 3: Hidden Power (ice)
move 4: Hi Jump Kick
item: Focus Sash
nature: Naive
ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>A variation of the Mixed Baton Pass above.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Works the same way as the non-Substitute Baton Pass sets. The only difference is that after a Work Up, you are able to the Gliscor mentioned above without any special attack EVs.</p>

[Teammates]

<p>Mienshao will become a train wreck if it is burned or paralyzed so a teammate with Heal Bell or Aromatherapy is a wise selection. Slowing down the foe with Thunder Wave is much appreciated. Cleric Blissey fits these roles well. Dark types are also very helpful as they resist psychic and ghost type moves and Mienshao can take bug type moves aimed at them.</p>

<p>Mienshao does not mind entry hazards unless the Swords Dance or one of the Baton Pass sets are used. In general, it still hates Toxic Spikes and appreciates entry hazards itself and Forretress is capable of setting them up and using Rapid Spin. Knowing that nobody appreciates entry hazards, a ghost type is advisable to block Rapid Spin. Stealth Rock support is mandatory on any set that utilities Hidden Power ice.</p>

<p>Weather is another big issue for the Swords Dance set so Ninetails and Politoed make great teammates.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Rock Slide can be used over Stone Edge if accuracy bugs you but the drop in power is really crucial. Dig is the only ground move Mienshao gets but it gives the foe a free turn however the Power Herb allows you to strike immediately but it is one use and the lack of a Life Orb or a Choice item hurts a lot.Me First can be slapped onto any set but only if you change the nature so it hiders one of the defences. Payback is also an option however Stone Edge does as much damage as a super effective Payback. Poison Jab is also available but it is not that great.</p>

<p>Flying moves can help a lot from time to time. Ariel Ace is also available to take out odd ones like Heracross and those who rely on evasion but the lack in power and coverage makes it unfavourable. Acrobatics works similar to Ariel Ace however to gain reasonable power, Mienshao must not be holding any item. Bounce is also available but it can be put into the same boat as Dig.</p>

<p>As far as fighting moves go, Low Kick is an interesting idea. Force Palm can paralyze the opponent slowing it down but paralysis is not Mienshao's job, then there is the fact that it is based on luck and finally the lack of power. Jump kick has more accuracy but not by much (by 5%), again less power (by 30) is unfavourable, and the recoil is still 50% of your maximum HP. Drain Punch can be used to heal more and even works well with High Jump Kick to sap the foe of their remaining HP. Still, Drain Punch has little power and takes up a move-slot. A Reversal set is possible utilizing the mould of the Swords Dance set, you could even use Substitute and a Salac Berry to aid. The problem is that the ever so common priority moves are going to put an end to it.</p>

<p>Other special attack moves include other Hidden Power, Grass Knot and/or Aura Sphere. If you do choose to use a mixed set, Work Up can be used to boost both attack and special attack. Wide Lens raises accuracy if you are that worried about Hi Jump Kick missing but yet again, the loss of the Life Orb will hampers Mienshao.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Mienshao's greatest weakness is its frailty therefore priority moves work great against it. Gravity stops Hi Jump Kick.</p>

<p>Cloyster might seem like an odd choice but it works well as it carries high defence, can lay out entry hazards, remove entry hazards and is a master of utilizing multiple hit moves because of its Skill Link ability. On top of that, after a Jolly Cloyster uses Shell Break, it can outrun a Jolly Choice Scarf Mienshao (which are not common to begin with). Conkeldurr works too, it has a lot of HP, defence and attack and it can easily finish off Mienshao with Mach Punch.</p>

<p>Ghost types are resistant to both Fake Out and Hi Jump Kick so they are obvious counters. Gengar is a great counter, it has higher speed, and there are variants that carry Choice Scarf every now and then. Then there are your defensive ghost types that can burn the foe like Dusclops and Cofagrigus. Dusclops might have better defences which makes it better in the long run but Cofagrigus still works better as a Mienshao counter. This is because it has enough special attack to use Hex efficiently and has the Mummy ability that will prevent Mienshao from healing through Regenerator. Golurk resists fighting, bug and rock. However ghost types should still be careful of Mienshao that carry Me First.</p>

<p>Scizor works great as it has access to Bullet Punch, allowing it to strike first and Pursuit, catching Mienshao while it is switching back in.</p>

[Dream World]

<p>Mienshao's Dream World ability is Reckless, which gives it only a more powerful Hi Jump Kick (130 to 156) and Jump Kick (100 to 120) and this is risky considering you will lose 60% of your HP. Another reason not to use it is that there are many good ghost types there out there and let us not forget to mention priority moves. To be honest, Regenerator is what makes Mienshao special, end of story.</p>

<p>Dream world competitive wise, Shadow Tag Chandelure is Mienshao's best friend and worst enemy. Chandelure's ability prevents escape and unless Mienshao has U-Turn or a move that is super effective against Chandelure (which are usually too weak to use), it is done for. On the other hand, Chandelure can block Rapid Spin and traps the foe to finish them off.</p>
 
#4
- Nattorei is not a Kojondo counter. It is weak to its 130 base power 90% accurate STAB move.

- I think you should have a dedicated Swords Dance set and put Reversal in OO. Priority and sandstorm is everywhere, but Kojondo has none.

- I think Fake Out deserves a mention on the Choice set, if not to just get a free hit if you mispredict. You can also revenge things with it.
 
#5
Kojondo should really use Hi Jump Kick as its main Fighting type option. Also, Hidden Power Ghost is much better, since you actually get a perfect coverage with it + Hi Jump Kick. If it's being used as a mixed sweeper, Stone Edge is better, since you hit Flying pokemon harder.

Reversal set is quite hard with Kojondo. It should be something like:
-Reversal
-Substitute / Endure
-Stone Edge
-Swords Dance
item: Salac Berry / Liechi Berry
 
#10
Why does first set say: 4 HP EVs and then drops off HP IVs to even them? Just put those 4 to either Defence stat.
I stated that why.

Kojondo should really use Hi Jump Kick as its main Fighting type option. Also, Hidden Power Ghost is much better, since you actually get a perfect coverage with it + Hi Jump Kick. If it's being used as a mixed sweeper, Stone Edge is better, since you hit Flying pokemon harder.

Reversal set is quite hard with Kojondo. It should be something like:
-Reversal
-Substitute / Endure
-Stone Edge
-Swords Dance
item: Salac Berry / Liechi Berry
No, dark hits everything ghost can and isn't resisted by normal types. I took your advice and put Rock Slide in the optional changes section. I made 2 Reversal sets, one with Swords Dance, the other without.

- Nattorei is not a Kojondo counter. It is weak to its 130 base power 90% accurate STAB move.

- I think you should have a dedicated Swords Dance set and put Reversal in OO. Priority and sandstorm is everywhere, but Kojondo has none.

- I think Fake Out deserves a mention on the Choice set, if not to just get a free hit if you mispredict. You can also revenge things with it.
Took these points into consideration.

Desukaan is a perfect counter to it too,
Immune to fighting (high jump kick etc.) and normal (Fake out)
Really high def
Ability to burn
How could I forget?
 
#11
Just a niptick:

SpD is Special Defence. It may confuse some readers (confused me).

Also, in Team Options, Sazandora or any other good Dark pokémon make a good partner because of their ability of switching into most Ghosts and Psychics. Kojondo can also take the Bug moves aimed to them.
 
#12
Just a niptick:

SpD is Special Defence. It may confuse some readers (confused me).

Also, in Team Options, Sazandora or any other good Dark pokémon make a good partner because of their ability of switching into most Ghosts and Psychics. Kojondo can also take the Bug moves aimed to them.
Thank you but Sazandora? I find Umbreon works much better.
 

Jirachee

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#14
No, dark hits everything ghost can and isn't resisted by normal types. I took your advice and put Rock Slide in the optional changes section. I made 2 Reversal sets, one with Swords Dance, the other without.
Actually, Ghost is better, since Fight/Ghost is unresisted, and Dark/Fight is resisted by Heracross and Toxicroak. HJK or Aura Sphere hits Normal types for super effective damage, so they aren't a problem.
 
#16
Actually, Ghost is better, since Fight/Ghost is unresisted, and Dark/Fight is resisted by Heracross and Toxicroak. HJK or Aura Sphere hits Normal types for super effective damage, so they aren't a problem.
Agreed. Once released, Shadow Tag Shandera will be a perfect teammate to Kojondo.

Staying on topic, how about a lead set with Taunt?
 
#18
Why does first set say: 4 HP EVs and then drops off HP IVs to even them? Just put those 4 to either Defence stat.
Yes, this.

Since this is most commonly competitively played in a simulator (sure there might be people who use these sets over Wi-fi on their DSes), you can assume that each Poké automatically has perfect IVs.

With 31 IVs and no EVs, Kojondo has 271 HP, an odd number, so there's no need for applying 4 HP EVs and then changing the IVs. Just slap those 4 EVs somewhere else.

Inner Focus prevents you from flinching from surprise Fake Outs
A bit curious about this one, on the Swords Dance/Reversal set. Say another Kojondo, who is still at full health, comes in and uses Fake Out (iirc with max Attack it does around 35%). Since you don't flinch, you can proceed to Swords Dance or attack it immediately. You, however, lose your Focus Sash, and with Kojondo's frailness, are likely to be KOed by another move.

I doubt you'd be able to KO the other Kojondo if it's at full health, since out of the few options, Payback is NVE, Stone Edge is NVE, Fake Out won't work, and Reversal won't be as powerful as it should be. And since you lost the sash, you'll have a harder time getting Kojondo into a good range for Reversal to become serious business.

Regeneration can help retain the sash if you've been afflicted by Sandstorm or Stealth Rock and can get rid of those conditions before switching Kojondo in again, via a spinner or weathermon of your own.

Although if there is a reason behind Inner Focus on the Reversal set, please let me know. By no means am I an expert at this, so I might be missing a few things that other people have thought of. :P
 
#19
Yes, this.

Since this is most commonly competitively played in a simulator (sure there might be people who use these sets over Wi-fi on their DSes), you can assume that each Poké automatically has perfect IVs.

With 31 IVs and no EVs, Kojondo has 271 HP, an odd number, so there's no need for applying 4 HP EVs and then changing the IVs. Just slap those 4 EVs somewhere else.

A bit curious about this one, on the Swords Dance/Reversal set. Say another Kojondo, who is still at full health, comes in and uses Fake Out (iirc with max Attack it does around 35%). Since you don't flinch, you can proceed to Swords Dance or attack it immediately. You, however, lose your Focus Sash, and with Kojondo's frailness, are likely to be KOed by another move.
Good point and such was taken into consideration.
Wrong. It's actually a bad idea since Gravity disallows Hi Jump Kick (if Bulbapedia is right, of course...). If wanting something to raise its accuracy, put Wide Lens in the Optional changes section.
Taken into consideration.
Agreed. Once released, Shadow Tag Shandera will be a perfect teammate to Kojondo.

Staying on topic, how about a lead set with Taunt?
Made one!

The only problem I have now is that this is dreadfully long.
 
#20
Hey these are great sets, nice job.

But this is a little long. I think to cut down on the number of sets, a few should be combined. For example, the Substitute SD set and the normal SD set can be combined easily. I'd just slash Substitute in. Also, the Reversal set can probably be removed. There is a large emphasis on priority and a lot of residual damage this gen, so Reversal may not work too well.
 
#21
There shouldn't be two sd sets, and definitely shouldn't be three sets based off reversal. One SD set should suffice, and hi jump kick should be the main option on that set too, with reversal in OC, its far inferior.

Taunt also doesn't need a seperate set, it can simply get slashed in the LO set.

I don't see any reason to use the mixed set, Kojondo has a far higher Base Atk and i don't see any benefits of using its SpA attack counterparts
 
#22
There shouldn't be two sd sets, and definitely shouldn't be three sets based off reversal. One SD set should suffice, and hi jump kick should be the main option on that set too, with reversal in OC, its far inferior.

Taunt also doesn't need a seperate set, it can simply get slashed in the LO set.

I don't see any reason to use the mixed set, Kojondo has a far higher Base Atk and i don't see any benefits of using its SpA attack counterparts
echoing these sentiments

you really only need 3 sets, all out attacker (lead or life orb), swords dance and choice. no point in taking a move that should be in other options and making an entire set out of it.
 
#23
But this is a little long. I think to cut down on the number of sets, a few should be combined. For example, the Substitute SD set and the normal SD set can be combined easily. I'd just slash Substitute in. Also, the Reversal set can probably be removed. There is a large emphasis on priority and a lot of residual damage this gen, so Reversal may not work too well.
There shouldn't be two sd sets, and definitely shouldn't be three sets based off reversal. One SD set should suffice, and hi jump kick should be the main option on that set too, with reversal in OC, its far inferior.

Taunt also doesn't need a seperate set, it can simply get slashed in the LO set.

I don't see any reason to use the mixed set, Kojondo has a far higher Base Atk and i don't see any benefits of using its SpA attack counterparts
Thank you so much for all the feedback! Everything was taken into consideration and the rest was put into Optional Changes.

Thank you so much! TT_TT
 

Jackal

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#24
I feel like this guy is severely underrated as a baton passer, as regeneration is just amazing and sets him apart. Ive been using this guy on the ladder and he tears shit up. Regeneration basically means you get a free sub, as once you BP he gets it back. He outspeeds plenty of things, so if they switch out while you sub you basically get to pass a sub to whatever you want for free, which is phenomenal. He also provides SD and can hit incredibly hard in his own right.

It is easy to switch in on dark moves from darkrai/the new dark/dragon thing etc and force them to switch out, and it also works really well as a lead. SD as they stealth rock (they will expect you to fake out) and all of a sudden they are in trouble as you can sub, straight out bp or attack.

[SET]
name: Baton Passer
move 1: Hi Jump Kick
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Swords Dance
move 4: Baton Pass
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
ability: Regeneration
EVs: 252 ATK, 4 DEF, 252 SPE
 
#25
I feel like this guy is severely underrated as a baton passer, as regeneration is just amazing and sets him apart. Ive been using this guy on the ladder and he tears shit up. Regeneration basically means you get a free sub, as once you BP he gets it back. He outspeeds plenty of things, so if they switch out while you sub you basically get to pass a sub to whatever you want for free, which is phenomenal. He also provides SD and can hit incredibly hard in his own right.
I put Baton Pass in the optional changes section because many others can do similar. Also, I want to keep it to a maximum of 3 sets.