M&M Mix and Mega Resources

#76
VR noms!
Thundurus to C
I haven't seen Thundurus in a long time, and when I've tried it it has been extremely underwhelming. I would much rather use Tapu Koko if I wanted a fast Electric-type, and one of Xurkitree or Raikou if I wanted more power. Thundurus simply seems outclassed at the moment, as it doesn't even have its old Lopunnite set (Superpower + Thunderbolt allowed it to defeat SkarmBliss with ease). Its only unique set would be some mediocre MMX stallbreaker set that tries to be that Lopunnite set, but less effectively, and still walled by Zapdos. Thundurus is simply not very good right now, which is why I believe it should be dropped to C Rank.
eXCUSE ME?!?!?!?!?!

Thundurus is such an insanely good mon in mnm and it is so sad that you think it deserves to drop to c because of its Lopunnite set. The whole point for using Thundurus is having a fast and powerful mon that doesn't have to be worried about being walled by defensive switchins such as Blissey or Pdon due to nasty plot and focus blast combined with Pidgeotite.

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 269-317 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 406-478 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are easy 2hkos on the two most prominent specially defensive walls in the meta, something that is very hard to accomplish for offensive special attackers. Against pdon all thund needs to do is get some damage off via a non boosted focus blast on a forced switchin to secure a kill from +2 later on in the match. Against Blissey Thund can just np up in its face and get rid of it thus opening up a hole for other non boosting offensive threats such as Genesect or Xerneas.

252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaurite Zapdos: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
???
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sablenite Zapdos: 180-213 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
??????
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 147-174 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
?????????

The +60 s.atk boost combined with no guard high base power moves combined with nasty plot allows Thundurus to invalidate a lot of balance/stall builds just because it can boost past the s.def walls that would stop any other special boosting threat. It is just too strong for those types of teams to handle without dedicating a slot to a fast revenger such as Weavile or Tapu Koko. Yes Tapu Koko and other threats such as Pideotite Shaymin-Sky and Absolite Manphy outspeed it but Thund is still fast enough to outspeed threats such as Pidgeotite Gengar, Lucarionite Tapu Lele, Lucarionite Keldeo or Terrakion and all Arceus forms. Its speed tier isn't the fastest in the meta, but it is still very fast for a non Absol/Metagrossite user and can outspeed the majority of the stuff it needs to. stuff it needs to. Besides it doesn't die to unboosted ice beam from Absolite Manaphy...

252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 226-268 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile Shaymin-Sky has to hope for an air slash flinch, seed flare s.def drop or get its health whittled by substitute in order to beat Thundurus. The fact that it has the very good (while not top top level) speed tier combined with its boosted or even non boosted strength is what sets it apart from Xurkitree/Raikou in speed and Koko in power. It is very obvious that you haven't used Thundurus recently and I suggest you use it soon to refresh your memory.

DO NOT DROP THUNDURUS TO C

INSTEAD...

RAISE IT UP TO A+


Edit: if A+ is too high then move it to A but no way is it A-
 
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#77
eXCUSE ME?!?!?!?!?!

Thundurus is such an insanely good mon in mnm and it is so sad that you think it deserves to drop to c because of its Lopunnite set. The whole point for using Thundurus is having a fast and powerful mon that doesn't have to be worried about being walled by defensive switchins such as Blissey or Pdon due to nasty plot and focus blast combined with Pidgeotite.

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 269-317 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 406-478 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are easy 2hkos on the two most prominent specially defensive walls in the meta, something that is very hard to accomplish for offensive special attackers. Against pdon all thund needs to do is get some damage off via a non boosted focus blast on a forced switchin to secure a kill from +2 later on in the match. Against Blissey Thund can just np up in its face and get rid of it thus opening up a hole for other non boosting offensive threats such as Genesect or Xerneas.

252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaurite Zapdos: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
???
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sablenite Zapdos: 180-213 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
??????
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 147-174 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
?????????

The +60 s.atk boost combined with no guard high base power moves combined with nasty plot allows Thundurus to invalidate a lot of balance/stall builds just because it can boost past the s.def walls that would stop any other special boosting threat. It is just too strong for those types of teams to handle without dedicating a slot to a fast revenger such as Weavile or Tapu Koko. Yes Tapu Koko and other threats such as Pideotite Shaymin-Sky and Absolite Manphy outspeed it but Thund is still fast enough to outspeed threats such as Pidgeotite Gengar, Lucarionite Tapu Lele, Lucarionite Keldeo or Terrakion and all Arceus forms. Its speed tier isn't the fastest in the meta, but it is still very fast for a non Absol/Metagrossite user and can outspeed the majority of the stuff it needs to. stuff it needs to. Besides it doesn't die to unboosted ice beam from Absolite Manaphy...

252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 226-268 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile Shaymin-Sky has to hope for an air slash flinch, seed flare s.def drop or get its health whittled by substitute in order to beat Thundurus. The fact that it has the very good (while not top top level) speed tier combined with its boosted or even non boosted strength is what sets it apart from Xurkitree/Raikou in speed and Koko in power. It is very obvious that you haven't used Thundurus recently and I suggest you use it soon to refresh your memory.

DO NOT DROP THUNDURUS TO C

INSTEAD...

RAISE IT UP TO A+


Edit: if A+ is too high then move it to A but no way is it A-
thundurus for d rank tbh

just so this isnt a pure shitpost InfernapeTropius11 add vaporeon/umbreon to wish support

also make a new pidgeotite category w/ xurk thundy mew deos etc etc imo, that isnt there yet

fuck you for making me post.
 
#79
I hope you are just jking about raising it to A
Chloe said on discord that she didnt like A+ so I edited in the last bit but I seriously think it's A+ rank material. If you look at the A rank it has Groundceus (which I don't think should even be that high in the first place), Blissey, Deo-s, Manaphy, and non complete Zygarde. Personally I think that having the ability to blow through bulky, slower teams with just 1 boost and or some prior damage while also having 397 speed and such a crazy damage output even when unboosted meaning that it is still fantastic vs offense too puts it on the level of Golisopod, Kartana, Pdon (which really should be S rank imo), Weavile and Zapdos. But that is just my opinion and it takes more than just one person to change the rank of a mon.
 
#81
Personally, I think Absolite Salazzle should be rated C or B- (B Minus)rank on the viability ranking. The one huge issue with it is that it can't even take resisted hits very well, and almost any form of non-glaciate priority kills it, and it cannot reliably deal with rock types such as Lucarionite Terrakion. However, it mitigates these weaknesses by dealing extreme damage to whatever switches in that doesn't resist both stabs, and it can carry dragon pulse as coverage (Albiet a weak one, only good for pummeling dragons). It can use HP Ground to deal more damage to rock types and OHKO Red Orb Raikou, as well as deal consistent damage to Primal Groudon on the switch in, or it can use Nasty Plot to potentially break through Sablenite Blissey (Although Seismic Toss does 3HKO it) or capitalize on the opponent using stealth rocks, or when they use other utility moves. Absolite prevents it from being paralyzed, and makes it a good check to hazard setters/status spammers not using pidgeotite zap cannon, if it can predict the rocks and avoid being attacked. It also performs several key roles few other Pokémon can, such as OHKOing Tapu Koko (Non Absolite)/Tapu Lele/Shaymin Sky (Non Absolite) without fail, and outspeeding them. At full health it can probably even take out Absolite Shaymin Sky, providing Air Slash doesn't crit or flinch, as it can live an Air Slash from Absolite Shaymin Sky, while at full health. It does suffer from a major bulk issue, the inability to survive even the weakest of ground type attacks, a very common move type in most metagames, being able to easily be OHKOd by aqua jet from Blue Orb Golisopod, and very poor bulk overall (Pidgeotite Shaymin Sky's Seed Flare is 4x resisted by Salazzle and does around 35-40% to it), but the extreme amount of speed and power, along with access to STAB Sludge Wave and Fire Blast, makes it a viable option for any team struggling with a way to reliably and easily kill Shaymin Sky, Tapu Koko, and Tapu Lele, among other potential threats.

TL:DR Salazzle is beyond frail, but packs a considerable punch at a very large speed tier, and is able to OHKO many prominent threats in the current Mix and Mega Metagame.

Here is a replay showing off some of Salazzle's power against many legitimate and potent threats in the current Mix and Mega metagame., almost like a showcase of its power (This was a ladder match, so none of this was setup up, but all natural). I wish it also died here, so I could show off the considerably poor bulk it has, but unfortunately, it did not die.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-578689168

Wish I could post more replays, but this is all I have at the moment.
 
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#82
Chloe said on discord that she didnt like A+ so I edited in the last bit but I seriously think it's A+ rank material. If you look at the A rank it has Groundceus (which I don't think should even be that high in the first place), Blissey, Deo-s, Manaphy, and non complete Zygarde. Personally I think that having the ability to blow through bulky, slower teams with just 1 boost and or some prior damage while also having 397 speed and such a crazy damage output even when unboosted meaning that it is still fantastic vs offense too puts it on the level of Golisopod, Kartana, Pdon (which really should be S rank imo), Weavile and Zapdos. But that is just my opinion and it takes more than just one person to change the rank of a mon.
Mjoera but the issue is Weavile will shut it down. This is thundurus, right? Flying/Electric. Fake out+Feint from Weavile shuts it down, and Weavile is very popular. Also, Magearna can shut it down by tanking the attacks and retaliating with moves like Ice Beam and Fleur Cannon. Also, Electric is a fairly common and well prepared for type in the Mix and Mega metagame, and we have multiple ground types like Primal Groudon and Ground-Type Arceus to wall it and remove it from play.
 
#83
Thundy is too fragile to take any hits or switch in. its speed is not that great with pidgeiotete, lots of ground mons like pdon just shut it down, many offensive mons outspeed it such as kart mane and weavile...it might do some awesome damage vs more bulkier pokes, but that fact that some of the most common mons can easily shut it down....giviing anything above B+ at max would be a jk
 
#84
Mjoera but the issue is Weavile will shut it down. This is thundurus, right? Flying/Electric. Fake out+Feint from Weavile shuts it down, and Weavile is very popular. Also, Magearna can shut it down by tanking the attacks and retaliating with moves like Ice Beam and Fleur Cannon. Also, Electric is a fairly common and well prepared for type in the Mix and Mega metagame, and we have multiple ground types like Primal Groudon and Ground-Type Arceus to wall it and remove it from play.
The problem that thund usually faces is being forced out by an offensive check such as weav, manaphy or shaymin's grass whistle combined with a stealth rock weakness. Mag can take a hit from full but if it takes approx one unboosted thunder it dies to +2 thunder.

252 SpA Pidgeotite Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sablenite Magearna: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Pidgeotite Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sablenite Magearna: 240-283 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That is also assuming that it is full s.def sablenite mag taking the hit while mega evolved. Pdon and groundceus face a similar situation of if they take one unboosted focus blast they die to +2 focus blast.

252 SpA Pidgeotite Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 149-176 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Pidgeotite Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 298-351 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pidgeotite Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Pidgeotite Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 269-317 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The problem that thund faces is not defensive answers but more of how it has a difficult time dealing with its offensive checks and a stealth rock weakness that adds up really quickly with how many times it will probably be forced out. That is why thund is best saved as a later game sweeper/cleaner when its checks are weakened/gone/or in such a position that they cannot kill it i.e. manaphy can't outspeed if webs are up (a random example I know but you get the idea).
 
#85
Your issue is that you believe that Primal Groudon can't OHKO with Stone Edge, which can't miss cause No Guard, or that they'll let you setup freely, or that Magearna won't 2KHO you with Ice Beam/Fleur Cannon, and that they won't outspeed or outpredict you. The calcs on specially defensive Primal Groudon are useless because you still 2hko Pdon at +2 if it has no Spdef, and it can OHKO you with Stone Edge. You also can't outspeed numerous threats. 131 speed is enough to outspeed most low to mediocre speed threats with a Metagrossite/Absolite slapped on, but not enough to outspeed the faster threats. You also are restricting your calculations to 3 threats, 2 of which can easily and without a doubt OHKO you, and the other which can beat you unless it switches in on you nasty plotting. You won't have any time to nasty plot, anyways, because the large portion of the metagame is offensive and can beat you out because of your crap bulk combined with your only slightly above average speed (For a wallbreaker/sweeper, that is). Also, PP usage and stalling is a thing, and they can keep healing and wasting your Focus blast PP (8) and your Thunder PP (16), especially the Focus Blast one. And if you nasty plot they can punish that with free healing and retaliation. You also only have 1 STAB attack, which is bad for a Pokémon with only 2 viable moves it can use to attack with. I am not doubting its power, I am just doubting how much it gets to use that power before something KOs it. With proper play, you could maybe cripple an enemy Pokémon and make it near useless, but if the enemy is smart, I doubt you will actually get a KO. In light of this, I would say Thundurus should be in B, or better yet, stay in B-. It looks nice on paper, but is just too hard to maneuver with in actual play, without proper team support. Pokémon in the A rank are placed there because they are exceptional Pokémon even without team support. Thundurus couldn't work without team support built to help remove a certain check to it or give it an opportunity to use Nasty Plot.

By the way I would love if someone commented on my Salazzle idea.
 
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#86
Your issue is that you believe that Primal Groudon can't OHKO with Stone Edge, which can't miss cause No Guard, or that they'll let you setup freely, or that Magearna won't 2KHO you with Ice Beam/Fleur Cannon, and that they won't outspeed out or outpredict you. The calcs on specially defensive Primal Groudon are useless because you still 2hko Pdon at +2 if it has no Spdef, and it can OHKO you with Stone Edge. You also can't outspeed numerous threats. 131 speed is enough to outspeed most low to mediocre speed threats with a Metagrossite/Absolite slapped on, but not enough to outspeed the faster threats. You also are restricting your calculations to 3 threats, 2 of which can easily and without a doubt OHKO you, and the other which can beat you unless it switches in on you nasty plotting. You won't have any time to nasty plot, anyways, because the large portion of the metagame is offensive and can beat you out because of your crap bulk combined with your only slightly above average speed (For a wallbreaker/sweeper, that is). Also, PP usage and stalling is a thing, and they can keep healing and wasting your Focus blast PP (8) and your Thunder PP (16), especially the Focus Blast one. And if you nasty plot they can punish that with free healing and retaliation. You also only have 1 STAB attack, which is bad for a Pokémon with only 2 viable moves it can use to attack with. I am not doubting its power, I am just doubting how much it gets to use that power before something KOs it. With proper play, you could maybe cripple an enemy Pokémon and make it near useless, but if the enemy is smart, I doubt you will actually get a KO. In light of this, I would say Thundurus should be in B, or better yet, stay in B-. It looks nice on paper, but is just too hard to maneuver with in actual play, without proper team support. Pokémon in the A rank are placed there because they are exceptional Pokémon even without team support. Thundurus couldn't work without team support built to help remove a certain check to it or give it an opportunity to use Nasty Plot.

By the way I would love if someone commented on my Salazzle idea.
I'm not saying that pdon's edge won't kill, which it will. What I am saying is that you chip the pdon on its initial switchin with focus blast then switch out to kill it later with a +2 blast when you get the chance to np up. It's the same way with the other defensive checks that were mentioned except thund can afford to np up in groundceus' face since ice beam does 55 to 66. On the topic of pp usage, I have run dark pulse on thund this gen so it isn't walled by the likes of shedinja and giratina which while it is weaker vs other defensive answers, it does deal ok damage at +2 without having to use a thunder or focus blast pp. What thund excels at is taking advantage of or breaking the defensive backbone of a team. It comes and threatens the defensive backbone and thus forces your opp to either let the backbone take a big hit or have one of his offensive mons take the hit and possibly die to it. If you eliminate one part of the defensive backbone then one of the other mons on your team may be able to win once it gets in or if you get rid of one of your opp's offensive threats then your backbone won't have to deal with it for the rest of the game and might be unbreakable because of it. The thing that holds thund back currently is how offensively oriented teams are currently and how a good amount of them don't have a defensive backbone for thund to take advantage of, or even one at all. If the meta were a touch less offensive and featured more stall, balance or just regular offense teams then thund would be a much bigger threat than what it is currently. I don't know where you all want to place thund since it does its job so well but the current state of the meta doesn't favor it. I'll let you guys decide that for yourself, but I still believe that it definitely isn't something that you can sleep on at all.

No comment on salazzle
 
#87
eXCUSE ME?!?!?!?!?!

Thundurus is such an insanely good mon in mnm and it is so sad that you think it deserves to drop to c because of its Lopunnite set. The whole point for using Thundurus is having a fast and powerful mon that doesn't have to be worried about being walled by defensive switchins such as Blissey or Pdon due to nasty plot and focus blast combined with Pidgeotite.

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 269-317 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 406-478 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are easy 2hkos on the two most prominent specially defensive walls in the meta, something that is very hard to accomplish for offensive special attackers. Against pdon all thund needs to do is get some damage off via a non boosted focus blast on a forced switchin to secure a kill from +2 later on in the match. Against Blissey Thund can just np up in its face and get rid of it thus opening up a hole for other non boosting offensive threats such as Genesect or Xerneas.

252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaurite Zapdos: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
???
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sablenite Zapdos: 180-213 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
??????
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 147-174 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
?????????

The +60 s.atk boost combined with no guard high base power moves combined with nasty plot allows Thundurus to invalidate a lot of balance/stall builds just because it can boost past the s.def walls that would stop any other special boosting threat. It is just too strong for those types of teams to handle without dedicating a slot to a fast revenger such as Weavile or Tapu Koko. Yes Tapu Koko and other threats such as Pideotite Shaymin-Sky and Absolite Manphy outspeed it but Thund is still fast enough to outspeed threats such as Pidgeotite Gengar, Lucarionite Tapu Lele, Lucarionite Keldeo or Terrakion and all Arceus forms. Its speed tier isn't the fastest in the meta, but it is still very fast for a non Absol/Metagrossite user and can outspeed the majority of the stuff it needs to. stuff it needs to. Besides it doesn't die to unboosted ice beam from Absolite Manaphy...

252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 226-268 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile Shaymin-Sky has to hope for an air slash flinch, seed flare s.def drop or get its health whittled by substitute in order to beat Thundurus. The fact that it has the very good (while not top top level) speed tier combined with its boosted or even non boosted strength is what sets it apart from Xurkitree/Raikou in speed and Koko in power. It is very obvious that you haven't used Thundurus recently and I suggest you use it soon to refresh your memory.

DO NOT DROP THUNDURUS TO C

INSTEAD...

RAISE IT UP TO A+


Edit: if A+ is too high then move it to A but no way is it A-
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 403-475 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(a HP such as Ice is a 2HKO at +3, and Xurkitree can actually put PDon to sleep to land the 2HKO without worrying about PBlades, whereas Thundy has to worry about Edge, common atm bcz of Zapdos)

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Zap Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 454-535 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Xurkitree also 2HKOs Blissey

252 SpA Xurkitree Zap Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 178-211 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO
If Zapdos runs any sort of SpD investment (which some do for Skymin), Thundy fails to 2HKO, whereas Xurkitree has a good chance to 2HKO even max SpD Sablenite Zapdos (as shown) and it is obviously a guaranteed OHKO on any Zapdos after a single boost

So basically Xurkitree is better against the defensive portion of the metagame, 2HKOing or OHKOing everything that Thundy can 2HKO. I'll give you Xurk not outspeeding Terrak, Keld, and Lele, but Gengar is not too relevant atm due to Skymin being a better sleep abuser. Also, Xurk lives Absolite Keldeo Hydro Pump from full (252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Xurkitree: 259-306 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). It also still takes on Manaphy (252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Xurkitree: 163-193 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) much better than Thundurus.

It also takes on Tapu Koko (calcs in Electric Terrain):
Lucarionite:
252 SpA Adaptability Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Xurkitree: 196-232 (63.8 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Xurkitree Zap Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 298-351 (106 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Pidgeotite:
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Xurkitree: 186-220 (60.5 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Xurkitree Zap Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 270-318 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Basically I think the added power+sleep+quicker boosting of Xurkitree is more important than outspeeding a half a dozen mons, particularly as Thundurus still fails to hit 140, thus missing Manaphy, Kartana, Weavile, Skymin, and the like. The Stealth Rock weakness and inability to OHKO Groundceus/PDon is also quite annoying (especially as Groundceus has Recover). It doesn't have a great pre-Mega ability like Tapu Koko and it also doesn't have dual STAB (like Raikou and Tapu Koko) and its strongest move (on a neutral target) is the weakest initially:

252 SpA Xurkitree Zap Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 313-370 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 316-373 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 240-283 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thundurus is decent enough, but it's generally outclassed in every role (setup by Xurkitree, pure initial power by Raikou, speed by Koko), and its only niche is a compression of these, but it just doesn't make the cut at any one of them (it needs perfect prediction and multiple switchins to wear down stuff like PDon, leaving it lacking in the sweeping category; it doesn't have too great initial power, as shown in calc above; and it doesn't have the speed to outpace many top threats). There is no way in hell it belongs anywhere near the A ranks, it should be in C or B- (I'd obviously prefer C).


As for Salazzle, I considered using it a while ago but it is fairly mediocre. It only really beats fast, frail things (by being a faster thing) that are weak to its STABs or 4x weak to its coverage (basically limited to Tapu Koko/Lele, Weavile, Skymin, and Raikou) and can't switch in on anything. It might see more use following the Altarianite release but for now it just isn't spectacular, so I'd say no higher than C.
 
#88
Well half of Salazzle's use is to kill those things you mentioned, which can help balance teams cope better against Hyper Offensive threats, or help Hyper Offensive teams fight of other ones of their caliber. The other half is the standard of hammering people to death with high powered STABs off of a high Spattk and Speed. I said for it to be C or B- because of its niche allowing teams that suffer from facing certain fast and powerful Pokémon, especially ones that are pretty popular. I didn't say for it to be higher because I know it can't stay in versus most tanks unless they have been worn down. It's less of a wallbreaker and more of a wallbreaker-breaker.
 
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#90
Role compendium:
Defog: the bulky gira, ground arc, Latias
Rapid spin: Avalugg, Exca
U-turn: Lando (the one with inti)
Z-move: zygarde
Gene checks: water arc, skarm (vena stone)
-ate checks: skarm
Hoopa checks: Crobat
Manaphy check: shed
Sablenite: skarm, Latias
Blue orb: ferro, cele
Red orb: cress, scizor
Venasourite: skarm, hippo, togge
Pinsirite: salamence
Salamencite: salamence
Glalite: Kartana
Gyaradosite: Crobat, toxa
There is prob a bunch more but I didn't bother thinking about it more.most are self explanatory so I didn't give explanation...also u guys should add all the new stone user for pidgeoite and etc
E: why the hell is shed B? It needs an incredible amount of support for it to use its full potential..I would give it a c+ tops
 
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#91
Mantine (Audinite) from unraked to B+ 85/40/110/100/180/70
Mantine is actually an incredibly bulky poke with an amazing typing thanks to Audinite, and has access to Defog/scald/roost/haze/toxic and ice beam//p much all the essential moves u require for a wall. With max def, its arguebly one of the best mixed wall in the game capable of walling: Goli, Weavile, Bulky pdon(even offensive if u switch in on a ground attach), Zygarde, Mimkyu(thanks to haze), Manaphy (it's able to haze and recover but cant do much to it(also 4x ice beam doesnt ohko its regural form even without any sp def investment :])), pretty much any CM arcs and support arc thanks to its 400 sp def(without investment) and haze, yveltal, xern(kinda, like a 1 time haze user if its about to sweep u), volcarano, entei, keldeo, latios, scizor, and a few more but i cant think of all of em rn from the top of my head. i would prob suggest a A- but only nomming to B+ atm.

ALSO: imma once again ask cause no one seems to know the answers. Why the hell is Shed B? i would give it a C or C+ TOPS, cause the ammount of support is requires is just too much
 
#92
nominating Blaziken from unranked to B.

Protect + Speed Boost allows Blaziken with lucarionite to reach 455 speed, outsped only by Deo-S and absolite koko. A decent attack stat then allows significant damage with adaptability boosted HJK's and flare blitzes. example:
252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 700-824 (98 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 234-276 (58 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

SD gives it a one-turn attack and speed setup on most walls, and at +2 almost nothing will survive a high jump kick:

+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 600-708 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (from full hp)

for a fourth move it can typically run edge to counter zapdos, or brave bird to lure and kill golisopod. It can run multiple sets, such as metagrossite to get the speed edge over gyaradosite deo-s and all choice scarfers (Xern and lele come to mind) or its native stone itself, which was pretty dominant in ubers and has the advantage of being able to reuse speed boost after switching out. Blaziken's viability mainly suffers because of its weakness to aerilate-speed, which is pretty serious for a setup sweeper in this meta. I find it most effective as a late-game wincon, if you can eliminate your opponents atespeeders relatively early.




 
#93
nominating Terrakion to move up to A rank.

Whilst Terrakion is fairly difficult to switch in, it also finds itself in the position where not much else can switch into it. A lot of teams have to run dedicated checks to Terrakion in order not to get swept by it, for example, defensive Arceus-Ghost is used on some teams to check Terrakion as it cannot 2HKO it:
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Arceus-Ghost: 168-198 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Whilst Arceus-Ghost and Giratina-A give Terrakion a hard time, they find theirselves limiting teams as better options of an Arceus forme could be ran over Arceus-Ghost, and Giratina-A only finds itself viable on stall teams, making Arceus-Ghost the only real check for the majority of teams in MnM.
However, despite this, Terrakion has one massive selling point in the metagame that would make one mon almost unbreakable without setup:
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 612-724 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 612-724 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It is one of the very few Pokemon that can use Sablenite Blissey as setup fodder, as it will scare it out quite easily. However, it doesn't appreciate being inflicted with Toxic, and therefore it prefers to be switched in with a pivot, such as Zapdos or Magearna. This is what pushes its viability down - however, with Shaymin-Sky gone, Terrakion finds it easy to roam around the metagame without having the power of its Stone Edge significantly nerfed, as it is able to run Lucarionite without losing out on checking certain Pokemon. Here are a few calcs against common Pokemon in MnM:

252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 206-244 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 198-234 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 304-360 (79.3 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Sablenite)
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 140-166 (42 - 49.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Sablenite)
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 202-238 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Sablenite)

(Edited section for Aerilate survival - despite the fact that Aerilate spam is getting less common)
252+ Atk Aerilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 160-190 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 444-524 (124 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 163-193 (50.4 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 1208-1424 (426.8 - 503.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(End of Aerilate section)

And one more thing - one of the most common Pokemon in MnM, Golisopod, doesn't even check it!
252+ Atk Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion in Heavy Rain: 254-300 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 388-460 (109.6 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So, with this in mind, the incredible wallbreaking power that Terrakion provides for teams is incredible, especially with the rise in usage for Blissey. And therefore, I suggest that it should be moved up to A rank, with other wallbreaking staples, making it closer to Kartana.
 
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#95
#99
I'm surprised Rayquaza is completely absent from the viability rankings.

I get that it can't be as good as it is in standard due to the presence of Pinsirite Zygarde outclassing it at many things but Rayquaza certainly has a number of benefits that justify it being ranked.

  • Good mixed attacking stats
  • Excellent movepool
  • Outpaces the base 90 speed tier
  • One of the best offensive Golisopod switchins, and a decent Pdon switchin
The set I recommend is
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 176 Atk / 116 SpA / 216 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Extreme Speed
- Draco Meteor
- Surf

With moves other than Dragon Ascent and Surf being pretty flexible. V-Create, Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, Earthquake, all good moves. What makes it stand out is this calc.
116 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I would never claim it's a guaranteed switch-in (252 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 306-360 (87.6 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO) but to be frank many things are considered Pdon switch-ins and are murdered by Stone Edge (cough, Golisopod, cough)

Having used Rayquaza a bit I would say that it fits well in the B's, probably not B+. But I have not exhausted all its potential sets, and have stuck to varients of that one Life Orb set. I would be interested in seeing where other people think it should be ranked, but having it unranked it just unfair to our majestic Skysnake.

EDIT: While I'll agree with most of what Chazm says below and accept most of the corrections, I will stand by 116 spa evs on any set that runs Surf. OHKOing Pdon is one of the major reasons I would consider Ray.
 
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I would second this and say that Rayquaza should be moved from Unranked to B.

However, there are a few calcs that I think have been done incorrectly here - for example, the Groudon-Primal calc should be done at 240+ Atk for either Offensive Stealth Rock, Rock Polish or SubSD:
240+ Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 332-392 (95.1 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
This makes Rayquaza a very shaky switchin for Groudon-Primal at best - you must first scout for its set to be able to switch in Rayquaza freely. However, I can agree that it is probably the best Golisopod switchin there is.

Another thing I'd like to highlight is Rayquaza's ability to use V-create. Although it does sacrifice its ability to OHKO Groudon-Primal, most Rayquaza sets won't really be switching in in fear of Groudon-Primal carrying Stone Edge. So, I'd recommend this set as V-create can break through many walls that Rayquaza may not have been previously able to break without it.

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Extreme Speed / Surf
- Draco Meteor
- V-create / Extreme Speed / Surf

A few calcs on V-create and Draco Meteor against some mons that may be switching into Rayquaza that would otherwise wall it completely:
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 367-432 (100.8 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Sablenite Magearna)
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Magearna: 192-229 (52.7 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Venusaurite, disallows Magearna as a switchin)
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 255-302 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Sablenite)
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Skarmory: 133-159 (39.9 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Venusaurite, unfortunately fails to check - the DM calc for example:
40 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 144-170 (43.2 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO (Venusaurite))
Less important calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 309-365 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Pidgeotite)
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 165-195 (43 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO (Sablenite, despite Draco Meteor being more powerful, the use of this move disallows any Sablenite Zapdos a switchin)
40 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 199-235 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Sablenite. Whilst a roll, this does allow Rayquaza to deal with a mon that is capable of walling most of the tier.)

Whilst V-create may not deal with many more checks than Dragon Ascent would do normally, the amount of Pokemon it does check just by clicking the move makes it an incredible wallbreaker, that in my mind, warrants more of a slot than Surf. As Drampa said, whilst it may be outclassed with its Dragon Dance sets, its mixed set allows it to power through walls and gain momentum by abusing the abundance of Golisopod in the meta. Even without that, it can still give many Pokemon a tough time switching in, and it may even invalidate their Orb based strategies. However, I do doubt that it will get any higher than B, and the Altarianite stone may make its job harder than it is at the moment. And whilst it can check Groudon-Primal itself, the usage of offensive sets carrying Stone Edge make Rayquaza's job difficult to carry out in checking Groudon-Primal - and even then, the defensive set could pull off a burn and extinguish its excellent physical attack combined with its amazing movepool, making it much easier to switch in and recover the damage.